I would like to comment on the assumption of players figuring out everything and of it being plastered all across the internet.
I believe that this will happen. But I also believe that with incredible depth it can be a moot point.
Once again I call upon my EVE experience. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING about EVE is online, posted, theorycrafted and set up for you from loadouts to implants and stat allocation to EVEMON which tells you exactly what to do and when to do it to advance your character.
However, this requires an ENORMOUS amount of interest and research and time and, here is the difficult part, reading on the part of the player.
Would anyone like to discuss the merits of this type of system? What if EQN is more spreadsheet/theorycrafting and less button mashing and zerging?
Keep in mind we do not know what the death penalty is, we may want to research every last detail of our build and what we intend to do before we embark on a mission or quest or other activity. I am not talking, "where do I go for this quest?" I am talking, "Does Arcane Bolt do enough damage to elemental giants for me to use this build while I farm elemental crystals for my crystal chandelier in my house or guild hall, or do I need to do something else before I die and waste my time and materials?"
Modern gamers are indeed not that good at gaming thus why the modern genre is so dumbed down.
Dont just take my word for it. Nintendo did a study showing that 90 percent of present 25 and under gamers cannot beat the first level of mario brothers.
Originally posted by evilastro Advanced AI doesn't mean stronger, smarter or harder. It just means it replicates the likely intelligence of amob or NPC better.
Dumb enemies and easy challenges can still exist with better AI.
I hate to be Buzz Killington up in here, but until SoE actually shows us this extreme AI in action, I feel its nothing more than PR hype at this point.
Yeah, this.
We've seen a small tech demo in action. That's it. We don't have anything else to go on yet.
To me the answer to the OP's question is very obvious - No, because Sony won't let that happen.
The biggest disappointment to me from the reveal was how clearly Sony is aiming at a mainstream audience. I see some people say things like "well if this is a niche title ...". Personally I don't see Sony aiming for a niche audience (and reading between the lines in the reveal confirmed it to me). They want huge numbers of players, so the difficulty level will be adjusted to the lowest common denominator.
Currently all of today's big developers are stuck on the idea that they can make games that "everyone will love". I pray for the day that they wake up from this dream. I'm sure it will mean 90% of them will switch to making "casual" games, but at least it will mean that there will be the occasional game that is aimed at one of the niche markets I belong to.
I would like to comment on the assumption of players figuring out everything and of it being plastered all across the internet.
I believe that this will happen. But I also believe that with incredible depth it can be a moot point.
Once again I call upon my EVE experience. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING about EVE is online, posted, theorycrafted and set up for you from loadouts to implants and stat allocation to EVEMON which tells you exactly what to do and when to do it to advance your character.
However, this requires an ENORMOUS amount of interest and research and time and, here is the difficult part, reading on the part of the player.
Would anyone like to discuss the merits of this type of system? What if EQN is more spreadsheet/theorycrafting and less button mashing and zerging?
Keep in mind we do not know what the death penalty is, we may want to research every last detail of our build and what we intend to do before we embark on a mission or quest or other activity. I am not talking, "where do I go for this quest?" I am talking, "Does Arcane Bolt do enough damage to elemental giants for me to use this build while I farm elemental crystals for my crystal chandelier in my house or guild hall, or do I need to do something else before I die and waste my time and materials?"
I really don't think SoE is going for an EVE like level of complexity though. I just don't see it. But, if it did, my interest in the game would probably triple.
There really is no such thing as Emergent AI. It's BS. and I know we are talking semantics, but it's still misleading. It's a buzzword they are applying to using scripting to a greater level than had been done before. But I've always felt that MMO mob AI was kept stupidly toned down and that it could always be used better. I think most people have the idea backwards. The Trinity didn't evolve so that players could deal with the limitations of mob AI. The Trinity evolved so the Mob AI could deal with the limitations of the players. This isn't going to change. Many are saying no more trinity, but that's going to be the 1st thing players will attempt to re create once EQN releases. "How can I make myself more tanky?" "What do I need to do to make the mobs want to hit me more?" In GW2, starting to revive any NPC or player might as well be considered as a taunt mechanic.
Cross posting because the communities on MMORPG.COM and reddit are pretty different and I would love to hear MMORPG.COM's community opinion and thoughts. (I also wanna see more of you over on reddit!)
