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SOE should be learning from their own mistakes a loooooooooooong time ago!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by BearKnight Originally posted by donpopuki -Action oriented combat: why is this bad? You can't have challenging action combat? Not all action combat is created equal. -Horizontal progression: no levels but they have "tiers" so we don't know what that is. -Removal of the Trinity: they claim the emergent ai requires more complex group machics that go beyond the simple trinity. -Public Questing: why is this bad? -Casual gameplay: again why is this bad? I can't play for 8 hrs everyday and most people can't as well. They should however put some hardcore elements in addition to casual play styles. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Both can exist in the same game. Also not enough info concerning this subject.
-Action Combat: because real action combat doesn't have psuedo-auto targeting mechanisms built behind them. In other words you're not actually swinging that sword. When you swing the game checks to see if anything is in range of your weapon's attack range and hits them if they're in a specific arc. This is called "Fake Action Combat". It's a way to fake action combat, but still having the original behind the scenes systems of a normal MMO. It's also REALLY cheesy and cheap feeling. You also don't get the benefits of a REAL action combat system (something Black Desert is doing). FYI: Real action combat games are Darkfall and Mortal Online, do you like those games? I don't.....
-Horizontal Progression: it isn't actually progression, but is a carrot-on-a-stick to keep you playing. You actually have nothing to look forward to except more damage/hp/armor from better gear (since horizontal progression is gear based in EQ:N). This excels in super-casual games where you can log in for an hour, do a bunch of quests for quick progression gains, and then log out for the day. Boring....
-Removal of Trinity: As a Software Engineer I can tell you that their "Emergent AI" is bollox, simple and to the point. They do NOT have people from MIT working for them in an Advanced AI workshop, which is what this would require, and even MIT hasn't made this advanced of an AI that can be used on thousands of mobs at once per server. It just isn't going to happen. This is just a PR-spin being used to avoid Trinity, but the reality is that people LIKE HAVING ROLES. Trinity isn't a bad thing, so why do you want to spit on it so badly?
-Public Questing: Everything becomes a zerg, no challenge, no thought, just spam spam spam attack keys, spam rezes, zerg zerg zerg. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING.
-Casual Gameplay: is always bad in any serious tone. You cannot have quality meaningful gameplay in a Casual oriented product. The cornerstone of Casual Gameplay are games on the iPad. Go play some of those and let me know how EQ:N will work out with those kinds of systems in place.
Google Albion Online and after you're done look up the difference between a shitty game and a excellent one, odds are the excellent one balanced casual traits with hardcore ones (even the Demon Souls series does this by having a not so sadistic tutorial).
Originally posted by Vutar not following them down the same path to failure. GW2's numbers are down another 20 percent. A year ago this is the game that was going to be "the future of MMOs." It's CEO wanted to compete with WoW. Today, servers are empty and its remaining players are calling for merges. The pillars of GW2 were the following: -Action oriented combat GW2 would have never gotten to it's initial watermark if the action combat was the problem. Not related. -Horizontal progression No, level scaling is not horizontal progression. GW2 has levels, EQN will not. GW2 had level scaling but it was still too close to the "norm" for people to play it differently. Tiers in EQN are not the same thing either and it's spread across 40 classes. It's more akin to WoW's raiding gear tiers than GW2. -Removal of the Trinity No, EQN is changing the trinity. -Public Questing Does GW2 PQ change over time to be a permanent part of the game? Rallying Calls are a lot different than PQ or the living story that GW2 has. It's in the videos. I will say that even having times events is better than quest givers. Thank goodness EQN will not have ? or !. -Casual gameplay I'm 100% certain that some, or a lot, of the content will be casual. Not having casual content would be an actual mistake rather than an assumed one. The term "casual" is indicative of how much time needs to be spent at one time to complete a task. You can have hard content that is "casual". You can have an epic questline that is casual. A raid that takes 3-4 hours to get through? That's not casual. Rallying Calls would be considered "casual" if they play out over the course of 1-2 months. That is what everything in the game was built on. EQnext has 4 of those 5 confirmed. The casual gameplay is the only part that isn't yet, my guess is that will be in too. So what is going to make EQnext different than GW2? If the core of the game is the same, why are people expecting a different result than GW2? You can pile all the fluff on top of core elements you want but if that core is not worth sticking around for, no one will.
This dicussion cannot continue if you are seriously asking this question. Info on EQN is lacking but there is enough info to know the answer.
Originally posted by Vutar not following them down the same path to failure. GW2's numbers are down another 20 percent. A year ago this is the game that was going to be "the future of MMOs." It's CEO wanted to compete with WoW. Today, servers are empty and its remaining players are calling for merges. The pillars of GW2 were the following: -Action oriented combat -Horizontal progression -Removal of the Trinity -Public Questing -Casual gameplay
It looks like EQN share most of those core features with GW2, except GW2 don't have an Horizontal progression.
If you want to see how an Horizontal progression works, check EVE, that's Horizontal progression, and that's pretty awesome.
GW2 is just the standard Vertical progression..............
