@Roguewiz (offtopic): Your avatar quote makes me wish there were a Dragonlance MMO.
On Topic: I think 8 is enough. The last MMO I played was WoW, and the skill bloat is just ridiculous. To play the game at peak skill levels you have to have between 15-35 keybinds, depending on class. Damage skills, interrupts, CC, CC clear, heals, long term buffs, short term buffs, conditionals.... And that's fun to a certain extent, but it's a lot to keep in your head. It wouldn't work with class switching.
EQN is closer to the Original EQ than the F2P EQ we have today. In it's origin, playing an EQ warrior, you had like 4 buttons to push. Attack, kick, bash, taunt. Over time they added more to do with disciplines and AAs, but it was very, very simple. A caster in the game had a few more buttons to click, but they can still only memorize 8 spells at once. You set up your spell kit for whatever dungeon/group you were participating with.
I like the return to that type of decision making. Pick what class and weapon you're going to use depending on the dungeon/group you're joining. Having 8 skills seems robust enough to offer a decent amount of breakdown between damage and utility, and simple enough not to overload players who switch classes often.
I believe they gave an example of trying to tackle something and failing and then rezing (whatever the death mechanic is) changing out your build and giving it another shot.
I sounds like they are going for situational builds rather then one build for everything.
I signed up to this forum to have some good discussions on EQN, but if this thread is anything to judge by, it is one of the worst places to do that.
There is so much misinformation going on here.
We do not know much as it is yet.
So many are actually saying things that are directly opposite of what we have heard (or read or watched)
Then there is the group that doesn't even seem interested in the game at all, but just want to sit and discuss (fight) about how bad OTHER games have been.
The people that seems to hate change and want EQN to be like their dream game, do not seem to be able to come up with anything but the same old mechanics. Nothing new from you guys at all.
There is a loud group of people that will complain just to complain. They are usually very loud and out there.
They turn a lot of the other (more sensible) people away, thereby creating a oneway discussion.
Is it so you can sit and say "Yay I won the discussion? Because a discussion that have ended because no one wants to listen to you is not won. By far.
They are the same people that usually get the attention of devs, because they are so loud.
A lot of stupid changes have been made in game development, because players insist that they want things their way.
Changes that go away from the original goal of development and therefore doesnt mesh at all with the final product.
Learn how to be a bit more relaxed and stop using the totally negative way of discussing things please, it is not constructive in any way.
If you think something "SUX" or its "GUNNA FAIL!!!", you have a few more ways of saying it than just bashing away.
If you don't, then fine. We heard you the first time, no need to jump up and down demanding attention.
I don't have a problem with eight abilities, but the fact that four are determined by you weapon rather than get to choose your own seems like it will be way too limiting.
Everything about this game cries super E Z mode. Without exposing much, you told us everything we need to know SOE. Little over a year to launch, quick burnout, FTP within 1yr. SOOOO disappointed with concepts and what direction they are taking this game. Of course it is your game to ruin.
If the action bar wasn't limited your character would become ridiculous since there are no classes and you can use multiple classes skills at the same time.
Originally posted by bentrim Everything about this game cries super E Z mode. Without exposing much, you told us everything we need to know SOE. Little over a year to launch, quick burnout, FTP within 1yr. SOOOO disappointed with concepts and what direction they are taking this game. Of course it is your game to ruin.
How do you know?
I am not saying it wont be, but how do YOU know?
Use arguments in a discussion, not just postulates.
Returning to original EQ type of set up is a wonderful idea.
You don't have only 8 skills. You actually can have hundreds according to the developers (doing the math that each class has 4 skills and there are 40 or so classes as they mentioned).
But, you can only have 8 active at one time. Wonderful!
I have gotten incredibly annoyed with games these days where 90% of the screen is covered by skill buttons and then I get to see a whole wopping 100x100 pixil box of the actual game because my UI has ate the screen.
As well, the developers showed the ease of actually swapping around your skills, which means we can have ourselves actually have several different builds we enjoy for solo, group, and larger actions. And even then, multiples of those if we wish.
indeed, no need to have 52 skills on screen and mash buttons in X order for xp, Y order for PvP and Z order for raids... that nonsense needs to die, EQN and even ESO have the right idea here; but i hold my judgement until i put my hands on it.
not set up quite like that, but i want many different AoE's, DoT's, summons, ports, buffs, useless spells, (shooting a ball of light or turning into a tree) i changed my spell bar so damn much in EQ1. i can even still feel the dread when i HAD to stare at my spellbook not knowing if something was coming towards me to slay my face
Sad news, not propably a game for me. I need at least 12+ skills in order to feel like my character actually can do stuff. A bunch of various attacks, lets just say 4 since EQnext has that. Maybe 2 special attacks on top of that though too.
Misc skills (mines? other triggered spells? movement boosts/escapes? less usefull fun stuff/class identity spells like summons, teleports, stealths, sprints etc) that's some 6 extra spells at least per char. I have 12 now, and I could think a bunch more of "must have spells" so yeah, I dont like this at all...
8 abilities at a time is way too little, it will lead to incredibly simple builds. Sure, some people spam only 3 skills in a MMO, I dont though, this game looked promising but this is way too core mechanic that is lacking, I didnt like it in GW2 either and it had more abilities at once, but GW2 has very poor class identity which I dont like at all.
Edit; oh and ofcourse, as always: "Fucking consoles pissing on my games and dumbing them down"
4 per weapon, with at least 2 weapon setups allows you access to 8 skills (assuming you can switch weapons in combat which I can't see being blocked), 4 others of your choice available depending on classes unlocked. Thats a minimum of 12 abilities (more than most MMOs make players use on a regular / semi regular basis - of course there are abilities in most MMOs that never get used, or get used once in a blue moon...). That's 12 readily available with a great depth of choice for 4 of those 12.
Then you get the items which we know will affect class abilities (and I can't see why they also wouldn't affect weapon abilities too) allowing greater customisation.
I personally don't think we have anything to worry about, at least not this early on in the game's development.