One of the top retorts of PVP players when defending the merits of PVP is that scripted dumb AI PVE encounters have no equal to a real player making real decisions while engaged in combat.
With the advent of the purported AI that EverQuest Next will have, will PVE players find themselves at the mercy of NPCs that do anything to survive.
I know it has been stated that the "intelligence" of NPCs can be adjusted, but at what point does the PVE encounter become more like a PVP encounter, where you do not know what the NPC has up their sleeve, or that they may simply run away and or get help?
Short of tea-bagging, can we expect advanced scenarios such as spontaneous NPC ambushes and the like?
This may make PVE encounters, at least coming from a traditional "dumb AI" themepark background seem to be more difficult to "master". With all of the handholding going on in todays broken Skinner's box where gamers sate themselves on endless pellets and then move on to the next thrill and with no place left to turn due to these new expectations, has EverQuest Next really turned to PVP emulation?
Will this drive away PVE players?
Will PVP players become advanced AI PVE players?
It is understandable that new tactics will need to be devised to contend with these new enemies but is EverQuest Next going to blur that line between PVE and PVP?
Will PVP players find themselves more and more able to enjoy and become engaged with advanced AI?
What are your thoughts? What should SOE consider? What should PVE and PVP players consider?
Just the ones that hate pvp for being too competitive!
I expect if it is infact "Advance AI" its likely the effects of the mechanics will be toned down for the general public so to speak. Its just how things are really. If not, things will just be likely able to be brute forced zergged down which well... just ruins any fun at all of it.
Players aren't really supposed to lose in general PvE content. The mob's job isn't really to stop a player, it's to provide a source of progression resources. There's a bit more to it than that, the player is supposed to get used to the game's rules and the general theme of the game, but at a basic level the game is supposed to provide a challenge, but not failure. Players are not divided into "Successes" and "Failures" It's not competition, it's entertainment.
PvP has a different purpose. It really does exist to divide players into "Successes" and "Failures". Sometimes that dividing factor is some built in skill of the player, and sometimes it's just how long the player has played the game, but the filtering effect exists. It's not entertainment, it's competition.
It's been possible for awhile now for combat AI to always make the right decisions in a fight, to never make a mistake in a fight and to always beat the player when possible without resorting to huge pools of hit points. Especially in games that involve tab-targeting and active skills as the primary combat mechanics. However, that's not why the combat AI exists. It's not there to always beat the player. It's there to provide entertainment, and a progression path. So the advanced AI isn't going to be like fighting other players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by evilastro Advanced AI doesn't mean stronger, smarter or harder. It just means it replicates the likely intelligence of amob or NPC better. Dumb enemies and easy challenges can still exist with better AI.
I agree. The trend lately is to make things easy for the players. Let's hope Sony doesn't go this route but I'm not holding my breath.
Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Cross posting because the communities on MMORPG.COM and reddit are pretty different and I would love to hear MMORPG.COM's community opinion and thoughts. (I also wanna see more of you over on reddit!)
One of the top retorts of PVP players when defending the merits of PVP is that scripted dumb AI PVE encounters have no equal to a real player making real decisions while engaged in combat.
With the advent of the purported AI that EverQuest Next will have, will PVE players find themselves at the mercy of NPCs that do anything to survive.
I know it has been stated that the "intelligence" of NPCs can be adjusted, but at what point does the PVE encounter become more like a PVP encounter, where you do not know what the NPC has up their sleeve, or that they may simply run away and or get help?
Short of tea-bagging, can we expect advanced scenarios such as spontaneous NPC ambushes and the like?
This may make PVE encounters, at least coming from a traditional "dumb AI" themepark background seem to be more difficult to "master". With all of the handholding going on in todays broken Skinner's box where gamers sate themselves on endless pellets and then move on to the next thrill and with no place left to turn due to these new expectations, has EverQuest Next really turned to PVP emulation?
Will this drive away PVE players?
Will PVP players become advanced AI PVE players?
It is understandable that new tactics will need to be devised to contend with these new enemies but is EverQuest Next going to blur that line between PVE and PVP?
Will PVP players find themselves more and more able to enjoy and become engaged with advanced AI?
What are your thoughts? What should SOE consider? What should PVE and PVP players consider?
As a Software Engineer I can tell you for a FACT that they cannot produce an AI "advanced" enough to fulfill their claims.