EQN has a semi-horizontal progression, since it has Tiers (which are Macro Levels)
Originally posted by Vutar not following them down the same path to failure. GW2's numbers are down another 20 percent. A year ago this is the game that was going to be "the future of MMOs." It's CEO wanted to compete with WoW. Today, servers are empty and its remaining players are calling for merges. The pillars of GW2 were the following: -Action oriented combat -Horizontal progression -Removal of the Trinity -Public Questing -Casual gameplay That is what everything in the game was built on. EQnext has 4 of those 5 confirmed. The casual gameplay is the only part that isn't yet, my guess is that will be in too. So what is going to make EQnext different than GW2? If the core of the game is the same, why are people expecting a different result than GW2? You can pile all the fluff on top of core elements you want but if that core is not worth sticking around for, no one will.
Who says they haven't learned from ANet? Just because GW2 did it, doesn't mean they did it the only way possible or CORRECTLY. Stop whining and wait and see what happens. This could be awesome or it could back an utter failure. Only time will tell.
GW2 isn't exactly failing.
Some servers are noticeably thinner, while others are more crowded. See for yourself, Guest on the full ones. Players are shifting around a bit.
None of your bullet points are a failure but a design choice.
I personally prefer more traditional MMORPG combat. Others like Action
I prefer a moderatly reasonable vertical progression to a flat horizontal one. Others like to know they don't have to play catch up if they take time off.
I prefer the trinity, There are others that don't
I like public quests. Never really thought anyone would think they don't belong in an MMO. But OK, sure I suppose there are those who don't.
I don't like casual gameplay. Many do.
All your bullet points are subjective preferences and are not really niche. There are significant markets for those features.
Now, what contributes to success or failure is how well they are designed and implemented. But certainly, not the decision to use them.
I don't think the discussion should be how is it like GW2, that has kinda been pointed out a million times and is pretty obvious to anyone who has played it, but how can they improve on it in this game.
Big problem with GW2 is it copied its main mechanics from MOBA's. MOBA combat lasts seconds, MMO combat lasts minutes. Once you start using the same 4 skills for minutes on end, you realise that what you are doing is pretty basic. MOBA keeps itself fresh and interesting by offering different item builds 100's of characters and PVP is the best AI there is. Because the combat lasts seconds, perfect timing and map awareness seperates out the good players from the bad.
Guess the question is how is this going to be made more complex (simply better than GW2) by the Devs? Would like to see some information that says THIS will make combat better THIS will give you a reason to lace up your platemail and venture out into our world every day.
So far I am still waiting for them to announce THIS, whatever it is that will seperate it and make it better. So far I think they are just flat out fooling themselves.
Originally posted by Vutar The pillars of GW2 were the following: -Action oriented combat: True, not that I find anything wrong with AC, more so I don't think GW2 pulled it off perfectly. -Horizontal progression: False. GW2 is Vertical as it gets. -Removal of the Trinity: True, but GW2 also removed roles for the most part. Most seem to go Defense "Bunker" or Offense "Glass Cannon" or in between. You can't really play a "healer" or "tank" or "support" in the traditional sense as EQN appears to offer. Along with removing the trinity, they forgot to make better AI which is the whole reason for the trinity. GW2 classes are one man armies, self healing, self rezing, dps machines. We have very little info on how important healing, CC, rezing, and general support will play into EQN, but with 40+ classes, I can assume there will be Bards, Clerics, Shaman, Enchanters in some fashion. -Public Questing: Besides EQN not focusing on the Themepark quest system like GW2, it will also have much more dynamic events. GW2 is better then most games, but are still fairly static. -Casual gameplay: Games are what you make of them, if you spend 20 hours a day in GW2, that is fairly "hardcore" to me. Maybe you didn't PVP, but there is room for a lot of good "hardcore" battles. So what is going to make EQnext different than GW2? If the core of the game is the same, why are people expecting a different result than GW2? You can pile all the fluff on top of core elements you want but if that core is not worth sticking around for, no one will.
GW2's core is PVP. End game is all about WvWvW or Arenas at any time. Many people do not even level, they stay in the Arenas forever (took me quite a while to level up, too much fun in Arenas).
Yes it has PVE end game, but no real "hardcore" raids like WoW status. From my experience, most are playing to fight other players, not brain dead AI (GW2 AI is not remotely smart).
So far for EQN we have many "end games." Crafting was said to be the Soul of the game. Landmark and building within EQN are a game on their own. Rally Calls (maybe glorified public quests) will be more dynamic and longer then what we have seen in other games. Having multiple layers of a huge world that changes over time is new (tell a friend about that great dungeon you found yesterday, might be gone today).
Multi-Classing is a huge deal and nothing like GW2. 40+ classes to unlock, "Tier Up," and equip through crafting.
I'm sorry, but you and others seem to be so stuck on one thing that you can't see what EQN will bring. All I get from these posts are "OMG the Lion King swung a hammer in a cone without a target or healer and hit all the mobs so it is just like Disney and GW2".
