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Do you miss corpse runs?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

     The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

    Nope. They will play much more risk aversely and don't try anything.

    In fact, D3 is a good example. You can have perma-death and people are extremely careful and don't try anything new (or try in softcore first).

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jesad

    You know, your opener summed up the entire reason corpse runs were great.  Because, in fact, without a more substantial penalty for death than just a reset, killing a mob boss is indeed just a zerg.

    Tell me if I am being truthful here or lying.

    In many games today people don't even wait for a rez anymore, they just click to respawn or even worse, in some games, pop right back up on the spot.  This almost nullifies the reason for having a resurrecting class in the group for anything other than to facilitate more forward momentum through heals.  This, in turn, makes players far less dependent on each other to do the particular tasks that each of them were built to do as there is no longer a reason to protect one another and THIS nullifies the need for almost any social interaction.

    All you really need to do is get into a group, zerg your way through the content, and leave once you've accomplished whatever task you came to accomplish.

    I see this happening all the time now, and it really takes a LOT away from the idea that these are supposed to be actual characters living in an actual world.  Setting up alternatives like timed events and other things like you have stated, only serves then to remove the player yet another step away from being able to enjoy the purpose that many people enter these games to fulfill, which is to play make believe.

    Now we just have another game like any other game.  May as well play on your console, because you have about as much chance or opportunity of feeling like a character in a 3d shooter or in a fighting game is representative of you (actually more at that point) than you do in a game where you are nothing but extra dps or heals.

    Actual death penalties however, change all of that.  If for no other reason than they prevent forward momentum until the group either reconfigures or addresses the death.  Sure, in a world where people are going to be impatient, are working with limited time, or are just plain not smart enough to know when to stop spamming their biggest damage spell, this in inconvenient.  But I, for one, believe that people can be taught to be better at these things, and that in the learning and overcoming of such shortcomings there are greater rewards such as a sense of accomplishment, a sense of improvement, a sense of community etc.... all the things that people come here and complain that they don't feel anymore.

    Right now the devs are just trying to make it so that everyone, young or old, smart or dumb, impatient or patient can play.  I don't hate on that because I know that they do this in order to make as much money as possible.  But just like your argument that they only had corpse runs in order to make money, the same can be said for not having them as well.

    The devs are going to get paid no matter what they do.  They don't do things that don't get them paid.  That's why they are devs.  Taking corpse runs, or other heavier death penalties out of the game however, shortchanges YOU, the player.

    Yadda, yadda, yadda, I could go on in about 5 different ways.

    A reset is (wait for it) a reset.  Which means (wait for it) the boss is reset.  Which means the boss can't be zerged.  So by definition what I'm describing is unzergable.  (And while I don't think you're lying, it makes me wonder if you've played a MMORPG in the last decade that you'd even consider the possibility of zergable bosses.)

    As for waiting for rezzes, resurrection is busywork.  It's not deep gameplay.  It doesn't add significantly to immersion.  In PVE if your entire party/raid automatically rezzed for free in the boss' chamber (or slightly prior to it, with a few trash mobs respawning) then that wouldn't impact the challenge of MMORPGs at all but would dramatically improve the pacing of death (which even in the best MMORPGs nowadays is still clunky.)

    The fact that you'd imply rezzing classes are relied upon to rez and not to perform their primary role (healing, etc) also makes me wonder if you've played an MMORPG in the past decade.  The complete removal of rez spells (apart from battle rezzing, naturally) would have no effect on the desire to take these players into the dungeon.

    In MMORPGs you either play skillfully enough to beat the challenge, or you wipe.  There is no "zerging through content", because until you exhibit enough skill you're going to keep wiping.  And while improved difficulty options are something more MMORPGs need (to ensure the challenge is actually challenging) increasing the death penalties wouldn't really make things any better (you'd either have easy content which is still too easy and zergable, or you'd have challenging content which is a complete hassle to engage with because some random asshat can screw up and waste you a lot of time, money, XP, or whatever.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

     The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

    Nope. They will play much more risk aversely and don't try anything.

    In fact, D3 is a good example. You can have perma-death and people are extremely careful and don't try anything new (or try in softcore first).