To me, from a professional side of things, it seems as if this whole A.I business is just a giant cop-out to avoid putting work into critical systems and designs that would otherwise allow a Tank/Healer/Dps/Control system to exist (ironic that it is called Trinity when, in fact, Control has always been there since EQ).
Originally posted by evilastro Advanced AI doesn't mean stronger, smarter or harder. It just means it replicates the likely intelligence of amob or NPC better. Dumb enemies and easy challenges can still exist with better AI.
I agree. The trend lately is to make things easy for the players. Let's hope Sony doesn't go this route but I'm not holding my breath.
But this is the route that most companies are going and complaining about it won't change it. The difficult stuff is in the end game now because the hardcore players get through the leveling content quickly and gaming companies don't want casuals or less-skilled gamers to ragequit due to game difficulty and subsequently lose at least half of their customer base in the process. There are just too many posters on this message board that just won't accept a diversity of skills and time commitment in today's player base. Yes, there are now bad players, yes there are now players who have other hobbies or responsibilities besides gaming and only have an hour of time to play a day. Just learn to deal with it.
The player base will accept more difficult encounters if the difficulty is slowly scaled up. The problem with modern MMORPGs, is the scaling is way off. You blow through the first 9/10ths of the game like its biking downhill, and then you hit a small ramp that leads right into a brick wall.
I think all the soloing is to blame for this myself. It makes it difficult to ease people into challenging groups and raids; because the first part of the game is always so easy. You can't make 40+ different classes capable of soloing efficiently - without dumbing down the mobs to be generically easy. All you can do is make it take longer to grind levels (who wants to play Lineage 2?).
By the time these solo players make it to the end game, they demand easy groups, easy raids, ect. What is left for the dedicated players is a very small, radically more difficult piece of content for them to chew on for a few months. Then they nerf it; in addition to all the free gear otherwise trivializes it.
I think it is very possible for the new AI to provide challenging game play. I also believe it will be possible for players to adapt to these challenges. Dragon's dogma is a great example of smart AI that works off different triggers to provide a challenging fight. One example would be fighting chimeras. Targeting a chimera's goat head triggers aggressive action against the attacker as the goat provides it's only form of magic casting. The snake tail uses it's tail to poison high damage resistant target or to interrupt casters. The lion keeps it's movement mostly sporadic as it tries to poison itself so the 3 heads can do the most damage. Taunts only work if the melee is doing more damage than the casters' or no one is healing. If ranged dps / caster want to raise the likelihood of a taunt they have to break line of sight of the chimera. If that still isn't enough the tankier ally can wedge themselves in between the beast or they can jump on top of the beast which draws high aggro but leaves them prone to being bucked, trampled or assailed by the goat and snake. Night time offers different scenarios altogether as the chimera is more prone to ambush his prey and employ terrain such as huge boulders for loss of sight.
Another example would be the drake. The drake has different triggers while flying and while fighting on land. He employs silences for caster, doom/ death magic mechanics for over aggressive allies or allies that the drake really wants to single out (stop the sorcerer from nailing him in his heart for the 19484728 time with those giant ice berg spells), if he senses he is losing the ground war he will take to the air and assault you with fire. Drakes also use flight for misdirection to charge behind you defense line. Taunts again can't just be spammed( can't just have a healer spamming in his face while the warrior is yelling at him). Tanks can take active roles again to jump on the dragon face and claw at his eyes etc to provoke the dragon instead of letting him steam role the mage setting up a kill shot. Drakes are exceptionally smart so I'll stop there but the AI used allows for many layers of approach, combat, and tactics.
If you've ever played Final Fantasy 12 you can get a taste of what's actually going on with the AI as it has a system that allows you to set up various scenarios for your team mates to trigger during different combat situations, while simplified it shows potential even back then for much more sophisticated systems that I believe game's like dragon's dogma capitalized on. I have a friend that played dragon's dogma and he is pretty bad at rpg or games with combat in general (only plays driving games), but even he could finally get around to downing epic beast like the chimera and the drake. Even better he did it in a different way with completely different role and tactics. I am more direct damage magic and mitigation while he decided to go with being more evasive and healer heavy and only used physical ranged. Is it because the game was easy? No it was because he adapted and he had fun doing it. It may have taken him much longer than me, but he didn't give up because it was hard. The AI was smart and engaging and that's what keeps people playing. It doesn't matter if the player that's worse off takes longer to succeed or if they need a partner to help them along when you could do it solo.
