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So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

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  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    I NEVER understood why people attacked the Trinity. It works. Like the wheel. Why re-invent it just "we had enough of it"? It doesn't make sense to me. No other system EVER made teamwork and cooperation as meaningful as the Trinity. Period.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Uhm... WHAT?!

    **snip**

    I feel like maybe you should actually watch the video, as it's (a) from an industry veteran and (b) echoes just about everything I've ever heard every other AI programmer say (including ones I've directly worked alongside on games) about AI.

    Basically there are two sides two AI in games:  Decision-making and The Player's Perception.

    Decision-making is what the AI is actually choosing to do.  Generally I haven't seen the quality of this increase too substantially over the years.  As far back as Half-Life 1 we had AI which was basically as smart as Last of Us.

    What has changed then?

    The Player's Perception.   This is the side of AI programming which represents all of the smoke and mirrors used to trick the player into thinking the enemy is smart.

    This is stuff like when the decision-making code says "Throw a grenade..." it also includes code that says "...and play a 'Grenade out!' voiceover too."

    And that's really been it over the years, including The Last of Us' AI.  AI has not actually become smarter (better at decision-making) but has become easier to be perceived as smart (better at informing the player of its actions.)

    ...which in a roundabout way is actually the AI becoming stupider.

    AI hasn't failed to become better at decision-making because the AI programmers aren't trying, but because (a) in a game if the player doesn't perceive it, it doesn't exist, and (b) for the reasons clearly stated by Soren in the video where the point of the AI is to be an interesting game rule to play with, not to make the player feel stupid.

    I guess that's where we disagree.

    Some players actually enjoy the challenge. I guess I'm one of them. And some developers (like the ones I've listed), not only think it's okay to have more realistic AI, they actually think it's fun.

    The Player's Perception part, is a part of all game aspects, not just AI. It's basically what all good designers do to try and mask the limitations a game has. As AI is still very much in it's early years, it has many flaws. And thus, good designers try and design their games in ways that minimize the ways in which those flaws are visible. Last of Us is a good example of this. There are parts in the game where you quite clearly can see some of the AI limitations, but the game is done well enough that they aren't happening every few minutes, and they don't happen long enough to pull you out of the game.

    In order for the AI to be becoming stupider, you're going to have to give examples of older games with more robust AI. I can't think of a single one. Even RTS games have been improving. ALL AI is programmed off a series of states & conditions. That 'throw a grenade' code is part of it. And in games like GW2 AND The Last of Us, those conditions go beyond a simple 'throw grenade now!' code. There are weighted conditions.

    For example:

    GW2:

    - Threat is weighed amongst a number of conditions:

    Who has the most thoughness, is doing the most damage, has the least health, is closest to the target, is reviving someone, is currently visible. Certain criteria (like toughness, damage, and health) is weighed more heavily than the others. And all are constantly being measured during a fight. Which is why you will occasionally see someone get hit out of nowhere, when they least expect it. Someone's health drops below other group members, while they are still out damaging the others, and BAM they are now the prime target. That's just one example.

    Last of Us:

    - Enemies act differently based on type:

    Some are much more sensitive to sound, and will aggressively charge in that direction, but are bad about patrolling (clickers).

    Some enemies have very small awareness ranges, but once tripped are very difficult to lose (runners).

    Some enemies will actively flank you, will call out when they hear strange noises, will flush you out of hiding

    Granted, a lot of that AI tech was in development since the first Uncharted game, but that's how smart companies implement robust features with limited resources.

     

    - Soren maks a lot of good points, but I think you're confusing quite a few of them. For starters, he's not just talking about AI in games. He's comparing perfect AI to video game AI. You can't take that comparison and then make it only about implemented game AI. I know that AI has been developed (like deep blue), to be extremely efficient. There's even a web test used by certain AI programmers that attempts to simulate actual human behavior (and does a fairly convincing job of it).

    And then there is AI that's actually been implemented in game design. Included in that statement (when you talk about AI getting dumber), is him referring to AI as it gets applied to games. Else you essentially have AI that 'cheats', and works on perfect information that an actual player wouldn't have.

    That doesn't mean that Command & Conquer had better AI than Starcraft II, that Thief had more sophisticated AI than Last of Us, that Doom had better AI than Half Life 2, or that EQ had more sophisticated AI than GW2.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    But, then they might actually have to pay attention, know how to play their class, and not be terribad?

