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Eldar: Class Speculation

quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon

Fellow Farseers it's time to put your pointy hats on, dust off your runes of divination and try and divine what the skeins of fate hold in store for your race.

 

I'll try and get this party started with some suitably wild speculation/wishful thinking of my own.

 

These are the assumptions I'll be working from:

 

  • For starters I'm assuming that the overall design philosophy for the Eldar will be as a highly mobile, highly specialised force that will tend to excel at swift surgical attacks behind enemy lines rather than being brute force front line brawlers, this is based on little more than knowing that the developers are familiar with the lore and have a good grasp of military strategy.
  • Also I'm expecting the Eldar forces to be used partly to counter balance the Male dominated battlefield of the game, so that will factor into my unit choices and I'll include a bias towards female unit types. 
  • Next I'm expecting there to be a general format of Assault, Support, All Purpose and Heavy as basic character types.
  • Finally I'm discounting Harlequins, Corsairs and Exodites as unit types. Corsairs and Exodites as they aren't really included as a part of the Tabletop game yet even if they are a solid part of the lore, and Harlequins as they aren't really Craftworld Eldar, but rather a sub faction and may be added later. 
  • I'm hoping that Guardians will be represented in the game, but as npcs for reasons of balance.

 

 

Assault.

The choice here is pretty binary between Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees, Wraithblades may be a temporary option as a Terminator Armor equivalent, but it's not really a bread and butter unit. 

Scorpions would be a great choice simply for their stealth and ability to infiltrate, but I'm giving benefit of the doubt to Howling Banshees as they offer another female play option (Eldar are an equal opportunities employer). 

 

Support.

Well this is a no brainer, it's going to be either Warlocks or Farseers, with a female Avatar choice as a play option.

I for one would love to see a Seer council take to the field.

 

Heavy.

There are 4 choices here:

Fire Dragons (yes I know they are Elites, but I'm basing the classification on their weapon types as much as anything). I consider them unlikely as they are equipped with such short range weapons and lack any really characterful unit abilities.

Dark Reapers, a very characterful part of any Eldar force, but frankly too slow and ponderous to fit with the idea of the 'swift surgical' Eldar force. They are more suited to a real slugfest.

Wraithguard. Like Wraithblades they are more likely to be a rarer terminator style calldown rather than a more common unit.

and lastly,

Rangers.

Now rangers aren't really tank buster types, but they do fit the mold of a stealthy killy, long ranged unit and are really well suited for the special forces style operations.

 

All Purpose

There is only one unit that I feel best Exemplifies this role and that is the Dire Avengers and I really feel that an Eldar army without these shuriken catapault wielding nutters is like a body without a backbone.

 

Unfortunately this leaves me with a bit of a problem. No Jumppacks!

 

It may be that the Eldar will get a fifth class allowing them to field either Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders (please let it be spiders, Hawks are naff in comparison!) or it may be that they won't follow the 4 battlefield roles as closely as say the Marines do.

 

Marines for instance can carry a wide range of different weapon types greatly changing their role on the battlefield, whereas an Eldar aspect warrior is far more restricted in what he/she can carry, so it is entirely possible that an Aspect Warrior class may be able to specialise in a number of different directions allowing several aspects to be represented by a single class type.

 

One option here that is in keeping with the lore is for the Eldar may begin with 3 classes representing broad unit types.

The Path of the Seer, The Path of the Warrior and the Path of the Wanderer.

The Path of the Seer encompasses Warlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers e.t.c.

The Path of the Warrior encompasses the Aspects of Khaine.

The Path of the Wanderer encompasses Rangers, Exodites and Corsairs.

 

For the Path of the Warrior for instance you may begin with a Dire Avenger and get the option of unlocking the ability to become a more specialised  Banshee or a Warp Spider effectively allowing these three classes to be aspects of a single broad class.

 

The Problem with this is that while the Seers have plenty of psyker powers to pad out their progression and could possibly branch out into Spirit Seers, Farseers or even Bone Seers, and the Path of the Warrior has all the Aspects to choose from, there is really very little development options for Rangers other than to become Pathfinders, which are just slightly better Rangers.

I'd still bet good money on Rangers making it to the unit roster though as they are as Eldar as pointy ears.

 

So my final call would be:

Warlocks (becoming -Seers)

Dire Avengers (becoming - Howling Banshees or Warp Spiders)

Rangers (becoming Pathfinders)

 

Plus a variety of other unit types as timed resource costed call downs (Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Jetbikes, vehicles)

 

 

Anyway those are my ideas, let's hear yours :)

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Comments

  • BeerSamuraiBeerSamurai Hillsborough, CAPosts: 69Member

    I would think for Eldar, you'd want each one to fill multiple roles. Since they need to strike fast and hard, I'm sure when they attack, they make sure every role is fulfilled by at least one member of the strikeforce, even if said individual has to take multiple roles.

