Actually, more modern games have better mechanisms to keep annoying people at bay than old games like EQ, AC1 or UO. Nothing like fighting your way down a dungeon in EQ just to find the boss camped by 3 other guilds waiting for it to spawn already. Or be the first at the boss only to see a late coming guild arriving just before the spawn and steal the kill from you. Oh yeah, those were such AMAZING social mechanisms in older games, which made communities so much better.
Let's get real, it's harder today for the annoying part of the community to grief the others than it was 10-15 years ago. If anything, game mechanics have improved on that part.
This happened a lot in EQ it used to upset me when guilds did this. I really have no idea sometimes how people argue there were much better communities then. More like less people playing so the instances of nastiness were fewer and far in between and also being smaller the chances you get blacklisted and the effect telling more pronounced. I think same proportion of good and bad people exist today but the game populations are larger so you see more bad examples being called out.
Actually, more modern games have better mechanisms to keep annoying people at bay than old games like EQ, AC1 or UO. Nothing like fighting your way down a dungeon in EQ just to find the boss camped by 3 other guilds waiting for it to spawn already. Or be the first at the boss only to see a late coming guild arriving just before the spawn and steal the kill from you. Oh yeah, those were such AMAZING social mechanisms in older games, which made communities so much better.
Let's get real, it's harder today for the annoying part of the community to grief the others than it was 10-15 years ago. If anything, game mechanics have improved on that part.
This happened a lot in EQ it used to upset me when guilds did this. I really have no idea sometimes how people argue there were much better communities then. More like less people playing so the instances of nastiness were fewer and far in between and also being smaller the chances you get blacklisted and the effect telling more pronounced. I think same proportion of good and bad people exist today but the game populations are larger so you see more bad examples being called out.
100% agree. Devs has learned over the years to restrict interactions between players and get rid of the bad ones.
- training is gone
- ffa ow pvp is mostly gone
- camping/kill stealing is gone (at least instances)
- ninja loot is gone (in some games where loot is individually rolled)
Originally posted by maplestone Are we the community we want to be a part of?
The community here is already set, but if you were to make a new MMO for example that greatly rewarded player cooperation and social skills rather then in game mechanisms doing everything for you. You could have the potential to build a great community. It has to be designed from the ground up though.
More importantly the system and game has to be embraced by the players.
Balancing autonomy with community is the difficult part.
More importantly the system and game has to be embraced by the players.
I think history has pretty much showed us that players don't embrace community. They embrace convenience, fun combat, independence from other players, and solo-centric gameplay.
The new majority for sure, but there is still plenty of the audience left who would like this style of game.
I think the biggest mistake MMO's companies make now a days is try to be the next WoW in terms of popularity. WoW took almost 10 years to get where it is. It isn't a failure to appear to a niche, feel out your audience, specialize and target them and hook them into your game.
Getting the funds and data to figure out what those elements are, is a problem however. It will always have an element of risk. I think the MMO genre is just entering a cyclical phase. Eventually people will crave for less autonomy and more community based games that a living breathing world again. But now is not that time, at least not in the mass audience it isn't.
That is what so many people have a hard time accepting.
The new majority for sure, but there is still plenty of the audience left who would like this style of game.
I think the biggest mistake MMO's companies make now a days is try to be the next WoW in terms of popularity. WoW took almost 10 years to get where it is. It isn't a failure to appear to a niche, feel out your audience, specialize and target them and hook them into your game.
Getting the funds and data to figure out what those elements are, is a problem however. It will always have an element of risk. I think the MMO genre is just entering a cyclical phase. Eventually people will crave for less autonomy and more community based games that a living breathing world again. But now is not that time, at least not in the mass audience it isn't.
That is what so many people have a hard time accepting.
"plenty" is up for debate, and the market decides if there is enough left for another dev.
I don't see devs trying to be the next Wow. Not anymore. It is more likely they want to be the next LoL or WoT, or make an online shooter with some MMO elements (and try very hard NOT to call it a MMO).