    DPS tends to draw in the "wheee pew pew big numbers and phat loots!" types.

    They could use a lesson or two in patience, IMO.

     Is it  a lack of patience to not want to waste the time you have to play not playing? I don't think so. If I have two hours to play during a sitting, why would I want to spend an hour of it looking for a proper group? I don't think it's really hard to understand what the problem with that would be, and it's certainly not an issue of patience.

    I don't think there's much wrong with trinity systems, I've always enjoyed it in an MMO along with turn-based combat, yet I don't think it's absence is a negative for a game in an of itself. There are certainly other systems that work. SWG was never really a trinity based game, and it was one of my favorite MMOs.

    The worst thing about trinity is the elitist attitude that comes along with it (displayed above in red).

    I don't think it's necessarily patience either. I think the problem is as follows:

    DPS builds are universal. Players who roll DPS for PVE can pretty much do and go where ever they want. Solo, large groups, small groups, raids, for the most part, it doesn't matter. It's easy to transition from Questing, to dungeons, to raids as long as you don't try to skip over the normal progression. You are effective as you are.

    But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way. Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elikal
    I NEVER understood why people attacked the Trinity. It works. Like the wheel. Why re-invent it just "we had enough of it"? It doesn't make sense to me. No other system EVER made teamwork and cooperation as meaningful as the Trinity. Period.

    That's because no OTHER system was ever really tried. You can't say 'this is what we've always had', and then follow it up with 'no other system'. It's a paradox.

    That said, the trinity is NOT a perfect system. We have 10 years of MMOs that show this quite clearly. It's also been explained (in great detail) as to what it's flaws are.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way.

    Have you ever played a blood death knight, protection warrior or paladin, or feral bear druid in WoW?

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st.

    In poorly designed games, yes.

    So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    Poorly designed games, with poor loot systems to boot.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    Your whole argument is based on an imaginary fact that all games are as poorly designed as what you describe, and that is obviously not true.

    As you should know if you read my posts, I'm no trinity defender at all, but this post of yours doesn't make much sense to me, sorry.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon

    Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,745Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    Really? Some of the knee-jerk reaction to EQN says differently.

    What you're implying is that if someone rejects one new thing, they reject all new things.  Are you honestly suggesting that rejecting EQN means nobody wants new experiences?

    New experiences are the fundamental driving force behind not just the games industry, but all entertainment industries (yes, even that one.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way.

    Have you ever played a blood death knight, protection warrior or paladin, or feral bear druid in WoW?

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st.

    In poorly designed games, yes.

    So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    Poorly designed games, with poor loot systems to boot.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    Your whole argument is based on an imaginary fact that all games are as poorly designed as what you describe, and that is obviously not true.

    As you should know if you read my posts, I'm no trinity defender at all, but this post of yours doesn't make much sense to me, sorry.

    No, you said games are poorly designed. I am simply stating how it is. Hybrid classes still need multiple sets of gear. And that requires much more work for other specs than DPS.

    Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?  Do you just make this stuff up off the top of your head? Go ahead, level up a tank all the way to cap and show up at instanced content in your quested greens. 

     

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member
    Originally posted by Elikal
    I NEVER understood why people attacked the Trinity. It works. Like the wheel. Why re-invent it just "we had enough of it"? It doesn't make sense to me. No other system EVER made teamwork and cooperation as meaningful as the Trinity. Period.

    A wheel is a great solution of you want to steer a car. Not so great if you want to steer a helicopter. As long as noone even attempts to make something else than a wheel, we're just going to continue driving cars, and never get to fly a helicopter. It's likely the first few attempts at getting the helicopter to fly are going to lead to spectacular crashes. You're proposing we should just stop trying. I don't agree with that stance, that's all.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    But, then they might actually have to pay attention, know how to play their class, and not be terribad?

    DPS tends to draw in the "wheee pew pew big numbers and phat loots!" types.

    They could use a lesson or two in patience, IMO.

     Is it  a lack of patience to not want to waste the time you have to play not playing? I don't think so. If I have two hours to play during a sitting, why would I want to spend an hour of it looking for a proper group? I don't think it's really hard to understand what the problem with that would be, and it's certainly not an issue of patience.