    For Assault would think Swooping Hawks'd be more appropriate as they not only are capable of getting in close to the enemy fast, but they basically act as assault marines, able to scale walls and towers without having to break down the defenses, and still have decent balance between range and melee.  This may also help for scouting as it gives them a higher vantage to look at enemy emplacements.

     

    Support I'd agree and take some sort of psyker, this would allow many different roles from ranged damage, to helping teammates by healing or simply opening 'temporary' webway gates for them to fast travel through.  As for gender, I don't know if gender locking is the best idea.  Yeah letting them choose a female is a good idea, given how the other factions don't have any, but still gender locking...not confident about it.

     

    For Heavy why not the Shadow Spectres?  They're highly mobile, capable of limited stealth, and have anti-vehicle capabilities.  Not to mention they're a nice bit of eye candy.  They'd be like the Guild Wars mesmer, if mesmers had Javelin missiles.

    And lore wise, they were just rediscovered so it is within reason to see them on the battlefield.

     

    For the general class, I don't think Dire Avengers would be best.  I mean yeah they form the backbone of an Eldar army, but the system designed behind Aspects kinda makes the Dire Avengers a dead end.  I dunno what could go in here honestly...aside from rangers or guardians.

     

    And for vehicles...eh you might want to stick with tanks from the Forgeworld or the War Walker, as Wraithlords and Wraithguards kinda need you to be...dead first.

    Dreah I'm yunk, wazzit matter to you?

  • DagdaDagda Pickens, SCPosts: 27Member

     

    "And for vehicles...eh you might want to stick with tanks from the Forgeworld or the War Walker, as Wraithlords and Wraithguards kinda need you to be...dead first."

    As far as fluff goes you are right on the money, but Wraithlords, dreadnoughts and the like are so iconic within the 40k universe I can't see them being ignored. 

    image

  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc PinheiralPosts: 351Member
    ranger, banshee, fire dragon and warlock
  • SavijSavij NottPosts: 341Member
    Originally posted by Dagda

     

    "And for vehicles...eh you might want to stick with tanks from the Forgeworld or the War Walker, as Wraithlords and Wraithguards kinda need you to be...dead first."

    As far as fluff goes you are right on the money, but Wraithlords, dreadnoughts and the like are so iconic within the 40k universe I can't see them being ignored. 

     

    from russian Q/A with David Ghozland:
    Question: Will there be dreadnoughts and will they be playable?

    Answer: Yes the mighty Dreadnoughts will be playable, with restrictions.

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  • mintycmintyc caernarfonPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Savij
    Originally posted by Dagda

     

    "And for vehicles...eh you might want to stick with tanks from the Forgeworld or the War Walker, as Wraithlords and Wraithguards kinda need you to be...dead first."

    As far as fluff goes you are right on the money, but Wraithlords, dreadnoughts and the like are so iconic within the 40k universe I can't see them being ignored. 

     

    from russian Q/A with David Ghozland:
    Question: Will there be dreadnoughts and will they be playable?

    Answer: Yes the mighty Dreadnoughts will be playable, with restrictions.

    after seeing this two words come to mind and those two words are.........DREAD CRASH!!!!1

     

    .....sorry, i have to go lie down now.

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dagda

     

    "And for vehicles...eh you might want to stick with tanks from the Forgeworld or the War Walker, as Wraithlords and Wraithguards kinda need you to be...dead first."

    As far as fluff goes you are right on the money, but Wraithlords, dreadnoughts and the like are so iconic within the 40k universe I can't see them being ignored. 

    If boosts such as specialised limited use wargear and super heavy armor such as Terminator armor are bought upon respawn using requisition points then strictly speaking you actually would have been dead first. :)

    image

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BeerSamurai

     

    For Assault would think Swooping Hawks'd be more appropriate as they not only are capable of getting in close to the enemy fast, but they basically act as assault marines, able to scale walls and towers without having to break down the defenses, and still have decent balance between range and melee.  This may also help for scouting as it gives them a higher vantage to look at enemy emplacements.

    The Assault role implies more than just fast movement, it indicates a unit specialised in melee.

    Because they need to close the distance to perform in their role they may often get special movement based abilities such as jump packs or the ability to infiltrate or deep strike. 

     

    In the Eldar craftworld armies Striking scorpions manage this by infiltrating, whilst Banshees used to be able to stun enemies using their banshee masks allowing these relatively frail warriors to get the drop on their opponents.

    In TT this ability was watered down and nothing was done to help them in terms of closing to assault distance beyond a slight speed increase of 3" through being 'acrobatic', which is one reason they are often a poor choice without some kind of troop transport as they became slow glass tigers in a shooting gallery.

     

    Eldar are peculiar in that the main jump troops (I'm discounting Autarchs and Exarchs here) are not really Assault troops, they are just really mobile shooty units.

