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So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    But, then they might actually have to pay attention, know how to play their class, and not be terribad?

    DPS tends to draw in the "wheee pew pew big numbers and phat loots!" types.

    They could use a lesson or two in patience, IMO.

     Is it  a lack of patience to not want to waste the time you have to play not playing? I don't think so. If I have two hours to play during a sitting, why would I want to spend an hour of it looking for a proper group? I don't think it's really hard to understand what the problem with that would be, and it's certainly not an issue of patience.

    I don't think there's much wrong with trinity systems, I've always enjoyed it in an MMO along with turn-based combat, yet I don't think it's absence is a negative for a game in an of itself. There are certainly other systems that work. SWG was never really a trinity based game, and it was one of my favorite MMOs.

    The worst thing about trinity is the elitist attitude that comes along with it (displayed above in red).

    I don't think it's necessarily patience either. I think the problem is as follows:

    DPS builds are universal. Players who roll DPS for PVE can pretty much do and go where ever they want. Solo, large groups, small groups, raids, for the most part, it doesn't matter. It's easy to transition from Questing, to dungeons, to raids as long as you don't try to skip over the normal progression. You are effective as you are.

    But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way. Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    Definitely well said.

    While some gamers do have low patience (or attention spans), the thing about DPS rolls is that they apply equally to all aspects of a Trinity Based game. The same cannot be said for tanks or healers. Tanks, while necessary for dungeon / raid content, are typically useless in PvP, and have a harder time soloing. Healers, while not having it quite as bad (everyone loves a pocket heal), still generally have a harder time soloing (which is why a lot of games started giving them DPS specs).

    Furthermore, like you say, DPS classes typically have the most lenient gear reqs. Only in the most finely  tuned DPS race encounters does having sub-par gear make much of a difference, and those are few & far between.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by marsh9799

    The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

    This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.

    It's a ridiculous question because the combat mechanics are designed to fit the mobs mechanics. That's like asking what cars are good for driving on railroad tracks.

    To answer the question, of the MMOs without taunt mechanics, here is some similar raid-like group content:

     

    Puzzle Pirates - Island skellies

    EVE Online - Incursions

    Asheron's Call - Gaerlan Citadel

    Ultima Online - Champion spawns

    What's ridiculous was that bad analogy. Distopia answered the question without having to drive on railroad tracks.

    Sorry it pained you so. Hopefully those links helped you out.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.

    What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.

    That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.

    Wrong. And specially as a tank, since your queue time will be quasi non-existent.

    Wrong, as a tank, you ARE going to run heroics as DPS and slowly gather your tanking gear as you can so that you can continue to collect your dungeon tokens for raid gear while you do it.

    Well, you can't fool me on this since I'm still playing the game at the moment. Maybe you do it wrong, or just think it works that way, fact is that in game, it doesn't work that way at all, and doing normals to gear up works just fine.

    Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.

    You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.

    You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.

    Please, stop the nonsense. With the way loot drops work now in WoW, if you really played the game right now, you should know this is a non-issue. My take is that you don't play the game at all, or at least not as a fresh max level tank.

    I don't need to prove you wrong... you are simply wrong. Any person who really plays WOW right now as a max level tank knows it. If your only escape from having to admit you've been wrong is to post such nonsense, then so be it, I'm all for making other people feel better when I can. Here are 3 pints for you: imageimageimage

    EDIT and PS: I'm going to do you a favor and link this thread:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6606903045

    Notice the pre-heroic 5 man pieces? Notice the "crafted" part? You can buy your tank gear right off the AH as soon as you hit max level, or just craft it yourself. Just like a DPS.

    EDIT2: and before you post another nonsensical message... DPS can't enter heroic dungeons before they have the required item level, just like tanks (or healers). So the myth of the DPS who just hit max level and directly goes into heroics is only that... a myth.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.

    You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.

    Please, stop the nonsense. With the way loot drops work now in WoW, if you really played the game right now, you should know this is a non-issue. My take is that you don't play the game at all, or at least not as a fresh max level tank.

    I don't need to prove you wrong... you are simply wrong. Any person who really plays WOW right now as a max level tank knows it. If your only escape from having to admit you've been wrong is to post such nonsense, then so be it, I'm all for making other people feel better when I can. Here are 3 pints for you: imageimageimage

    EDIT and PS: I'm going to do you a favor and link this thread:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6606903045

    Notice the pre-heroic 5 man pieces? Notice the "crafted" part? You can buy your tank gear right off the AH as soon as you hit max level, or just craft it yourself. Just like a DPS.

    Aaaand it continues.

    Somehow trading one grind for another somehow magically makes the Tank's gear requirements less than DPS to get into the same content.

