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Storybricks bombshell

2

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  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member

    Trinity doesn't work in PvP?

     

    That is only true if you play PvP like it was PvE.

     

    Have you never outlasted an opponent because you were healed? Have you never held off

    an opponent or multiple opponents for a period of time long enough for reinforcements to

    arrive?

    Ever CC an opponent & remove them as a factor in a fight?

     

    I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree (within reason), as trinity obviously is played in a

    modified manner when comparing PvP to PvE.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    Wasn't the trinity started in PnP games which MMOs are based on, not AI? I'm seriously asking.

    Misconception

    PnP didn't have the aggro system that makes the trinity possible.The GM/DM decided who the enemy NPCs were gonna attack based not only on player positions but monster intelligence,what was happening and their own discretion.

    Classes or Roles were a combination of defensive,offensive and support abilities and equipment limitations.Some classes were better at DPS  and/or CC,others at soaking damage and others at non combat things.But there was no official trinity and you could adventure with just about any class mix albeit you may have a harder time but it was still possible.

    TLDR : PnP had the basic strategic combat roles of Defense,Offense and Support but not a rigid trinity or aggro.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Drakynn
    Originally posted by Tierless Wasn't the trinity started in PnP games which MMOs are based on, not AI? I'm seriously asking.
    Misconception

    PnP didn't have the aggro system that makes the trinity possible.The GM/DM decided who the enemy NPCs were gonna attack based not only on player positions but monster intelligence,what was happening and their own discretion.

    Classes or Roles were a combination of defensive,offensive and support abilities and equipment limitations.Some classes were better at DPS  and/or CC,others at soaking damage and others at non combat things.But there was no official trinity and you could adventure with just about any class mix albeit you may have a harder time but it was still possible.

    TLDR : PnP had the basic strategic combat roles of Defense,Offense and Support but not a rigid trinity or aggro.


    Thanks.

    Personally I like the trinity simple because it creates a symbiotic player dynamic.

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member

      Well, as long as there are collission checks so I, as a melee fighter, can physicly block the route to the healer or caster, then I am fine with better AI. It often sucks being a tank in PvP precisely because you cannot do what you are supposed to do as a tank keep the enemy from attacking your powerful but soft allies.

      If it means that CC is the new tank, then you still have a trinity system: CC DPS and Healer. 

      I would like to play as a "wall", Not doing much damage but making sure that others arent getting hit. I dont need a hate mechanic to do that, if I have other options. But chasing a monster that may or may not switch targets just doing dps is not my idea of interesting. 

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common
    Originally posted by Daaken

    https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=365150981861801984&original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eqnexus.com%2F2013%2F08%2Fweekend-roundup-4-everquest-next-information-index-grows%2F&tw_i=365150981861801984&tw_p=tweetembed

     

    What we are trying to show is that once you remove the boundaries of a scripted AI having a trinity or not becomes a minor issue.

     

     

    Wow, who da thunk it!  This is why people shouldn't be so upset over the removal of the trinity.  As I said in other posts, it is common sense to know the archaic Trinity system breaks down in the face of Smart A.I.  So you can either quit complaining and change your mindset, quit comparing it to a game like GW2, or continue living in the MMO middle ages with your archaic game design.

     

     

     

     

    I keep reading stuff like that but i dont get it why would the trinity fail if the AI is smarter?

    People say a mob would not just attack the tank but go for the one dealing the most dmg but what if the tank just turns the mob around whenever it turns its back to the tank.

    Maybe have the DD hide behind the tank and his shield just block the paths of the mob with a shieldwall when it tries to go for a healer.

    I think that if we would get smarter AI the Trinity would finally work better and not like a lot claim would become useless.

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common
    Originally posted by Daaken

    https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=365150981861801984&original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eqnexus.com%2F2013%2F08%2Fweekend-roundup-4-everquest-next-information-index-grows%2F&tw_i=365150981861801984&tw_p=tweetembed

     

    What we are trying to show is that once you remove the boundaries of a scripted AI having a trinity or not becomes a minor issue.

     

     

    Wow, who da thunk it!  This is why people shouldn't be so upset over the removal of the trinity.  As I said in other posts, it is common sense to know the archaic Trinity system breaks down in the face of Smart A.I.  So you can either quit complaining and change your mindset, quit comparing it to a game like GW2, or continue living in the MMO middle ages with your archaic game design.