     

    Warp Spiders are based around quick hit and run attacks with powerful but short range monofilament weapons that are great against all troop types and many vehicles.

    They are pants at close combat.

    Incidentally they count as jet pack troops and therefore can also jump to the top of walls provided they are within their movement range, over (through) terrain and arguably even into sealed buildings - as they move through the warp and not real space.  

     

    Swooping Hawks are highly mobile jump troops, only with medium ranged weapons that are kinda weak, weaker even then your standard Shuriken weaponry.

    Their only saving grace is their grenades which are generally meh, though they do have Haywire grenades which can make them pretty effective against vehicles.

     

    They are even worse than Warp Spiders in an assault. 

     

    Both troops have their merits, I just personally find Warp Spiders far more interesting, sinister, alien and punchy compared to the weak sauce swooping budgies.

    To be fair though neither aspect has a "decent balance between range and melee", other than having Exarchs that can manage to hold their own in CC. That aside they are both ranged units through and through.

     

     

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  • BeerSamuraiBeerSamurai Hillsborough, CAPosts: 69Member

    Well as much as I can see Scorpions or Banshees fulfilling the role of melee specialist much better, I don't necessarily see them as the best 'assault' choice as I don't think either of them have the 'jumping range' of a Hawk.  I emphasize this because all the other factions have their own variant of a unit that can simply fly over enemy emplacements and defenses to wreak havoc on the defenders behind it.  Plus the benefits that Banshees have when fighting doesn't strike me as an ability they can consistently use to stay in combat. 

    Whereas Space Marines are elite troops that excel at both or the orks which are dominant in melee, Eldar rather flit around, staying JUST outside melee range, but still close enough to where the enemy gets a full blast of whatever gun they are wielding.  That's why I felt swooping hawks would be a better choice.  I mean you don't see Howling Banshees jumping 30m high over walls...

    In say Space Marines, the strategy for assaulting is jump up, find the biggest gathering of enemies, then rocket in and start smacking stuff.  Orks, same thing but with a higher chance of exploding and saying something funny.  With Eldar, they'd have to do the Eldar thing: be tricky.  Instead of swooping in, they'd fly over their target, 'poop' their payload of grenades, and then mop up the disoriented survivors.

    Warp Spiders, they are like ranged focused, the further the better, they seem better off as some sort of 'special' class, designed to bring serious anti-infantry fire anywhere without the time-consuming setup/breakdown that afflicts other factions who need to rely on heavy weapons.

     

    Anyway, what do you think of Shadow Spectres?  I mean I personally think they are pretty good as they match what Eldar need in a heavy class, fast movement and pack a gun that's just as lethal to vehicles as it is to infantry...

    Dreah I'm yunk, wazzit matter to you?

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BeerSamurai

    Whereas Space Marines are elite troops that excel at both or the orks which are dominant in melee, Eldar rather flit around, staying JUST outside melee range, but still close enough to where the enemy gets a full blast of whatever gun they are wielding.  That's why I felt swooping hawks would be a better choice.  I mean you don't see Howling Banshees jumping 30m high over walls...

    Eldar break the jetpack = assault equipment rule by having shooty troops with that same mobility, just as Dark eldar have heavy weapon troops that can fly.

    Both armies do have units that stay out of melee range in order to harass the enemy with swift hit and run attacks,  but they also have highly specialised assault troops that absolutely do excel in Melee.

     

    There are 4 main Assault type (by which I mean melee specialists, hence I'm not including Exarchs, Autarchs or Warlocks) units in the Eldar army, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Harlequins and Wraithblades. None of which are able to jump 30m high over walls, but then they don't need to since the shooty units can.

     

    Eldar Melee specialist units are there to - tie up troops as tar pit units keeping them out of the battle, to deal with massed weaker units, to deal with high armor units, or, to counter enemy assault specialists.

    Their lack of a comfortable movement booster through jump or jet packs means that the Eldar player needs to clever and careful in getting them to their targets and can't just jet on in there like the marines.

     

    In say Space Marines, the strategy for assaulting is jump up, find the biggest gathering of enemies, then rocket in and start smacking stuff.  Orks, same thing but with a higher chance of exploding and saying something funny.  With Eldar, they'd have to do the Eldar thing: be tricky.  Instead of swooping in, they'd fly over their target, 'poop' their payload of grenades, and then mop up the disoriented survivors.

    Space marines are not Eldar and Swooping hawks are even worse in melee than they are shooting, and their weapons aren't great at that. If they are being jumped into melee without an Autarch and a melee Exarch in tow then you are just throwing them away.

    Let's face it their S3 Ap -- melee attacks with what amounts to boot knives are only really useful against grots. 

    Warp Spiders, they are like ranged focused, the further the better, they seem better off as some sort of 'special' class, designed to bring serious anti-infantry fire anywhere without the time-consuming setup/breakdown that afflicts other factions who need to rely on heavy weapons.