Companies who has expertise in other genre is in better shape (i bet Blizz can easily turn Titan into an online non-MMO game if they want) to explore new ideas.
Plenty as in enough to create a profitable MMO, not WoW scale profitable but enough I feel that could and most likely would be a great success over time.
Originally posted by Vigiliance Plenty as in enough to create a profitable MMO, not WoW scale profitable but enough I feel that could and most likely would be a great success over time.
What you "feel" does not really matter. What investors "feel" decide if such MMOs will be made.
Originally posted by Vigiliance Its just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.
It will become a cyclical thing, eventually people will become tired of this and go back to "old school" elements. Granted not all of it will be lost but I doubt this style of game play much like the old school will be sustainable for much longer. Its like that old cliche people always want what they don't have.
I don't even think it'll be a massive switch either, I am not talking about every AAA title goes oh lets go back to old school but maybe one or two, or enough indies that want to stand out and do something different and make a name for themselves. I have hope things will change and the MMO's will hybrid the old and new together to make a better game then we have experienced so far.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by VigilianceIts just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.
Now accept that and move on.
Its probably because those oldies prefer to soak themselves with nostalgia and spend the greater portion of their time trying to convince others how much better it was back in the day, lol.
In regards to the OP's post, I think the functions of the communities today is normal as MMO's have acquired much larger player pools. Sure, playing MUD's was actually awesome because it had that small town feel, everyone knew everybody and you were somebody given you were online enough times no matter how good or bad you played. Now, it seems like you have to try harder to stick out or get others to notice you. Yes, I agree, no one gives a crap about you in game but if I gave a crap about every random player I ran across, I would never be able to play the game on my own terms. It's the difference between big city and rural towns.
Its funny the patience thing is pointed out but I think MMO's today in regards to socializing requires a bit more patience. There is a bit of that random people helping random people but you have to look for it. I easily found a guild on GW2 within literally 1 day of deciding that I wanted to join a guild. I made my criteria and found it easily with a bit of luck. I think its easy to be pessimistic about "communities" today vs yesterday but I agree with Cephus in having to keep up with the times. The small town feel of MMO's are gone...get used to that. I'm actually glad more and more people are playing.
Originally posted by VigilianceIts just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.
Now accept that and move on.
Its probably because those oldies prefer to soak themselves with nostalgia and spend the greater portion of their time trying to convince others how much better it was back in the day, lol.
In regards to the OP's post, I think the functions of the communities today is normal as MMO's have acquired much larger player pools. Sure, playing MUD's was actually awesome because it had that small town feel, everyone knew everybody and you were somebody given you were online enough times no matter how good or bad you played. Now, it seems like you have to try harder to stick out or get others to notice you. Yes, I agree, no one gives a crap about you in game but if I gave a crap about every random player I ran across, I would never be able to play the game on my own terms. It's the difference between big city and rural towns.
Its funny the patience thing is pointed out but I think MMO's today in regards to socializing requires a bit more patience. There is a bit of that random people helping random people but you have to look for it. I easily found a guild on GW2 within literally 1 day of deciding that I wanted to join a guild. I made my criteria and found it easily with a bit of luck. I think its easy to be pessimistic about "communities" today vs yesterday but I agree with Cephus in having to keep up with the times. The small town feel of MMO's are gone...get used to that. I'm actually glad more and more people are playing.
This ^
The PLAYERS do not like being forced to group with some asshat w/ magical underpants in order to enjoy a game. They want the freedom to be able to play how they want, with whom they want. Granted it's impossible to fully get that and still keep the 'massive' aspect of the MMO, but that's what people want. So devs will continue to make games that support that ideal.