    Sorry, am I missing something here... all that tweet says is "our AI will make combat good, trust us", which is pretty much what they've said all along.

     

    I'm happy to give them a chance to prove that this amazing AI of theirs can replace proven encounter design mechanics, but nothing in that tweet really tells me anything. 

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
    Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  • EeksEeks New York, NYPosts: 72Member
    Originally posted by Doomedfox

    I keep reading stuff like that but i dont get it why would the trinity fail if the AI is smarter?

    People say a mob would not just attack the tank but go for the one dealing the most dmg but what if the tank just turns the mob around whenever it turns its back to the tank.

    Maybe have the DD hide behind the tank and his shield just block the paths of the mob with a shieldwall when it tries to go for a healer.

    I think that if we would get smarter AI the Trinity would finally work better and not like a lot claim would become useless.

    It's very possible.  I think (Speculation) when they talk about all this down with the trinity talk they're more referring to being able to find success with groups that don't have the standard make up.  Maybe using lots of movement mechanics, root, stuns, to do the job since you don't have a warrior taunting.  There was a tweet from Darrin in regards to odd group makeup this morning:

     

    @TaliskerDev Is it possible to have like 5 warriors do the dungeon by themselves , as long as they are skilled enough?

    — Jat (@Jat0013)

     

    @Jat0013 if they have diverse builds? Probably depending on the dungeon. If they are all built the same way it may not be possible.

    — Darrin McPherson (@TaliskerDev)

     

     

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member

    Makes perfect sense to me...and about freakin time as well

    Most memorable experiences in PvE was when I was engaging an intelligent MOB that had to be player controlled cuz there wasn't no way I was going to fool it and ended up dead once and feigned dead the second time and both experiences were in Everquest. I figured the MOB encounters were under human control somehow as there was no other way to explain uncanny AI.

    All these people resisting change is more common then most realize. Just goes to show you people are more sentimental then they care to admit.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Daaken

    https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=365150981861801984&original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eqnexus.com%2F2013%2F08%2Fweekend-roundup-4-everquest-next-information-index-grows%2F&tw_i=365150981861801984&tw_p=tweetembed

     

    What we are trying to show is that once you remove the boundaries of a scripted AI having a trinity or not becomes a minor issue.

     

     

    Wow, who da thunk it!  This is why people shouldn't be so upset over the removal of the trinity.  As I said in other posts, it is common sense to know the archaic Trinity system breaks down in the face of Smart A.I.  So you can either quit complaining and change your mindset, quit comparing it to a game like GW2, or continue living in the MMO middle ages with your archaic game design.

     

     

     

     

     

    Ya quit comparing it to a game like GW2 when it  has so many things the same. Just ignore that. Pay attention to the hype instead. Hype has never lead anyone wrong, right?

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,464Member Uncommon

    Umm not only common sense but FACT is we know AI is simple scripted code,there is no such thing as smart AI.

    Trinity breaks down as ANY system does when a developer runs out of good ideas or simply tries to make too many different ideas or the worst case,they simply go all in lame and make bosses immune to an y good skill a player has.

    If your going to make a boss immune to sleep,stun or any other decent ability,you are just going the lazy route on designing good combat.Devs are so preoccupied with making sure players don't finish the high end content too fast,so they look for ways to make it near impossible to win.Then like ALL scripted combat,once players figure it out,it becomes simpleton time,doesn't matter what type of system you have anymore.

    They are sort of correct in that removing scripted AI would remove the stigma of either Ttrinity or sloppy but fact is it will ALWAYS be scripted.To me it is just more nonsense talk,like  every dev is coming out with some new speech telling us how they are changing the genre for the better.

    IMO if you can't work with an "organized" Trinity system,then you have no business trying to go outside the box.SO far i have seen NOBODY go more advanced than FFXI for the Trinity system,so all these devs are still in amateur mode for combat design.

    The whole thing to me smells of the Free to play cash shop idea.Every developer is looking for ways to minimize game design and cut costs,so they are all jumping on the same bandwagons trying to support THEIR designs.I see a trend in doing less and forcing players to pick from less choice always the trend to do LESS.