    I'm not even going to get into posting a link to Tank gear requirements in WoW that's a year old. (Did you really just do that?)

    OK, Have a good day sir, you win I'm done.

  • AbyeAbye GelsenkirchenPosts: 53Member

    A problem of the class trinity was that it required classes/builds that are by itself just unfun to play. Playing a healer or tank outside of group content felt like a waste of time. Rift tried to sidestep the problem with it respec-fest when otherwise it stuck to the EQ/WoW formula. 

     

    Still the most fun was bulldozing a mission in City of Heroes/Villains when any proper build would contribute to the group and it would often just work, often with no healer or classic tank.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon

    OK, Have a good day sir, you win I'm done.

    I "won" like 3 posts ago, when you started to post stuff you imagine is true instead of experience of someone who really plays the game right now. I tried to help you though:

    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    And before you post another nonsensical message... DPS can't enter heroic dungeons before they have the required item level, just like tanks (or healers). So the myth of the DPS who just hit max level and directly goes into heroics is only that... a myth.

    What about this? You say DPS can simply enter heroics, without showing their IDs... when they actually have exactly the same gear requirements as a tank. All characters need item level 435 to get into heroics!

    So what? Hello? Yes, I indeed "won", because you posted nonsense, stuff someone playing WoW would facepalm at.

     

    Now is a tank's job "harder" in a trinity system than a DPS? Yes, I definitely think so. But the difficulty definitely doesn't come from the gear... actually, tanks have it easier, since even in a 5 man group, you usually have 3 dps and only 1 tank, so he isn't fighting two other people for loot drops. The difficulty comes from being the only wall between the mobs and the squishies, meaning that if you screw up, everybody dies.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • marsh9799marsh9799 jackson, MSPosts: 100Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by marsh9799

    The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

    This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.

     

    Nope, I'm not confused at all. 

     

    I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous.  It was boring to no end.

     

    I made no statement regarding a combat system.  You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity.  Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system.  That's utterly false.  DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat.  Your premise is flawed.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Presumably...someone trying to market something other?

    How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Presumably...someone trying to market something other?

    How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?

    Someone had to cater to those people who sucked so bad that they couldn't get into raids or when they did the groups fell apart and reformed when they were gone. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by marsh9799
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by marsh9799

    The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

    This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.

     

    Nope, I'm not confused at all. 

     

    I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous.  It was boring to no end.

     

    I made no statement regarding a combat system.  You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity.  Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system.  That's utterly false.  DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat.  Your premise is flawed.

    Eh... Tank can exist two ways: Either it uses a taunt system, or it exploits an underdeveloped AI. Do you remember Baldur's Gate? -In that game, there was no taunt system and the monsters would attack the first thing they saw. Thing is, they never switched targets so you always put your tank forward to "get aggro" and then proceed to kill the mobs with your other characters.

    Bioware didn't change the AI until Throne of Bhaal. It made the game extremely easy - much like other trinity games.

    The class design and structure in GW1 was well ahead of its time, but I get if if you come from a background of only knowing the trinity and nothing else, then it might look a bit confusing and chaotic at times. For me, we never had a "tank" when we played PnP RPGs, and I never liked the mechanic in computer RPGs (including MMOs), so GW1 felt like an oasis of good combat in the middle of a vast desert.

    The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • NephelaiNephelai SydneyPosts: 184Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Presumably...someone trying to market something other?

    How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?

    Someone had to cater to those people who sucked so bad that they couldn't get into raids or when they did the groups fell apart and reformed when they were gone. 

    Which unfortunately is a massive population and hence end up steering the direction of games due to their financial weighting. Games are really only fun in the early adopter stage. Once they become "cool" and all the Joe and Judy averages turn up things go to shit.

     

     

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.  Are you serious or just joking.. Smart AI isn't such a smart excuse..  First, lets talk about who or what has a smart AI..  Do you think a wolf, bear or tiger have a CLUE what or who the healer is?  As a Ranger if I have my bear pet mauling another bear, that bear is CLUELESS to who I am or what I'm doing..  That bear will ONLY concentrate on the object in it's face..  Now, lets assume you are a smart human under the same circumstances.. You might know I'm the bear's master, but NO way you're getting close to me to do anything about it.. My bear is maul you and hamstring every step.. You'll be dead before you get close to me..  The only time you can justify a smart AI is when you have a group of intelligent mobs that can add better then 2+2.. 

     

    The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

    It has everything to do with solo friendly class, to deny that is just being dishonest.. When you remove the role designed game you end up with a homogenized dps hybrid set up..  Thing is.. you can keep the trinity and still have it solo friendly, just that the devs didn't know how to add 2+2..  Both styles can co-exist if you look outside the box.. 