As has been said EQ had 8-12 abilities or less for almost all classes (8 spells + abilities), until AAs and even then most had less than 15 for years after, with spellbars only getting more slots in OoW (+1 spell slot) and beyond (currently at 12 spell gem slots).
I would much rather have 12 abilities at the tips of my fingers than 36 with 30 being situational or useless.
8 skills is plenty as long as the skills are interesting enough and they can interact with other skills (e.g. combos) as they hinted at SOE Live. There is no reason to have 4 rows of actions like in RIFT when majority do not even get used.
I’ve always considered myself a casual player, but I enjoyed being a part of a game-world where there was real challenge that forced players to work together to come up with viable strategies and tactics.
Hopefully the EQNext developers realize that they need to build a game for their core audience. This audience forms the heart of the community. Without this audience, the game will probably wither and die after a year.
It may be too early to judge, but from the little I’ve seen so far, I fear EQNext may try to be too streamlined and accessible, too superficial, to appeal to this core. Lets hope the developers remember that this game should be designed for an adult audience and for young adults who are nerdy enough to study up on game mechanics.
Please don’t simplify the game to appeal to an audience that only wants or appreciates visceral combat. Computer roleplaying games should be made by nerds, for nerds!
So much acrimony in this thread. It seems like so few are willing to look at things from multiple points of view. Those that are confident in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are not disappointed. Those who are disappointed in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are pleasantly surprised. I was always one for gray areas of aspiration built around expressed concerns.
I will admit that I am slightly worried by the limitation of eight skills. However, eight useful action oriented skills, admittedly, are all that most games utilize with regard to combat. Naturally, much of my disappointment hails from having less room for uncommonly used, highly situational skills that often distinguishes players with excellent timing and good execution. With fewer skills combat, battle becomes significantly more about the button mashing and no situational brilliance in which to flourish.
An example of this can potentially be found within the earlier years of games - likely within the commonly evoked, World of Warcraft. Some of you may recall Vurtne (his videos, notably http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bgggKMvQU, are worth a watch for nostalgia if anything), a Mage who was brilliant at abusing situational skills that were available during vanilla (reflect on Death Coils, Ice Blocked falls or incoming kill skills, cheap AoEs to break stealth, Flame Ward reflects, cheap speedcast slows, well thrown grenades to disrupt heals / important skills, Will of the Forsakening out of fears, etc. etc.) to handle multitudes of people simultaneously. I think that one of the primary reasons people are apprehensive about having so few skills available are not due to the playability of base content, but for distinction in combat (notably against other players who likely chose similar skillsets due to min/maxing). Although 8 skills will give you a competent PvE/PvP dps rotation that will operate perfectly, it will not grant the situational brilliance and awareness that many "greats" use to distinguish their selves from others. I managed a fortunate dueling record on my Tera Sorcerer - but, with only 8 skills I think most of my victories would have fallen to RNG rather than skill, as most of my them were achieved with clever timing on situational abilities and awareness. I could say the same for a number of my characters throughout various MMOs in history.
That being said, my secondary disappointment, and I feel that other old-school gamers may suffer from this as well, stems from a similar motivation but with regards to non-combat oriented skills. Part of the joy of original EverQuest were a number of spells sheerly for entertainment purposes and class uniqueness. I suppose with the rampant expectancy to change classes consistently it will not even be a viable factor; a disappointment in its self-absence. In original EverQuest certain classes had abilities that were useful for situational utility and amusement. I remember rapidly placing myself under a Dark Elf Illusion on my High Elf Enchanter because a group of kill-on-sight guards roamed by me from Neriak. The quick utility made me smile. There were many illusory spells, players could turn themselves into almost any mobile creature in the game, or even an inanimate object if wanted. It allowed players to infiltrate a number of dangerous areas. After teleporting players on my Druid, I used to turn them in wolves them for playful whimsy. Everyone loved being a wolf for a while, even if it made guards want to chop them into steaks. Magicians could summon tons of useful little items from food, water, to even light sources, while Necromancers could cast a spell that let them talk through their pet (what fun!). These little things not only added to individuality, but were nifty little utility / entertainment skills to add immersion to the world (read: "lookie what I can do!"). I escorted an evil Troll friend of mine through Qeynos via Invisibility spells once. I sort of see the limitation of four class oriented skills / spells as a means by which non-combat entertainment or immersion oriented skills will be eliminated, and that makes me sad just because I loved having them convenient for utility or personal amusement outside of combat.
In closing, I do wish to state that the 8 skill slots will function for the gameplay, because the gameplay is being designed around it - people do not need to worry about limited slots leaving them in deficiency against mobs or players. However, there is a sensible fear that the ability to readily outshine others will be significantly hindered since mobility is fairly easy to replicate and losing situational skills will reduce the ability to display excellence of skill use (knowing to hit X instead of Y at the right second), rather than pre-determined skill choice (having X on your bar beforehand instead of Y). Essentially, stifled mechanics tend to result in faulty divergence between competent players, grand players, and terrible players, because a face-roll becomes an oddly valid strategy. Finally, there may be a lack of "soul" to classes, so to speak with their individual entertainment skills removed. Bear in mind that much of this conjecture based on SOE's explanations of the combat system and they very well may find a means of balancing this delicate design to please everyone. The odds of it are slim, but at this point... no one can say for certain.
I hope things turn out better than the conclusions being drawn. I strongly suggest SOE part their tight lips and grand some insightful wisdom to us all.
Except a lot of those situational skills are now baked into the 8 skills you pick, by giving you temp buffs and effects. In Guild Wars 2 it's common also that your skills change as you use them, one skill rolling into another and granting mobility and some kind of useful buff. So then it's more about timing and saving the skill so it's not on cooldown. That's what I've found at least, and it works.