     

    Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

     

    No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

     

    There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

    The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

    The thing is it doesn't make people play less stupidly.  It makes people less risk inclined.  Instead of taking on a risky challenge to see if I could kill a boss or a tough mob, I would pass it by because the risk of xp loss wasn't worth the potential for that good drop.  So you wait for a group of people to fight those mobs so it will be safe and easy.  But they don't want to take risks either.  They don't want to take on the larger riskier group. They want to keep farming solid safe xp and drops so they can make good progress.

    Heavy death penalties just encourage safe play.  That's how grouping first started, people didn't want to lose 3 weeks worth of progress so they got together with friends so it would be easier and safer.

    You may do suicidal stuff on purpose, but I doubt you do that when you have a goal to accomplish.  If you need or want a certain drop or to receive a certain reward then you won't do stupid stuff unless you just want to waste your time.  Trying to get the reward will motivate you to play smart and die less.  Trying to do that in a timely matter even more so.  Having a stiff death penalty just means you will wait to do that until its safe (more people to zerg the mob, over-leveling content, etc).

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

    The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

    The thing is it doesn't make people play less stupidly.  It makes people less risk inclined.  Instead of taking on a risky challenge to see if I could kill a boss or a tough mob, I would pass it by because the risk of xp loss wasn't worth the potential for that good drop.  So you wait for a group of people to fight those mobs so it will be safe and easy.  But they don't want to take risks either.  They don't want to take on the larger riskier group. They want to keep farming solid safe xp and drops so they can make good progress.

    Heavy death penalties just encourage safe play.  That's how grouping first started, people didn't want to lose 3 weeks worth of progress so they got together with friends so it would be easier and safer.

    You may do suicidal stuff on purpose, but I doubt you do that when you have a goal to accomplish.  If you need or want a certain drop or to receive a certain reward then you won't do stupid stuff unless you just want to waste your time.  Trying to get the reward will motivate you to play smart and die less.  Trying to do that in a timely matter even more so.  Having a stiff death penalty just means you will wait to do that until its safe (more people to zerg the mob, over-leveling content, etc).

    Torv, the harsh penalty did more than just stuff involving playing stupidly or being risk adverse, it also amped up the immersion, especially when combined with first person view.  I remember being truly spooked in some of the EQ and DAOC dungeons, especially the former.  And where I did not see some part of a dungeon or zone from being risk adverse, my imagination went wild and "filled in the gaps", sometimes putting more there than there actually was.

    In the Field of Bone zone, off the coast, was a high level area.  Someone told me there were these "gorilla things" that hit really hard and he did not know what level they were.  Well, I never really went to that place, and I sure gave it a wide berth when I traveled through that zone, but it always made me imagine what might be there.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly.

     The sad thing? This goes for me too. I admit death is so trivial I do suicidal stuff on purpose without worry which is... dumb.

    Nope. They will play much more risk aversely and don't try anything.

    In fact, D3 is a good example. You can have perma-death and people are extremely careful and don't try anything new (or try in softcore first).

     

    Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

     

    No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

     

    There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

    I disagree. I think tactics is driven by the challenge, not the level of risks.

    Take D3 (again) as an example. In low MP, you just faceroll and DPS. Any build, and any tactics will work. At high MP, you need to be careful and optimize. When i play archon in low MP, i just stand there and DPS. When i am in high MP, i pay attention, use terrain to my advantage (for example, standing in corner to counter vortex), and use hit-and-run tactics.

    The tactics is caused by the challenge, not risk. The risk is the same.

    In hard core, everything changes ... people becomes very risk averse, even in non-challenging situations.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

     

    No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

     

    There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

    Your spectrum is wrong though.  It implies the wrong correlation.

    The right correlation is "skill used correlates to skill required"

    • Players aren't going to use lots of forethought and tactics in a heavy-risk, low-challenge situation, because little strategy is required.
    • Players can't zerg in a no-risk, high-challenge situation, because they will always fail until they employ strategy.

    So the challenge spectrum is vastly more important:

    No Challenge          Some Challenge             Moderate Challenge       Heavy Challenge              Extreme Challenge

    <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

    Boredom                    Basic Tactics               Tactics and Strategy       Lots of Tactics                 Frustration

     

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • HeretiqueHeretique Posts: 1,101Member Uncommon

    I don't.

     

    Because games haven't done anything interesting when it comes to "the afterlife". Just another time waster.

    Originally posted by salsa41
    are you have problem ?

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Heretique

    I don't.

     

    Because games haven't done anything interesting when it comes to "the afterlife". Just another time waster.