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.  Are you serious or just joking.. Smart AI isn't such a smart excuse..  First, lets talk about who or what has a smart AI..  Do you think a wolf, bear or tiger have a CLUE what or who the healer is?  As a Ranger if I have my bear pet mauling another bear, that bear is CLUELESS to who I am or what I'm doing..  That bear will ONLY concentrate on the object in it's face..  Now, lets assume you are a smart human under the same circumstances.. You might know I'm the bear's master, but NO way you're getting close to me to do anything about it.. My bear is maul you and hamstring every step.. You'll be dead before you get close to me..  The only time you can justify a smart AI is when you have a group of intelligent mobs that can add better then 2+2.. 

     

    The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

    It has everything to do with solo friendly class, to deny that is just being dishonest.. When you remove the role designed game you end up with a homogenized dps hybrid set up..  Thing is.. you can keep the trinity and still have it solo friendly, just that the devs didn't know how to add 2+2..  Both styles can co-exist if you look outside the box.. 

    You're creating a strawman argument: People are not talking about dropping roles, they're talking about dropping the holy trinity.

    And you are wrong. Games like DDO and GW1 have strong roles, but are still solo friendly due to available AI controlled henchmen/mercenaries.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by KBishop
    If monsters had true human AI, it wouldn't be fun, you know why? Because the AI would go directly for healers first, spam their strongest aoe and CC, and completely forego tanks. It wouldn't just be chaotic, it'd be unplayable.

    You've just described PvP. Is PvP "unplayable"?

    no because PvP doesn't consist of raid bosses that can 1 shot a healer :p

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.  Are you serious or just joking.. Smart AI isn't such a smart excuse..  First, lets talk about who or what has a smart AI..  Do you think a wolf, bear or tiger have a CLUE what or who the healer is?  As a Ranger if I have my bear pet mauling another bear, that bear is CLUELESS to who I am or what I'm doing..  That bear will ONLY concentrate on the object in it's face..  Now, lets assume you are a smart human under the same circumstances.. You might know I'm the bear's master, but NO way you're getting close to me to do anything about it.. My bear is maul you and hamstring every step.. You'll be dead before you get close to me..  The only time you can justify a smart AI is when you have a group of intelligent mobs that can add better then 2+2.. 

     

    The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

    It has everything to do with solo friendly class, to deny that is just being dishonest.. When you remove the role designed game you end up with a homogenized dps hybrid set up..  Thing is.. you can keep the trinity and still have it solo friendly, just that the devs didn't know how to add 2+2..  Both styles can co-exist if you look outside the box.. 

    I agree that there is room in the genre for Trinity and non trinity games.

    I would also agree that to date no one has come up with a better PvE group combat dynamic than the Trinity in MMORPGs.

    That doesn't mean it isn't  past time the industry tried to come up with better solutions or shouldn't try. Part of any solution is making MOBs that can create and respond to more complex interactions than the simple Trinity mechanic.

    Whether EQN will be the first to manage it or just another step or misstep on the way to it is yet to be seen.

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by KBishop

    If monsters had true human AI, it wouldn't be fun, you know why? Because the AI would go directly for healers first, spam their strongest aoe and CC, and completely forego tanks. It wouldn't just be chaotic, it'd be unplayable.

    Do you know in which game that wouldn't be a problem at all? In one that doesn't have healers or tanks ...

    It would still be a problem but it would be less so. Many games where the computer has a 'trump' card and consistantly uses it are considered to be rigged, because the computer has an IWIN button that you can't circumvent.

    Think of it this way. Lets say you have some raid boss with 3 attacks that each do 50% of your hp. In scripted AI, the boss would probably do them once ever 30seconds - minute so that you have time to at least recover. In a REAL AI, any smart person(and smart AI) would simply spam those abilities in rapid succession so that you'd be dead. Of course you could put other restrictions on the boss such as "They can't use these abilities but once every 30 seconds" but there are still other things they could and probably would do, such as running away when battle is getting to heated, targeting the most threatening person (healers first, then top dps), or use CC in tandem with other abilities, or hell getting any and every creature within the zone to simply sit next to it so that they turtle.

    Then you place restriction after restriction such as "The boss cannot run, period" or "The boss will target the person with an arbitrary number" (threat), or "The boss cannot rally other enemies to help defend it" and so on, until you have *drum roll* scripted AI.

  • Slappy1Slappy1 columbus, OHPosts: 458Member

    People may not like it,but I honestly could care less.

