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Graphics: The Least of EQ: Next's Problems

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  • donpopukidonpopuki Dearborn, MIPosts: 591Member

    You're going to take the console crowd, toss them in with the F2P crowd, throw in the FPS/Twitch gaming crowd, and then place them in an environment where things can be destroyed? 

     I played FFXI for almost five years.

     

  • kyssarikyssari Tipton, IAPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Strayfe
    Originally posted by kyssari

    I find your analogy of doctors and lawyers being more loyal and better community members so to speak because of the hard work and dedication they put into getting there kind of ironic. In pretty much every f2p game out there the people who don't spend a dime have to put far more work and time into getting to max lvl and advancing their character than any player who dishes out the cash for all the perks to make it easier, yet the F2P player is the worthless bottom feeder? While your entitled to your opinions of course you don't need to come off sounding like the Hitler of online gaming by declaring anyone and everyone who doesn't subscribe to a game is a worthless bottomfeeder that ruins every game they touch. Theres just as many bad people who subscribe and dish out the cash as there are those who don't spend a dime. I've also played numerous games that are f2p with plenty of people who play them without spending a dime and said games have a far better community than a lot of sub games. I'll take the Vanguard community over the WoW community any day. Regardless of the games business model every game will have its bad apples, the simple fact of wether they spend the money or not doesn't mean they are any better or worse a member of the community. More and more I see more subscribers that are worse people because they become selfentitled arrogant elitists who think simply because they dished out some cash they are better than everyone else and this is not the case at all. Sorry to say but throwing a little cash around doesn't make you a better person than anyone else.

     

    I've been laid up for over 7 years with a damaged spine, unable to get out hardly let alone work, surviving off of limited assistance, only really able to interact with people online but regardless of that I am apparently a worthless bottom feeder because I can't afford to dish out the cash on a regular basis. Thanks for clearing that up OP I appreciate it.

    You misunderstood my post.  Doctors and lawyers aren't inherently better members of the community.  They are more loyal to their professions, because of the time and effort and money for school they have spent to get where they are.  They are less likely to change careers.  Likewise, a gaming experience that requires time, effort and money is more likely to retain customers long term, because they have more invested in it.

    A free to play game is like a McDonalds.  There are more people working at McDonalds than there are lawyers and doctors in the world.  But the turnover is extremely high, the quality of people working at a fast food place is generally lower because the job is easier and has far less requirements.  And employees at a McDonalds aren't likely to work there over the long term.  Why is this difficult to understand?  This isn't a personal attack.  It's a simple fact.

    I apologize for even posting my initial response and will simply stop here by no longer responding to your blatant bigotry, best of luck wherever your financial superiority may take you.

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABPosts: 437Member
    Exactly, I can only hope that people like the original poster never play this game.

    The masses have spoken, and it seems that the people that dislike the game are in the minority.

    What really concerns me is why the minority even cares enough to make long posts repeatedly on the same topics.
    Do you think you can change people's opinions?
    No, you just come out of the closet as a, well you know what.

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • cichy1012cichy1012 riverside, CAPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by killahh
    Exactly, I can only hope that people like the original poster never play this game.

    The masses have spoken, and it seems that the people that dislike the game are in the minority.

    What really concerns me is why the minority even cares enough to make long posts repeatedly on the same topics.
    Do you think you can change people's opinions?
    No, you just come out of the closet as a, well you know what.

     

    HEE HA HA LOL!!

  • wizardanimwizardanim Apple Valley, CAPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by Strayfe
    Originally posted by wizardanim

    Your use of the word "will" makes me believe you've played the game, or have information that the rest of us don't.  Can you share how these systems will work please so I can see your point?

    In my opinion, people have become lazy over the years, with dumb'd down mechanics like you said.  Throwing something at them that will make them think might be a good thing :)

    <snip>

    <reorder>

    Ergo, in the modern MMO, The AI "will" be exploited, and SOE will need to develop a way to prevent that.

    In WoW and most modern MMOs: consider this extremely simple example:  Player One is on the top of a very steep hill.  Player Two is at the bottom of the very steep hill.  Player Two lures a monster to the edge of the hill and uses a stealth skill to disappear.  Player One proceeds to shoot the monster from an unassailable position on top of the hill.

    Modern MMOs deal with this in one of two ways.  The monster will simply begin to evade every attack thrown at it and return to its spawn point.  Or else the monster will defy physics and walk directly up the side of the cliff to beat on the player.  Both of these break immersion.  What is considered a valid tactic in actual warfare is deemed an exploit by developers who then include "cheats" to enable the monster to continue fighting the player.  Players are discouraged from thinking and using the environment to their advantage.