    This one truly Indie open source mmo called Planeshift sort of tried something interesting to "the afterlife".  When you die in that game you are transported to an area that is "the underworld".  You must find your way out of the maze and back to the surface.  It's sort of like corpse-run lite.

    Although their implementation (at least at the time I saw it several years ago) was rudimentary and lost its charm quickly I always appreciated the nod to the idea that there should be more to death than just respawn or rez, even with corpse runs or xp/item loss.

    Imagine a more expansive death penalty system with options.

    1. You could respawn like normal with a penalty to items, resources, and/or xp.  This would be the quick way out if you just wanted to get back into the action.

    2. A player could rez you with a smaller penatly to the above.

    3. A player could revive in the underworld.  They would have to regain their gear, face challenges (both combat and otherwise), possibly adventure, and do quests in order to make it back to the prime material plane.  At any point a player could offer to rez their corpse on the surface or the player could just choose to respawn with the penalty.

    In any event the player wouldn't lose their gear although there could be a repair cost or durability hit if the game system offered such a mechanic.

    I like the idea because it expands the idea of defeat, offers options, and has something more to it than the very shallow respawn mechanic.  There could be a whole world of adventure in the underworld itself.

  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Sea of JapanPosts: 101Member Uncommon
    No.. I don't miss corpse runs at all.. I favor death penalties in my games, but not masochism.. I still have nightmares about a few more "interesting" AC corpse runs.. *shudder*

    You have your fear, which might become reality; and you have Godzilla, which IS reality. - Ogata

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

     

    No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

     

    There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

    Your spectrum is wrong though.  It implies the wrong correlation.

    The right correlation is "skill used correlates to skill required"

    • Players aren't going to use lots of forethought and tactics in a heavy-risk, low-challenge situation, because little strategy is required.
    • Players can't zerg in a no-risk, high-challenge situation, because they will always fail until they employ strategy.

    So the challenge spectrum is vastly more important:

    No Challenge          Some Challenge             Moderate Challenge       Heavy Challenge              Extreme Challenge

    <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

    Boredom                    Basic Tactics               Tactics and Strategy       Lots of Tactics                 Frustration

     

    Thank you for illustrating what i tried to say in the post above so well.

    Indeed it is about the level of challenge, not risk. In addition, in high risk case, players often seek out LOW level of challenge (if they can control it) to avoid the hefty penalty. Case in point, hardcore D3 players are more likely to level in low MP than high ones.

    Personally, i prefer more challenge, less risk, than more risk and less challenge. Because that is more fun to me.

     

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Good point, but I think it is a slider bar sort of mechanic to the concept (assume Risk = Severity of Penalty in the chart below):

     

    No Risk              Some Risk                     Moderate Risk         Heavy Risk               Extreme Risk

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    Zerg Play             Some tactics                Lots of forethought, tactics     Risk Adverse Gameplay

     

    There is an optimal sweet spot somewhere in there.

    Your spectrum is wrong though.  It implies the wrong correlation.

    The right correlation is "skill used correlates to skill required"

    • Players aren't going to use lots of forethought and tactics in a heavy-risk, low-challenge situation, because little strategy is required.
    • Players can't zerg in a no-risk, high-challenge situation, because they will always fail until they employ strategy.

    So the challenge spectrum is vastly more important:

    No Challenge          Some Challenge             Moderate Challenge       Heavy Challenge              Extreme Challenge

    <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

    Boredom                    Basic Tactics               Tactics and Strategy       Lots of Tactics                 Frustration

     

    Thank you for illustrating what i tried to say in the post above so well.

    Indeed it is about the level of challenge, not risk. In addition, in high risk case, players often seek out LOW level of challenge (if they can control it) to avoid the hefty penalty. Case in point, hardcore D3 players are more likely to level in low MP than high ones.

    Personally, i prefer more challenge, less risk, than more risk and less challenge. Because that is more fun to me.

     

    I never saw someone zerg in EQ1, when it had its stinging death penalty.  Never saw a boss fight there were there wasn't some discussion of tactics beforehand.

    Bottom line, when the penalty for messing up is extreme, folks stop and pay attention real fast.

    I like the highwire example.  All wind conditions the same, set one 3 feet off the ground, and folks might casually attempt it repeatedly, laughing and not caring if they misstep.  Set one 1,000 feet in the air, and the folks who do attempt (some won't due to RISK AVERSION) will only do so with much forethought and care.  This is true, you cannot ignore it with any credibility.

