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Do you miss corpse runs?

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    No. I just cut myself instead. The pain is more realistic and the fear of bleeding to death has more meaning.

    Volunteering for root canals works, until you run out of fresh teeth.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Dallas, TXPosts: 954Member Uncommon
    Sure, I miss the heightened anxiety that corpse runs can instill given certain scenarios, and I also recognize through the games I play that I'm a glutton for punishment. It's understandable why people don't like them, but I think outright saying that all corpse runs for every type of player are a waste of time is a mistake of calculation or an error in judgement, specifically those of us who are more interested in what I'd call "emergent story telling", that is to say, a series of non-scripted events which leads a player to experience the unexpected. The real problem with emergent story telling is that it's mostly just waiting for cool shit to happen, which always seems far more interesting because you've spent ninety percent of your time playing with yourself, staring at a wall, or in the case of corpse runs, tediously searching Greater Fay for a specific landmark.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • GorillaGorilla Posts: 2,202Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    No. I just cut myself instead. The pain is more realistic and the fear of bleeding to death has more meaning.

    That is a good substitution for the pain ( though slamming your testicles between a couple of bricks works well too). The problem is how to capture the complete and utter sense of frustration?

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KBishop
    Originally posted by munx4555
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Hell no.  Lineage didn't even have the luxury of corpse runs.  You rez'd and hoped to hell you could find your gear before someone else or a slime picked it up.  Gear loss and weeks or more of xp loss... I don't miss that at all.

    Even getting rez'd was a risk because the person rezzing you might just kill you again, or if your party is trying to rez you might all be too weakened to recover and die again with another full xp loss and more gear dropping.

    It never made the challenge better, only the threat of tedious re-leveling was motivation to avoid death.  It was a risk-taking deterrent and a bad mechanic that I'm glad has gone the way of the dodo in current design.

    Not as much a risk-taking deterrent as it was the risk itself.

    While Lineage took it to a extreme, and eq1's corpse run mechanics wernt perfect, the lack of risk in mmo's today is worse then the high risks in the older mmos.

    You never rly need to think twice about your actions anymore in mmos, just go for it and if you die no harm no foul, that in my opinion is a bad mechanic.

    Failure is a good enough risk already. If you fail, you lose, and you waste your time and that of others. That's the proper amount of risk because it's intrinsic to the game, and isn't further penalizing you for something that is essentially inevidable.

    There's a reason why rage quitting still exists after wipes

    Failure is enough of a punishment. You want the shiny, but you can't have the shiny.  You can still have fun with your friends trying.  You don't need a kick in the junk to remind you that everyone wiped because you didn't heal, cleanse, disco, burn the cooldown, etc.  Isn't enough to have to say you're sorry for the repair bill?

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    No. I just cut myself instead. The pain is more realistic and the fear of bleeding to death has more meaning.

    Volunteering for root canals works, until you run out of fresh teeth.

    See Mike, this is why we need LIKE buttons.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    The biggest thing that I don't understand is; Why should a gamer not be penalized for fucking up?

    The bruised knuckles from punching the wall aren't enough?

    Here's the thing: There is no in-game retribution for dying you can bestow upon a toon that I haven't experienced. I lived though droppage+breakage+corpse runs+dragging, all in the same title. You mmorpg pansies have it soft, by comparison. Devs in the early 90s were real sadists.

    Do you learn anything that swearing (at yourself) doesn't already teach? Any player who takes his skills seriously is truly annoyed (at themselves) every time they pull a bonehead and get swatted by something trivial. PVP players? You can just hear them punching their screens and going all Angry German Kid, sometimes.

     

    Darkfall wants to sell you "manly, macho, True Gamer Men chestthump", it's one of their marketing bullets. Real Death Penalties Rawr!!

    Yet...oddly...that remains a very small title.

    These features also, apparently, only 'sell' a sub to a tiny fraction of the audience.