     

    As for the orange text, I very much agree.  If they do incorporate a smart AI, we need to draw a line between winning vs. exploiting.

    As for the rest, that isn't really AI? I think that is just a problem that static spawns in a static world have created.  Mobs evade in wow because they have run too far away from their spawn location.  Or, they teleport in EQ because they can't find a valid path to the player, and can't just stand there ... I think EQN might just be an inherent solution to that problem; with their 'dynamic world ai'.

    I think one of the points that they are trying to make is that with the mobs roaming around free, players will be able to use the environment to get away from mobs, or even spark tactical approaches to fights that a static world would never provide.  

    Like you said I hope they can implement that well.  As far as software tech for AI, I feel that the tech is on the cusp of a revelation in many areas.  But is important to isolate the subject. Weather it is internal emotional struggle for the creature, or how the creature interacts with others in the world, how the creature interprets situations and thinks/plans ahead, or even how the creature reacts to the world around it with no players or creatures around.  Alright, now we are getting close to consciousness, perhaps?.  AI is huge.  Crowd behavior can be modeled completely independently from a single characters behavior.

    I do hope that storybricks and their AI team has pushed forward far enough to enable really dynamic adaptive creatures (dynamic world + dynamic setting (players) = need for dynamic learning AI) , but I agree, the ideal solution is a longshot.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Strayfe
    Originally posted by kyssari

    I find your analogy of doctors and lawyers being more loyal and better community members so to speak because of the hard work and dedication they put into getting there kind of ironic. In pretty much every f2p game out there the people who don't spend a dime have to put far more work and time into getting to max lvl and advancing their character than any player who dishes out the cash for all the perks to make it easier, yet the F2P player is the worthless bottom feeder? While your entitled to your opinions of course you don't need to come off sounding like the Hitler of online gaming by declaring anyone and everyone who doesn't subscribe to a game is a worthless bottomfeeder that ruins every game they touch. Theres just as many bad people who subscribe and dish out the cash as there are those who don't spend a dime. I've also played numerous games that are f2p with plenty of people who play them without spending a dime and said games have a far better community than a lot of sub games. I'll take the Vanguard community over the WoW community any day. Regardless of the games business model every game will have its bad apples, the simple fact of wether they spend the money or not doesn't mean they are any better or worse a member of the community. More and more I see more subscribers that are worse people because they become selfentitled arrogant elitists who think simply because they dished out some cash they are better than everyone else and this is not the case at all. Sorry to say but throwing a little cash around doesn't make you a better person than anyone else.

     

    I've been laid up for over 7 years with a damaged spine, unable to get out hardly let alone work, surviving off of limited assistance, only really able to interact with people online but regardless of that I am apparently a worthless bottom feeder because I can't afford to dish out the cash on a regular basis. Thanks for clearing that up OP I appreciate it.

    You misunderstood my post.  Doctors and lawyers aren't inherently better members of the community.  They are more loyal to their professions, because of the time and effort and money for school they have spent to get where they are.  They are less likely to change careers.  Likewise, a gaming experience that requires time, effort and money is more likely to retain customers long term, because they have more invested in it.

    A free to play game is like a McDonalds.  There are more people working at McDonalds than there are lawyers and doctors in the world.  But the turnover is extremely high, the quality of people working at a fast food place is generally lower because the job is easier and has far less requirements.  And employees at a McDonalds aren't likely to work there over the long term.  Why is this difficult to understand?  This isn't a personal attack.  It's a simple fact.

    What a giant load of:

    image

  • Vynxe_VaingloryVynxe_Vainglory Princeville, HIPosts: 20Member

    For every troll destroyer, there will be someone dedicated to killing troll destroyers.  

    I see no problem here.

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,664Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Strayfe

    You're combining four things, F2P, action/twitch combat, console gameplay and destructible environments.  Think about that for a second.  You're going to take the console crowd, toss them in with the F2P crowd, throw in the FPS/Twitch gaming crowd, and then place them in an environment where things can be destroyed?  This is like taking a prison camp on a field trip to a Columbian drug cartel, or a group of sex offenders to a whorehouse.

    You are taking the bottom feeders of the MMORPG community, the lowest common denominators, and giving them an environment where they have carte blanche to devastate any efforts at forming an actual community. 