    Now, it may be argued that harsh penalty and challenge warrant their own axes (plural for axis, not axe), and the diagram might look more like the quadrant of a graph.  But, the topic was corpse runs, which implies harsh death penalty, not so much challenge, right?

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by TyranusPrime
    No.. I don't miss corpse runs at all.. I favor death penalties in my games, but not masochism.. I still have nightmares about a few more "interesting" AC corpse runs.. *shudder*

    I hear you.  But it was sort of humorous watching someone in their shorts run past you in a zone, and knowing they were on a corpse run.

  • KaledrenKaledren , NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by neorandom

    all these new fangled post eq 1 games dont have real corpse runs or even potential losses from death.

     

    in eq 1 you could delevel from dieing (you lost xp each time you died) and the best res only gave back 96%, and odds are 90% was the only res you might find, corpses res timers also eroded over time and expired within 24 hours of being logged in if i recall right.

     

    if you started in freeport, and traversed the great plains of karana, and braved the vast deserts and crossed the great wastes (or found a druid or wizard to teleport you) and eventually made the ship crossing to the elvish lands to hunt clan crushbone orcs (my human shadow knight and iksar monk both did this back in the day) you had to find someone to bind you so that you literally didnt come back to live, and have to make that entire journey, again, naked, and it took 4-6 hours to run that guantlet.

     

    and you had to get a bind out of range of the kill on sight high level gaurds, until you killed enough orcs that they would tolerate you at least.

     

    you can make jokes that you cut yourself instead or whatever, but gaming back in the day in the first real 3d world, with consequences for poor choices, built online character into your characters.  yould join up with strangers just to teach each other to talk the same languages, even if you were born blood enemies, then you could at least trade insults in a proper civilized fashion.

    When you're a subscription game, you create a lot of arbitrary ways for players to be forced to subscribe longer.  The intent of those features isn't to make the game deeper or more fun, but to take longer.

    If I'd been a designer on early MMORPGs, I would get a big laugh about how players a decade later are steadfastly defending design decisions made not because they were in players' best interests, but in order to make more money from them.

    You mean like end game raid content in today's MMORPG's that make you do the same dungeons over and over for gear? Or rep? Or to gain access to the next raid dungeon?

    If you think the same doesn't take place now for the same reasons...you are delusional.  However.. it's more about taking more money from players via cash shops with items that entice the player to stay longer and spend more money.

     

    To answer the OP's question...yes. Miss the fear, excitement, and the friendships and comradery it produced.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    Excellent points, ReallyNow10!



    Originally posted by WW4BW
    ...Agent Smith: "Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization."

    Great quote.


    Originally posted by jesad
    ...let me just say that I remember why they took them out of the game as well. Corpse runs made people who didn't have enough time to get into something that might involve a corpse run not get involved with certain things.


    I wish it was that noble a reason, but I believe it was just another example of SOE copying WoW.



    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Purutzil I don't miss corpse runs, I miss harsh death penalties. I almost feel if those were in place, people would actually be far more inclined to play... well... less stupidly....

    The thing is it doesn't make people play less stupidly. It makes people less risk inclined.



    People play less stupidly *and* are less risk inclined, but I think the former moreso than the latter.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I never saw someone zerg in EQ1, when it had its stinging death penalty.  Never saw a boss fight there were there wasn't some discussion of tactics beforehand.

    Bottom line, when the penalty for messing up is extreme, folks stop and pay attention real fast.

    I like the highwire example.  All wind conditions the same, set one 3 feet off the ground, and folks might casually attempt it repeatedly, laughing and not caring if they misstep.  Set one 1,000 feet in the air, and the folks who do attempt (some won't due to RISK AVERSION) will only do so with much forethought and care.  This is true, you cannot ignore it with any credibility.

    Now, it may be argued that harsh penalty and challenge warrant their own axes (plural for axis, not axe), and the diagram might look more like the quadrant of a graph.  But, the topic was corpse runs, which implies harsh death penalty, not so much challenge, right?

    And you also never saw someone zerg in a game with high challenge but no penalty/risk. 

    Of course players pay attention when the game kicks them in the groin each time they screw up.  Nobody's disputing that torture victims know they're being tortured!