    The further the better? Warp Spiders need to be much closer than Hawks. Hawks have a twice the weapon range of Spiders, their Lasblasters have the same range as a marine's Bolter, while a Death Spinner operates in pistol range.

    IMO they really exemplify Eldar tactics in that they are a powerful and versatile unit that is hard to use correctly and needs to keep up a hit and run harassment of the enemy to really be effective. 

     

    Personally I make no excuses, I just flat out prefer everything about Spiders compared to Hawks, looks, weaponry, play style, everything.  I'm biassed.

    I do think that Hawks would be easier to represent in a computer game as they wouldn't need a warp jump mechanic, but it is that uniqueness and their ability to strike fast and hard before melting away that makes Spiders stand out to me.

    Anyway, what do you think of Shadow Spectres?  I mean I personally think they are pretty good as they match what Eldar need in a heavy class, fast movement and pack a gun that's just as lethal to vehicles as it is to infantry...

    I think Shadow Spectres are a forgeworld unit and aren't in the Eldar Codex, so I rank them along with Exodites and corsairs... Cool, highly beardy and highly unlikely.

    Furthermore they basically occupy the same role as Dark Eldar Scourges, which makes them even more unlikely as they would detract from any effort to make the races seem very different and distinct in play style.

    image

  • wghtopsidewghtopside MoscowPosts: 36Member
    Originally posted by quotheraving

    Fellow Farseers it's time to put your pointy hats on, dust off your runes of divination and try and divine what the skeins of fate hold in store for your race.

     

    I'll try and get this party started with some suitably wild speculation/wishful thinking of my own.

     

    These are the assumptions I'll be working from:

     

    • For starters I'm assuming that the overall design philosophy for the Eldar will be as a highly mobile, highly specialised force that will tend to excel at swift surgical attacks behind enemy lines rather than being brute force front line brawlers, this is based on little more than knowing that the developers are familiar with the lore and have a good grasp of military strategy.
    • Also I'm expecting the Eldar forces to be used partly to counter balance the Male dominated battlefield of the game, so that will factor into my unit choices and I'll include a bias towards female unit types. 
    • Next I'm expecting there to be a general format of Assault, Support, All Purpose and Heavy as basic character types.
    • Finally I'm discounting Harlequins, Corsairs and Exodites as unit types. Corsairs and Exodites as they aren't really included as a part of the Tabletop game yet even if they are a solid part of the lore, and Harlequins as they aren't really Craftworld Eldar, but rather a sub faction and may be added later. 
    • I'm hoping that Guardians will be represented in the game, but as npcs for reasons of balance.

     

     

    Assault.

    The choice here is pretty binary between Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees, Wraithblades may be a temporary option as a Terminator Armor equivalent, but it's not really a bread and butter unit. 

    Scorpions would be a great choice simply for their stealth and ability to infiltrate, but I'm giving benefit of the doubt to Howling Banshees as they offer another female play option (Eldar are an equal opportunities employer). 

     

    Support.

    Well this is a no brainer, it's going to be either Warlocks or Farseers, with a female Avatar choice as a play option.

    I for one would love to see a Seer council take to the field.

     

    Heavy.

    There are 4 choices here:

    Fire Dragons (yes I know they are Elites, but I'm basing the classification on their weapon types as much as anything). I consider them unlikely as they are equipped with such short range weapons and lack any really characterful unit abilities.

    Dark Reapers, a very characterful part of any Eldar force, but frankly too slow and ponderous to fit with the idea of the 'swift surgical' Eldar force. They are more suited to a real slugfest.

    Wraithguard. Like Wraithblades they are more likely to be a rarer terminator style calldown rather than a more common unit.

    and lastly,

    Rangers.

    Now rangers aren't really tank buster types, but they do fit the mold of a stealthy killy, long ranged unit and are really well suited for the special forces style operations.

     

    All Purpose

    There is only one unit that I feel best Exemplifies this role and that is the Dire Avengers and I really feel that an Eldar army without these shuriken catapault wielding nutters is like a body without a backbone.

     

    Unfortunately this leaves me with a bit of a problem. No Jumppacks!

     

    It may be that the Eldar will get a fifth class allowing them to field either Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders (please let it be spiders, Hawks are naff in comparison!) or it may be that they won't follow the 4 battlefield roles as closely as say the Marines do.

     

    Marines for instance can carry a wide range of different weapon types greatly changing their role on the battlefield, whereas an Eldar aspect warrior is far more restricted in what he/she can carry, so it is entirely possible that an Aspect Warrior class may be able to specialise in a number of different directions allowing several aspects to be represented by a single class type.

     

    One option here that is in keeping with the lore is for the Eldar may begin with 3 classes representing broad unit types.

    The Path of the Seer, The Path of the Warrior and the Path of the Wanderer.