    I'll wait for someone to offer the inevitable argument that, "You're generalizing a huge group of people, and it's not going to be that bad."  Trust me, it is.  

    Trust you why? Random internet person #1983193811 how do you know so much?

    What games/experiences do you have as an example? There seems to be this mythical scary gamer that roams the F2P, Action, Console worlds and brings pain and suffering to all those in the way, I've managed to avoid them for almost 18 years some how...surprised you didn't add in WoW kiddies as a generalization as well (they are the worstest!)

    There will always be dumb people trying to exploit game mechanics, stupid names, going over the top in chat, etc. It is the nature of the beast. Yes they are annoying and yes they can cause trouble, but it is unavoidable. Unfortunately, most MMOs do not come with IQ/Personality tests or maturity detectors.

    I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume SOE knows this and will have things in place to prevent a very small minority from causing too much havoc for the rest of their player base. They've clearly said that they want the game to be fun and will not cater to griefers.

    As far as destruction goes, even though they claim "everything" is destructible, they've basically said that certain areas (story driven) either won't be destructible or it will be very difficult to do so.

    A guild of morons isn't going to bulldoze Freeport or make huge pits for new players to fall in. Maybe they'll mow down a forest, but luckily EQN will be huge, plenty of forest for everyone.

    The game world will start healing after 5 min. If a guild really wants to devote all their time and energy to constantly destroying an area, oh no! Unless they have hundreds of people doing this at once forever, what harm will they really do? 

    You put way too much faith in the lower denominator. They usually get bored way too quickly or players/employees deal with them if needed. I'm pretty sure that if a individual or group are causing an even greater number to be unhappy, SOE will act.

    As someone that can fall into all the categories you list, as well as a MMORPG gamer, I find it funny that you feel so much superior due to your genre of choice. I've seen just as many idiots in MMORPG as I've seen in FPS, F2P, Console games over the years. No genre is exempt for trouble makers, nor are any exempt of people claiming the sky is falling...

    BTW...I think the graphics look top notch and can't wait to see more.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

    Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,664Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

    Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

    True, WoW is not known for having immature, lower denominator, kids playing it since it has a fee...heck EQ never had one single idiot ranting in chat or training mobs over people. Thank you monthly fees!

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

    Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

    True, WoW is not known for having immature, lower denominator, kids playing it since it has a fee...heck EQ never had one single idiot ranting in chat or training mobs over people. Thank you monthly fees!

    Irony is such a bad substitute for arguments.

    No single factor is all decisive, neither F2P or whatevs. But it certainly contributes to the lack of loyal communities. But I guess it is much easier to appeal to the laughing audience than to go into the nuances of multiple cause and effect connections. I understand that must be tiresome.

    Oops.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • StrayfeStrayfe Los Angeles, CAPosts: 189Member Uncommon

    Let's see.  To those who actually addressed the points, thank you.

    I will go ahead and concede that SOE may have things thought out well in advance.  That is certainly a possibility.  History has shown, however, that gamers have found ways to push, pull and prod content that even the most diligent developer never thought possible.  The systems included in EQN simply make it easier for jerks to be jerks in new and unique ways that don't have a history of other games worth of solutions in them to fall back on.

    SOE is trying to push the envelope in terms of game mechanics, they also have to be prepared to push the envelope in policing the way those mechanics are handled, particularly in light of their target audience (which, to my amazement, people seem to be insisting is no more poorly behaved than, say, the old school EQ crowd).

    I see this as a potential problem that has mostly gone overlooked amidst all the chest thumping over the graphics (which are fine as far as I'm concerned).  It may be more or less of a problem than I anticipate, but for all the people ignoring obvious facts and common sense and falling back on the 'bigot' labels and ad hominem attacks by trying to pretend that a McDonalds employee is just as intelligent, useful and beneficial to society as a doctor (to keep with the analogy) based on some misguided kumbaya moral high ground... well, classes and divisions in society and in MMOs exist for a reason.  Hint: it's not because of my opinion.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Elikal

    Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.

    Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.

    True, WoW is not known for having immature, lower denominator, kids playing it since it has a fee...heck EQ never had one single idiot ranting in chat or training mobs over people. Thank you monthly fees!

    Irony is such a bad substitute for arguments.

    No single factor is all decisive, neither F2P or whatevs. But it certainly contributes to the lack of loyal communities. But I guess it is much easier to appeal to the laughing audience than to go into the nuances of multiple cause and effect connections. I understand that must be tiresome.

    Oops.