    Your highwire example couldn't have better portrayed the core purpose to gaming (playing with it, repeatedly, to practice it) and the antithesis of gaming (tremendous risk of pain, with barely anyone trying it.)  Gaming's primary purpose is to allow someone to practice something in a low-risk environment.  Why do you think people play-fight?  To practice combat in a low-risk environment.

    It's hard-wired into us to enjoy that form of play.  Thus, we engage in it repeatedly.  "Casually," you might say.  And when we're done with low-challenge activities we move on to high-challenge activities in order to better ourselves.  But the point is never risk; the point (what our minds derive pleasure from, as an evolutionary advantage over species who don't derive pleasure from learning) is bettering ourselves through practice -- which is best accomplished without risk.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    You mean like end game raid content in today's MMORPG's that make you do the same dungeons over and over for gear? Or rep? Or to gain access to the next raid dungeon?

    If you think the same doesn't take place now for the same reasons...you are delusional.  However.. it's more about taking more money from players via cash shops with items that entice the player to stay longer and spend more money. 

    To answer the OP's question...yes. Miss the fear, excitement, and the friendships and comradery it produced.

    Similar, but not quite.

    That form of repetition isn't great.  However it's repetition centered around the deepest activity in the game, which is the best thing that can happen. Whereas activities like corpse runs (shallow feature) and slow travel (shallowest feature) are some of the shallowest activities in a game.  This makes it obviously much worse.

    It's also about progress:

    • Designers of last decade probably laugh at players this decade who defend design choices they made to keep players subscribed (wasting time traveling or corpse-running)
    • Designers of this decade will probably laugh at players next decade who defend boss-repeating (...assuming next decade's designers find a way to solve a content problem which has existed for more than 2 decades now...)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by munx4555

    Yes I miss corpseruns, they made me care about dieing, and they made me aswell as everyone else think twice about what they did.

    Death penalties have gotten lamer and lamer ever since wow, these days I am suprised if your gear even takes dmg when dieing.

    If something dosnt happen soon, I wouldnt be suprised if we started seeing mmo's with a infinite healthbar.. *Sigh*.

    I'm not sure I get why people need a punishment to make them care about dieing.  I know we all have different personalities, and thus like different things.  I have just always gotten really pissed off and embarrassed when I died to an AI controlled monster that I do all I can to avoid it.  I mean, if you think about it in a pve game, if you die, you lost to code.  I try to avoid that at all cost no matter what, it doesn't take an additional penalty to make it matter to me.

  • KaledrenKaledren , NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    You mean like end game raid content in today's MMORPG's that make you do the same dungeons over and over for gear? Or rep? Or to gain access to the next raid dungeon?

    If you think the same doesn't take place now for the same reasons...you are delusional.  However.. it's more about taking more money from players via cash shops with items that entice the player to stay longer and spend more money. 

    To answer the OP's question...yes. Miss the fear, excitement, and the friendships and comradery it produced.

    Similar, but not quite.

    That form of repetition isn't great.  However it's repetition centered around the deepest activity in the game, which is the best thing that can happen. Whereas activities like corpse runs (shallow feature) and slow travel (shallowest feature) are some of the shallowest activities in a game.  This makes it obviously much worse.

    It's also about progress:

    • Designers of last decade probably laugh at players this decade who defend design choices they made to keep players subscribed (wasting time traveling or corpse-running)
    • Designers of this decade will probably laugh at players next decade who defend boss-repeating (...assuming next decade's designers find a way to solve a content problem which has existed for more than 2 decades now...)

    As compared to quest hubs from lvl 1 to 50-60 in today's MMORPG's? That seems like a much worse and longer period of shallow features.

    Corpse runs aren't constant...unless of course the person plays like a twit. Nor even the slow travel (Depending on the game in question). But again....in most MMORPG's today they are all built the same. Around shallow quest hubs that lead you from one to the next via map GPS or minimal NPC dialog very quickly just to get you to that "deep feature".

     

    The last part about designers is probably going to end up being correct. Just as those who play these themeparks now and tell us old schoolers to "move on" will probably (Some anyways)  be in our shoes when the market finds a new way. =)

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    As compared to quest hubs from lvl 1 to 50-60 in today's MMORPG's? That seems like a much worse and longer period of shallow features.

    Corpse runs aren't constant...unless of course the person plays like a twit. Nor even the slow travel (Depending on the game in question). But again....in most MMORPG's today they are all built the same. Around shallow quest hubs that lead you from one to the next via map GPS or minimal NPC dialog very quickly just to get you to that "deep feature".