     

    On the great sliding scale of "acceptable" vs "unacceptable", you're going to find a different point {x} where every player lies, regarding death penalties. Once you escape the forums and leave the posturing behind...it doesn't look like Big Death Pens are a 'selling' feature for very many people.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common
    I cant miss them, I still have them ...
  • AriannaeAriannae Hiding somewhere in the mountains, AKPosts: 40Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Do you learn anything that swearing (at yourself) doesn't already teach? Any player who takes his skills seriously is truly annoyed (at themselves) every time they pull a bonehead and get swatted by something trivial. PVP players? You can just hear them punching their screens and going all Angry German Kid, sometimes.

    This is something that I very much agree with. The problem, which is also probably why I ask why there shouldn't be a penalty, is that I don't think most players think like that. I've sat and watched people simply go at something, regardless of how many times they fail. And they're far more inclined to do so because there are next to no repercussions now. And I think that, right now, that is what the majority of gamers do. The jaded, cynical players that even -know- what a corpse run is are, frankly, not the majority anymore. We're an extremely niche group; hell, I'd be inclined to say that everyone on these forums are a niche group in comparison to the actual playerbases nowadays.

    I see more intelligence on these forums than in a lot of games. And that in itself says something, as I don't know how high I'd rank the average intelligence on these forums. And I think that's where my opinion, at least, stems from; those that already know better will continue to know better. You won't be able to teach them through corpse runs or major penalties. The other, far newer major influx of players that don't seem to know right from wrong until someone spells it out, word for word, however...

    Thus, if those that already know better avoid things such as corpse runs, because they -already- know better, then the only ones to seriously be penalized are those that don't have a clue. Which is what we need right now, given the current trends.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Ariannae
    You won't be able to teach them through corpse runs or major penalties. The other, far newer major influx of players that don't seem to know right from wrong until someone spells it out, word for word, however...

    Ah, you've been drinking the "my generation was just better" kool-aid.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AriannaeAriannae Hiding somewhere in the mountains, AKPosts: 40Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Ah, you've been drinking the "my generation was just better" kool-aid.

    I'm praying that's what it is. I do have a hard time believing that's what it is however, as I'm legitimately experiencing it in each and every game. I know there're always going to be good and bad players in each generation. That's a given. But it appears (And I do hope it's just paying more attention to it) that the players unwilling to think are outweighing those that actually do think as more and more players come onto the scene.

    I guess what should be said is that I don't necessarily miss corpse runs themselves. I do miss what they brought to the table though.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    I guess what should be said is that I don't necessarily miss corpse runs themselves. I do miss what they brought to the table though.

    Not seeing a benefit.

    But this is, in effect, a very old debate.

    See: corporal punishment. Now legal in only 49 states...wow, how'd that one miss spawning a media feeding frenzy?

     

    Anyway, back to bed, getting less coherent in the wee AM hours.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • PyndaPynda Posts: 738Member Uncommon

    Asheron's Call 1 had corpse run mechanics that left me with a lot of memories that I'll probably never forget. Now I don't know whether I would call most of these memories "good" ones, but adjectives like hair raising, challenging, or difficult might apply to a lot of them. And I'm not so sure that's really such a bad thing?


    In AC1 if you died you were hit with temporary skill penalties (the most common way to work these off was to revert to fighting lower level mobs for 15 minutes or so per death), and you would also drop items on your corpse. If you were smart you could more or less carry expensive trash items with you ("death items") which you would probably drop. But you could never be absolutely certain that something important wouldn't be lost when you died as well. And that you might have to go back to get it.


    No one could loot your corpse, but after a fairly generous amount of time - based on level - it would "decay". However what was neat was that the loot would then remain in the world for anyone else to pick up. I actually came across some pretty interesting gear finding these piles over the years.


    I did make friends retrieving corpses in AC1, and I learned some valuable lessons about playing MMORPGs well too. Which have carried on to other games with me. Also not bad things IMO. For example - one fundamental which comes to mind immediately.


    NEVER FIGHT IN A SPAWN ZONE - always lure your enemy away from it!

    Etc..


