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With Advanced AI, Will EQN Be Too Difficult For Today's Modern Players?

13

Comments

  • nennafirnennafir Greater New Orleans Metro Area, LAPosts: 283Member Uncommon

    Modern players will adapt.

     

    We will judge the game based on what it is.

     

    I think it is EQ fans they have to worry about.  Based on my time on these forums, the typical EQ fan:

    (1) Is almost paralyzed and unable to do almost anything requiring dexterity.

    (2) Has diminished mental capacity and doesn't like choices.

    (3) Has lots of friends to help make up for their obvious deficiencies.

    (4) Wants a game that plays to their strength.  i.e., wants a game that rewards incompetent play but lots of friends.

     

    Sorry if this is hitting too close to home for some of you!

  • ropeniceropenice Lake Worth, FLPosts: 587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephastus

    Today's modern players? You are referring to WoW refugees? Not all players are like that, and I certainly hope that we have players that have at least slight intelligence and are able to adapt to "harder" content.

     

    With that said, if EQNext is going for a niche market, then it doesn't matter if the general populace thinks its too hard. It only matters what the target audience thinks... Sandbox players relish new interactions, and being able to adapt, and some (look up Eve news), have placed months and years of planning into some extraordinary, and extraordinarily hard encounters, done by players themselves. So much so, that they had to slow down time in game for the servers to be able to handle the phenomenal loads that were placed on it by the thousands of players and ships participating in it.

     

    TL:DR: So I would be more concerned about what players can do more than what an "enhanced AI" can do.

    There's no way they are going for a niche market. This game will be very casual friendly to get the largest share of market, adding in some pve/pvp sandbox features to get those two groups and whatever else they can think of to throw in to get more peeps hooked to keep CS going. And when u can buy things to use in pve/pvp sandbox-people will line up to do so.

    As to the AI, as they are going to cater to casual play, they will not make AI much more difficult than modern games, just add a few twists. If it does end up being to hard for them, they will tone it down to keep the casual market. Doubtful we will see any earth shattering new AI.

  • ropeniceropenice Lake Worth, FLPosts: 587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nennafir

    Modern players will adapt.

     

    We will judge the game based on what it is.

     

    I think it is EQ fans they have to worry about.  Based on my time on these forums, the typical EQ fan:

    (1) Is almost paralyzed and unable to do almost anything requiring dexterity.

    (2) Has diminished mental capacity and doesn't like choices.

    (3) Has lots of friends to help make up for their obvious deficiencies.

    (4) Wants a game that plays to their strength.  i.e., wants a game that rewards incompetent play but lots of friends.

     

    Sorry if this is hitting too close to home for some of you!

    You are really an idiot if you think this way. It just seems like you are trying to lash out like a child because OP used modern players as the target of post, probably because modern games are much easier than most of the originals. Their is no game that is too difficult to learn for anyone if they choose to put in the time. People play different games or styles because they have that preference, not because any game is so incredibly difficult. You have no idea why people play certain games or prefer a different style of combat.

    And as I've said, EQN AI might have some little gimmicks added to make it appear more difficult but gamers (modern or EQ vets), will have no trouble adapting to it if they choose to. Even if they could make it as clever as a human, gamers have been pvping since day one, so really, how tough can they make it.

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways BangladeshPosts: 1,049Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wizyy

    What I expect of this "advanced AI" hype:

    Bosses will attack and try to finish off those with low HP instead of continuously switching to whatever player hits them with most damage.

    Good enough to boast "advanced AI" because a LOT more players will die.

    Hehe, i am also expecting this to happen, but let's just see people here hype it up even more. in the end it will be hilarious, even if we say :"i told you so"; we will not feel properly satisfied. :D  

    i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
    Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member

    SOE and "advanced AI" in the same thread.

    That...is...so...funny...