EQN Pillars: Multi-Classing (Not in GW2), Destruction (Nope), Permanent Change (Nope), Emergent AI (Heck No), Consequences (Nope again).
Toss in Building, Crafting, Rally Calls, Huge world with at least 4 Tiers to explore, sure there is more.
Lastly, we have no clue about PVP beyond there will be PVP. Safe to assume there will be player build cities, castles, homes and we will be able to declare war on one another in some capacity. While GW2 WvWvW isn't terrible, it is fairly unoriginal and just a huge game of Tag like most PVP games without much real impact or consequence.
Hopefully EQN offers PVP that has some impact and meaning, beyond mindless killing and playing Tag all day long. We shall see. But even if it is great, I doubt it will be the "end game" or reason to Tier up as it is in GW2.
EQN offers many layers (literally even) to do so many diverse types of game play. Combat is just what aspect of that. Sure there is surface similarities to GW2, but that is because games from this point on will be similar just as games in the past were.
Wildstar and ESO both have action combat and limited skill bars. Are they too GW2 clones? GW2 is a great game for what it is, but it isn't that original. Times have changed and the dated systems of the past just don't cut it anymore.
If you can't get accept where mmos are going, you aren't going to have much luck finding a game you enjoy. Even FFXIV AAR is changing it up, but is more of an in between type game bridging newer games with the old. Maybe you should check it out?
Can we stop the Casual slander of the player base. Causal players means to play in a way that is comfortable to that player and that goes for people who raid they are comfortable with that set up thats there casual play.
As for EQ:N learning from a-nets mistakes that could be said about every game on the market including EQ1, UO, DaOC and so on they all have there good and bad parts some more then others but thats just it I don't see people grip on a game more then GW2 well maybe WoW but the point is even ESO, FFXIV, Camalot:U and many more even EQ:N will have its wrong doing and the reason why there to many freaking people with there own likes and dislikes its just what and who we all are.
So yeah we all have our own opinions on things yippee does it mean a game failed cause it didn't have 8 billion freaking people playing no it does not it means the game was not made to your ideal way it was made the way the developer made it. Its like when I used to cook and no matter how many times I made a person a steak it was never to there liking but more to my own but with the diversity the gaming community has become no wonder the companies are going the route they are the old players are not there only crowd now they have more young and old players to make happy and you can't.
To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.
Nice post, good point.
Maybe we could limit the "zomg EQN is GW2 clone" threads to a single one... ?
We know nothing yet, so all those discussions are pure speculation anyway.
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Originally posted by Nadia you are stretching the no trinity of GW2 = EQN example: EQN -- no dedicated roles (but i'm expecting healers and tanks) Good luck with that.. During all those panels at SOE Live, I didn't hear anything about a true "healer", and as for tanks, it was said that TAUNTING was completely removed from the game.. You can't be a true tank if you can't hold agro.. Oh Sure you can wear plate and pretend to be one with some personal mitigation, but unless they are going to give you stuns and whatnots wtihout any cool downs, It very much sounds like zergfest as GW2 is.. GW2 -- no healers http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/283647/New-Interview-Dungeons-Info-on-Healer-More.html Will there is a class that will be better able to heal his allies? A type class trainer? Well, I can say that no profession is known healer in Guild Wars 2
That is not so.. GW2 does have professions that TRY to play as a healer, such as the elementalist and engineer.. But as I said before, any game where classes toss around bandages and band aids as healing.. DOES NOT make you a healer.. I don't see EQN doing much different then what GW2 did.. Each class is going to be 90% dps..
Where is my kiting? or charming?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."-Luke McKinney
Let SOE continue on in the hope they can create a level of AI that would make the game fun and not deteriorate into a zerg or exploitfest. By the year's end they'll figure out that their AI isn't as revolutionary as they thought, they'll "change their mind" and save face saying its because "the fans have spoken" and put back in a traditional aggro system based largely around traditional roles.
Going to go ahead and call it here on august 16th, 2013 so I can quote it to you later.
WOW.... the lies are misinformation are strong with this one, Actually just a quick trip to the gw2 forms and after reading a few recient interviews with the gw2 develepment team, Shows that gw2 is quite the success with talks of opening more servers to handle the influx of new members. Actually anet released a report not long ago showing that even a year after release, and given the fact that it is not a subscription MMO still 2.5 million players "casually" log in at least once a week to have some fun.
But i will agree with you on what the PILLARS of gw2's core gameplay is. Where else are you going to find a non subscription MMO with a cash shop that you can actually purchase cash shop items with in game currency? Every item for the past 12 mo that has been released on the cash shop i have not spend a RL penny on, but i have used in game currency to purchase.
Where else are you going to find a non subscription MMO with a cash shop that you can actually purchase cash shop items with in game currency? Every item for the past 12 mo that has been released on the cash shop i have not spend a RL penny on, but i have used in game currency to purchase.
So where do they make their money if people don't spend real life money in the cash shop?
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick You are never going to get a perfect game. Learn to appreciate each one for what it is.
Words of wisdom.
I understand OP doesn't like somethings about GW2 but to call it 'mistakes' is absurd.