    'Irony' is actually a bad substitute for 'sarcasm' - which is the word you wanted... /wink.

    My preference is for a subscription.

    My preference is also for a jet pack instead of a car.

    And like a subscription, I'm realistic enough to know that jet pack just ain't gonna happen.

    In this extremely competitive over-saturated market - releasing with a sub only and no f2p model would be business suicide. And as I said earlier.....there's only like 2 sub games left - you think subs are about to spring back into viability? stay down, Rocky - stay down.

    So as we have to do with so many things in life,  we must accept that reality isn't perfect. F2P models are, for the foreseeable future, the most logical way to survive. No matter what its unintended consequences are on 'community'.  I don't like it, but I accept it. 

    So, these days, I've trained myself to realize that a sub option is the best I can hope for in pretty much any game - and I'd be pretty surprised if EQN didn't have that option.

    There's always FFXIV for you folks. You can play that with a sub....oh I'm predicting maybe up to a year, before they have to cave.

    _________________________

     

     

  • BlazefireBlazefire Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 34Member

    You do realize that this is SOE's version of free to play right? Have you tried playing EQ2 under the "free" model they offer? It is pretty limiting... in fact I would call their free to play more like an extended trial, with the exception of Planetside 2. If you want to seriously play their games you pretty much have to subscribe due to the limitations.

    In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they limit free accounts as far as not being able to destroy certain things that a subscriber might be able to damage. If they haven't already thought of this then they should, I think it would be a good idea. Besides this limitation I'm sure there will be item, bag, mail, and other limitations imposed on these free accounts.

    These restrictions will hopefully keep some of the "bottom feeders" at bay, at least for the most part.

  • EhliyaEhliya Washington, DCPosts: 199Member

    Although I don't feel quite as certain yet since it is so early in the reveal, my instincts are to share the OP's gloom.

     

    As for FTP, it is basic human nature at work here.  Imagine two otherwise-identical high school seniors.  One of them has worked and saved and managed to buy a new car.  The other has had it given to them by their parents without charge and with the promise it will be replaced for free if he wrecks it.  Which car is likely to be better cared for and maintained?  The one which was purchased by the owner's resources and time?  Or the one handed away to him for free and with a promise to replace without cost?  I am not against FTP per se.  But I wonder if it limits the level of immersion and community that can be built in any game.  FTP works for shooters like PS2, where no one does anything but pull the trigger.  But if you want a virtual world, you need people committed to that world.

    As far as griefing, MMOs have been out long enough for us to know the answer.  Original UO launched as one of the most opened ended MMOs.  Griefing led to creation of Trammel.  No amount of fancy footwork or player justice could compensate.  Since then, the descent of MMOs into Theme-Parkery is directly tied to company decisions that they simply cannot afford the expense of trying to police griefing.  The cheapest thing is to take away player freedom, which they have done.  And which, to succeed, EQN will have to do if it persists in its current vision.

    FF XIV A Realm Reborn has it right.  Charge a monthly subscription if you plan on your game having a deep and immersive environment and development of a real and sustained community.   Yes, you will still have griefing and associated problems to some extent - they can never be eliminated.  However they will be of an order of magnitude less.

  • Burdoc101Burdoc101 Fort Campbell, KYPosts: 281Member

    Hey first post on MMORPG, so new to how the forum is used so I apologize if it isn't exactly how things are suppose to be done around here. Anyhow hope you enjoy.

     

     

    It really feels the majority of the thread is stating that “griefers” will come into the world to just ruin the game for everyone else. While this may be true for certain people who just want to run around the world and do that. I believe “griefing” is being taken out of context with some examples and could be a great benefit for the life and community of the game. (Whoa, already feeling the hostility, just give me a second to explain). Here is the definition of grief at its basic (just for reference):

    Grief-

    Noun

    ---Deep sorrow, esp. that caused by someone's death.

    ---Trouble or annoyance.

    Synonym

    ---sorrow – sadness – distress – woe – affliction - pain

    Antonym

    ---cheerfulness – bliss – joy – glee – pleasure – exhilaration

    At first glance over the word, there is nothing good out of it for the person/people being affected by it. But is not pain and sadness a flavor of life? Some of the greatest stories ever told had this element in it. And there is nothing more that I love in a game, then the immersion of it. Think about the implications for open world pvp servers (crossing my fingers). I take my examples from Mardy.