  • LogansanLogansan BrisbanePosts: 45Member
    Originally posted by wizyy

    What I expect of this "advanced AI" hype:

    Bosses will attack and try to finish off those with low HP instead of continuously switching to whatever player hits them with most damage.

    Good enough to boast "advanced AI" because a LOT more players will die.

    I feel wizyy may be pretty close to the turth, i guess time will tell.

    Random NPC events (where mobs spawn to attack a village or something) has nothing to do with NPC Combat AI

     

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by Sojhin

    Modern gamers are indeed not that good at gaming thus why the modern genre is so dumbed down.

    Dont just take my word for it. Nintendo did a study showing that 90 percent of present 25 and under gamers cannot beat the first level of mario brothers.

     

    http://www.p4rgaming.com/majority-of-gamers-today-cant-finish-level-1-in-super-mario-bros/

    I find that very hard to believe as my 3 year old daughter can beat the first level of mario brothers.  I guess if they gave all of those playing the first level with an overdose of Lithium maybe.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,763Member Uncommon
    Everyone keeps on thinking they are going t oreinvent the wheel with EQN...Folks I got news for you: You'll be lucky to even get a playable game......Both EQ1 and 2 had hardcore game elements at one time and SOE dumbed them down to the lowest common denominator to appease their vocal few......This company isn't setting any new standards and they aren't changing the world.
  • LogansanLogansan BrisbanePosts: 45Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Players aren't really supposed to lose in general PvE content. The mob's job isn't really to stop a player, it's to provide a source of progression resources. There's a bit more to it than that, the player is supposed to get used to the game's rules and the general theme of the game, but at a basic level the game is supposed to provide a challenge, but not failure. Players are not divided into "Successes" and "Failures" It's not competition, it's entertainment.

    PvP has a different purpose. It really does exist to divide players into "Successes" and "Failures". Sometimes that dividing factor is some built in skill of the player, and sometimes it's just how long the player has played the game, but the filtering effect exists. It's not entertainment, it's competition.

    It's been possible for awhile now for combat AI to always make the right decisions in a fight, to never make a mistake in a fight and to always beat the player when possible without resorting to huge pools of hit points. Especially in games that involve tab-targeting and active skills as the primary combat mechanics. However, that's not why the combat AI exists. It's not there to always beat the player. It's there to provide entertainment, and a progression path. So the advanced AI isn't going to be like fighting other players.

     

    One of the best posts I've seen on this forum for a while lizardbones, clearly shows why we should never try to compare PVE to PVP combat.

    I can add that there is no need to change this separation on the way PVE and PVP combat should work, any game that tries to integrate the two too much will fail to attract the wider audience (from both camps).

  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member

    It doesnt matter over all. You can either have very good AI or very good script structure whatever. None of it means anything if the actual in game mechanics are bad. Now they scaled down GW2s initial AI after Beta3 because of constant griping I imagine this trend will most likely continue in EQN. Natrually with a skillbar of 8 very similar to GW2s weapon/skill system there will be some kind of abused dodge mechanic and people will just complain until they can abuse the dodge mechanic on trash mobs. 

    So naturally AI being good is nice and all, but what is the AI going to be up against. A spammy zerg of questers smashing their instacast abilities? From what I can tell so far if they implement the faceroll combat system they have in mind, you could probably unleash a Balrog into town square with an IQ of 182 and it would die of ability spam in a few minutes. 

  • MasterfuzzfuzzMasterfuzzfuzz United States, NCPosts: 169Member

    lolololol this could be the easiest question I've been asked all day.

     

    NO.

    It is actually catered to the casual/young/modern mmo player and it will be retardedly easy. Just like every other mmo in the last 5-7 years.

  • ArconaArcona VanlosePosts: 1,185Member
    Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz

    lolololol this could be the easiest question I've been asked all day.

     

    NO.

    It is actually catered to the casual/young/modern mmo player and it will be retardedly easy. Just like every other mmo in the last 5-7 years.

    and you know this how?