    I don't think there's much wrong with trinity systems, I've always enjoyed it in an MMO along with turn-based combat, yet I don't think it's absence is a negative for a game in an of itself. There are certainly other systems that work. SWG was never really a trinity based game, and it was one of my favorite MMOs.

    The worst thing about trinity is the elitist attitude that comes along with it (displayed above in red).

    I don't think it's necessarily patience either. I think the problem is as follows:

    DPS builds are universal. Players who roll DPS for PVE can pretty much do and go where ever they want. Solo, large groups, small groups, raids, for the most part, it doesn't matter. It's easy to transition from Questing, to dungeons, to raids as long as you don't try to skip over the normal progression. You are effective as you are.

    But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way. Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    What you are pointing out is a flaw in level-based design and not one directly related to the trinity or even dedicated roles in combat. What you bring up is certainly an issue, but its roots lie outside the design and mechanics of the trinity.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way.

    Have you ever played a blood death knight, protection warrior or paladin, or feral bear druid in WoW?

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st.

    In poorly designed games, yes.

    So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    Poorly designed games, with poor loot systems to boot.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    Your whole argument is based on an imaginary fact that all games are as poorly designed as what you describe, and that is obviously not true.

    As you should know if you read my posts, I'm no trinity defender at all, but this post of yours doesn't make much sense to me, sorry.

    No, you said games are poorly designed. I am simply stating how it is. Hybrid classes still need multiple sets of gear. And that requires much more work for other specs than DPS.

    Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?  Do you just make this stuff up off the top of your head? Go ahead, level up a tank all the way to cap and show up at instanced content in your quested greens. 

    I wouldn't post it if I didn't experience it... I played WoW for 8+ years, and my main was a tank. Feral Druid and later Blood DK.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.

    Every tranditional dungeon/raid MMO I've played has had groups of players that were very sucessful with non-standard builds. They don't tend to be the fastest at zooming through the content because they can't reference an "online play book." The trinity is familiar, easy all you need to do is watch the youtube, read the notes and you too can complete the content.   

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    But, then they might actually have to pay attention, know how to play their class, and not be terribad?

    DPS tends to draw in the "wheee pew pew big numbers and phat loots!" types.

    They could use a lesson or two in patience, IMO.

     Is it  a lack of patience to not want to waste the time you have to play not playing? I don't think so. If I have two hours to play during a sitting, why would I want to spend an hour of it looking for a proper group? I don't think it's really hard to understand what the problem with that would be, and it's certainly not an issue of patience.

    I don't think there's much wrong with trinity systems, I've always enjoyed it in an MMO along with turn-based combat, yet I don't think it's absence is a negative for a game in an of itself. There are certainly other systems that work. SWG was never really a trinity based game, and it was one of my favorite MMOs.

    The worst thing about trinity is the elitist attitude that comes along with it (displayed above in red).

    I don't think it's necessarily patience either. I think the problem is as follows:

    DPS builds are universal. Players who roll DPS for PVE can pretty much do and go where ever they want. Solo, large groups, small groups, raids, for the most part, it doesn't matter. It's easy to transition from Questing, to dungeons, to raids as long as you don't try to skip over the normal progression. You are effective as you are.

    But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way. Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    What you are pointing out is a flaw in level-based design and not one directly related to the trinity or even dedicated roles in combat. What you bring up is certainly an issue, but its roots lie outside the design and mechanics of the trinity.

     

    Sure, It may be mechanically outside the trinity, but it is still a big part of why people are asking for a system. And maybe if that issue was addressed, it might help with games that do use the Trinity system.

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.

    What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.

    SWG had traditional dungeons like the Warren, The Vette, Lord Nyax's stronghold and the death watch bunker. There was no real need for trinity based groups there either. Many were self efficient in SWG, healing themselves, tanking and dpsing at the same time etc..,  . It was truly a system where you had to be accountable for your own self. Yet It didn't cause any real issue or chaos in dungeons.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.

    It's a ridiculous question because the combat mechanics are designed to fit the mobs mechanics. That's like asking what cars are good for driving on railroad tracks.

    To answer the question, of the MMOs without taunt mechanics, here is some similar raid-like group content:

     

    Puzzle Pirates - Island skellies

    EVE Online - Incursions

    Asheron's Call - Gaerlan Citadel

    Ultima Online - Champion spawns

     

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,745Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus

    I guess that's where we disagree.