    The Path of the Seer encompasses Warlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers e.t.c.

    The Path of the Warrior encompasses the Aspects of Khaine.

    The Path of the Wanderer encompasses Rangers, Exodites and Corsairs.

     

    For the Path of the Warrior for instance you may begin with a Dire Avenger and get the option of unlocking the ability to become a more specialised  Banshee or a Warp Spider effectively allowing these three classes to be aspects of a single broad class.

     

    The Problem with this is that while the Seers have plenty of psyker powers to pad out their progression and could possibly branch out into Spirit Seers, Farseers or even Bone Seers, and the Path of the Warrior has all the Aspects to choose from, there is really very little development options for Rangers other than to become Pathfinders, which are just slightly better Rangers.

    I'd still bet good money on Rangers making it to the unit roster though as they are as Eldar as pointy ears.

     

    So my final call would be:

    Warlocks (becoming -Seers)

    Dire Avengers (becoming - Howling Banshees or Warp Spiders)

    Rangers (becoming Pathfinders)

     

    Plus a variety of other unit types as timed resource costed call downs (Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Jetbikes, vehicles)

     

     

    Anyway those are my ideas, let's hear yours :)

    I think that you should look wider mate :) I doubt there will be only 4 classes for Eldar. Maybe 4 roles, yes, but that does not mean that there will be 1 class per role.

    image

  • windbringerwindbringer midland, MIPosts: 16Member

    just too clear something up an Assault unit is not just melee even in warhammer 40k to assault is to get close with melee weapons smgs assault rifles grenades and other close ranged weapons and then get out. so warpspiders  are an assault troop so is most of the eldar army even a tactical marine is an assault unit.

     

    i am also hoping that if you play as eldar they don't force you to be female as even baneshees are not 100% female.

    The mind of the Farseer is utterly inhuman in its depth and complexity. Without mercy or moral feeling, his consciousness stands upon the edge of spiritual destruction. That he does not fall must be a result of constraints and balances that only an Eldar could understand. To a mere Human it is yet another reminder that we are but children in comparison to that ancient and powerful race.

  • SavijSavij NottPosts: 341Member
    Originally posted by wghtopside

    I think that you should look wider mate :) I doubt there will be only 4 classes for Eldar. Maybe 4 roles, yes, but that does not mean that there will be 1 class per role.

    oh dont expect to much

    its very likely that all factions will start with the same number of (basic)classes

    for each role 1 class sounds enough for the launch, cause its easier to balance and safes time

     they will ad more when the time has come for sure :)

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  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by windbringer

    just too clear something up an Assault unit is not just melee even in warhammer 40k to assault is to get close with melee weapons smgs assault rifles grenades and other close ranged weapons and then get out. 

    That is just semantics really, for instance you are drawing from some ranged weapons being called 'Assault' weapons, but I was very clear about using the term 'Assault' in this case strictly to mean Melee specialist units.

    I drew that from the 'Assault' phase of the TT game being the one in which troops typically resolve close combat and from the classification of the Marine close combat specialists as 'Assault' marines.. 

     

     

    Edit.. As for Banshees, nope there are male banshees, but they always wear female themed armor lol Eldar crossdressers,

    image

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Savij
    Originally posted by wghtopside

    I think that you should look wider mate :) I doubt there will be only 4 classes for Eldar. Maybe 4 roles, yes, but that does not mean that there will be 1 class per role.

    oh dont expect to much

    its very likely that all factions will start with the same number of (basic)classes

    for each role 1 class sounds enough for the launch, cause its easier to balance and safes time

     they will ad more when the time has come for sure :)

    That's kinda what I'm expecting too.

    With the SM classes seeming to be Assault, Tactical, Devastator and Apothecary I'd fully expect these 4 broadly parallel roles represented as classes for the Eldar too... Which is a real problem as the rigid nature of each aspect and the way the Eldar diverge from the clear cut basic roles of the marines means that while the Marines get a lot of flexibility in gearing and weaponry, the Eldar get next to none.

    So it is entirely possible that Aspects may be treated a little like unlockable wargear options. However I can't imagine that there would be more than one or two extra 'classes' as a result, and even that is unlikely.

    image

  • BeerSamuraiBeerSamurai Hillsborough, CAPosts: 69Member

    The problem is that some things in tabletop will not translate well to the game, if at all.  Some things inevitably will have to be tweaked or simply removed for the sake of playability.

    I still believe Swooping Hawks to be a better option NOT because of melee capabilities no.  Their jump packs will give them an edge other 'assault' classes will have. 

    Basically I'm assuming that the layout of the warzone will be similar to planetside with forts and such with high walls and laden with defense emplacements.  Most classes will have to destroy said defenses before forcing open the gate.  The jet packs serve not only to get close to the enemy, but to also scale difficult terrain and get to areas other classes cannot reach without help.  This may lead to forward forces of 'assault' players simply bypassing defenses by jumping over them killing the operators and opening the doors for the rest of the army.