    Time machine?  :)

    As I see it there could be situations where people are missing a certain point or have to do a certain deed in the world to move to next tier, and since you cant alt-tab and look up where to find stuff, since the world is constantly changing and procedural generated... the whining will be extreme if the "hardcore" people cant figure out how to move to next tier fast enough :)

  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon

    I'll judge when i see this so called "advanced AI", but if you mean the monsters setting up camps, disbanding, moving on and making ambushes. I think that's a nice new dynamic feature, but it's got nothing to do with AI.

    "Advanced AI" is too complex for the scale of MMO's (untill they come up with an actual AI, but then we all f'ed! And it'd just be like an FFA-PVP game without any NPC's.. like CoD or BF3 )

    And no, it won't be difficult.

     

    Currently playing: -

    Waiting for: Class4.

    Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    I strongly doubt PVE will be all that difficult, smart AI or typically stupid AI. This isn't meant to be a hardcore game. I can still remember logging into EQ for the first time and getting totally owned by a freaking rat in the starter area. I sincerely doubt most modern players would stand for that. The real question is will it be fun? I think we have all played a bazillion MMORPGs by now and I can't help but feel the market audience is insanely tired of the same old mob grinding.  We have all done it ten years even if in many different class flavors. Some one really needs to open up MMORPG combat in a new way with a new pattern to the levels other than huge mobs covering the area. I am looking to see if EQN can shake it up some how.
  • GaladournGaladourn AthensPosts: 1,052Member
    If Bethesda can do it with Radiant AI in their TES games I don't see why SOE cant' develop a similar system.
  • ltankltank Fort Myers, FLPosts: 288Member Uncommon

    I've read through pretty much every post in this thread and i think every one of you are misapplying the term "advanced AI". Most of you are trying to use that term to think that every single mob from the lowliest goblin to the meanest dragon are going to resemble highly scripted and difficult encounters in other games making the fight itself more challenging.

     

    What I think SOE means by advanced AI is not really making the individual mechanics of PvE combat more difficult and advanced past what we've seen in other games; it is making the word feel more alive by giving the creatures in it motivations and options to satisfy their needs, allowing them to migrate around and seek out opportunities that satisfy the needs they are trying to meet. Think about the term "advanced AI" more as it applies to an ant colony sim, or real time strategy game or ecology simlulator.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by dejoblue

    Will this drive away PVE players?

    Are you kidding? And miss a change to pose? "This is the real hardcore game"?

    That line's been successfully marketing titles for as long as...well, mmos.

     

    The forum-strutting is already in gear, despite the title not actually existing yet, right? $$$!!

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by niceguy3978
    Originally posted by Sojhin

    Modern gamers are indeed not that good at gaming thus why the modern genre is so dumbed down.

    Dont just take my word for it. Nintendo did a study showing that 90 percent of present 25 and under gamers cannot beat the first level of mario brothers.

     

    http://www.p4rgaming.com/majority-of-gamers-today-cant-finish-level-1-in-super-mario-bros/

    I find that very hard to believe as my 3 year old daughter can beat the first level of mario brothers.  I guess if they gave all of those playing the first level with an overdose of Lithium maybe.

    well the real issue isn't that they don't finish because it's too challenging, but rather can't hold their interest long enough to bother finishing Level 1.

    Makes sense to me that your 3 year old however can stick with it, seems to be geared towards here age bracket.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • HaixonEQHaixonEQ Brooklyn, NYPosts: 3Member
    I'm hoping the AI is good.  If the game remembers what each of us has done and reacts accordingly, it will be easier for the types of players who can't figure out Mario Brothers and be challenging for the more experienced player. /crosses fingers.
  • DejoblueDejoblue Youngstown, OHPosts: 296Member Uncommon

    I think something we are overlooking is that while there may be some advanced AI, they also have access to what buttons we are pushing. It IS a computer. It knows that we are a Tier 3 mage and that the last spell we cast cost X mana and we have y mana left and looking back through parses it sees a pattern of us using Z ability, so it shields itself for that ability.