    Some players actually enjoy the challenge. I guess I'm one of them. And some developers (like the ones I've listed), not only think it's okay to have more realistic AI, they actually think it's fun.

    The Player's Perception part, is a part of all game aspects, not just AI. It's basically what all good designers do to try and mask the limitations a game has. As AI is still very much in it's early years, it has many flaws. And thus, good designers try and design their games in ways that minimize the ways in which those flaws are visible. Last of Us is a good example of this. There are parts in the game where you quite clearly can see some of the AI limitations, but the game is done well enough that they aren't happening every few minutes, and they don't happen long enough to pull you out of the game.

    In order for the AI to be becoming stupider, you're going to have to give examples of older games with more robust AI. I can't think of a single one. Even RTS games have been improving. ALL AI is programmed off a series of states & conditions. That 'throw a grenade' code is part of it. And in games like GW2 AND The Last of Us, those conditions go beyond a simple 'throw grenade now!' code. There are weighted conditions.

    For example:

    GW2:

    - Threat is weighed amongst a number of conditions:

    Who has the most thoughness, is doing the most damage, has the least health, is closest to the target, is reviving someone, is currently visible. Certain criteria (like toughness, damage, and health) is weighed more heavily than the others. And all are constantly being measured during a fight. Which is why you will occasionally see someone get hit out of nowhere, when they least expect it. Someone's health drops below other group members, while they are still out damaging the others, and BAM they are now the prime target. That's just one example.

    Last of Us:

    - Enemies act differently based on type:

    Some are much more sensitive to sound, and will aggressively charge in that direction, but are bad about patrolling (clickers).

    Some enemies have very small awareness ranges, but once tripped are very difficult to lose (runners).

    Some enemies will actively flank you, will call out when they hear strange noises, will flush you out of hiding

    Granted, a lot of that AI tech was in development since the first Uncharted game, but that's how smart companies implement robust features with limited resources.

     

    - Soren maks a lot of good points, but I think you're confusing quite a few of them. For starters, he's not just talking about AI in games. He's comparing perfect AI to video game AI. You can't take that comparison and then make it only about implemented game AI. I know that AI has been developed (like deep blue), to be extremely efficient. There's even a web test used by certain AI programmers that attempts to simulate actual human behavior (and does a fairly convincing job of it).

    And then there is AI that's actually been implemented in game design. Included in that statement (when you talk about AI getting dumber), is him referring to AI as it gets applied to games. Else you essentially have AI that 'cheats', and works on perfect information that an actual player wouldn't have.

    That doesn't mean that Command & Conquer had better AI than Starcraft II, that Thief had more sophisticated AI than Last of Us, that Doom had better AI than Half Life 2, or that EQ had more sophisticated AI than GW2.

    Enjoying challenge has nothing to do with smart AI.  Are you suggesting that because Geometry Wars 2 has a deterministic AI (completely predictable) that scoring as high as this player is easy?  Nonsense.

    What "realistic AI" games do you think you've played?  Last of Us?

    • Tactics (decision-making): Animation quality notwithstanding, the tactical decisions of Last of Us' monsters aren't any better or worse than similar games of the last decade.  They don't outflank you in clever ways, and they make the eternal AI mistake of always leaving part of their body visible around cover to be noticed and/or shot.
    • Zombies (player perception): many AI programmers go out of their way to mention zombie games specifically as being something that's easier to do AI programming for. It goes back to player perception, since the expectation is zombies are dumb -- so instead of immediately saying to yourself, "Wow that's one retarded SWAT team member," you end up saying "Haha, stupid zombie!"  It's a significant advantage.  It redirects player criticism from the code to the zombie.
    • AI Variety: A variety of AIs doesn't make them smarter.  You may notice I refer to AI as a puzzle -- well AI variety is more puzzles, and who doesn't like more puzzles!

    As for AI becoming stupider, it's ironically the very thing that causes players to think it's smarter!  HL1's AI had a basic understanding of surroundings and how to flank the player.  FEAR's AI was nearly identical in this regard, but it was praised by players far more than HL1's AI.  Why?  Because FEAR's AI announced what it was doing more often, which let the player perceive that they were attempting to flank him.

