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The quality of communities has dropped since WoW (a tirade)

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by Vigiliance Its just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
    Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.

     

    Now accept that and move on.


     


    It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.

    You seem to think that none of these companies do market research to find out what the people most likely to play their games actually want.  They spend a lot of money finding out the most desired aspects of a game, then they build their game to suit the majority of players in order to increase their potential income.  Your side has been making the claim that things will change, wait and see, since WoW came out.  You're still wrong.

     

    Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.  Giving players what they want on an individual level despite being a failure as a whole.  At least a failure in holding players and subscriptions.   They saw WoWs success.  They reimaged the game with their own ideas or IP.  They attempted to do it better since obvious trend of ease and accessibility is what players poll for.   Players meanwhile get bored and blow through easy rehashed WoW content.  Subscriptions dry up after a strong start.  Without the odd trend of being able to subsidize the games through the minority(cash shops) most of these games would have fallen flat on their face.  

     

    We have differing opinions that blindly chasing a dream of WoW means the trend is what players want.  We have differing opinions that quest hub games created as easy cash shop traps that majority of the players opinion don't matter is what most players want.  Likely the trend is the safe one and the one of having a potential WoW which the boards who fund MMO's likely push on the companies.  

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Vigiliance

    Everyone is stuck in the here and now. No one can say what the future will bring. Will that future come in 6 months, a year, 2 years? Certainly the trends that are in place now are easy to see but that won't last forever. Things change whether they like them or not.

    Eventually the instant gratification and solo centric game play elements that are a hit now will fall to the wayside and things will change. Does that mean everything is going to go back to the days of EQ and Vanilla WoW... certainly not but you'd be a fool to think that solo centric MMO's will forever keep selling. People will tire of this style and inevitably want something different. Just like with what happened with old classic MMO's. It'll be solo centric game play's turn to cry in the corner and rage on forums within  a few years (if that).

    That is all.

     

    It is not very helpful trying to anticipate entertainment in 2 years. Who knows? 2-3 years ago, no one can predict MOBA to be big. No one can predict WiiU is going to flop.

    What is really known is the current trend today .. solo-centric, non-world gamepplay with F2P.

    In a few years, i doubt i would even be playing MMOs. If this type of gameplay dies, there are always other entertainment.

  • LeGrosGamerLeGrosGamer Member UncommonPosts: 223
    Originally posted by Piechunks

    I wasn't born yesterday. I realize the first MMOs were text-based and played them. I played EQ as well (didn't like it, but I wouldn't disparage another for liking it), but preferred other MMOs that came out shortly afterward.

    The one trend that has disturbed me the most is that people have become a lot dumber, impatient and hostile if you were to compare a randomly selected sample to that of the "vanilla" days of WoW.

    It pains me somewhat to relay anecdotal evidence as if it were gospel, but my foray into GW2 has shown me just how prevalent the problem is among modern MMO gamers:

     

    1. There is no more patience to ensure "quality" runs to the point of ruin. 
     
    Have a phone call? You had better not pick it up, or your party who is completely unwilling to wait for anything will attempt the boss if you're not back by the 30 second mark and wipe.
     
    Have a slow computer? You had better not attempt to play with a party, because that marginal minute they have to wait before beginning the instance is an eternity.
     
    Are you completely new to an instance? You had better not attempt it, because there is 0 willingness to type out in detail, or even communicate through VOIP what to do and how to do it.
     
    2. There is no more willingness to accept personal blame, but blame is to be doled out to others.
     
    Did somebody pull a mob by accident and get himself killed while trying to keep up with the group? That very person will most likely go on a tirade about the group not tending to him, but will later refuse to resurrect a fellow team member after a boss event, since he had finished and no longer had any need for the group.
     
    I can't count how many times somebody has asked the group to kick another for doing the very same mistake she/he did many times before, or after the fact.
     
    3. There is no desire, or ability to figure things out independently: guides must be sought after, followed to the letter and obeyed at all times.
     