    “Think about you minding your own business, digging a tunnel to try to find some loot and what not, then someone else comes and breaks a hole under you and you fall.   Think about you fighting a mob or a group of mobs, you have only 1 escape route to exercise your combat moves, and someone puts up a wall that blocks your movement.  Think about you finding some world class loot, after 3 long days, and boom someone collapses the roof or breaks a hole under your feet, steals the loot and gets the fame for finding the loot.”

    That is memorable, that is a story and a great adventure waiting to happen. Maybe the two of you are battling, you call in your buddies the other guy calls in his. Then it becomes a large scale battle deep within the mines you are already in and you break the lair from Tier 2 level to Tier 3. Now you all are down there and the only way to get out is to team up, or run faster than the other guy, to avoid the high end monsters that want to kill you.

    For PVE/RP servers I see great potential as well for the community. Look at ArcheAge for example. I am not going to go into great detail (here is a link http://archeagesource.com/topic/1123-archeage-the-criminal-system-crime-court-prison-pirate-cbt5/), but they have a court system that is community driven. A community coming together and wanting to penalize the actions of a player. I mean how cool is that? Think about that being placed in EQ Next. Instead of waiting on a GM or petition to sort out a player. Let the player basis decide on that. And then with this you could have all sorts of fun too! Have bounty hunters (like in SWG) hunt down players and get rewarded. I mean people could be turned into heroes among the server, or even casted out like villains. I think the possibilities are just fantastic.

    The actual truth of this all is we still really don’t know what or how SOE is going to handle this. At least not until SOE releases all the information on the game (hurry up!!!). I would like to say that I think it is absolutely silly to think that PVP is not in the fore front minds of EQNext developers. Taking another quote from you Marty (thanks for being a good sport). “Except SOE didn't build this game with PvP in mind, they're focusing primarily on PvE.” A world that is destructible without PVP as a major focus? They would really miss the ball if they did not look at PVP.  Dave Georgeson has even stated in different interviews to think what they could do with pvp. He left a cryptic message but his attitude about this game, along with the rest of the development team (in my opinion), is looking to innovate the genre and click the refresh button so we can have an enjoyable new type of play experience.

    Going to pick at some points from Stayfe (great topic by the way to bring up!). I believe communities and players within the game make it an MMO and allow the MMO grow into a living thing of its own. Here is the quote from Stayfe I am looking at first:

    “I'll wait for someone to offer the inevitable argument that, "You're generalizing a huge group of people, and it's not going to be that bad."  Trust me, it is.  Lower barrier of entry -always-, without exception, results in lower commitment and loyalty.  Lack of loyalty and commitment results in a lower quality of customer.  This is really simple business practice and simple logic.  You don't see many people changing careers once they become a doctor or a lawyer, because it takes so much hard work and dedication to become a doctor or a lawyer.  How many quality people do you know who work at a fast food joint their entire life?  Exactly.”

    I think your right, a free to play game will have people roaming the world testing it out. It could be new players to the MMO scene or just people wanting to dig a hole in EQN for a let’s play video on youtube. I disagree though that they are generally bad for the game. EQN is being developed for the masses. It’s a refresh on the flagship of SOE and it has new innovations that for the most part have not been implemented well or have not been seen by other games. Having new players come to the game both the bad, good and ugly will be great advertisement for it. That being said and out of the way. Low quality players will not stick around and play EQN. They will come in droves at first, but EQN will settle down over time and the “high quality players” will shine like gold amongst the rust. And I define low quality players as people who are not committed to playing the game. People like that will leave.  High quality players however are people who create or form the communities of the game. They make the game stand the test of time. This game is not going to be a reboot of EQ 1, it is not being made to be a niche game. So there will be people who are “jerkwads”, but what do you do in real life? You just ignore them and move past them. Or you can create your own hole for them to fall down (my preferred choice).

    “The holy trinity and aggro style of combat mechanics are used, in part, not because they're outdated and work well, but because they are impossible (or very difficult) to exploit, being as basic as they are.  Any "advanced" AI can be tricked, outsmarted and exploited once it becomes understood because AI simply hasn't evolved far enough to create what SOE are claiming they can create, unless, by some miracle, SOE has a secret robotics and AI division that has managed to outdo NASA and MIT. “