    That is why I feel the Swooping Hawks will be more helpful to the Eldar army, simply because they can get to areas other Eldar cannot.  Where other classes can get in and chop up said defenders, hawks go in and gun them down.  I know that their lasblasters aren't that good on tabletop but I'm going under the assumption that some balance will be made.  Swooping Hawk guns will be able to do more damage either by the devs upgrading how much damage each shot does or by giving them and increased rate of fire over other faction guns. 

    You can argue that Warp Spiders can do that too, and I can see why.  I just feel the blink thing will make things a bit messy when gauging distances.  Trying to teleport up over something you can't really see is hard. 

    I stick to this because Eldar may have to be tricky but you have to throw their players a bone.  If you design their classes that removes an advantage that all other factions have, you're going to have fewer Eldar players.  They'll probably feel cheated that everyone else can just jump over their walls while they can't do the same.

    Banshees should make it in somewhere though, just not as 'assault' because their main strength is melee, and nothing else.  Their kit doesn't include grenades, and their masks only disorient infantry, doing nothing to say a tank that'll just run them over. 

     

     

     

     

    ....or you could just make Shining spears some sort of hybrid vehicle/infantry class that can fulfill that role.  That would open up assault for Banshees.

    Dreah I'm yunk, wazzit matter to you?

  • SavijSavij NottPosts: 341Member
    Originally posted by BeerSamurai

    You can argue that Warp Spiders can do that too, and I can see why.  I just feel the blink thing will make things a bit messy when gauging distances.  Trying to teleport up over something you can't really see is hard.

    thats just a design question. we could simply change the way how the warpjump will work.

    it could work like you mentioned:

    hold spacebar > see a blue disc on the ground > adjust the position of the disc with your mouse > release spacebar > jump to the discs locaion with a cooldown on your warpability

     

    or maybe this way:

    hold spacebar > get a wall piercing vision (like a mid-big blue circle where you can look through all walls that are between your spider and the max range jump, that could be a quiet cool effect :D) > see a blue disc on the ground > adjust the position of the disc with your mouse > release spacebar > jump to the discs locaion with a cooldown on your warpability

    with this variation it is a need that you cant cancel the jump and can adjust the jump direction just in a small angle or you will have a free wallhack :D

     

    or maybe even this way (remember it quotheraving? :P:

    hold spacebar > get invisible, untouchable, beeing able to walk through everything and a very high movement buff (that fast that you can travel the same distance other assaultclasses can travel too)> walk where you want to for a short set time (maybe just 3 sec) or until you release spacebar > release spacebar or time runs out > get back into realspace with a cooldown on your warpability

    this way it could be kinda cheaty, stay infront of a fortresswall and walk in with your warpjump, look around whats behind that wall, walk back and tell your mates whats inside. but that could be balanced by not alowing to walk backwards and can adjust your walking direction very slightly

    be always up to date about Eternal Crusade
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  • wghtopsidewghtopside MoscowPosts: 36Member
    Why do you people think that every race will have the same amount of classes.... why do you think that everything should be bound by same set of rules.... even after the devs directly said that gameplay of each race will be different and there is no balance at war.

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  • BeerSamuraiBeerSamurai Hillsborough, CAPosts: 69Member
    Originally posted by wghtopside
    Why do you people think that every race will have the same amount of classes.... why do you think that everything should be bound by same set of rules.... even after the devs directly said that gameplay of each race will be different and there is no balance at war.

    It's a matter of 'class envy'.  Eventually there will be complaints because one faction has something the others don't.  That advantage may be exploited to the nth degree, it may not, but because one side has it and none of the others do, there will be complaining.  They will demand some sort of way to counter it.  Then it falls to the devs to make something that CAN counter it if used correctly.  The best way is to basically give whatever is being complained about to the complaining faction.   Since there is plenty of stuff in lore, and the codices, it shouldn't be too hard to fill those niches.

     

    Space Marines will obviously have Assault Marines.  Chaos will very likely have Raptors as a counter(plus the fact that early footage looks like Space Marine where Raptors are already available I would be very surprised if they don't use them).

    Orks will probably have Stormboyz because coding for that will be a damn sight easier than making a Wyrdboy use 'Ere We Go' to teleport players around.

    The debate is how Eldar will counter this.  Will they go with some easy mirror with the swooping hawk, or will they try something unique like warp spider?  Or will they go totally bonkers and give the jump ability to the Wraithknight walkers?

    Dreah I'm yunk, wazzit matter to you?

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BeerSamurai

    The problem is that some things in tabletop will not translate well to the game, if at all.  Some things inevitably will have to be tweaked or simply removed for the sake of playability.

    I agree, but remember you won't get a fair hearing for the Hawks because I'm biassed

    I still believe Swooping Hawks to be a better option NOT because of melee capabilities no.  Their jump packs will give them an edge other 'assault' classes will have. 