I am very hopeful for EQNext.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
...With the advent of the purported AI that EverQuest Next will have, will PVE players find themselves at the mercy of NPCs that do anything to survive.
...
This is the way it should always have been. In the past because of mechanic limitations, sloppy-development. or just plain pathetic ideals from development teams, many many MMOs have enemies that are basically just glorified loot-holders.
It will be interested to see how it turns out, but hopefully the AI is something that will be challenging enough to warrant some thought when it comes to combat, even after 1000's of hours of play.
Everyone here is assuming that this "more advanced AI" is just going to apply to threat mechanics to make it slightly more complicated. What the devs have actually said, though, is that this storybricks-based AI will apply to everything about the NPCs. Each NPC will have a set of motivations and act based on that (both in and out of combat). So the example of the bear using these advanced tactics to try and target down the wizard while ignoring the warrior is not how it will be. A bear will be as smart as a bear should be. An enemy elf, however, will be much smarter. The elf may not be much stronger, but the fight will be way harder.
What this boils down to is widely divergent strategies, depending on the mob. I'm thinking that starting out, monsters you fight are going to be very stupid (animals and whatnot). As you level up, though, enemies get progressively smarter, leading to more and more difficult fights.
What's cool is that the difficulty of a fight isn't as clear-cut as a level number next to his name. The intelligence of the mob is also a factor that you will have to take into consideration.
I think its going to be very exciting and people are going to have to actually think about what they are doing!
Pretty simple .. NO trinity so to speak = combat must be adjusted to the weakest link = weakest link is the cloth squishy.. = therefore, mobs must be nerfed so squiskies can survive a fight = zerg fest.. = boring as shit.. so much for smart AI's.. LOL
Originally posted by Rydeson Pretty simple .. NO trinity so to speak = combat must be adjusted to the weakest link = weakest link is the cloth squishy.. = therefore, mobs must be nerfed so squiskies can survive a fight = zerg fest.. = boring as shit.. so much for smart AI's.. LOL
Cloth is weakest in trinity because tanks take all the damage. Throw out the trinity and you throw out clothies dying when the wind hits them. Use doge/movement, terrain, defense abilities, etc to stay alive and fighting. Cloth usually are DPS doing high damage. Doesn't mean this will translate into EQN. Wizard might hit as hard as a Bard, but both will do it in their own way. Nothing causing a mob to rush a Wizard, simply because it is a caster instead of a more melee/armored class. I usually play a cloth class and have never had a hard time staying a live in PVP fights. Think smarter then your opponent, not make them into weaklings.
Originally posted by Rydeson Pretty simple .. NO trinity so to speak = combat must be adjusted to the weakest link = weakest link is the cloth squishy.. = therefore, mobs must be nerfed so squiskies can survive a fight = zerg fest.. = boring as shit.. so much for smart AI's.. LOL
Yep, because every class will have 1 ability and won't be able to move during combat.
Today's modern players? You are referring to WoW refugees? Not all players are like that, and I certainly hope that we have players that have at least slight intelligence and are able to adapt to "harder" content.
With that said, if EQNext is going for a niche market, then it doesn't matter if the general populace thinks its too hard. It only matters what the target audience thinks... Sandbox players relish new interactions, and being able to adapt, and some (look up Eve news), have placed months and years of planning into some extraordinary, and extraordinarily hard encounters, done by players themselves. So much so, that they had to slow down time in game for the servers to be able to handle the phenomenal loads that were placed on it by the thousands of players and ships participating in it.
TL:DR: So I would be more concerned about what players can do more than what an "enhanced AI" can do.
There's no way they are going for a niche market. This game will be very casual friendly to get the largest share of market, adding in some pve/pvp sandbox features to get those two groups and whatever else they can think of to throw in to get more peeps hooked to keep CS going. And when u can buy things to use in pve/pvp sandbox-people will line up to do so.
As to the AI, as they are going to cater to casual play, they will not make AI much more difficult than modern games, just add a few twists. If it does end up being to hard for them, they will tone it down to keep the casual market. Doubtful we will see any earth shattering new AI.