    The holy trinity is so basic however, it is an exploited mechanic. It is an easy way to make a game and it is familiar for everyone to understand. Having a game that breaks the mold is great. And yea encounters I am sure will be exploited, but it will be in a different way at least. They have not released enough information how everything is going to be, but I would do some research on Storybricks (http://www.storybricks.com/), what they are going to use for their AI. It gives me a lot of hope that the world and creatures will be actually reacting to the the world around them (making them somewhat their own characters). Some examples for AI/combat I got from interviews with Dave Georgesson. A repeatedly used example was about orcs. They have likes/dislikes for their AI. What they enjoy is gold/lonely roads and their dislikes being cities/guards/dying. So you can go kill orcs and they will leave because they hate dying or you can tell the guards to patrol the roads where you saw orcs to push them back. Another example, more on the combat side of things, was a creature killing a person being healed is going to change target to the person that healed the person, because hey I cannot kill this guy because of that person so he needs to die first so I can kill the other person. Likewise the creature is not going to run around chasing the person while he is getting beat up from behind. Sadly this is the only example I have so far and yet again must go to, we don’t have enough information or examples still to confirm this about EQN. Only the word from the developers how it is going to/might play.

    I really do feel the developers want us to exploit the world around us. I mean they showed us an example of blowing up a bridge to kill creatures. I do not think for a moment they don’t want you to explore and find the best canopy or entrance to kill a creature. I think they will create some fantastic game play for escape routes and traps. I mean look at a stealth game like Deus Ex or Dishonored and even the open world of Skyrim. There are so many ways of completing the objective. I like how they give you the tools and say go figure it out. As long as EQN commits to not hand holding players I will love this game. There is no doubt that exploration and discovery are going to be hand in hand with destructibility and combat.

    “Minecraft succeeds in part BECAUSE it is a contained experience.”

    Minecraft has an extremely large community, if you are talking about single player, then yes it is contained. But if you a running a server (that does not have restrictions) you are going to come across people who: break down your house, burn it, set traps around it or steal items in your chest. I do not think that this is griefing. I feel griefing has been taken out of context to the point that PVP is now griefing. And that is a huge mistake. If crafting is a huge part of EQ Next maybe I want to take a war party and kill the people collecting resources because they are un guarded. Or travel to their home and burn it down because that will be my guilds next castle. This will promote community. Rival guilds after the best spot in the world for their place. It would be great if you could buy/hire NPCs to guard your guild place. People without the passcode/key/access is kill on sight. This type of gameplay should not be hated but embraced I feel like. And hey if you want an easier time there is always PVE servers.

    Don’t get me wrong I have my own concerns with how this game is, like a world looking like Swiss cheese I have no answer for until we are told more about EQN. I have a pretty optimistic outlook, but don’t mistake that for gullibility. I look to LOTR (the Two Towers) and how over foresting the area around Saruman caused it have a different feel and different look. And maybe a swiss cheese area, will cause new creatures and different consequences to occur just like how treants became angry and attacked the area.

    The most I want taken out from what I have said is that griefing should be looked at differently. I feel it is being placed out of context and a lot of the negative feedback about it could turn into some great gameplay to explore and form new innovative ideas. And secondly we won’t know anything until they release more information.

  • wsmarwsmar Nashville, TNPosts: 122Member
    Originally posted by Strayfe

    Let's see.  To those who actually addressed the points, thank you.

    I will go ahead and concede that SOE may have things thought out well in advance.  That is certainly a possibility.  History has shown, however, that gamers have found ways to push, pull and prod content that even the most diligent developer never thought possible.  The systems included in EQN simply make it easier for jerks to be jerks in new and unique ways that don't have a history of other games worth of solutions in them to fall back on.

    SOE is trying to push the envelope in terms of game mechanics, they also have to be prepared to push the envelope in policing the way those mechanics are handled, particularly in light of their target audience (which, to my amazement, people seem to be insisting is no more poorly behaved than, say, the old school EQ crowd).

    I see this as a potential problem that has mostly gone overlooked amidst all the chest thumping over the graphics (which are fine as far as I'm concerned).  It may be more or less of a problem than I anticipate, but for all the people ignoring obvious facts and common sense and falling back on the 'bigot' labels and ad hominem attacks by trying to pretend that a McDonalds employee is just as intelligent, useful and beneficial to society as a doctor (to keep with the analogy) based on some misguided kumbaya moral high ground... well, classes and divisions in society and in MMOs exist for a reason.  Hint: it's not because of my opinion.

     

    Your analogy between McDonald's and F2P games is just silly and really meaningless, not to mention that you honestly believe that one has to be intelligent to become a doctor or a lawyer. Let me clarify your statement so you don't sound like a complete jerk, in order for a person to become a good doctor or lawyer, they must be intelligent. I know a lot of very illogical and slow doctors, and lawyers.