    Aside from all the many many reasons why Hawks are subpar think about how they would play out ingame.

     

    Firstly they are huge!

    50% of their area in profile would be taken up by the wings, which gives them either a massive hitbox making them stupidly easy to hit and/or clipping problems as the wings pass through terrain, other players e.t.c. or blocking other players / your own over the shoulder view.

    Next there is the problem with animating the wings so that they look authentic both to the lore (they don't flap so much as have 'feather' plates that vibrate) and basic real world aesthetics. 

     

    Then there is the gameplay aspect.

    Jetpack troops are likely to be singled out as targets by the large part of the enemy forces while they are in the air in an attempt to prevent them from getting in range for an assault / drop bombs / whatever.

    Assault Marines can take this kind of punishment thanks to their natural toughness and heavy armor, Orks are just bloody minded enough to shrug off minor wounds, but Eldar, and swooping hawks in particular, are characteristically frail.

    Basically they will be shot out of the sky faster than ducks in hunting season!

     

    Add to that a super large hitbox and a massive and immediately obvious profile and you have a weak, ineffective suicide unit.

    Basically I'm assuming that the layout of the warzone will be similar to planetside with forts and such with high walls and laden with defense emplacements.  Most classes will have to destroy said defenses before forcing open the gate.  The jet packs serve not only to get close to the enemy, but to also scale difficult terrain and get to areas other classes cannot reach without help.  This may lead to forward forces of 'assault' players simply bypassing defenses by jumping over them killing the operators and opening the doors for the rest of the army.

    That is why I feel the Swooping Hawks will be more helpful to the Eldar army, simply because they can get to areas other Eldar cannot.  Where other classes can get in and chop up said defenders, hawks go in and gun them down.  I know that their lasblasters aren't that good on tabletop but I'm going under the assumption that some balance will be made.  Swooping Hawk guns will be able to do more damage either by the devs upgrading how much damage each shot does or by giving them and increased rate of fire over other faction guns. 

    You can argue that Warp Spiders can do that too, and I can see why.  I just feel the blink thing will make things a bit messy when gauging distances.  Trying to teleport up over something you can't really see is hard. 

    I'm not just arguing that Spiders can get onto high walls, I'm outright stating that in the rule book they absolutely can since they are counted as having jetpacks for the purposes of determining movement and so get the skyborne rule.

     

    It is true that a targeted blink style teleport would fall flat due to line of sight issues, but if you read back through the suggestions thread you will see myself and Savij discussing one possible alternative.

    Another is simply to have the  WS warp jump operate a bit like a combination of stealth and jetpack, so they can fly about and reposition in exactly the same way as any other jetpack unit, only that they cannot be shot at while doing so (and can't fire themselves ofc). This may seem OTT but bear in mind that when they do appear they will be close to their opponent and are (like all Eldar) relatively fragile.

    I stick to this because Eldar may have to be tricky but you have to throw their players a bone.  If you design their classes that removes an advantage that all other factions have, you're going to have fewer Eldar players.  They'll probably feel cheated that everyone else can just jump over their walls while they can't do the same.

    I agree

    Banshees should make it in somewhere though, just not as 'assault' because their main strength is melee, and nothing else.  Their kit doesn't include grenades, and their masks only disorient infantry, doing nothing to say a tank that'll just run them over. 

     

    I thought I made it clear that I have been using the term Assault to mean Melee and melee specialised units, after all Assault marines are melee specialists and the Assault phase is the one in which units charge and melee combat is resolved. 

    (as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFYPK38GTbk )

     

    Maybe it would be less confusing if you termed these fast moving units as 'Fast Attack' to stay in keeping with the codex terminology. 

     

    As for Banshees being ineffective against tanks... well yeah! Of course they are, they are intended to engage troops in melee not to play tag with tanks that's a job for other Aspects that specialise at that role! Remember the Eldar are characterised by having highly specialised troops that really only work well in one role and knowing how to combine them is the trick to playing eldar. 

     

     

    ....or you could just make Shining spears some sort of hybrid vehicle/infantry class that can fulfill that role.  That would open up assault for Banshees.

    Shining Spears are jetbike units, I would imagine that jetbikes won't be class bound but rather requisition purchased.

     

    Anyway it's not my place to judge your ideas and I hope you don't think I'm being unecessarily critical, however I'm not likely to change my mind about my ideas without some very good and solid reasons (such as finding out the actual classes Behavior has opted to use :) ), that said though I'm happy to discuss the relative merits of different units.

    image

  • NonderyonNonderyon GyulaPosts: 175Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Savij
    Originally posted by wghtopside

    I think that you should look wider mate :) I doubt there will be only 4 classes for Eldar. Maybe 4 roles, yes, but that does not mean that there will be 1 class per role.

    oh dont expect to much

    its very likely that all factions will start with the same number of (basic)classes

    for each role 1 class sounds enough for the launch, cause its easier to balance and safes time

     they will ad more when the time has come for sure :)

    Agree with you, but i say, the Eldar can't be put in with just 4 class, because of the nature how they fight and how specialised they are, 4 class just can't represent them.