     

    My frost bolt has travel time it immediately casts a fire shield to absorb it.

     

    Our tactics may be thrown out of the window. One of the difficult things for kiters in PVP is that...you cant kite other players, sure you can if they are idiots, a smart player runs the opposite direction or develops their own anti kiting tactic, NPCs usually go where we lead them.

     

    Maybe we wont be able to pull mobs back, yea they come out see the group makeup and run back.

  • Univers0Univers0 SydneyPosts: 29Member
    Suppose instead of traditional boss encounter which has massive stats but acts in a predictable way, they go with a boss which has scaled down stats but adjusts on the fly or even a balanced group of intelligent mobs that creates a mirror match 6v6?   For variety's sake I would welcome it with open arms. 
  • MasterfuzzfuzzMasterfuzzfuzz United States, NCPosts: 169Member
    Just the opposite. It is purposely designed (just like the rest of the game) to be intuitive, easy, and accessible. The game is about money, they are going to appeal to the largest possible crowd: the casuals.
  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
    Just the opposite. It is purposely designed (just like the rest of the game) to be intuitive, easy, and accessible. The game is about money, they are going to appeal to the largest possible crowd: the casuals.

    Not sure about that..  The reason I say that is because "TWITCH" combat is the minority of players..  This will be interesting to see how many actually stay to play after the one year anniversary.. I personally hate fast pace twitch after 15 minutes..  EQN will have no staying power for me., and I know all my friends that I game with are not fans of twitch either..

  • MasterfuzzfuzzMasterfuzzfuzz United States, NCPosts: 169Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
    Just the opposite. It is purposely designed (just like the rest of the game) to be intuitive, easy, and accessible. The game is about money, they are going to appeal to the largest possible crowd: the casuals.

    Not sure about that..  The reason I say that is because "TWITCH" combat is the minority of players..  This will be interesting to see how many actually stay to play after the one year anniversary.. I personally hate fast pace twitch after 15 minutes..  EQN will have no staying power for me., and I know all my friends that I game with are not fans of twitch either..

    I'm not sure what you mean by twitch. You mean gw2 style spam all skills on cooldown? Or Tera style action combat? I hate the former and love the latter. I thought tera and neverwinter for that matter had great combat systems. I'll never go back to tab targeting. What kind of combat are you looking for

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
    Just the opposite. It is purposely designed (just like the rest of the game) to be intuitive, easy, and accessible. The game is about money, they are going to appeal to the largest possible crowd: the casuals.

    Not sure about that..  The reason I say that is because "TWITCH" combat is the minority of players..  This will be interesting to see how many actually stay to play after the one year anniversary.. I personally hate fast pace twitch after 15 minutes..  EQN will have no staying power for me., and I know all my friends that I game with are not fans of twitch either..

    I'm not sure what you mean by twitch. You mean gw2 style spam all skills on cooldown? Or Tera style action combat? I hate the former and love the latter. I thought tera and neverwinter for that matter had great combat systems. I'll never go back to tab targeting. What kind of combat are you looking for

         As a player that likes playing range dps and healer..  If I target YOU with my arrow, I will always be aimed your direction.. I do not have to worry about "CONE of fire" or other twitch skills like those you see in Planetside, Call of Duty, etc etc..  This is probably why many roles like Heals are GONE.. It's impossible to target and auto stay on target "friend or foe"..  I enjoy the ability to use my F1-F6 keys to target group members.. That will NOT be the case in EQN..  Let alone the pain in the ass melee combat where I have to constantly stay in range of mobs that move around like bunny rabbits..  NO thanks..  If they want to make combat OH SO REAL, then add back in stamina issues.. the more you bounce around the more tired you get, and eventually you'll be a SLUG wore out and an easy kill..   As it should be..   

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