I get that back in the day, when you had to walk up hills both ways, and waiting hours to potentially find a group was 'amazing', but that just doesn't fly anymore. Furthermore, that doesn't make a game more social, it just brings together bored people who have nothing better to do w/ their time. Whether they talk (or not) is still entirely up to the players playing the game. That much has never changed, it's just less forced now. People still talk to each other, people still help each other out randomly, people still meet friends & acquaintances in these games. The only thing that's changed is that you can't force people to play w/ you anymore, because you just happen to enjoy playing that rare class with epic loot no one else wants to be bothered with.
It will become a cyclical thing, eventually people will become tired of this and go back to "old school" elements. Granted not all of it will be lost but I doubt this style of game play much like the old school will be sustainable for much longer. Its like that old cliche people always want what they don't have.
That is just your guess.
Not everything is cyclical. We don't see a come-back of text adventures. We don't see a come-back of horse carriages. We don't see a come-back (in the US) for lock-room mysteries.
You simply don't know.
I don't doubt things will change .. they always do ... themepark MMOs are getting old now. But there is no reason that it should go back to the old ways. May be MMOs will die. May be they will become shooters (like Destiny). May be there is some new form of online gameplay will emerge and become popular (like MOBA in the last 2 years).
Some people sucked before WoW. Now that there are more people out there in the gaming world, there is a greater amount of sucky people. Population growth and all that.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I'm throw in largely with Loketofeit and a few others.
I do think that the decline within a given MMO did start with WoW, but I don't think it started with WoW Vanilla. I really believe it came about when the scale of the game diminished and need for community cooperation vanished.
I still remember a Hunter from Vanilla WoW. His name was Excallibur. He was the dumbest and worst players ever. There was a Warrior named Pdog. He didn't do the warrior quest for defensive stance ever. You didn't group with them. No one grouped with them. I had my list of good players I liked to group with and it was expansive. You had to form groups- it was nice to have a large list to pull from.
Guilds were extremely important. You didn't join a dungeon finder or raid finder and get stuck with random people. There was a social interaction aspect to group forming. Not always, but frequently. I rand UBRS probably some 20 plus times with a rogue from my server named Magnate. He needed a Painweaver Band. I wanted a Draconian Deflector. A lot of the time he'd send me a tell over warriors in his guild because we'd worked out a deal where I wouldn't roll on his Painweaver Band.
Raids were large(r) scale operations. You didn't take random people. There was a learning curve and it helped to know the people you were with. Loot allocation was always tricky, but I haven't seen a guild in a while that uses DKP in WoW whereas it was almost a requirement early on. If you were in a guild that raided, you were invested in your guild. It's where you got most of your grouping done. It's where you did all of your raiding. There was a lot of social chat. They were large and active.
In a lot of games now, you have a dungeon finder. You click to join an instance. You complete it. A lot of the ones I've run in through various MMOs have no social interaction. Everyone's on different servers. You'll never see these people again. There's not much of a point really. It's really more of a 5 person coop game in a lot of respects. There's no need for a large guild anymore. All the content you'd do with a guild is much smaller than it was. People have gotten left out of raids since the beginning of raiding, but when spots are so much fewer, more people get left out in the cold. It's difficult and typically much more time consuming for at least a few of the officers and raid leaders to keep track of multiple raiding groups within a guild. So they don't. The guilds get smaller or become irrelevant.
Content design has been anti-community for quite sometime in most of the WoW generation MMOs.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by VigilianceIts just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.
Now accept that and move on.
It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
It's pretty simple, back in the early days of online games and MMO's, being "online" meant a lot more than it does today and most people who were online back then appreciated the concept.
These days, everyone is online and gaming online is not a big deal like it used to be. Hell, even my 5 year old plays online games with his cousins.
That being said, I don't think we'll ever be able to recapture the magic that once was so it's probably better to move on and stop trying to blame games and developers for ruining communities.
As soon as everyone and their mother got high speed internet, gaming communities started going down hill. So if anything, you can blame the ISP's of the world for ruining gaming communities by making the internet so accessible.
Originally posted by VigilianceIts just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.
Now accept that and move on.
It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.
It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.