  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    The biggest thing that I don't understand is; Why should a gamer not be penalized for fucking up? Nine times out of ten, death is the result of player error. The player did something incorrectly. The result of that was death. I understand that it's a game, but why -shouldn't- the penalty of screwing up be harsh? Especially at the later levels, where a player should know better.

    Over the years, thousands of games have been made where the penalty for failure was an instant reset.  Yet players managed to have fun and be challenged in these games.

    So really the question falls to the Excessive Penalty crowd of why should a game be excessively penalizing?  It's not required for a game to be fun or challenging, so what's the reason?

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    The biggest thing that I don't understand is; Why should a gamer not be penalized for fucking up? Nine times out of ten, death is the result of player error. The player did something incorrectly. The result of that was death. I understand that it's a game, but why -shouldn't- the penalty of screwing up be harsh? Especially at the later levels, where a player should know better.

    Over the years, thousands of games have been made where the penalty for failure was an instant reset.  Yet players managed to have fun and be challenged in these games.

    So really the question falls to the Excessive Penalty crowd of why should a game be excessively penalizing?  It's not required for a game to be fun or challenging, so what's the reason?

    Why allow the player to die at all if that's the case?  Corpse runs were not so excessive compared to the old, carry the corpse to the local church if you didn't have a high enough level priest in your group, pen and paper model that all of these games were created to mimic.  And even that was not that bad in comparison to total character re-roll death, which in reality would be the real penalty in any kind of actual simulation of a somewhat real world.  But all of these things served to add just a little element of danger and consequence to a players actions, and that danger and consequence served to make players stop and think before making certain decisions, and that's what playing a role as a being in an alternate universe should be about.

    When you take away the consequence you take away the role-playing, and once you take that away you are no longer playing an RPG, you are just playing a game.

    But I can understand why you think the way you do.

    image
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon

    Nope, I don't miss that accidental death 15 minutes before I have to log out because I work next day, making me stay online for another hour or two instead just to get my stuff back, and then being exhausted at work the next morning.

     

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    They're mostly just a waste of time which sidetrack from a game's genuine challenges.

    It's better for a game to focus on providing deep and interesting challenges than to enact elaborate, time-consuming, and painful penalties.

    Well said.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • fonoifonoi Cape TownPosts: 56Member
    Yes and no, I used to enjoy when friends joined you on the recovery and it turned into a session of adventure. What I hated was late at night when you were the last one online and could not retrieve your corpse and often ended up leaving a few more behind.
  • stayBlindstayBlind Suwannee, GAPosts: 527Member
    Any game mechanics that penalize me for not playing smart are bad. I really wish a company out there would make a MMO that made you invincible; I just do not have time for dying and having to respawn and all that boring stuff.

    Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    The biggest thing that I don't understand is; Why should a gamer not be penalized for fucking up? Nine times out of ten, death is the result of player error. The player did something incorrectly. The result of that was death. I understand that it's a game, but why -shouldn't- the penalty of screwing up be harsh? Especially at the later levels, where a player should know better.

    Over the years, thousands of games have been made where the penalty for failure was an instant reset.  Yet players managed to have fun and be challenged in these games.

    So really the question falls to the Excessive Penalty crowd of why should a game be excessively penalizing?  It's not required for a game to be fun or challenging, so what's the reason?

      Excessively? well that is up to oppinion. Or if you wanted to you could try to quantify it in some way by player retention or a survey... Clearly there are many that dont feel that corpse retrieval excessive. There are even those that cry out that perma death is fine and I would agree that even permadeath rules should have a few games.

      Penalties do add to the challenge. There is always a design decission at some point of how harsh it is. Least would be to called a naughty word, but to be allowed to continue as if nothing had happened. Like if you were juggling and dropped all the balls, picked them up and kept on counting to infinity from where you left off after being called a loser. or is even picking the balls up again too much of an challenge.

      Or we could say it is like a subscription to scratch cards.. manic scratching - bah nothing - more manic scratching - bah nothing - frenzience scratching - ding you get 75xp and a mouldy hat +1. BORING but still potentially addictive

      I'd like a virtual world at best with ups and downs and lands that can be explored and exploited. Where the players create/live epic tales of trials and tribulations. At the very least I want to be playing poker instead of never ending scratch cards.