    Why is that stupider?  Well what SWAT team do you think is going to be more successful: the one that announces every single tactical move it makes and chatters constantly to reveal its location, or the one that uses a minimal amount of chatter?

    So FEAR's AI is actually stupider, even though players feel like (and often say) it's smarter.  It's good smoke and mirrors, because stupider AI or not, the players think you did something amazing (which means you did something amazing.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.

    What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.

    That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.

    It's a ridiculous question because the combat mechanics are designed to fit the mobs mechanics. That's like asking what cars are good for driving on railroad tracks.

    To answer the question, of the MMOs without taunt mechanics, here is some similar raid-like group content:

     

    Puzzle Pirates - Island skellies

    EVE Online - Incursions

    Asheron's Call - Gaerlan Citadel

    Ultima Online - Champion spawns

     

     

     

     

    What's ridiculous was that bad analogy. Distopia answered the question without having to drive on railroad tracks.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
    ArenaNet started it because saying the holy trinity is bad was a way to sell their game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the holy trinity of mmos. MMOs fail because of bad vision, bad game design and publishers sticking their noses in where it doesn't belong just to meet a quarterly earnings report.

    Good points. Also keep in mind that AN has always tried to be as different from WoW as humanly possible. Even to the point of nonsense.  The threat dynamic made sense for its time, and also made fights manageable.  But it also tended to make them both more simple and complex.  It made the role of tank easier, but it also made the design of the fights more complex, as well as limiting.

    But as a side effect, it also made good tanks and healers very, VERY important for group content. Which lead to prima donna syndrome with many of both classes, and the negatives that go with that.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.

    What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.

    That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.

    Wrong. And specially as a tank, since your queue time will be quasi non-existent.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • NephelaiNephelai SydneyPosts: 184Member Uncommon

    People who keep quoting smart AI are really advocating dumb or scripted AI. If a boss was programmed with the smartest AI you would not defeat it other than bringing more players than it can kill.  What you are really pining for is some "pretend" non trinity thru scripted AI so you "feel" like its not trinity. Trinity exists because if you make a boss smart you will die. It has nothing to do with game age. Take the threat table of Ragnaros and see how many guilds would of defeated it. Making a boss defeatable isnt smart AI it's gimped AI.

     

    Using gw2 boss fights as examples is embarrassing.  They are zergs de tuned  such that the boss dies before 5 players. 

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.

    What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.

    That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.

    Wrong. And specially as a tank, since your queue time will be quasi non-existent.

    Wrong, as a tank, you ARE going to run heroics as DPS and slowly gather your tanking gear as you can so that you can continue to collect your dungeon tokens for raid gear while you do it.

  • marsh9799marsh9799 jackson, MSPosts: 100Member

    The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs.  You can go back to Pen and Paper games.  You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve.  The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.

    The reason I think you see all the hate is because the Trinity has become end all be all in MMOs in the past decade or so.  The Trinity used to be the foundation for a group.  Now, the Trinity typically is the group.  You don't see support classes in many games anymore.  Rift kind of had it and is moving back to it again.  If you look back at a lot of the older games (Everquest 1, DAOC, Shadowbane, etc.), you'll see that there were numerous classes that did not fit well into the Tank, Healer, DPS paradigm.  Yet, this is where the term Trinity was popularized.

     

    I played a Shaman for most of my time in Everquest.  I didn't do a whole lot of damage.  I didn't do a whole lot of healing.  I couldn't tank at all.  However, I was one of the most sought after classes in the game for groups because of the support I brought in terms of debuffs and buffs along with some damage and some healing.  You don't see that anymore in MMOs much.  You also don't see hybrids.  It seems like in today's games, hybrid means you can do multiple roles equally well just not at the same time.

     

    I think the best way to address the issue is to expand the number of group roles available and make every class a hybrid.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.

    It's not so much  a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.

    That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.

    What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.

    That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.

    Wrong. And specially as a tank, since your queue time will be quasi non-existent.

    Wrong, as a tank, you ARE going to run heroics as DPS and slowly gather your tanking gear as you can so that you can continue to collect your dungeon tokens for raid gear while you do it.

    Well, you can't fool me on this since I'm still playing the game at the moment. Maybe you do it wrong, or just think it works that way, fact is that in game, it doesn't work that way at all, and doing normals to gear up works just fine.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

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