     

    What you did was something I like to call a "blanket statement". I'm sure you are fully aware of the meaning of it, and why blanket statements are illogical. Something tells me you are a republican and are satisfied with the stereotype that poor people are stupid and lazy.

     

    As I said before, which you seemed to have avoided, trying to critique something by lacing it in negativity, will only lead to more negativity, and eventually stupidity. We have gone far past stupidity at this point.

     

  • EhliyaEhliya Washington, DCPosts: 199Member

    Nice post Burdoc and you state some things that keep me still on the fence on EQN, withholding final judgement.  One thought though on RP/PVP and the role of sadness and loss as natural to a believable world as happiness and gain.  The issue is proportion.

    Someone can always claim to be roleplaying a homicidal serial killer or a bandit who kills on sight.  However, as early UO showed, and given the realities of the Internet, you then end up with game populations that contain upwards of fifty percent of the players "roleplaying" homicidal serial killers.  

    Even Hannibal Lecter had his day job and he could provide amusing repartee before he killed you.  Your classic MMO PVPer dispenses violence 24/7 and mainly in ways that preclude any interaction other than hitting the /attack button.  For most PVPers the calculation remains:

    I have a weapon + I see you = I MUST kill you! 

    GL even blurting out a "hello" in such worlds.  Social interactions are few and far between.  So there is a real issue here of how you balance PVP freedom with maintaining a virtual world that doesn't resemble Lord of the Flies Online.

    BTW, I support PVP and am a PVPer.  But as time has gone on, respect for others who share these virtual worlds is becoming more important to me.  It may sound quaint, but I get enjoyment seeing others have fun as well, even though these aren't people I really know or will ever meet IRL.

  • BlazefireBlazefire Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by Strayfe

    I'll wait for someone to offer the inevitable argument that, "You're generalizing a huge group of people, and it's not going to be that bad."  Trust me, it is.  Lower barrier of entry -always-, without exception, results in lower commitment and loyalty.  Lack of loyalty and commitment results in a lower quality of customer.  This is really simple business practice and simple logic.  You don't see many people changing careers once they become a doctor or a lawyer, because it takes so much hard work and dedication to become a doctor or a lawyer.  How many quality people do you know who work at a fast food joint their entire life?  Exactly.

    I also think this statement is very unfair to those who work hard in industries that other "high and mighty" people think are stupid, poor, and lazy failures. Not everyone has amazing opportunities to have great paying jobs, this doesn't make them less of a person... or in your example, someone that goes around just trolling and griefing other players.

    There are quite a few shady lawyers and doctors out there, so these people could be just as likely to do these things as a fast food worker... that statement holds no logical argument.

  • kyssarikyssari Tipton, IAPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Ehliya

    Although I don't feel quite as certain yet since it is so early in the reveal, my instincts are to share the OP's gloom.

     

    As for FTP, it is basic human nature at work here.  Imagine two otherwise-identical high school seniors.  One of them has worked and saved and managed to buy a new car.  The other has had it given to them by their parents without charge and with the promise it will be replaced for free if he wrecks it.  Which car is likely to be better cared for and maintained?  The one which was purchased by the owner's resources and time?  Or the one handed away to him for free and with a promise to replace without cost?  I am not against FTP per se.  But I wonder if it limits the level of immersion and community that can be built in any game.  FTP works for shooters like PS2, where no one does anything but pull the trigger.  But if you want a virtual world, you need people committed to that world.

    As far as griefing, MMOs have been out long enough for us to know the answer.  Original UO launched as one of the most opened ended MMOs.  Griefing led to creation of Trammel.  No amount of fancy footwork or player justice could compensate.  Since then, the descent of MMOs into Theme-Parkery is directly tied to company decisions that they simply cannot afford the expense of trying to police griefing.  The cheapest thing is to take away player freedom, which they have done.  And which, to succeed, EQN will have to do if it persists in its current vision.

    FF XIV A Realm Reborn has it right.  Charge a monthly subscription if you plan on your game having a deep and immersive environment and development of a real and sustained community.   Yes, you will still have griefing and associated problems to some extent - they can never be eliminated.  However they will be of an order of magnitude less.

    I get what your saying with your analogy but it's not quite the way it would apply to F2P. To use your analogy more accurately the subscriber would be the one who buys his car outright with cash and bam there it is. The F2P player however would be the one who took the longer route of gathering all the materials needed himself to build it himself. F2P players are only given the basics for free and if they want to actually advance their characters they have to work harder at it than those who pay for the perks to make it easier. Either way there will be people among both groups who are both good and bad people in general. My only beef with the OP was that he simply declared EVERYONE who does not pay to be bad people and that simply is not true at all.