However I'll agree that it's sad they don't make lore spells anymore, or cantrips, or class specific spells. Or even race specific spells like how Undead Priests had their own unholy spells in WoW. I've always like playing a Wizard in DnD3.5 mostly for the diversity and enormous spell book, and some if not most of my useful spells have always been the social cantrips that let you hear underneath doors or translate any text.....Set alarms around the camp ect ect
I do appreciate that you see the practical sorrow in it, as a great number of people in this thread, particularly those who are interested in logging in just to smash things and log out, lack interest in the long-term amusement and diversity. "That stuff is unnecessary to kill with and therefore should be removed." Much like how in real life my ability to build a vehicle or forage water is not as important as my ability to stab a bitch in the eye with a chisel. "But it is just a game, that non-combat stuff is stupid," right? *sigh* Oh, people.
As I said, 8 skills are perfectly functional for gameplay and will not inhibit anyone - as is multi-classing. It will absolutely not break the game. But it will prevent players like me, who enjoy becoming skillfully competent enough that their name gains renown for prowess, from achieving that. After all, there will be nothing to define oneself with. Due to the min/max nature of gaming these days, giving everyone access to everything is mortifying because competitive players habitually gravitate toward playing the flavor of the month build. It is logical - psychology dictates that humans pick the most efficient and least resistant path almost always (Zipf 1949). You, as a certainly unique individual, may resist doing so, but most will not. I would anticipate it being fairly common for a player's eight button choices to match up with the person's running toward them, and there being little more to discriminate oneself with other than above average movement and perhaps intelligent use of the environment. That does not discriminate a player as excellent, just slightly more aware. People will not even take note of it.
I would rather have twenty button choices with which to combat a mirror - there is a significantly higher chance of me winning due to better reaction times, knowledge of button placement, reduced RNG, deeper understanding of situational spell tactic use, nifty tricks with skills that people of which may be ignorant, etc. Of course, the next step would be for me to argue for being locked into a class, but that would be off-topic and I hate to sway away from the topic at hand.
I do appreciate that you see the practical sorrow in it, as a great number of people in this thread, particularly those who are interested in logging in just to smash things and log out, lack interest in the long-term amusement and diversity. "That stuff is unnecessary to kill with and therefore should be removed." Much like how in real life my ability to build a vehicle or forage water is not as important as my ability to stab a bitch in the eye with a chisel. "But it is just a game, that non-combat stuff is stupid," right? *sigh* Oh, people.
As I said, 8 skills are perfectly functional for gameplay and will not inhibit anyone - as is multi-classing. It will absolutely not break the game. But it will prevent players like me, who enjoy becoming skillfully competent enough that their name gains renown for prowess, from achieving that. After all, there will be nothing to define oneself with. Due to the min/max nature of gaming these days, giving everyone access to everything is mortifying because competitive players habitually gravitate toward playing the flavor of the month build. It is logical - psychology dictates that humans pick the most efficient and least resistant path almost always (Zipf 1949). You, as a certainly unique individual, may resist doing so, but most will not. I would anticipate it being fairly common for a player's eight button choices to match up with the person's running toward them, and there being little more to discriminate oneself with other than above average movement and perhaps intelligent use of the environment. That does not discriminate a player as excellent, just slightly more aware. People will not even take note of it.
I would rather have twenty button choices with which to combat a mirror - there is a significantly higher chance of me winning due to better reaction times, knowledge of button placement, reduced RNG, deeper understanding of situational spell tactic use, nifty tricks with skills that people of which may be ignorant, etc. Of course, the next step would be for me to argue for being locked into a class, but that would be off-topic and I hate to sway away from the topic at hand.
(strange, being flagged for spam? not amused)
I think you're shooting down this system before you've even played it. What makes you think that having 20 button choices would be any different to having 5? or 8? or 50? People will min-max regardless of button allocation and the same scenario you describe where you say it would be "fairly common for a player's eight button choices to match up with the person's running toward them" will also happen even if there were 20 buttons or 30 buttons. It really doesn't matter.
Yes, the bad thing about the skill system is that there are mandatory button allocations and these will force people to pick classes that have the best button allocation for a certain scenario. But you can't really sit there and say adding more buttons would fix that problem.
I do appreciate that you see the practical sorrow in it, as a great number of people in this thread, particularly those who are interested in logging in just to smash things and log out, lack interest in the long-term amusement and diversity. "That stuff is unnecessary to kill with and therefore should be removed." Much like how in real life my ability to build a vehicle or forage water is not as important as my ability to stab a bitch in the eye with a chisel. "But it is just a game, that non-combat stuff is stupid," right? *sigh* Oh, people.
As I said, 8 skills are perfectly functional for gameplay and will not inhibit anyone - as is multi-classing. It will absolutely not break the game. But it will prevent players like me, who enjoy becoming skillfully competent enough that their name gains renown for prowess, from achieving that. After all, there will be nothing to define oneself with. Due to the min/max nature of gaming these days, giving everyone access to everything is mortifying because competitive players habitually gravitate toward playing the flavor of the month build. It is logical - psychology dictates that humans pick the most efficient and least resistant path almost always (Zipf 1949). You, as a certainly unique individual, may resist doing so, but most will not. I would anticipate it being fairly common for a player's eight button choices to match up with the person's running toward them, and there being little more to discriminate oneself with other than above average movement and perhaps intelligent use of the environment. That does not discriminate a player as excellent, just slightly more aware. People will not even take note of it.
I would rather have twenty button choices with which to combat a mirror - there is a significantly higher chance of me winning due to better reaction times, knowledge of button placement, reduced RNG, deeper understanding of situational spell tactic use, nifty tricks with skills that people of which may be ignorant, etc. Of course, the next step would be for me to argue for being locked into a class, but that would be off-topic and I hate to sway away from the topic at hand.
(strange, being flagged for spam? not amused)
I think you're shooting down this system before you've even played it. What makes you think that having 20 button choices would be any different to having 5? or 8? or 50? People will min-max regardless of button allocation and the same scenario you describe where you say it would be "fairly common for a player's eight button choices to match up with the person's running toward them" will also happen even if there were 20 buttons or 30 buttons. It really doesn't matter.
Yes, the bad thing about the skill system is that there are mandatory button allocations and these will force people to pick classes that have the best button allocation for a certain scenario. But you can't really sit there and say adding more buttons would fix that problem.