     The last part about designers is probably going to end up being correct. Just as those who play these themeparks now and tell us old schoolers to "move on" will probably (Some anyways)  be in our shoes when the market finds a new way. =)

    The leveling process is a failure of MMORPGs not learning from City of Heroes that you can do a difficulty slider and offer every player their sweet spot of challenge.

    So again, it's a little different from the overtly time-wasting, shallow activities of slow travel and corpse runs.  It is close though, because without sufficient challenge even a deep game mechanic loses the tension it needs to be deep in actual practice.

    Pointing out the places where today's games are poorly implemented does not rationalize the even shallower mechanics of the past.  (I can keep saying this each time you try to poke another hole in modern games, but it'd be nice if you got the point and realized that as bad as modern mechanics can be in places, they're not overtly time-wasting, shallow activities.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jesad

    And so I understand why they took them out of the game.  Still, they did have their place, as I am discussing from my soapbox.

    No they don't. Not according to devs, and many players. Otherwise, why is corpse run (or at least the EQ harsh brand of corpse run) taken out?

    Well I guess I can answer that with a variety of reasons...

    1. Console games - Console game players are traditionally averse to harsh death penalties and have been weened on the idea of the "last saved place" reset penalty for death. 

    2. Business Feasibility - Everquest is run by Sony.  Sony makes both PC games and Console games thus, the developers of Everquest are probably under a near constant scrutiny to remain economically feasible.  As you can see from this string, the number of players who appreciate more harsh death penalties are clearly lower than the number of players who prefer the console reset system, and so to hell with community, to hell with character viability, and to hell with anything that makes people not sit in front of these things as much as humanly possible.  It's a heck of a good business plan, but does it make for an overall better game experience?  Many, as you can also see from this string, would say no and those people can itemize the reasons why it doesn't.  Those that think it does however generally fall into pretty much the same category.  Scroll back and check it out, I'm not lying.

    3. Programming overhead - Not having to keep track of all of those corpses with all of that gear and all of those timers probably represents a substantial amount of databases that do not have to be created, accessed, or maintained.  Not to mention the entire subroutine itself.  I look at that one like this..."What?  They don't like corpse runs?  Well ok!  I didn't like having to do all that work anyway!  Give em a reset and let's keep on rolling!"

    4. Corpse runs still exist in several non-AAA games that lean more towards the "simulation" theory and less towards the "game" theory, and in these games they are still as viable a social mechanism as they always were.  One in particular that comes to mind is "Wizardry" which not only makes you run for your rez but puts adversaries in your path to attempt to permadeath you on the way.  Sure, the game could use a little more work, but on a bad day it gets your blood pumping like nothing else.

    5. Less customer service demand - I think this one is self explanatory but just in case I'll explain anyway.  Just a few posts back you will hear a guy talk about how he petitioned getting zone lagged and losing ships in Eve.  In his statement he doesn't just say it happened once, but many times.  He also states that when he petitioned he got no good response.  Imagine then how often that doesn't happen anymore once you remove the penalty of losing the ship.  Now imagine Eve without the possibility of losing your ship.

    I think I'll stop there but as you can see, at least from my understanding, and as I have said, there are just as many good reasons for not having corpse runs as there are for having them, but at the end of the day I am not just going to say that they are or were overall without worth just because you don't agree.

    I hope you consider that a reasonable response.

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  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by jesad

    You know, your opener summed up the entire reason corpse runs were great.  Because, in fact, without a more substantial penalty for death than just a reset, killing a mob boss is indeed just a zerg.

    Tell me if I am being truthful here or lying.

    In many games today people don't even wait for a rez anymore, they just click to respawn or even worse, in some games, pop right back up on the spot.  This almost nullifies the reason for having a resurrecting class in the group for anything other than to facilitate more forward momentum through heals.  This, in turn, makes players far less dependent on each other to do the particular tasks that each of them were built to do as there is no longer a reason to protect one another and THIS nullifies the need for almost any social interaction.

    All you really need to do is get into a group, zerg your way through the content, and leave once you've accomplished whatever task you came to accomplish.