  • CallsignVegaCallsignVega Chicago, ILPosts: 235Member Uncommon
    So-called "destructible environments" will be completely over-rated and a non-factor in the grand scheme of things. Just another gimmick. 
  • grifjgrifj Bellevue, WAPosts: 110Member
    Originally posted by kyssari

    More and more I see more subscribers that are worse people because they become selfentitled arrogant elitists who think simply because they dished out some cash they are better than everyone else and this is not the case at all. Sorry to say but throwing a little cash around doesn't make you a better person than anyone else.

     

    They are better.  Without them, the bottom feeders couldn't continue to play games for free.  Gaming companies aren't in business solely for your pleasure.

  • EhliyaEhliya Washington, DCPosts: 199Member
    Originally posted by kyssari
    Originally posted by Ehliya

    Although I don't feel quite as certain yet since it is so early in the reveal, my instincts are to share the OP's gloom.

     

    As for FTP, it is basic human nature at work here.  Imagine two otherwise-identical high school seniors.  One of them has worked and saved and managed to buy a new car.  The other has had it given to them by their parents without charge and with the promise it will be replaced for free if he wrecks it.  Which car is likely to be better cared for and maintained?  The one which was purchased by the owner's resources and time?  Or the one handed away to him for free and with a promise to replace without cost?  I am not against FTP per se.  But I wonder if it limits the level of immersion and community that can be built in any game.  FTP works for shooters like PS2, where no one does anything but pull the trigger.  But if you want a virtual world, you need people committed to that world.

    As far as griefing, MMOs have been out long enough for us to know the answer.  Original UO launched as one of the most opened ended MMOs.  Griefing led to creation of Trammel.  No amount of fancy footwork or player justice could compensate.  Since then, the descent of MMOs into Theme-Parkery is directly tied to company decisions that they simply cannot afford the expense of trying to police griefing.  The cheapest thing is to take away player freedom, which they have done.  And which, to succeed, EQN will have to do if it persists in its current vision.

    FF XIV A Realm Reborn has it right.  Charge a monthly subscription if you plan on your game having a deep and immersive environment and development of a real and sustained community.   Yes, you will still have griefing and associated problems to some extent - they can never be eliminated.  However they will be of an order of magnitude less.

    I get what your saying with your analogy but it's not quite the way it would apply to F2P. To use your analogy more accurately the subscriber would be the one who buys his car outright with cash and bam there it is. The F2P player however would be the one who took the longer route of gathering all the materials needed himself to build it himself. F2P players are only given the basics for free and if they want to actually advance their characters they have to work harder at it than those who pay for the perks to make it easier. Either way there will be people among both groups who are both good and bad people in general. My only beef with the OP was that he simply declared EVERYONE who does not pay to be bad people and that simply is not true at all.

    Not sure what you mean.  The classic subscriber/FTP division limits functionality and content for the FTP player.  In other words, it doesn't matter how hard you work, you will hit a ceiling.  The subscriber, meanwhile, has the same hill to climb in the early/middle game as the FTP person.  They just have an opportunity to climb the next hill once they've conquered the basic one available to all.  Yes, a company can throw in perks and cash shop items to widen the gap between the two types of customers, but not all do.  And cash shops are another discussion anyway.

     

    I never said this had to do with people being good or bad.  It simply is how human nature works in terms of the weight or importance we accord to someone or something.  Who is your most treasured friend?  The one who you grew up with and interacted with since you were kids? Or the person you have never seen who "friends" your Facebook page?  Both can be good or bad or anything in between.  But the effort you put into a relationship means you treat it differently.

  • KrugusKrugus Hot Springs, ARPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by Strayfe  Finally, the points that I have made in my OP do not require anything more than common sense to understand. 

     

    As I tell my co workers, there is no such thing as common sense.  

    If common sense was common then everyone would have it.   Its Uncommon sense now....

     

    Anyways, I fully agree with the OP :)

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member
    Originally posted by CallsignVega
    So-called "destructible environments" will be completely over-rated and a non-factor in the grand scheme of things. Just another gimmick. 

     

    Hey everybody in zone, a rift just opened up. PST for raid invites. - Said nobody ever

    It's a gimmick alright and most likely an annoying one as time goes on.

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

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