Seems to work for DDO, LOTRO, Marvel Heroes, Maple Story, NWO, and very many F2P games.
When you say "churn and burn", you mean "take over the industry"?
Originally posted by VigilianceIts just our opinion and neither of us have the data to decide whether or not the market exists, time will show us.
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.
Now accept that and move on.
It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.
You seem to think that none of these companies do market research to find out what the people most likely to play their games actually want. They spend a lot of money finding out the most desired aspects of a game, then they build their game to suit the majority of players in order to increase their potential income. Your side has been making the claim that things will change, wait and see, since WoW came out. You're still wrong.
You seem to think that none of these companies do market research to find out what the people most likely to play their games actually want. They spend a lot of money finding out the most desired aspects of a game, then they build their game to suit the majority of players in order to increase their potential income. Your side has been making the claim that things will change, wait and see, since WoW came out. You're still wrong.
Not only that, companies have lots of data and usage pattern about their own games.
Do you think open world pvp was taken out of WoW by accident? It was taken out because it was NOT popular.
Do you think Blizz make every dungeon LFD-able, and every raid LFR-able by accident? Originally, only one raid was LFR-able. It was very popular (and don't tell me you don't know they have the data) and they extend it to everything.
Everyone is stuck in the here and now. No one can say what the future will bring. Will that future come in 6 months, a year, 2 years? Certainly the trends that are in place now are easy to see but that won't last forever. Things change whether they like them or not.
Eventually the instant gratification and solo centric game play elements that are a hit now will fall to the wayside and things will change. Does that mean everything is going to go back to the days of EQ and Vanilla WoW... certainly not but you'd be a fool to think that solo centric MMO's will forever keep selling. People will tire of this style and inevitably want something different. Just like with what happened with old classic MMO's. It'll be solo centric game play's turn to cry in the corner and rage on forums within a few years (if that).
Comments
This happened a lot in EQ it used to upset me when guilds did this. I really have no idea sometimes how people argue there were much better communities then. More like less people playing so the instances of nastiness were fewer and far in between and also being smaller the chances you get blacklisted and the effect telling more pronounced. I think same proportion of good and bad people exist today but the game populations are larger so you see more bad examples being called out.
100% agree. Devs has learned over the years to restrict interactions between players and get rid of the bad ones.
- training is gone
- ffa ow pvp is mostly gone
- camping/kill stealing is gone (at least instances)
- ninja loot is gone (in some games where loot is individually rolled)
The community here is already set, but if you were to make a new MMO for example that greatly rewarded player cooperation and social skills rather then in game mechanisms doing everything for you. You could have the potential to build a great community. It has to be designed from the ground up though.
More importantly the system and game has to be embraced by the players.
Balancing autonomy with community is the difficult part.
I think history has pretty much showed us that players don't embrace community. They embrace convenience, fun combat, independence from other players, and solo-centric gameplay.
The new majority for sure, but there is still plenty of the audience left who would like this style of game.
I think the biggest mistake MMO's companies make now a days is try to be the next WoW in terms of popularity. WoW took almost 10 years to get where it is. It isn't a failure to appear to a niche, feel out your audience, specialize and target them and hook them into your game.
Getting the funds and data to figure out what those elements are, is a problem however. It will always have an element of risk. I think the MMO genre is just entering a cyclical phase. Eventually people will crave for less autonomy and more community based games that a living breathing world again. But now is not that time, at least not in the mass audience it isn't.
That is what so many people have a hard time accepting.
"plenty" is up for debate, and the market decides if there is enough left for another dev.
I don't see devs trying to be the next Wow. Not anymore. It is more likely they want to be the next LoL or WoT, or make an online shooter with some MMO elements (and try very hard NOT to call it a MMO).
Companies who has expertise in other genre is in better shape (i bet Blizz can easily turn Titan into an online non-MMO game if they want) to explore new ideas.
What you "feel" does not really matter. What investors "feel" decide if such MMOs will be made.