     

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    It sounds like SoE is still allowing people to play those roles via the skills they have, just not to the point that you NEED them. Will content still end up easier if you have a good "tank"? I think so from what I've seen.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    The 'diverse builds' comment gives me hope that healing and utility builds exist and that they are just removing the aggro magnet role of fighters.
  • nisraknisrak Honolulu, HIPosts: 70Member

    You're right that all AI is scripted, however that doesn't mean it isn't complex and highly variable.  It's true people will begin to understand exactly how the system works and try to exploit it, but I have faith that a more advanced system is possible than just "if warrior.threat > wizard.threat, attack warrior".  Even in the few WoW events that attempt to use more advanced AI (the PVP-esque encounters), I had a lot more fun than the usual mindless tank-and-spank that every other event ultimate degrades to.

    Either way, I think we can agree that using more than 1 variable to control mob behavior is a good thing.

  • nolic1nolic1 Kingman, AZPosts: 687Member Uncommon

    Ok I like this it would be super great to see more reactive combat in a game like an mmo. So one I am gonna say that the trinity worked in some games but it really does need to go or dungeons and raids need to change to fit more or all group dynamics such as a group with out a tank or healer or maybe one thats got more then one. But they need to change some where and heres my reason why.

    Most games in the past where made from PnP games in most of them they did not have trinity yeah the warrior could get between the mob but it never stopped them. But I think companies need to start looking to the roots of where the design ideas came from and make it so groups of all dynamics can complete them such as sorry not using the term Tank Healer DPS but by class name Warrior Rogue and mage or Mage rogue and ranger this and even to larger groups of 2 Rogues, 1 Druid, 1 paladin, 2 mages and a bard. These party types should work just as well as one with a Cleric, Warrior, 2 rogues, Druid, and a shadowknight not because the game requires it based on a dungeon or raid but thats what the players want to be. This makes things more diverse and less set to a specific standard.

    Today a Warrior is not a warrior there a meat shield or tank they are not really a warrior cause a warrior can play many roles in a fight not just one same with a cleric they can be more then a healer they can fight as well they are not given a mace to enhance there spell casting its there to hit mobs and a rogue can do more then stealth and backstab there rogues they steal stuff and do sneaky stuff as well. Point is there not there to do just one role they can do more then that but either players or companies made them into certain roles thats a argument for another post. I dont play a bard in EQ to just do CC I played them to be what they are an adventurer that gains there stories through adventure or by hearing the adventures of others in D&D they where a jack of all trades but a master of none not a CC or mana battery they could do alot of things more in First edition then the others but you get the point classes are not just roles they define some of a character not all of it.

    image
    To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  • isslingissling San Francisco, CAPosts: 157Member Uncommon

    And since the Trinity is gone don't you think then it becomes a dps, heal, cc, evade like dodge, roll or short teleports. Add the telecasting of skill with  those red squares and such and it becomes like a mini game of dodging the red square like people say is what we do with to many hotbars?

    I am hoping you guys are right and the AI is all that, but give me some examples of your super AI and the tactics it will be using? I am not trying to sound like I am baiting anybody, but just trying to wrap my head around what you guys are saying.

  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Umm not only common sense but FACT is we know AI is simple scripted code,there is no such thing as smart AI.

     

      It is quite possible to get complexity from simplicity. 

      The taunt mechanic forced simplicity whenever things started getting a bit interesting. You could possible put some blame on the hate mechanic too. 

      But gameplay had to be reasonably simplistic and predictable to allow for higher latency in the past as well as lack of computing power for tracking collision and such.

      Im not expecting people will have to fight Deep Blue, Whatson, SkyNet or anything like that. But I hope that the fights will be come a little less predictable and more emergent. 

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    Where's the "bombshell?"

     

    This is the same PR speak that has been used since the reveal, I'll wait to see it in action before I get excited.

     

    Sorry but I've seen this before, in  cases like The Elder Scrolls Oblivion with their "Radiant" AI that never worked out among other games.

     

    I hope they can pull it off but just talking about it isn't going to get me worked up until I see it in action.

  • jerlot65jerlot65 Lake Mary, FLPosts: 788Member
    Originally posted by Daaken

    https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=365150981861801984&original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eqnexus.com%2F2013%2F08%2Fweekend-roundup-4-everquest-next-information-index-grows%2F&tw_i=365150981861801984&tw_p=tweetembed

     

    What we are trying to show is that once you remove the boundaries of a scripted AI having a trinity or not becomes a minor issue.