    I see this happening all the time now, and it really takes a LOT away from the idea that these are supposed to be actual characters living in an actual world.  Setting up alternatives like timed events and other things like you have stated, only serves then to remove the player yet another step away from being able to enjoy the purpose that many people enter these games to fulfill, which is to play make believe.

    Now we just have another game like any other game.  May as well play on your console, because you have about as much chance or opportunity of feeling like a character in a 3d shooter or in a fighting game is representative of you (actually more at that point) than you do in a game where you are nothing but extra dps or heals.

    Actual death penalties however, change all of that.  If for no other reason than they prevent forward momentum until the group either reconfigures or addresses the death.  Sure, in a world where people are going to be impatient, are working with limited time, or are just plain not smart enough to know when to stop spamming their biggest damage spell, this in inconvenient.  But I, for one, believe that people can be taught to be better at these things, and that in the learning and overcoming of such shortcomings there are greater rewards such as a sense of accomplishment, a sense of improvement, a sense of community etc.... all the things that people come here and complain that they don't feel anymore.

    Right now the devs are just trying to make it so that everyone, young or old, smart or dumb, impatient or patient can play.  I don't hate on that because I know that they do this in order to make as much money as possible.  But just like your argument that they only had corpse runs in order to make money, the same can be said for not having them as well.

    The devs are going to get paid no matter what they do.  They don't do things that don't get them paid.  That's why they are devs.  Taking corpse runs, or other heavier death penalties out of the game however, shortchanges YOU, the player.

    Yadda, yadda, yadda, I could go on in about 5 different ways.

    A reset is (wait for it) a reset.  Which means (wait for it) the boss is reset.  Which means the boss can't be zerged.  So by definition what I'm describing is unzergable.  (And while I don't think you're lying, it makes me wonder if you've played a MMORPG in the last decade that you'd even consider the possibility of zergable bosses.)

    As for waiting for rezzes, resurrection is busywork.  It's not deep gameplay.  It doesn't add significantly to immersion.  In PVE if your entire party/raid automatically rezzed for free in the boss' chamber (or slightly prior to it, with a few trash mobs respawning) then that wouldn't impact the challenge of MMORPGs at all but would dramatically improve the pacing of death (which even in the best MMORPGs nowadays is still clunky.)

    The fact that you'd imply rezzing classes are relied upon to rez and not to perform their primary role (healing, etc) also makes me wonder if you've played an MMORPG in the past decade.  The complete removal of rez spells (apart from battle rezzing, naturally) would have no effect on the desire to take these players into the dungeon.

    In MMORPGs you either play skillfully enough to beat the challenge, or you wipe.  There is no "zerging through content", because until you exhibit enough skill you're going to keep wiping.  And while improved difficulty options are something more MMORPGs need (to ensure the challenge is actually challenging) increasing the death penalties wouldn't really make things any better (you'd either have easy content which is still too easy and zergable, or you'd have challenging content which is a complete hassle to engage with because some random asshat can screw up and waste you a lot of time, money, XP, or whatever.)

    The "keep it alive until I get back" has been a long standing tactic of most of the games that feature the "player reset" mode that have come out in the last 10 years.  A lot of the newer games don't even confine the raid to a dungeon anymore but instead just put the monster outside with the player respawn point just a little ways down the road.

    A tactic, may I add, that was impossible to accomplish when respawn points were way back in town and the gear needed to get passed the mobs that stood between you and the target was laying somewhere on the ground.

    The "boss reset" routine is buggy, frustrating, costly (when you add up all the clickies, pots, and item charges, coincidentally that are usually for sale in the item store, that get used only to have a boss randomly reset because your group has not achieved some pre-defined dps measurement that has NOTHING to do with skill or ability in most cases) and pales in comparison to the social aspects of having to rez, regroup, rebuff, and refocus offered by a full wipe complete with corpse retrieval.

    And now, with public quests, they are moving towards not even requiring a raid to communicate with one another in order to get that much done.  Even less reason to talk to each other.

    As for character differentiation, games have been attempting to remove the healer class from the picture all together. 

    GW2 makes everyone a healer.

    Star Wars gives everyone the ability to either heal themselves or mitigate damage to the point that it equates to healing.

    Rift allows everyone access to a healing archetype.

    So why even take a healer with you for any reason other that to facilitate the rest of the group ramming head first into the mob without having to worry about taking care of their self, and as far as that goes, why take a tank, crowd control, or even dps if you can do it all?