With Wow...same thing...
Time has already shown us. MMOs have moved almost entirely away from group-centric play, almost entirely away from old-school mechanics and now they are moving almost entirely away from a P2P model. This is what the majority of people playing these games want, that's why the marketplace reflects that. I find it bizarre that the pro-old-school and pro-group players spend all their time making excuses for why their preferred style of play has lost, instead of just accepting that, in the marketplace of ideas, the majority of players voted with their dollars and picked the side you don't like.
Now accept that and move on.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
It will become a cyclical thing, eventually people will become tired of this and go back to "old school" elements. Granted not all of it will be lost but I doubt this style of game play much like the old school will be sustainable for much longer. Its like that old cliche people always want what they don't have.
I don't even think it'll be a massive switch either, I am not talking about every AAA title goes oh lets go back to old school but maybe one or two, or enough indies that want to stand out and do something different and make a name for themselves. I have hope things will change and the MMO's will hybrid the old and new together to make a better game then we have experienced so far.
Now accept that and move on.
Its probably because those oldies prefer to soak themselves with nostalgia and spend the greater portion of their time trying to convince others how much better it was back in the day, lol.
In regards to the OP's post, I think the functions of the communities today is normal as MMO's have acquired much larger player pools. Sure, playing MUD's was actually awesome because it had that small town feel, everyone knew everybody and you were somebody given you were online enough times no matter how good or bad you played. Now, it seems like you have to try harder to stick out or get others to notice you. Yes, I agree, no one gives a crap about you in game but if I gave a crap about every random player I ran across, I would never be able to play the game on my own terms. It's the difference between big city and rural towns.
Its funny the patience thing is pointed out but I think MMO's today in regards to socializing requires a bit more patience. There is a bit of that random people helping random people but you have to look for it. I easily found a guild on GW2 within literally 1 day of deciding that I wanted to join a guild. I made my criteria and found it easily with a bit of luck. I think its easy to be pessimistic about "communities" today vs yesterday but I agree with Cephus in having to keep up with the times. The small town feel of MMO's are gone...get used to that. I'm actually glad more and more people are playing.
This ^
The PLAYERS do not like being forced to group with some asshat w/ magical underpants in order to enjoy a game. They want the freedom to be able to play how they want, with whom they want. Granted it's impossible to fully get that and still keep the 'massive' aspect of the MMO, but that's what people want. So devs will continue to make games that support that ideal.
I get that back in the day, when you had to walk up hills both ways, and waiting hours to potentially find a group was 'amazing', but that just doesn't fly anymore. Furthermore, that doesn't make a game more social, it just brings together bored people who have nothing better to do w/ their time. Whether they talk (or not) is still entirely up to the players playing the game. That much has never changed, it's just less forced now. People still talk to each other, people still help each other out randomly, people still meet friends & acquaintances in these games. The only thing that's changed is that you can't force people to play w/ you anymore, because you just happen to enjoy playing that rare class with epic loot no one else wants to be bothered with.
That is just your guess.
Not everything is cyclical. We don't see a come-back of text adventures. We don't see a come-back of horse carriages. We don't see a come-back (in the US) for lock-room mysteries.
You simply don't know.
I don't doubt things will change .. they always do ... themepark MMOs are getting old now. But there is no reason that it should go back to the old ways. May be MMOs will die. May be they will become shooters (like Destiny). May be there is some new form of online gameplay will emerge and become popular (like MOBA in the last 2 years).
Who knows.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I'm throw in largely with Loketofeit and a few others.
I do think that the decline within a given MMO did start with WoW, but I don't think it started with WoW Vanilla. I really believe it came about when the scale of the game diminished and need for community cooperation vanished.
I still remember a Hunter from Vanilla WoW. His name was Excallibur. He was the dumbest and worst players ever. There was a Warrior named Pdog. He didn't do the warrior quest for defensive stance ever. You didn't group with them. No one grouped with them. I had my list of good players I liked to group with and it was expansive. You had to form groups- it was nice to have a large list to pull from.