I could easily present the counterargument that those approaching this system positively are making an erroneously optimistic judgment about the system before they, too, have ever played it. We only have what information they have given us and a humble request not to compare it to Guild Wars 2 (acknowledgement of informational similarity). I place a lot of hope in this new system, but there are logistical concerns based on Guild Wars 2's new system, which closely resembles all of the information SOE has released thus far. Voicing them are not a sin, nor is pretending that they do not exist, but pretending things are grand lacks the potential to be beneficial. I would strongly prefer that SOE come out and acknowledge the concerns, rather than go "well, we can do whatever we want everyone clearly loves whatever ideas we shit out." After all, I am the consumer. You may be, too.
But since you asked why I, personally, think it would be better to have more skills - even though I offer an example of this in my original post, which I request kindly that you read - I will gladly try to give you an additional reason. The original post is quoted just above, feel free to tinker with it at your leisure. I have a history of prowess within MMORPGs, notably in regards PvP. This changed for the first time when I played Guild Wars 2 and realized that I was just as effective not bothering to watch my opponent's attacks and focus on my own cooldowns and movements. Frankly, I was still grand, probably due to years of quick reacting - I topped the charts in every BG that I entered and was more than apt to handle 1v3s (I played an Engineer). When I handled a 1v3 on WoW, DAoC, or Tera, I always felt rather accomplished and proud of myself. In GW2 I did not, I felt like I mashed buttons better than they did and got lucky with motion. I fear that will spill over in EQN, and leave me unhappy - "selfish," I'm sure. But if I did not want something I enjoyed, I would not have looked so forward to EQN for the past four years, I would have sat on GW2 and said "it'll never be as good as this." I never had any clever tricks to pull, no brilliant spell reflections, no trinkets or gadgets that lined up perfectly. Frankly, I gave not a single fuck what skills my enemy was using because they largely all looked the same and did not really matter - my face-roll and move effectively strategy reigned supreme. I dueled, I battlegrounded, I even did ranked things from time to time. It was not slow paced and thought provoking or strategic, it was a rush of quick shooting and rolling around. May the best button masher and running win. I disliked that, a lot.
If you think that is great gameplay, I wholly support your right to an opinion. However, I respectfully disagree and think a small skill-set is overly limiting by comparison. I linked a favorite old video from earlier WoW, which demonstrates the power in having a large arsenal with which to handle everything uniquely at your fingertips (though, I feel the need to put forth the argument that as WoW progressed and more buttons were added, they reduced it to many fewer in an actual rotation, resulting in the skill-less button mashing seen today). With eight buttons, that video would not have been nearly as amusing and he would have more than likely perished numerous times, as would I were I in his shoes. Ultimately it boils down to having fewer ways to be good and fewer ways to make mistakes, placing great players and horrendous players on a relatively small disparity of skill. That, specifically, is what bothers me.
This is not about the ability to strike the one key when "1" pops up on screen. I have trained cats to do that. This is about hitting the "1" button when it would be intelligent to in the fight. Giving idiot Joe a multiple choice test where he has 8 choices versus giving him one with 20 enables him a significantly higher chance of hitting the right button because his finger is too fat for his keyboard than because he is intelligent and chose it because the guy in front was casting Ice Blast and he wanted to Spell Reflect it.
Onwards. Players will always min/max, I am not presenting an argument that that is a bad thing. After all, I certainly do it, but within the confines and restrictions that I am given. The problem that I have with it is more related to multi-classing than it is to the skill-set, hence why I drop off my argument there and use it primarily as an example. Naturally, if everyone can switch to the skillset that is optimal at the time, people will. EQN allows that, and it makes me not look forward to the 80,000 teleporting Ranger war that is to come. The reason I use this example is to relate to my above paragraph, in which more skills allow discrepancy between the better teleporting Ranger due to a higher level of being error-prone and a higher level of reactionary eloquence.
Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
LAS has nothing to do with skill sir.
It does have to do with decision making skill sir. Hence I like these kind of skill system, the more limited it is, the more challenging of the type of skill combo you'd like to perform.
After playing GW2 no its just not enough. Its spammy it by default dislikes stealth tactics and ranged tactics in favor of zergs and AOE spams. Everyone will end up being some DPS warrior mage with some kind of dps spam. Even if by some act of god they (unlike GW2) make their healing and debuff skills actually useful your reactive3 abilities will still be overwhelmed by the circular AOE melee zerg barreling at you. Also it makes 3 demensional boards useless since for the most part people end up being a roaming mob.
Have no mistake as well they will most likely section off skills into homogenized groups so you will have far fewer choices than you think. They probably are doing it because its easy for little kids to learn, makes their job easier, but most people interested in pvp or good combat, hate it.
Our experiences in GW2 couldn't be further from different. I would COMPLETELY agree that any fight with more than 3 people on each side *can* get into a spam-fest depending upon the class, more often than not that wasn't the case at all.
You are right, you can do mediocre and get wins just mashing buttons and having a decent class to fall back on. Guardian or Bunker Engineers prove this quite well, to contrast this, though, when you meet someone that is very skilled and knows their opponents you know it. It's shockingly painful and, imo, quite gratifying knowing that this level of depth exists.
I do agree that I'm being optimistic when I hope that they make the classes and abilities good enough to make it a meaningful and challenging decision. I'm confident that with their experience they can do this. Will there be cookie-cutter builds? Of course! As long as those aren't the only viable builds than I really don't care. IMO there are FAR more opportunities with a limited 8-power system than there are with no limits. With no limits you really are stuck with just your talents/gear and cookie-cutter has so much more meaning because EVERY "Thief" is the same, every "Cleric" is the same, every "Warrior" is the same, but if I have 50-60 abilities to choose from and they are all viable and competitive then the fun really begins!
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
So in EQNext the action bar system will be using a limited design to force builds between combat.
4,,, yes I said 4,,, will be weapon skills
And 4,,, yes again I said 4,,,, will be class utilities.
So that's a total of 8 skills at a time.