      Also KBishop said: "There's a reason why rage quitting still exists after wipes".

      Sure is. And there are so many more of them when you arent encouraged to deal with a failure, to suck it up and keep a cool head and organize a corpse run.

      Axehilt, you always come out swinging for the status quo of softcore casual gaming. But you are getting those games already, they are coming out all the time.. Why are you so set against a few games now and then that have a different rule set?

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by stayBlind
    Any game mechanics that penalize me for not playing smart are bad. I really wish a company out there would make a MMO that made you invincible; I just do not have time for dying and having to respawn and all that boring stuff.

      F*ck yeah noclip godmode with aimbots and macroing.

      Oh wait movies have better graphics and generally keep me interested longer than most MMOs in the last 10 years.

      Why? Because movies have character, thats CHARACTER, development and a story that isnt just; amanrunsintoabrickwalleverydayfor10yearsandfinallyheknocksitovertheend. to be continued in manrunsintowall2. 

     

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member
    Nope
  • LogicLesterLogicLester Claremont, CAPosts: 68Member

    Nope, I don't miss corpse runs ala EQ, not even a little bit.  They were a dull, annoying time sink, and generally a penalty for lagging out or getting jumped by a mob train or the zone's roaming insta-gib mob.

     

    If you're going to include death penalties, then make them believable.  Permanent loss, eventually permanent death, and true loss of equipment if you aren't able to reach where you died before someone or something else loots it.  If not, then it's just a namby pamby wussfest anyway and I'd rather it be a wussfest that isn't also time consuming and highly annoying.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    I do. It was an unscripted event that added to the gameplay, in my opinion.

    Also to your #5 point (Friends gathering to help you), I also met many strangers both helping others and being helped.

    After awhile, it made players think. "If I die, can I get my corpse back?" Add to that corpse and item loss (after 6 or 7 days) and players thought about things a little more.

    I realize that corpse runs were the "levellus interruptus" for many players, and they probably despised them with a passion. Personally, I liking making lemonade when handed lemons :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jesad

    Why allow the player to die at all if that's the case?  Corpse runs were not so excessive compared to the old, carry the corpse to the local church if you didn't have a high enough level priest in your group, pen and paper model that all of these games were created to mimic.  And even that was not that bad in comparison to total character re-roll death, which in reality would be the real penalty in any kind of actual simulation of a somewhat real world.  But all of these things served to add just a little element of danger and consequence to a players actions, and that danger and consequence served to make players stop and think before making certain decisions, and that's what playing a role as a being in an alternate universe should be about.

    When you take away the consequence you take away the role-playing, and once you take that away you are no longer playing an RPG, you are just playing a game.

    But I can understand why you think the way you do.

    Why allow the player to die?  Well because for the way MMORPGs are set up, failure to exhibit enough skill needs to result in a mob reset or you're going to kill the boss even when you fail.  You see this with boring zergable open world bosses still sometimes, where players can die and still kill the boss by graveyard-zerging it.  Boring.

    Death isn't technically required in all games, and a game can actually offer significant challenge without any failure state at all. Geometry Wars 2's Deadline game mode provides infinite lives but you only get 3 minutes with which to try to make a high score.  Granted, dying is actually rather significant in that mode (it wipes the board and disables enemy spawning for a few seconds.)  But it's not hard to imagine a similar timed-bonus-game style game without any concept of death which is extremely hard to place high on a leaderboard because it's a very deep, skill-rewarding game.  (Actually I would imagine skateboard games are probably like this, but I haven't played one of those in like 10 years.)

    But for MMORPGs, with how their rewards are set up, you need death or a similar reset to be the penalty for failing to exhibit enough skill.  But any penalty beyond that reset is just excessive time-wasting; a relic of either the subscription business model (which makes money by making you waste more time) or poor design sense.