    As for challenge and/or skill in todays MMO, what challenge?  I defy you to name me even ONE mob, boss or otherwise that remains unbeatable or at the very least legendary in its difficulty.  There is no challenge.  How could there be when everyone can do everything and the only thing that counts are having the right numbers and the correct gear in order to hit the previously mentioned pre-defined dps number?

    You don't "play skillfully enough to beat the challenge" you get the right amount of gear from the expansion to hit that pre-defined dps number and you win.  Raid over.

    The only challenge that I know of these days is to keep from falling asleep at the keys as the game is served to you at pace, calculated by someone in the finance department, that will allow you to pay just enough for the company to make budget this year.

    Classes no longer matter, only numbers matter.  As a result you are no longer married to your class, you are no longer married to your character, and even more importantly you are no longer even married to the game anymore because all the game represents is a paper doll that you spend a month or two dressing up in shiny new clothes (also for sale in the player store) while you "casually" walk through the content on your way to max level and max boredom.

    All this because you are no longer required to rely on each others specific, individual skills, and you are no longer required to do that because the spells and abilities that were only in the game half the time because corpse runs existed, resurrection, invisibility, increased run speed, and most of all socialization, have been made obsolete with the removal of said corpse run.

    Look, I am all for the kids being able to play.  I love kids.  I wanna be one when I grow up.  I'm all for parents being able to take their kids along in these adventures because I think that's cool too.  But I am not going to sit here and say that corpse runs and rezzes didn't have a place in the social and character refining aspects of the games in which they existed just because you think that the only thing important in playing these game is the ability to keep moving.

    The name of the game is supposed to be RPG.  At the very minimum then you should have to play some kind of "role".  Whether that role be a physical one or a mental one should be up to you, but you should at least have a choice.

    If a tree falls in the forest though, and there is no one around to hear it, no one gives a damn.  And that's pretty much how an MMORPG without socialization works as well. Corpse runs, if nothing else, promoted the skills and abilities of the characters that were created to make them easier or even possible, and at the very least they promoted socializing.  So that's where I stand on that.

    Just because they required a little more time than you were willing to spend does not make any of this less true.

    image
  • KaledrenKaledren , NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    As compared to quest hubs from lvl 1 to 50-60 in today's MMORPG's? That seems like a much worse and longer period of shallow features.

    Corpse runs aren't constant...unless of course the person plays like a twit. Nor even the slow travel (Depending on the game in question). But again....in most MMORPG's today they are all built the same. Around shallow quest hubs that lead you from one to the next via map GPS or minimal NPC dialog very quickly just to get you to that "deep feature".

     The last part about designers is probably going to end up being correct. Just as those who play these themeparks now and tell us old schoolers to "move on" will probably (Some anyways)  be in our shoes when the market finds a new way. =)

    The leveling process is a failure of MMORPGs not learning from City of Heroes that you can do a difficulty slider and offer every player their sweet spot of challenge.

    So again, it's a little different from the overtly time-wasting, shallow activities of slow travel and corpse runs.  It is close though, because without sufficient challenge even a deep game mechanic loses the tension it needs to be deep in actual practice.

    Pointing out the places where today's games are poorly implemented does not rationalize the even shallower mechanics of the past.  (I can keep saying this each time you try to poke another hole in modern games, but it'd be nice if you got the point and realized that as bad as modern mechanics can be in places, they're not overtly time-wasting, shallow activities.)

    Dude. They are just as time wasting is what I am trying to point put to you. It's ALL based on wasting time to get you to stay and pay longer. Nothing has changed from then to now.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,414Member Uncommon
    'Back in the old days, we wasted time uphill, in the snow, both ways!  Not like you young whippersnappers!'

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,751Member Uncommon
    [mod edit]

     

    As for the topic itself. Can't say I miss corpse runs themselves, but I do think they are in a sense a lost opportunity.

     

    For example consider this idea. Combine phasing with death. When your character dies, they flip into an afterlife world like you see in WoW or similar titles. Rather than being an empty run to your corpse this way or you simply coming back to life to sprint to your body and recover stuff, you have what's essentially a second juxtaposed world to traverse, and an opportunity to expand game play based around the ability to do unique things and have adventures while dead.

     

    Simplifying death and revival shortcuts people to the action of usual play, but it also cuts out the potential of more varied and complex play. So I don't particularly miss corpse runs, but I can see the potential in the mechanics behind them.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

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