So in other words, it's like EQ1. I clearly remember haivng only 8 slots to work with back then. It forced me to make choices and decide which skills and spells were the most valuable for whatever I was doing at the time.
What's the problem again?
They won't listen. Their tiny little WoW brains just can't comprehend why actually having to plan ahead is harder than just spamming a rotation.
Well, to be fair, unless they change something, EQ1 you had 8 spell gems, then you had you numbered skill pad for emotes, kicks, attack, taunt and such, and in EQN you had 4 slots for class skills as a caster, and then 4 slots for a weapon....So potentially, you have from their demo probably the energy or whatever they use to cast damage, 2 damage spells, 1 defense and 1 misc/situational spell....Even if you could support it, say 3 damage spells, if you would be allowed, the system is still a little vague on how much you can customize.
So if you were a dps caster you have probably 2 spells for damage, and then 4 weapon skills....The million dollar question is, say as a wizard, if you wield a staff, how many of these weapon skills will actually be melee attacks/blocks, and will their be any offensive or defensive spells tied to your melee weapon that you can channel as a caster. If they don't have a attack that is like a 'free' ability that can be used while you wait for mana or stamina or whatever will be the commodity they use, and you actually have to melee to be effective, that is crap imo. I do not play a offensive dps caster to be melee.
So I see if you are pessimistic you have 2 offensive abilities without having to melee, and if you think everything will be grand, you will have probably 5-6, with the other 2-3 being situational defense or movement. I hope for the grand, as 2 offensive skills, and me actually having to stand in melee range as a wizard if I was playing one is not appealing...I would just make a melee class of some type if I have to melee to max out my dps.
So yes, EQ had 8 spell gems, but they also had abilities not tied to the spell gems, and you had access to picking all 8, now you can pick 4 (and it seems to have limitations), and then a weapon that gives you a fixed 4. If they just had 8, and got rid of this 4 abilities tied to a weapon, I think people would be more open it...I think it is here to stay though, and it comes down to how they make these weapon skills change for classes....Does a wizard with a staff have the same weapon abilities as a warrior, meaning probably that it becomes my pessimistic view of abilities, and not the grand.
In general I hated the GW2 model of weapon abilities + class abilities. In specific I believe that my dislike was largely based on the weapon abilities not having much synergy with each other and with my class abilities. Because I believe my dislike was based on a specific problem I have some hope that EQN can resolve the problem by carefully planning their weapon abilities to synergize with each other well. That being said I also want to feel like I need to choose between abilities and not just spam out a rotation over and over. They talked about the League of Legends model a bit in the classes panel and I'm kind of hoping we get a modifiable 8 button LoL feeling to our weapon and class abilities. Being required to make strategic choices based off of quick analysis of the situation and making it feel like those strategic decisions made a difference could make the difference between an epic 8 button adventure and a tired old rotation at the end of which mobs are dead.
The Secret World has 8 skills w/ 8 passives, I didn't hear anybody complaining how it was made for console. Can you drama queens pull your skirts down and stop this? Worst, worst WORST community ever. You people are fucking miserable, yet you refuse to go play whatever old game with 30 skills on the screen and macros that makes you happy.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Our experiences in GW2 couldn't be further from different. I would COMPLETELY agree that any fight with more than 3 people on each side *can* get into a spam-fest depending upon the class, more often than not that wasn't the case at all.
You are right, you can do mediocre and get wins just mashing buttons and having a decent class to fall back on. Guardian or Bunker Engineers prove this quite well, to contrast this, though, when you meet someone that is very skilled and knows their opponents you know it. It's shockingly painful and, imo, quite gratifying knowing that this level of depth exists.
I do agree that I'm being optimistic when I hope that they make the classes and abilities good enough to make it a meaningful and challenging decision. I'm confident that with their experience they can do this. Will there be cookie-cutter builds? Of course! As long as those aren't the only viable builds than I really don't care. IMO there are FAR more opportunities with a limited 8-power system than there are with no limits. With no limits you really are stuck with just your talents/gear and cookie-cutter has so much more meaning because EVERY "Thief" is the same, every "Cleric" is the same, every "Warrior" is the same, but if I have 50-60 abilities to choose from and they are all viable and competitive then the fun really begins!
I agree as well, you are being quite optimistic. You see, it is the difference of perspective on a gaming company who has destroyed numerous titles, without notable redemption, arguing "Well, they have lots of mistakes to learn from and will do well!" or "Well, they have made lots of mistakes and are likely to continue making them (unless better advised)." You are the former, and I the latter. I am a realist to the bitter end and will always look to the past for the future. As Marx showed, history often repeats itself.
If my posts are too long to read, I request that individuals do not respond to them. If they are too complex or contrary to receive as anything other than "I respect other opinions, but think it would be wise to consider X or Y," I request that individuals do not oversimplify them, especially incorrectly. Though, I will politely acknowledge that it may be partially my fault due to wording. I, at no point, allude to my 'ways' being "better than everyone else's." I do, however, produce the argument that fewer buttons reduce variance between competence. It reduces the margin of error significantly, if not exponentially based on how competent fingers are, and increases margin of success for the erroneous. But my argument was ignored and seemingly lumped into some strange take on elitism.
In closing and regards to GW2. It should not surprise you that depth exists within GW2's combat system. Rather, it should be glaringly obvious and punch you in the fucking nose. The fact that it is subtle and does not is my exactly problem with it, because it really should be readily apparent. One should not be able to effectively top the chart with face-rolling and good movement (sidenote: Engineers were regarded as one of the worst classes, it is fun to hear you say that they were decent. I played a potion and bleed build post-nerf and was highly successful). One should have to be relatively competent and skillful with their chosen class to flourish, which is most peoples' chief complaint with modern day WoW, and a number of other MMOs on the market. This supposed depth that is elusive to so many people is exactly what worries me about EQN's forthcoming combat system, and is a valid concern. That is not to say that it is definitively how it is going to be, but it is important that it is vocalized to reduce irrational hype based on contrary evidence. Thus far it sounds a lot like Guild Wars 2 with exuberant amounts of AoE, meaning I may not even have to look at my screen to know that I am making contact with the enemy. I am certain plenty of people love that aspect and imagine that it will be like God of War - but I have reason to doubt it.