    Death in early tabletop games was fairly poorly designed.  Nobody was all that excited at having to sit out 2/3rds of a tabletop session just because their character died.  The point of tabletop RPGs was to have a fun balance of collaborative story-telling and tactical combat.  Forcing someone to sit out for more than half the session was just garbage

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WW4BW

      Excessively? well that is up to oppinion. Or if you wanted to you could try to quantify it in some way by player retention or a survey... Clearly there are many that dont feel that corpse retrieval excessive. There are even those that cry out that perma death is fine and I would agree that even permadeath rules should have a few games.

      Penalties do add to the challenge. There is always a design decission at some point of how harsh it is. Least would be to called a naughty word, but to be allowed to continue as if nothing had happened. Like if you were juggling and dropped all the balls, picked them up and kept on counting to infinity from where you left off after being called a loser. or is even picking the balls up again too much of an challenge.

      Or we could say it is like a subscription to scratch cards.. manic scratching - bah nothing - more manic scratching - bah nothing - frenzience scratching - ding you get 75xp and a mouldy hat +1. BORING but still potentially addictive

      I'd like a virtual world at best with ups and downs and lands that can be explored and exploited. Where the players create/live epic tales of trials and tribulations. At the very least I want to be playing poker instead of never ending scratch cards.

      Also KBishop said: "There's a reason why rage quitting still exists after wipes".

      Sure is. And there are so many more of them when you arent encouraged to deal with a failure, to suck it up and keep a cool head and organize a corpse run.

      Axehilt, you always come out swinging for the status quo of softcore casual gaming. But you are getting those games already, they are coming out all the time.. Why are you so set against a few games now and then that have a different rule set?

    Penalties don't add to challenge.

    • Challenge is the measure of how much skill is necessary to avoid failure.
    • Penalty is what happens if you fail.
    Note that penalty only occurs after the challenge has ended.  It has no significant influence on how difficult the challenge was.
     
    There's nothing casual about wanting games to get back to the roots of being about the challenge not the penalty.  Interesting, hard challenges are what we need more of, not to waste time dealing with penalties.  There's really no reason to want to engage with shallow systems devoid of challenge (like corpse runs) when we could be playing the deeper game systems instead.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by WW4BW

      Excessively? well that is up to oppinion. Or if you wanted to you could try to quantify it in some way by player retention or a survey... Clearly there are many that dont feel that corpse retrieval excessive. There are even those that cry out that perma death is fine and I would agree that even permadeath rules should have a few games.

      Penalties do add to the challenge. There is always a design decission at some point of how harsh it is. Least would be to called a naughty word, but to be allowed to continue as if nothing had happened. Like if you were juggling and dropped all the balls, picked them up and kept on counting to infinity from where you left off after being called a loser. or is even picking the balls up again too much of an challenge.

      Or we could say it is like a subscription to scratch cards.. manic scratching - bah nothing - more manic scratching - bah nothing - frenzience scratching - ding you get 75xp and a mouldy hat +1. BORING but still potentially addictive

      I'd like a virtual world at best with ups and downs and lands that can be explored and exploited. Where the players create/live epic tales of trials and tribulations. At the very least I want to be playing poker instead of never ending scratch cards.

      Also KBishop said: "There's a reason why rage quitting still exists after wipes".

      Sure is. And there are so many more of them when you arent encouraged to deal with a failure, to suck it up and keep a cool head and organize a corpse run.

      Axehilt, you always come out swinging for the status quo of softcore casual gaming. But you are getting those games already, they are coming out all the time.. Why are you so set against a few games now and then that have a different rule set?

    Penalties don't add to challenge.

    • Challenge is the measure of how much skill is necessary to avoid failure.
    • Penalty is what happens if you fail.
    Note that penalty only occurs after the challenge has ended.  It has no significant influence on how difficult the challenge was.
     
    There's nothing casual about wanting games to get back to the roots of being about the challenge not the penalty.  Interesting, hard challenges are what we need more of, not to waste time dealing with penalties.  There's really no reason to want to engage with shallow systems devoid of challenge (like corpse runs) when we could be playing the deeper game systems instead.

    I agree once again, a fine display of logic here.

    Some people still confuse "challenge" with "tedium".

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

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