    It's very amusing when you see a group try and figure something out for the first time; even if you try and assist, or even manage to figure it out in due time, the remainder of the group tends to wander around like chickens with their heads cut off, simply because they do not have a guide, or are completely unwilling to try and learn new things.
     
    It's quite infuriating when you see people with "suboptimal" specs get berated/excluded due to group ignorance: if something cannot be reduced to a binary variable, it is simply not considered. You are either "good", or "bad" with nothing in between, since things can never be considered in situational detail.
     
    4. A lack of empathy and "antisocial" behavior
     
    I know it's somewhat ironic to use antisocial when talking about an MMO, but nowadays people are so selfish and so unwilling to even spare a mere second to help out a random player who needs it, it equates to negligence to the point of malice.
     
    Not to mention that people will rarely attempt to socialize with people outside of their guild, or even engage in idle chatter without some sort of game-economic impetus behind it. In fact, a lot of the things I took for granted in older games, like EQ (and now WoW) are simply defunct; if the game doesn't hold guild specific events, you can forget about ever doing them. 
     
    If you want to find a group of people who are even willing to help you with something you cannot complete yourself, you will more often than not find no assistance outside of your circle, regardless of how many people are in your particular instance, or have disposable time.
     
     
    I realize that this post serves as nothing more than a means of venting my frustrations, but I have to ask whoever managed to get through of all of that one question:
     
    if people behave so awfully in-game and the point of playing a MMO is to interact with these people, then why even bother?
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

     

     

    That's why I only play P2P MMORPG's, best communities ever.   Stop playing the kiddies F2P MMO's and man/woman up to a P2P model. :)          Been a P2P player since 94 and will die a P2P player. :)

  • PiechunksPiechunks Member Posts: 136
    Originally posted by marsh9799

    I still remember a Hunter from Vanilla WoW.  His name was Excallibur.  He was the dumbest and worst players ever.  There was a Warrior named Pdog.  He didn't do the warrior quest for defensive stance ever.  You didn't group with them.  No one grouped with them.  I had my list of good players I liked to group with and it was expansive.  You had to form groups- it was nice to have a large list to pull from.

     

     

    Wait a second... was Excallibur a dwarf hunter and pdog a nightelf warrior? Holy crap, their suckage was really that legendary.... I remember farming them on a PvP server as horde. Great times. Hilariously great.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by LeGrosGamer

     

    1. There is no more patience to ensure "quality" runs to the point of ruin. 
     
    Have a phone call? You had better not pick it up, or your party who is completely unwilling to wait for anything will attempt the boss if you're not back by the 30 second mark and wipe.
     
    Have a slow computer? You had better not attempt to play with a party, because that marginal minute they have to wait before beginning the instance is an eternity.
     
    Are you completely new to an instance? You had better not attempt it, because there is 0 willingness to type out in detail, or even communicate through VOIP what to do and how to do it.
     

    Of course there is no patience. We are talking about playing games here.

    If my wife yells "dinner", i am out of the game. That is 100x more important than playing some online games.

    If my phone rings, i am "pausing" a game to get it. However, i do not want to wait for anyone else .. cause that is wasting my time. The conflict is unresolvable ... and so sometimes solo is the best solution.

     

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.


    If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.

    BTw, Ceph and Nari, I don't read your posts. Just an FYI.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.

     


    If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.

     

    Wrong assumption. Given that marketing research firms like newszoo is doing analysis, and selling such, on the MMO market every year, shows that there is a market. Hence there are companies spending money on buy marketing research.

     

  • DrCokePepsiDrCokePepsi Member UncommonPosts: 177
    Sir, i completely agree with you. I've been through the tough times with AC2 and SWG, have played Asheron's Call, Runescape and, (unfortunately) WoW. I played WoW during Cataclysm, as i got into it after my trial i developed my main up to 85, not even into raiding material realised what a dump WoW was, and up-and-left. Same happened to Runescape, although runescape has just become a complete dump. It used to be unique now it's just a failure. SWG has unfortunately closed, Asheron's Call is still strong and fun, the community still great but slimming :( and AC2 made a completely random return that i still have mixed feelings about. 

    Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
    just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
    and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
    Thank you for your patience.
  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by gessekai332

    casual players dont have time to invest in online communities and friends, and thats who developers are targetting these days.

    On the other hand: those same casual players who play for fun are terribly annoyed with the elitist self entitled hardcore players' attitude that everyone should devote their playtime to them.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Member Posts: 848

    During the FFXIV beta I was fighting a mob and taking damage.

     

    A random stranger threw me a heal and a buff.

     

    After the fight I /say Thank you

     

    Stranger /say You're welcome

     

    Community seemed fine to me.

  • isslingissling Member UncommonPosts: 162

    Gearscore and all the other stuff has maybe turned some good people into raging crazy people. I have had complete strangers yell at me in a battlegrounds for not noticing that someone was attacking them. When you can't see someone face to face they think they can say anything to you:(

    Everything is instant gratification now and if your not in the loop you will be stepped on.:(

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.

     


    If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.

     

    Wrong assumption. Given that marketing research firms like newszoo is doing analysis, and selling such, on the MMO market every year, shows that there is a market. Hence there are companies spending money on buy marketing research.

     

    Hey, he doesn't read what we have to say, he's not interested in reality, he wants to live in his own little fantasy world.

    Fine by me.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Arclan  

    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.
      If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.  
    Wrong assumption. Given that marketing research firms like newszoo is doing analysis, and selling such, on the MMO market every year, shows that there is a market. Hence there are companies spending money on buy marketing research.  
    Hey, he doesn't read what we have to say, he's not interested in reality, he wants to live in his own little fantasy world.

    Fine by me.



    He has a point though. MMO market research wouldn't exist if somebody wasn't buying it.

    **

    It's not just one man operations like NewZoo either. There are four or five different companies doing MMORPG and MMO market research just on the first page of Google.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Arclan  

    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.
      If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.  
    Wrong assumption. Given that marketing research firms like newszoo is doing analysis, and selling such, on the MMO market every year, shows that there is a market. Hence there are companies spending money on buy marketing research.  
    Hey, he doesn't read what we have to say, he's not interested in reality, he wants to live in his own little fantasy world.

     

    Fine by me.



    He has a point though. MMO market research wouldn't exist if somebody wasn't buying it.

    **

    It's not just one man operations like NewZoo either. There are four or five different companies doing MMORPG and MMO market research just on the first page of Google.

     

    You are talking about Arclan, right? I am sure Cephus404 is also talking about him.

    And i agree. Arclan ignored data, and the whole industry of gaming analytics. But as i say before, it is his prerogative to put his head in the sand. But i am under no obligation not to talk about facts.

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Arclan  

    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Honestly, I think doing marketing research is exactly why some of the decisions have been made.
      If SWTOR didn't spend any of its huge budget on market research, it is safe to assume no other game companies are doing it either.  
    Wrong assumption. Given that marketing research firms like newszoo is doing analysis, and selling such, on the MMO market every year, shows that there is a market. Hence there are companies spending money on buy marketing research.  
    Hey, he doesn't read what we have to say, he's not interested in reality, he wants to live in his own little fantasy world.

     

    Fine by me.



    He has a point though. MMO market research wouldn't exist if somebody wasn't buying it.

    **

    It's not just one man operations like NewZoo either. There are four or five different companies doing MMORPG and MMO market research just on the first page of Google.

     

    You are talking about Arclan, right? I am sure Cephus404 is also talking about him.

    And i agree. Arclan ignored data, and the whole industry of gaming analytics. But as i say before, it is his prerogative to put his head in the sand. But i am under no obligation not to talk about facts.

     

    Of course I was talking about Arclan.  Like so many people around here, they don't care about the facts, they find ways to explain away the data, they just want their little fantasy gaming universe to exist and if it doesn't, they cannot accept it and move on, they have to make more excuses for why it should.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

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