I think it is EQ fans they have to worry about. Based on my time on these forums, the typical EQ fan:
(1) Is almost paralyzed and unable to do almost anything requiring dexterity.
(2) Has diminished mental capacity and doesn't like choices.
(3) Has lots of friends to help make up for their obvious deficiencies.
(4) Wants a game that plays to their strength. i.e., wants a game that rewards incompetent play but lots of friends.
Sorry if this is hitting too close to home for some of you!
You are really an idiot if you think this way. It just seems like you are trying to lash out like a child because OP used modern players as the target of post, probably because modern games are much easier than most of the originals. Their is no game that is too difficult to learn for anyone if they choose to put in the time. People play different games or styles because they have that preference, not because any game is so incredibly difficult. You have no idea why people play certain games or prefer a different style of combat.
And as I've said, EQN AI might have some little gimmicks added to make it appear more difficult but gamers (modern or EQ vets), will have no trouble adapting to it if they choose to. Even if they could make it as clever as a human, gamers have been pvping since day one, so really, how tough can they make it.
Comments
I would like to comment on the assumption of players figuring out everything and of it being plastered all across the internet.
I believe that this will happen. But I also believe that with incredible depth it can be a moot point.
Once again I call upon my EVE experience. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING about EVE is online, posted, theorycrafted and set up for you from loadouts to implants and stat allocation to EVEMON which tells you exactly what to do and when to do it to advance your character.
However, this requires an ENORMOUS amount of interest and research and time and, here is the difficult part, reading on the part of the player.
Would anyone like to discuss the merits of this type of system? What if EQN is more spreadsheet/theorycrafting and less button mashing and zerging?
Keep in mind we do not know what the death penalty is, we may want to research every last detail of our build and what we intend to do before we embark on a mission or quest or other activity. I am not talking, "where do I go for this quest?" I am talking, "Does Arcane Bolt do enough damage to elemental giants for me to use this build while I farm elemental crystals for my crystal chandelier in my house or guild hall, or do I need to do something else before I die and waste my time and materials?"
This was a satire article.
agree
EQ2 fan sites
Yeah, this.
We've seen a small tech demo in action. That's it. We don't have anything else to go on yet.
To me the answer to the OP's question is very obvious - No, because Sony won't let that happen.
The biggest disappointment to me from the reveal was how clearly Sony is aiming at a mainstream audience. I see some people say things like "well if this is a niche title ...". Personally I don't see Sony aiming for a niche audience (and reading between the lines in the reveal confirmed it to me). They want huge numbers of players, so the difficulty level will be adjusted to the lowest common denominator.
Currently all of today's big developers are stuck on the idea that they can make games that "everyone will love". I pray for the day that they wake up from this dream. I'm sure it will mean 90% of them will switch to making "casual" games, but at least it will mean that there will be the occasional game that is aimed at one of the niche markets I belong to.
I really don't think SoE is going for an EVE like level of complexity though. I just don't see it. But, if it did, my interest in the game would probably triple.
There really is no such thing as Emergent AI. It's BS. and I know we are talking semantics, but it's still misleading. It's a buzzword they are applying to using scripting to a greater level than had been done before. But I've always felt that MMO mob AI was kept stupidly toned down and that it could always be used better. I think most people have the idea backwards. The Trinity didn't evolve so that players could deal with the limitations of mob AI. The Trinity evolved so the Mob AI could deal with the limitations of the players. This isn't going to change. Many are saying no more trinity, but that's going to be the 1st thing players will attempt to re create once EQN releases. "How can I make myself more tanky?" "What do I need to do to make the mobs want to hit me more?" In GW2, starting to revive any NPC or player might as well be considered as a taunt mechanic.
I hope the AI makes the game difficult, and not the lazy way Diablo 3 made it difficult, just making monsters hit harder and harder.
Would be cool if skilled players could solo difficult monsters like in Tera, by dodging attacks etc
Just the ones that hate pvp for being too competitive!
Players aren't really supposed to lose in general PvE content. The mob's job isn't really to stop a player, it's to provide a source of progression resources. There's a bit more to it than that, the player is supposed to get used to the game's rules and the general theme of the game, but at a basic level the game is supposed to provide a challenge, but not failure. Players are not divided into "Successes" and "Failures" It's not competition, it's entertainment.