Comments
@Roguewiz (offtopic): Your avatar quote makes me wish there were a Dragonlance MMO.
On Topic: I think 8 is enough. The last MMO I played was WoW, and the skill bloat is just ridiculous. To play the game at peak skill levels you have to have between 15-35 keybinds, depending on class. Damage skills, interrupts, CC, CC clear, heals, long term buffs, short term buffs, conditionals.... And that's fun to a certain extent, but it's a lot to keep in your head. It wouldn't work with class switching.
EQN is closer to the Original EQ than the F2P EQ we have today. In it's origin, playing an EQ warrior, you had like 4 buttons to push. Attack, kick, bash, taunt. Over time they added more to do with disciplines and AAs, but it was very, very simple. A caster in the game had a few more buttons to click, but they can still only memorize 8 spells at once. You set up your spell kit for whatever dungeon/group you were participating with.
I like the return to that type of decision making. Pick what class and weapon you're going to use depending on the dungeon/group you're joining. Having 8 skills seems robust enough to offer a decent amount of breakdown between damage and utility, and simple enough not to overload players who switch classes often.
I believe they gave an example of trying to tackle something and failing and then rezing (whatever the death mechanic is) changing out your build and giving it another shot.
I sounds like they are going for situational builds rather then one build for everything.
Wow, just wow.
I signed up to this forum to have some good discussions on EQN, but if this thread is anything to judge by, it is one of the worst places to do that.
There is so much misinformation going on here.
We do not know much as it is yet.
So many are actually saying things that are directly opposite of what we have heard (or read or watched)
Then there is the group that doesn't even seem interested in the game at all, but just want to sit and discuss (fight) about how bad OTHER games have been.
The people that seems to hate change and want EQN to be like their dream game, do not seem to be able to come up with anything but the same old mechanics. Nothing new from you guys at all.
There is a loud group of people that will complain just to complain. They are usually very loud and out there.
They turn a lot of the other (more sensible) people away, thereby creating a oneway discussion.
Is it so you can sit and say "Yay I won the discussion? Because a discussion that have ended because no one wants to listen to you is not won. By far.
They are the same people that usually get the attention of devs, because they are so loud.
A lot of stupid changes have been made in game development, because players insist that they want things their way.
Changes that go away from the original goal of development and therefore doesnt mesh at all with the final product.
Learn how to be a bit more relaxed and stop using the totally negative way of discussing things please, it is not constructive in any way.
If you think something "SUX" or its "GUNNA FAIL!!!", you have a few more ways of saying it than just bashing away.
If you don't, then fine. We heard you the first time, no need to jump up and down demanding attention.
How do you know?
I am not saying it wont be, but how do YOU know?
Use arguments in a discussion, not just postulates.
Or it is just yelling.
not set up quite like that, but i want many different AoE's, DoT's, summons, ports, buffs, useless spells, (shooting a ball of light or turning into a tree) i changed my spell bar so damn much in EQ1. i can even still feel the dread when i HAD to stare at my spellbook not knowing if something was coming towards me to slay my face
Sad news, not propably a game for me. I need at least 12+ skills in order to feel like my character actually can do stuff. A bunch of various attacks, lets just say 4 since EQnext has that. Maybe 2 special attacks on top of that though too.
Misc skills (mines? other triggered spells? movement boosts/escapes? less usefull fun stuff/class identity spells like summons, teleports, stealths, sprints etc) that's some 6 extra spells at least per char. I have 12 now, and I could think a bunch more of "must have spells" so yeah, I dont like this at all...
8 abilities at a time is way too little, it will lead to incredibly simple builds. Sure, some people spam only 3 skills in a MMO, I dont though, this game looked promising but this is way too core mechanic that is lacking, I didnt like it in GW2 either and it had more abilities at once, but GW2 has very poor class identity which I dont like at all.
Edit; oh and ofcourse, as always: "Fucking consoles pissing on my games and dumbing them down"
I don't mind the smaller action bars.
4 per weapon, with at least 2 weapon setups allows you access to 8 skills (assuming you can switch weapons in combat which I can't see being blocked), 4 others of your choice available depending on classes unlocked. Thats a minimum of 12 abilities (more than most MMOs make players use on a regular / semi regular basis - of course there are abilities in most MMOs that never get used, or get used once in a blue moon...). That's 12 readily available with a great depth of choice for 4 of those 12.
Then you get the items which we know will affect class abilities (and I can't see why they also wouldn't affect weapon abilities too) allowing greater customisation.
I personally don't think we have anything to worry about, at least not this early on in the game's development.
As has been said EQ had 8-12 abilities or less for almost all classes (8 spells + abilities), until AAs and even then most had less than 15 for years after, with spellbars only getting more slots in OoW (+1 spell slot) and beyond (currently at 12 spell gem slots).
I would much rather have 12 abilities at the tips of my fingers than 36 with 30 being situational or useless.
"Your post has been been flagged as possible spam. Please complete the Captcha form below to verify you're human."
Yes, I'm a robot.
I’ve always considered myself a casual player, but I enjoyed being a part of a game-world where there was real challenge that forced players to work together to come up with viable strategies and tactics.
Hopefully the EQNext developers realize that they need to build a game for their core audience. This audience forms the heart of the community. Without this audience, the game will probably wither and die after a year.
It may be too early to judge, but from the little I’ve seen so far, I fear EQNext may try to be too streamlined and accessible, too superficial, to appeal to this core. Lets hope the developers remember that this game should be designed for an adult audience and for young adults who are nerdy enough to study up on game mechanics.
Please don’t simplify the game to appeal to an audience that only wants or appreciates visceral combat. Computer roleplaying games should be made by nerds, for nerds!