     

     

    Wow, who da thunk it!  This is why people shouldn't be so upset over the removal of the trinity.  As I said in other posts, it is common sense to know the archaic Trinity system breaks down in the face of Smart A.I.  So you can either quit complaining and change your mindset, quit comparing it to a game like GW2, or continue living in the MMO middle ages with your archaic game design.

     

     

     

     

    The problem is right now its all talk.  We don't really know how "advanced" Storybrick's AI will be.  I've heard this from other companies that their AI so much more advanced, only to finally see it in game and actually be worst then MMO's that have been out for years.

    Dont get me wrong.  Im not going to be pessimistic about this like some other people.  But posting this doesnt really prove anything to the people for or against this game.

    image
  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member
    Originally posted by Gn-Menevenen
     
     

    This ISN'T CHANGE you delusional buffoon.

     

    This is copying Guild Wars 2 & MOBAs (AKA >WORLD OF WARCRAFT< DOTA-DEMON SPAWN) & ACTING LIKE ITS DIFFERENT because of multi-classing & unique weapon animations (& "maybe" improved artificial intelligence... n_n''...).

     

    What CHANGE would've been, would've been KEEPING their concrete, Quadrinity-centric, high class & high race counts.

     

    WHICH THEY supposedly >DID NOT< do (oh hi, "life of consequence", yet dedicated priest/tank/crowd control roles "aren't needed").

     

    You can't count 40 classes with 8 abilities as high class counts...

     

    ...we can only wait & see the depth & the "immersion" of 8-20 second rotations.

     

    Yes, obvious opportunities for a multiplication of rock/paper/scissors & chess-styled gameplay times 20.

     

    Again, we wait & see. A "life of consequence", to ME, IS BULLSH17 when you can change your class on the fly.

      Very good points, albeit poorly presented.

      They are the very reasons I fear that EQN might end up being just another action focused ability spam fest, where twitch skills are more important than "social skills" and intelligence. (I put social skills in quotes since many social players might have trouble with the same skills in real life for whatever reason)

     

  • jubjubyejubjubye Boston, MAPosts: 2Member
    Tactical over simple. That can be the difference between GW2 & 4 hard base class DEMANDS.
  • solarbear88solarbear88 BathurstPosts: 73Member

    I am not sure what people are talking about with PnP games and the Trinity.

    Generally, hybrid characters were the most successful, typically in games where multiclassing existed.

    Take NeverWinter Nights.  Based on DnD 3.0.  I think NWN2 was based on 3.5.  Fighter/Cleric most common class.  High defense, high damage and could full heal when needed.  Fighter/Rogue very common.  High defense, high damage and could pick locks and traps.  Wizard/Sorc. Burst damage and lots of CC.

     

    Now there were a lot of exploits that people could do like Acid Sheaf with high DR.  But what I saw, when the GM had a handle on exploits, was people often making classes that could do at least 2 things very well.  A Fighter/Rogue and a Fighter/Cleric could do some very difficult content together, for example.

     

    I hope that EQ brings a bit of a return to this.  I could see a person mixing a Warior Type class with a Healing class.  Suddenly the AI is going hey this thing is close, its damage its high and its healing.  And go nuts attacking it.  Suddenly, you don't need that person at the back spamming a heal button.  One of your friends might be spamming control and damage and another might be doing damage and secondary healing.  There could be a lot of variation.  Since this will be largely an outdoor game with few instances, there could be significant benefit for taking on hard content with less and less people.

     

    GW2 tried to do this but was only partially successful.  Boss mobs, particularly outdoor ones, were often too hard to mele and everyone went ranged.  Range and strafe, rinse and repeat.I could do 95% of the content like this.  My big concern is the AI will be a flop and it will become a dodge and strafe game like GW2. 

     

  • DemalisDemalis Drumheller, ABPosts: 134Member
    Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

    Trinity doesn't work in PvP?

     

    That is only true if you play PvP like it was PvE.

     

    Have you never outlasted an opponent because you were healed? Have you never held off

    an opponent or multiple opponents for a period of time long enough for reinforcements to

    arrive?

    Ever CC an opponent & remove them as a factor in a fight?

     

    I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree (within reason), as trinity obviously is played in a

    modified manner when comparing PvP to PvE.

    I love pvp as a tank, sure it takes me forever to win, but I do and surprisingly more than I thought I would have. My favorite move is run into a group focus on one guy, usually a healer, then everyone turns on me pop my cd's as dps picks em off from afar. This is by far more enjoyable when a healer hangs on to me, and I live through it. Strategically though it scatters the opposing teams tactics and can even turn the tide of battle.