    I point the finger straight at GW2 and it's fans.See it seems people want to think that newer mmo's need to be super solo friendly and screw everyone else,it's me me me.I don't care what other people do in the raid.it's about me and only me.

    Thus mmorpg's now days are a watered down version of what they once was.People rush to lvl cap and then bitch about nothing to do.An mmorpg years ago wasn't about cap,it was the whole of the game experience.

    Having a trinity worked and promoted social interaction well before one entered the battlefield.Not some dumbed down version that's like,hey just run and join a group and heal yourself while you fight,or dps or tank.Please,it's a disgrace to the genre.

    Sometimes change can be good,but doing away with trinity is not the answer,it's stupid!

    Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

    Arya Stark

  • monstermmomonstermmo Glendale, CAPosts: 1,062Member
    I decided the "holy trinity" was a bad thing. You're welcome.

    Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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  • crashdxcrashdx Houston, TXPosts: 53Member
    Meh, I've come close to despising the thing. In most games it's just a prettier version of whack-a-mole. The DPS hits his buttons at the same time, the healer does so with a little more thought, and the tank just hopes he can stay alive. Everyone is so into their role that some guy went through dungeons in WoW with barely anyone noticing that he wasn't doing anything. For as much grief GW2 gets(from people who do not play), I guarantee you that is not happening. There is no half-asleep mode in it's 5 man encounters.
  • DeserttFoxxDeserttFoxx North York, ONPosts: 2,360Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.

     

    The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

    Please name one game that has improved the AI, they have been removing the trinity since guild wars 2. I have yet to see this new and improved AI that warrents it.

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  • marsh9799marsh9799 jackson, MSPosts: 100Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by marsh9799
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by marsh9799

    The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

    This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.

     

    Nope, I'm not confused at all. 

     

    I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous.  It was boring to no end.

     

    I made no statement regarding a combat system.  You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity.  Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system.  That's utterly false.  DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat.  Your premise is flawed.

    Eh... Tank can exist two ways: Either it uses a taunt system, or it exploits an underdeveloped AI. Do you remember Baldur's Gate? -In that game, there was no taunt system and the monsters would attack the first thing they saw. Thing is, they never switched targets so you always put your tank forward to "get aggro" and then proceed to kill the mobs with your other characters.

    Bioware didn't change the AI until Throne of Bhaal. It made the game extremely easy - much like other trinity games.

    The class design and structure in GW1 was well ahead of its time, but I get if if you come from a background of only knowing the trinity and nothing else, then it might look a bit confusing and chaotic at times. For me, we never had a "tank" when we played PnP RPGs, and I never liked the mechanic in computer RPGs (including MMOs), so GW1 felt like an oasis of good combat in the middle of a vast desert.

    The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!

    There's plenty of ways tanking can work other than that.  Current DnD uses forced movement, collision / positioning, and opportunity attacks.    If you didn't run with a tank and a healer in PnP games, you could make do... provided you stick to certain types of adventures, don't get unlucky rolls, and/or have a GM who rains down magical healing potions like nobody's business.

     

    Non-trinity combat is identical to the trinity combat you describe.  It's formulaic and trivial.  You do the exact same thing over and over again depending on the AI.

     

    And you clearly haven't done hard raiding.  Nobody needs to talk to one another?  LOL!

  • NephelaiNephelai SydneyPosts: 184Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!

    What on earth is this none sense - I cant even think of a team sport where no one has a role to play. Sure they can play out of their role at times but essentially they have roles and in fact have usually been selected based on their specialty.

     

    You are a prime example of what's silly about this argument - its obvious you haven't done anything remotely hard because if you had, say heroic Ragnaros in Firelands, you would know how difficult and challenging every persons role can be. Sure trinity is boring at toddler level but the challenge is for you to get better and rise to the challenge.

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by Nephelai
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!

    What on earth is this none sense - I cant even think of a team sport where no one has a role to play. Sure they can play out of their role at times but essentially they have roles and in fact have usually been selected based on their specialty.

     

    You are a prime example of what's silly about this argument - its obvious you haven't done anything remotely hard because if you had, say heroic Ragnaros in Firelands, you would know how difficult and challenging every persons role can be. Sure trinity is boring at toddler level but the challenge is for you to get better and rise to the challenge.

    that's kind of missing the point.

    You can add a bunch of interesting mechanics to the encounter to shake things up, but in the end the combat is still formulaic. Tanks tank, healers heal and damage dealers deal damage. Thats it. At best, they will have other things to do that aren't their designed role like moving locations to prevent wipes or something, but even taking out adds or shooting down orbs is STILL dpsing. Thats the problem with the trinity, is that it locks people to a specific role, and gives them only so much wiggle room before you are just having them do the same thing over different skins

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