I do appreciate that you see the practical sorrow in it, as a great number of people in this thread, particularly those who are interested in logging in just to smash things and log out, lack interest in the long-term amusement and diversity. "That stuff is unnecessary to kill with and therefore should be removed." Much like how in real life my ability to build a vehicle or forage water is not as important as my ability to stab a bitch in the eye with a chisel. "But it is just a game, that non-combat stuff is stupid," right? *sigh* Oh, people.
As I said, 8 skills are perfectly functional for gameplay and will not inhibit anyone - as is multi-classing. It will absolutely not break the game. But it will prevent players like me, who enjoy becoming skillfully competent enough that their name gains renown for prowess, from achieving that. After all, there will be nothing to define oneself with. Due to the min/max nature of gaming these days, giving everyone access to everything is mortifying because competitive players habitually gravitate toward playing the flavor of the month build. It is logical - psychology dictates that humans pick the most efficient and least resistant path almost always (Zipf 1949). You, as a certainly unique individual, may resist doing so, but most will not. I would anticipate it being fairly common for a player's eight button choices to match up with the person's running toward them, and there being little more to discriminate oneself with other than above average movement and perhaps intelligent use of the environment. That does not discriminate a player as excellent, just slightly more aware. People will not even take note of it.
I would rather have twenty button choices with which to combat a mirror - there is a significantly higher chance of me winning due to better reaction times, knowledge of button placement, reduced RNG, deeper understanding of situational spell tactic use, nifty tricks with skills that people of which may be ignorant, etc. Of course, the next step would be for me to argue for being locked into a class, but that would be off-topic and I hate to sway away from the topic at hand.
(strange, being flagged for spam? not amused)
Always a pleasure.
I think you're shooting down this system before you've even played it. What makes you think that having 20 button choices would be any different to having 5? or 8? or 50? People will min-max regardless of button allocation and the same scenario you describe where you say it would be "fairly common for a player's eight button choices to match up with the person's running toward them" will also happen even if there were 20 buttons or 30 buttons. It really doesn't matter.
Yes, the bad thing about the skill system is that there are mandatory button allocations and these will force people to pick classes that have the best button allocation for a certain scenario. But you can't really sit there and say adding more buttons would fix that problem.
This is not a game.
LAS has nothing to do with skill sir.
I could easily present the counterargument that those approaching this system positively are making an erroneously optimistic judgment about the system before they, too, have ever played it. We only have what information they have given us and a humble request not to compare it to Guild Wars 2 (acknowledgement of informational similarity). I place a lot of hope in this new system, but there are logistical concerns based on Guild Wars 2's new system, which closely resembles all of the information SOE has released thus far. Voicing them are not a sin, nor is pretending that they do not exist, but pretending things are grand lacks the potential to be beneficial. I would strongly prefer that SOE come out and acknowledge the concerns, rather than go "well, we can do whatever we want everyone clearly loves whatever ideas we shit out." After all, I am the consumer. You may be, too.
But since you asked why I, personally, think it would be better to have more skills - even though I offer an example of this in my original post, which I request kindly that you read - I will gladly try to give you an additional reason. The original post is quoted just above, feel free to tinker with it at your leisure. I have a history of prowess within MMORPGs, notably in regards PvP. This changed for the first time when I played Guild Wars 2 and realized that I was just as effective not bothering to watch my opponent's attacks and focus on my own cooldowns and movements. Frankly, I was still grand, probably due to years of quick reacting - I topped the charts in every BG that I entered and was more than apt to handle 1v3s (I played an Engineer). When I handled a 1v3 on WoW, DAoC, or Tera, I always felt rather accomplished and proud of myself. In GW2 I did not, I felt like I mashed buttons better than they did and got lucky with motion. I fear that will spill over in EQN, and leave me unhappy - "selfish," I'm sure. But if I did not want something I enjoyed, I would not have looked so forward to EQN for the past four years, I would have sat on GW2 and said "it'll never be as good as this." I never had any clever tricks to pull, no brilliant spell reflections, no trinkets or gadgets that lined up perfectly. Frankly, I gave not a single fuck what skills my enemy was using because they largely all looked the same and did not really matter - my face-roll and move effectively strategy reigned supreme. I dueled, I battlegrounded, I even did ranked things from time to time. It was not slow paced and thought provoking or strategic, it was a rush of quick shooting and rolling around. May the best button masher and running win. I disliked that, a lot.
If you think that is great gameplay, I wholly support your right to an opinion. However, I respectfully disagree and think a small skill-set is overly limiting by comparison. I linked a favorite old video from earlier WoW, which demonstrates the power in having a large arsenal with which to handle everything uniquely at your fingertips (though, I feel the need to put forth the argument that as WoW progressed and more buttons were added, they reduced it to many fewer in an actual rotation, resulting in the skill-less button mashing seen today). With eight buttons, that video would not have been nearly as amusing and he would have more than likely perished numerous times, as would I were I in his shoes. Ultimately it boils down to having fewer ways to be good and fewer ways to make mistakes, placing great players and horrendous players on a relatively small disparity of skill. That, specifically, is what bothers me.
This is not about the ability to strike the one key when "1" pops up on screen. I have trained cats to do that. This is about hitting the "1" button when it would be intelligent to in the fight. Giving idiot Joe a multiple choice test where he has 8 choices versus giving him one with 20 enables him a significantly higher chance of hitting the right button because his finger is too fat for his keyboard than because he is intelligent and chose it because the guy in front was casting Ice Blast and he wanted to Spell Reflect it.
Onwards. Players will always min/max, I am not presenting an argument that that is a bad thing. After all, I certainly do it, but within the confines and restrictions that I am given. The problem that I have with it is more related to multi-classing than it is to the skill-set, hence why I drop off my argument there and use it primarily as an example. Naturally, if everyone can switch to the skillset that is optimal at the time, people will. EQN allows that, and it makes me not look forward to the 80,000 teleporting Ranger war that is to come. The reason I use this example is to relate to my above paragraph, in which more skills allow discrepancy between the better teleporting Ranger due to a higher level of being error-prone and a higher level of reactionary eloquence.
Always a pleasure.