    To the OP proof is in the pudding.

    Blind faith simply put, makes you look like a lemming.

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by munx4555

    All I can say is people are putting a hell of alot of faith in a AI they havn't seen a thing of, storybricks itself is a company that is completly unproven atm.

    Don't get me wrong, I hope the AI will be as awesome as they claim, but I try to be a realist atleast some of the time.

     

    And even if the AI is as advanced as they claim, have anyone here played pvp in mmos lately? even when fighting against actual human players these roles are still important, without pvp becomes a zerg aswell.

    And they will remain important until we see a mmorpg that has combat as advanced as mount and blade in which case we will really just see new roles such as: Infantry-Archer-Cavlary.

    In my opinions roles are a must in a Mmorpg, it dosnt have to be the original trinity, but if the need for certain roles just isnt there, you will end up with a zerg mentality.

     

     

    I really hope it works out, and dosnt become a boring zerg like gw2, but I don't see anyway around the inevitable chessboard with only pawns problem.

    WUUUUUUUUT?  Roles are important in PvP?  No such thing as a tank in PvP, and in general every player in PvP multi-task and take on different roles during the course of a fight.  Poor analogy on your part because al lit does is prove that you can remove Trinity in the face of smart AI yet still retain semblance of role structure.

    Of course there can be tanks in pvp.  It has to have collision detection and the ultimate goal is to make sure you ( as a tank) are between the enemies dps and your healer or ranged dps.

  • thinlizzythinlizzy perthPosts: 68Member

    AI does not kill the trinity

    Designers kill the trinity

     

    Warhammer online has tanks, DPS, support and heals.

    It is 80% PvP so your opponents not only are as smart as you but are actively learning form what you do.

    Warhammer has structure to its PvP and the trinity is what MAKES it work.

    (yes warhammer has many many faults, the trinity is not one of them and there are many other PvP heavy games that work with a trinity)

     

    Those of you who think this is just about tanks and have said...o they may still have CC and Heals and that will give the fight structure...

    Its NOT just about tanks, on the panel the FIRST example given was one of the devs loosing the main heal from their guild

    They want to kill ALL class distinction in a practical sense (opting for visual and cosmetic differences, like how you stand when you hold your TH sword)

     

    None of us know if they can make this work because EVERY game that has tried so far has failed badly.

    They may pull it off, lets hope they do.

     

  • HoiPoloiHoiPoloi Jackson, DEPosts: 86Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by munx4555

    All I can say is people are putting a hell of alot of faith in a AI they havn't seen a thing of, storybricks itself is a company that is completly unproven atm.

    Don't get me wrong, I hope the AI will be as awesome as they claim, but I try to be a realist atleast some of the time.

     

    And even if the AI is as advanced as they claim, have anyone here played pvp in mmos lately? even when fighting against actual human players these roles are still important, without pvp becomes a zerg aswell.

    And they will remain important until we see a mmorpg that has combat as advanced as mount and blade in which case we will really just see new roles such as: Infantry-Archer-Cavlary.

    In my opinions roles are a must in a Mmorpg, it dosnt have to be the original trinity, but if the need for certain roles just isnt there, you will end up with a zerg mentality.

     

     

    I really hope it works out, and dosnt become a boring zerg like gw2, but I don't see anyway around the inevitable chessboard with only pawns problem.

    WUUUUUUUUT?  Roles are important in PvP?  No such thing as a tank in PvP, and in general every player in PvP multi-task and take on different roles during the course of a fight.  Poor analogy on your part because al lit does is prove that you can remove Trinity in the face of smart AI yet still retain semblance of role structure.

    There sure are Tanks and Healers in MMO PvP.  Even in the supposedly Trinity-less GW2.

    The current meta in GW2 WvW is frontline Hammer Warriors (Tanking with CC), Elementalist water fields + Guardian blast finishers for AoE Healing, and tons and tons of Necromancer wells for AoE DPS.

    This WvW Trinity would also work in GW2 PvE if it wasn't artificially blocked by the developers.  Widespread CC immunity from Bosses means CC tanking can't develop.  And with no 10+ man plus dungeons, the critical mass for Water Field and Blast Finisher healing is not reached.

    Thrumdi of the TTC

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