    The marines what trained both close and long range combat is way easier to implement them with just 4 class at start than what eldars are, and the paths give a hard time too.(maybe the dev team work the hardest part with implement eldars than the other 4 faction)

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    ranger, banshee, fire dragon and warlock

    That is certainly one possible combination, ranger as long ranged shooty sniper, banshee as melee/assault, fire dragon as heavy / anti-tank and warlock as support. 

     

    The problem with this line up is that you are lacking a highly mobile jetpack class, not to mention only having shuriken pistols rather than the immediately recognisable shuriken catapault.

     

    Also Fire Dragons have a real problem due to the range on their weapons being around half that of a bolter meaning that they will have to get right ontop of the enemy to be effective.

    This isn't a problem in TT due to shooting being constrained by the turn system allowing a player to get troops near a target without them being fired on, but in a computer game with twitch style targeting they will really suffer.

     

    Essentially any anti-tank unit will need to have either decent range or great mobility and the Dragons really have neither :(

     

    EDIT: OFC it's always possible that the classes may be very different in game and not exactly 100% faithful adaptations, but broad stuff will most likely stay the same. 

    image

  • wghtopsidewghtopside MoscowPosts: 36Member
    Originally posted by BeerSamurai
    Originally posted by wghtopside
    Why do you people think that every race will have the same amount of classes.... why do you think that everything should be bound by same set of rules.... even after the devs directly said that gameplay of each race will be different and there is no balance at war.
    The debate is how Eldar will counter this.  Will they go with some easy mirror with the swooping hawk, or will they try something unique like warp spider?  Or will they go totally bonkers and give the jump ability to the Wraithknight walkers?

    Replace OR with AND. :)

    Also all of the people who assume that everyone will have 4 classes (which are basic and we see them in every game) make me sad, because you guys just can't go into something new and unexplored in games.

    image

  • BeerSamuraiBeerSamurai Hillsborough, CAPosts: 69Member

    Well the reason we fall on the basic 4 class system is because we don't know how the real class system will be.  There will be a minimum of 4.  That much is obvious, but until we get an official announcement as to what the actual class structure will be, then we can only speculate.

    ...at least that's why I do it.  I'd rather be pleasantly surprised by them having more than I expected than disappointed they couldn't live up to my lofty expectations.  The Skaven in Warhammer Online comes to mind...

    Dreah I'm yunk, wazzit matter to you?

  • quotheravingquotheraving WorthingPosts: 279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wghtopside
    Originally posted by BeerSamurai
    Originally posted by wghtopside
    Why do you people think that every race will have the same amount of classes.... why do you think that everything should be bound by same set of rules.... even after the devs directly said that gameplay of each race will be different and there is no balance at war.
    The debate is how Eldar will counter this.  Will they go with some easy mirror with the swooping hawk, or will they try something unique like warp spider?  Or will they go totally bonkers and give the jump ability to the Wraithknight walkers?

    Replace OR with AND. :)

    Also all of the people who assume that everyone will have 4 classes (which are basic and we see them in every game) make me sad, because you guys just can't go into something new and unexplored in games.

    Seriously have you even read the OP?

    I simply looked at the Marine classes to determine the roles they represent (of which there are 4) but I didn't translate that directly to 4 classes because the Eldar don't fit into such simple roles. So I changed that basic format by having 3 aspects represented by one 'class'.

    I would like to see something like that, but to be honest I don't see it happening.

    image

  • wghtopsidewghtopside MoscowPosts: 36Member
    Originally posted by quotheraving
    Originally posted by wghtopside
    Originally posted by BeerSamurai
    Originally posted by wghtopside
    Why do you people think that every race will have the same amount of classes.... why do you think that everything should be bound by same set of rules.... even after the devs directly said that gameplay of each race will be different and there is no balance at war.
    The debate is how Eldar will counter this.  Will they go with some easy mirror with the swooping hawk, or will they try something unique like warp spider?  Or will they go totally bonkers and give the jump ability to the Wraithknight walkers?

    Replace OR with AND. :)

    Also all of the people who assume that everyone will have 4 classes (which are basic and we see them in every game) make me sad, because you guys just can't go into something new and unexplored in games.

    Seriously have you even read the OP?

    This first sentence would have not happened if You would've read my previous posts in the thread. :)

    And why do you think that Eldar should definitely have same class roles as Space Marines? Let me give you an example: do Space Marines have hordish class like orks do?

    Gameplay for each race SHOULD be different, and different rolesclasses are the foundation for it.

    image

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