PvP has a different purpose. It really does exist to divide players into "Successes" and "Failures". Sometimes that dividing factor is some built in skill of the player, and sometimes it's just how long the player has played the game, but the filtering effect exists. It's not entertainment, it's competition.
It's been possible for awhile now for combat AI to always make the right decisions in a fight, to never make a mistake in a fight and to always beat the player when possible without resorting to huge pools of hit points. Especially in games that involve tab-targeting and active skills as the primary combat mechanics. However, that's not why the combat AI exists. It's not there to always beat the player. It's there to provide entertainment, and a progression path. So the advanced AI isn't going to be like fighting other players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree. The trend lately is to make things easy for the players. Let's hope Sony doesn't go this route but I'm not holding my breath.
Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Thomas Jefferson
As a Software Engineer I can tell you for a FACT that they cannot produce an AI "advanced" enough to fulfill their claims.
To me, from a professional side of things, it seems as if this whole A.I business is just a giant cop-out to avoid putting work into critical systems and designs that would otherwise allow a Tank/Healer/Dps/Control system to exist (ironic that it is called Trinity when, in fact, Control has always been there since EQ).
TLDR: No
But this is the route that most companies are going and complaining about it won't change it. The difficult stuff is in the end game now because the hardcore players get through the leveling content quickly and gaming companies don't want casuals or less-skilled gamers to ragequit due to game difficulty and subsequently lose at least half of their customer base in the process. There are just too many posters on this message board that just won't accept a diversity of skills and time commitment in today's player base. Yes, there are now bad players, yes there are now players who have other hobbies or responsibilities besides gaming and only have an hour of time to play a day. Just learn to deal with it.
They will do just like we did in 1999.
http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20130520
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The player base will accept more difficult encounters if the difficulty is slowly scaled up. The problem with modern MMORPGs, is the scaling is way off. You blow through the first 9/10ths of the game like its biking downhill, and then you hit a small ramp that leads right into a brick wall.
I think all the soloing is to blame for this myself. It makes it difficult to ease people into challenging groups and raids; because the first part of the game is always so easy. You can't make 40+ different classes capable of soloing efficiently - without dumbing down the mobs to be generically easy. All you can do is make it take longer to grind levels (who wants to play Lineage 2?).
By the time these solo players make it to the end game, they demand easy groups, easy raids, ect. What is left for the dedicated players is a very small, radically more difficult piece of content for them to chew on for a few months. Then they nerf it; in addition to all the free gear otherwise trivializes it.
Rinse and repeat a few times a year.
I think it is very possible for the new AI to provide challenging game play. I also believe it will be possible for players to adapt to these challenges. Dragon's dogma is a great example of smart AI that works off different triggers to provide a challenging fight. One example would be fighting chimeras. Targeting a chimera's goat head triggers aggressive action against the attacker as the goat provides it's only form of magic casting. The snake tail uses it's tail to poison high damage resistant target or to interrupt casters. The lion keeps it's movement mostly sporadic as it tries to poison itself so the 3 heads can do the most damage. Taunts only work if the melee is doing more damage than the casters' or no one is healing. If ranged dps / caster want to raise the likelihood of a taunt they have to break line of sight of the chimera. If that still isn't enough the tankier ally can wedge themselves in between the beast or they can jump on top of the beast which draws high aggro but leaves them prone to being bucked, trampled or assailed by the goat and snake. Night time offers different scenarios altogether as the chimera is more prone to ambush his prey and employ terrain such as huge boulders for loss of sight.
Another example would be the drake. The drake has different triggers while flying and while fighting on land. He employs silences for caster, doom/ death magic mechanics for over aggressive allies or allies that the drake really wants to single out (stop the sorcerer from nailing him in his heart for the 19484728 time with those giant ice berg spells), if he senses he is losing the ground war he will take to the air and assault you with fire. Drakes also use flight for misdirection to charge behind you defense line. Taunts again can't just be spammed( can't just have a healer spamming in his face while the warrior is yelling at him). Tanks can take active roles again to jump on the dragon face and claw at his eyes etc to provoke the dragon instead of letting him steam role the mage setting up a kill shot. Drakes are exceptionally smart so I'll stop there but the AI used allows for many layers of approach, combat, and tactics.