Guilds were extremely important. You didn't join a dungeon finder or raid finder and get stuck with random people. There was a social interaction aspect to group forming. Not always, but frequently. I rand UBRS probably some 20 plus times with a rogue from my server named Magnate. He needed a Painweaver Band. I wanted a Draconian Deflector. A lot of the time he'd send me a tell over warriors in his guild because we'd worked out a deal where I wouldn't roll on his Painweaver Band.
Raids were large(r) scale operations. You didn't take random people. There was a learning curve and it helped to know the people you were with. Loot allocation was always tricky, but I haven't seen a guild in a while that uses DKP in WoW whereas it was almost a requirement early on. If you were in a guild that raided, you were invested in your guild. It's where you got most of your grouping done. It's where you did all of your raiding. There was a lot of social chat. They were large and active.
In a lot of games now, you have a dungeon finder. You click to join an instance. You complete it. A lot of the ones I've run in through various MMOs have no social interaction. Everyone's on different servers. You'll never see these people again. There's not much of a point really. It's really more of a 5 person coop game in a lot of respects. There's no need for a large guild anymore. All the content you'd do with a guild is much smaller than it was. People have gotten left out of raids since the beginning of raiding, but when spots are so much fewer, more people get left out in the cold. It's difficult and typically much more time consuming for at least a few of the officers and raid leaders to keep track of multiple raiding groups within a guild. So they don't. The guilds get smaller or become irrelevant.
Content design has been anti-community for quite sometime in most of the WoW generation MMOs.
Now accept that and move on.
It's not that our preferred style of play has lost; it's that one game in particular (WoW) made a killing, and game companies seem to think soloability is a big reason; so everyone churns out soloable games. As more games churn and burn, the misguidedness of this approach will become more clear.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
My YouTube MMO PvP Channel
It's pretty simple, back in the early days of online games and MMO's, being "online" meant a lot more than it does today and most people who were online back then appreciated the concept.
These days, everyone is online and gaming online is not a big deal like it used to be. Hell, even my 5 year old plays online games with his cousins.
That being said, I don't think we'll ever be able to recapture the magic that once was so it's probably better to move on and stop trying to blame games and developers for ruining communities.
As soon as everyone and their mother got high speed internet, gaming communities started going down hill. So if anything, you can blame the ISP's of the world for ruining gaming communities by making the internet so accessible.
Problem is that with F2P it doesn't matter.
Seems to work for DDO, LOTRO, Marvel Heroes, Maple Story, NWO, and very many F2P games.
When you say "churn and burn", you mean "take over the industry"?
You seem to think that none of these companies do market research to find out what the people most likely to play their games actually want. They spend a lot of money finding out the most desired aspects of a game, then they build their game to suit the majority of players in order to increase their potential income. Your side has been making the claim that things will change, wait and see, since WoW came out. You're still wrong.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Not only that, companies have lots of data and usage pattern about their own games.
Do you think open world pvp was taken out of WoW by accident? It was taken out because it was NOT popular.
Do you think Blizz make every dungeon LFD-able, and every raid LFR-able by accident? Originally, only one raid was LFR-able. It was very popular (and don't tell me you don't know they have the data) and they extend it to everything.
Everyone is stuck in the here and now. No one can say what the future will bring. Will that future come in 6 months, a year, 2 years? Certainly the trends that are in place now are easy to see but that won't last forever. Things change whether they like them or not.
Eventually the instant gratification and solo centric game play elements that are a hit now will fall to the wayside and things will change. Does that mean everything is going to go back to the days of EQ and Vanilla WoW... certainly not but you'd be a fool to think that solo centric MMO's will forever keep selling. People will tire of this style and inevitably want something different. Just like with what happened with old classic MMO's. It'll be solo centric game play's turn to cry in the corner and rage on forums within a few years (if that).
That is all.