It does have to do with decision making skill sir. Hence I like these kind of skill system, the more limited it is, the more challenging of the type of skill combo you'd like to perform.
After playing GW2 no its just not enough. Its spammy it by default dislikes stealth tactics and ranged tactics in favor of zergs and AOE spams. Everyone will end up being some DPS warrior mage with some kind of dps spam. Even if by some act of god they (unlike GW2) make their healing and debuff skills actually useful your reactive3 abilities will still be overwhelmed by the circular AOE melee zerg barreling at you. Also it makes 3 demensional boards useless since for the most part people end up being a roaming mob.
Have no mistake as well they will most likely section off skills into homogenized groups so you will have far fewer choices than you think. They probably are doing it because its easy for little kids to learn, makes their job easier, but most people interested in pvp or good combat, hate it.
Our experiences in GW2 couldn't be further from different. I would COMPLETELY agree that any fight with more than 3 people on each side *can* get into a spam-fest depending upon the class, more often than not that wasn't the case at all.
You are right, you can do mediocre and get wins just mashing buttons and having a decent class to fall back on. Guardian or Bunker Engineers prove this quite well, to contrast this, though, when you meet someone that is very skilled and knows their opponents you know it. It's shockingly painful and, imo, quite gratifying knowing that this level of depth exists.
I do agree that I'm being optimistic when I hope that they make the classes and abilities good enough to make it a meaningful and challenging decision. I'm confident that with their experience they can do this. Will there be cookie-cutter builds? Of course! As long as those aren't the only viable builds than I really don't care. IMO there are FAR more opportunities with a limited 8-power system than there are with no limits. With no limits you really are stuck with just your talents/gear and cookie-cutter has so much more meaning because EVERY "Thief" is the same, every "Cleric" is the same, every "Warrior" is the same, but if I have 50-60 abilities to choose from and they are all viable and competitive then the fun really begins!
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Well, to be fair, unless they change something, EQ1 you had 8 spell gems, then you had you numbered skill pad for emotes, kicks, attack, taunt and such, and in EQN you had 4 slots for class skills as a caster, and then 4 slots for a weapon....So potentially, you have from their demo probably the energy or whatever they use to cast damage, 2 damage spells, 1 defense and 1 misc/situational spell....Even if you could support it, say 3 damage spells, if you would be allowed, the system is still a little vague on how much you can customize.
So if you were a dps caster you have probably 2 spells for damage, and then 4 weapon skills....The million dollar question is, say as a wizard, if you wield a staff, how many of these weapon skills will actually be melee attacks/blocks, and will their be any offensive or defensive spells tied to your melee weapon that you can channel as a caster. If they don't have a attack that is like a 'free' ability that can be used while you wait for mana or stamina or whatever will be the commodity they use, and you actually have to melee to be effective, that is crap imo. I do not play a offensive dps caster to be melee.
So I see if you are pessimistic you have 2 offensive abilities without having to melee, and if you think everything will be grand, you will have probably 5-6, with the other 2-3 being situational defense or movement. I hope for the grand, as 2 offensive skills, and me actually having to stand in melee range as a wizard if I was playing one is not appealing...I would just make a melee class of some type if I have to melee to max out my dps.
So yes, EQ had 8 spell gems, but they also had abilities not tied to the spell gems, and you had access to picking all 8, now you can pick 4 (and it seems to have limitations), and then a weapon that gives you a fixed 4. If they just had 8, and got rid of this 4 abilities tied to a weapon, I think people would be more open it...I think it is here to stay though, and it comes down to how they make these weapon skills change for classes....Does a wizard with a staff have the same weapon abilities as a warrior, meaning probably that it becomes my pessimistic view of abilities, and not the grand.
The Secret World has 8 skills w/ 8 passives, I didn't hear anybody complaining how it was made for console. Can you drama queens pull your skirts down and stop this? Worst, worst WORST community ever. You people are fucking miserable, yet you refuse to go play whatever old game with 30 skills on the screen and macros that makes you happy.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I agree as well, you are being quite optimistic. You see, it is the difference of perspective on a gaming company who has destroyed numerous titles, without notable redemption, arguing "Well, they have lots of mistakes to learn from and will do well!" or "Well, they have made lots of mistakes and are likely to continue making them (unless better advised)." You are the former, and I the latter. I am a realist to the bitter end and will always look to the past for the future. As Marx showed, history often repeats itself.
If my posts are too long to read, I request that individuals do not respond to them. If they are too complex or contrary to receive as anything other than "I respect other opinions, but think it would be wise to consider X or Y," I request that individuals do not oversimplify them, especially incorrectly. Though, I will politely acknowledge that it may be partially my fault due to wording. I, at no point, allude to my 'ways' being "better than everyone else's." I do, however, produce the argument that fewer buttons reduce variance between competence. It reduces the margin of error significantly, if not exponentially based on how competent fingers are, and increases margin of success for the erroneous. But my argument was ignored and seemingly lumped into some strange take on elitism.
In closing and regards to GW2. It should not surprise you that depth exists within GW2's combat system. Rather, it should be glaringly obvious and punch you in the fucking nose. The fact that it is subtle and does not is my exactly problem with it, because it really should be readily apparent. One should not be able to effectively top the chart with face-rolling and good movement (sidenote: Engineers were regarded as one of the worst classes, it is fun to hear you say that they were decent. I played a potion and bleed build post-nerf and was highly successful). One should have to be relatively competent and skillful with their chosen class to flourish, which is most peoples' chief complaint with modern day WoW, and a number of other MMOs on the market. This supposed depth that is elusive to so many people is exactly what worries me about EQN's forthcoming combat system, and is a valid concern. That is not to say that it is definitively how it is going to be, but it is important that it is vocalized to reduce irrational hype based on contrary evidence. Thus far it sounds a lot like Guild Wars 2 with exuberant amounts of AoE, meaning I may not even have to look at my screen to know that I am making contact with the enemy. I am certain plenty of people love that aspect and imagine that it will be like God of War - but I have reason to doubt it.
Always a pleasure.