If you've ever played Final Fantasy 12 you can get a taste of what's actually going on with the AI as it has a system that allows you to set up various scenarios for your team mates to trigger during different combat situations, while simplified it shows potential even back then for much more sophisticated systems that I believe game's like dragon's dogma capitalized on. I have a friend that played dragon's dogma and he is pretty bad at rpg or games with combat in general (only plays driving games), but even he could finally get around to downing epic beast like the chimera and the drake. Even better he did it in a different way with completely different role and tactics. I am more direct damage magic and mitigation while he decided to go with being more evasive and healer heavy and only used physical ranged. Is it because the game was easy? No it was because he adapted and he had fun doing it. It may have taken him much longer than me, but he didn't give up because it was hard. The AI was smart and engaging and that's what keeps people playing. It doesn't matter if the player that's worse off takes longer to succeed or if they need a partner to help them along when you could do it solo.
I am very hopeful for EQNext.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
This is the way it should always have been. In the past because of mechanic limitations, sloppy-development. or just plain pathetic ideals from development teams, many many MMOs have enemies that are basically just glorified loot-holders.
It will be interested to see how it turns out, but hopefully the AI is something that will be challenging enough to warrant some thought when it comes to combat, even after 1000's of hours of play.
Everyone here is assuming that this "more advanced AI" is just going to apply to threat mechanics to make it slightly more complicated. What the devs have actually said, though, is that this storybricks-based AI will apply to everything about the NPCs. Each NPC will have a set of motivations and act based on that (both in and out of combat). So the example of the bear using these advanced tactics to try and target down the wizard while ignoring the warrior is not how it will be. A bear will be as smart as a bear should be. An enemy elf, however, will be much smarter. The elf may not be much stronger, but the fight will be way harder.
What this boils down to is widely divergent strategies, depending on the mob. I'm thinking that starting out, monsters you fight are going to be very stupid (animals and whatnot). As you level up, though, enemies get progressively smarter, leading to more and more difficult fights.
What's cool is that the difficulty of a fight isn't as clear-cut as a level number next to his name. The intelligence of the mob is also a factor that you will have to take into consideration.
I think its going to be very exciting and people are going to have to actually think about what they are doing!
Cloth is weakest in trinity because tanks take all the damage. Throw out the trinity and you throw out clothies dying when the wind hits them. Use doge/movement, terrain, defense abilities, etc to stay alive and fighting. Cloth usually are DPS doing high damage. Doesn't mean this will translate into EQN. Wizard might hit as hard as a Bard, but both will do it in their own way. Nothing causing a mob to rush a Wizard, simply because it is a caster instead of a more melee/armored class. I usually play a cloth class and have never had a hard time staying a live in PVP fights. Think smarter then your opponent, not make them into weaklings.
Yep, because every class will have 1 ability and won't be able to move during combat.
Modern players will adapt.
We will judge the game based on what it is.
I think it is EQ fans they have to worry about. Based on my time on these forums, the typical EQ fan:
(1) Is almost paralyzed and unable to do almost anything requiring dexterity.
(2) Has diminished mental capacity and doesn't like choices.
(3) Has lots of friends to help make up for their obvious deficiencies.
(4) Wants a game that plays to their strength. i.e., wants a game that rewards incompetent play but lots of friends.
Sorry if this is hitting too close to home for some of you!
There's no way they are going for a niche market. This game will be very casual friendly to get the largest share of market, adding in some pve/pvp sandbox features to get those two groups and whatever else they can think of to throw in to get more peeps hooked to keep CS going. And when u can buy things to use in pve/pvp sandbox-people will line up to do so.
As to the AI, as they are going to cater to casual play, they will not make AI much more difficult than modern games, just add a few twists. If it does end up being to hard for them, they will tone it down to keep the casual market. Doubtful we will see any earth shattering new AI.
You are really an idiot if you think this way. It just seems like you are trying to lash out like a child because OP used modern players as the target of post, probably because modern games are much easier than most of the originals. Their is no game that is too difficult to learn for anyone if they choose to put in the time. People play different games or styles because they have that preference, not because any game is so incredibly difficult. You have no idea why people play certain games or prefer a different style of combat.
And as I've said, EQN AI might have some little gimmicks added to make it appear more difficult but gamers (modern or EQ vets), will have no trouble adapting to it if they choose to. Even if they could make it as clever as a human, gamers have been pvping since day one, so really, how tough can they make it.