If you are ONLY allowed 4 skills per class (so that a lvl 1 wizard has same 4 abilities as a lvl 99 wizard) and they can't change that, then that is TERRIBLE.
If you unlock skills as you get higher and can change those four skills around. That's a little better. Same goes for weapons.
Also, it seems you can unlock skills for other classes while being a wizard. I wonder if that means you can use a rogue ability as a wizard too.
Now, even with that, I would STILL prefer more abilities.
I saw someone post a video of how a person should use 6-8 abilities for a PVE rotation and the order. Great.
Except you still use other abilities at different times for different situations. And PvP is a totally different ballgame. You may have an attack that does more magic damage (better against high armor targets) which you hardly use in PvE! PvP is so much more complex that having a lot of options on hand DURING the fight is huge for a game.
Giving players more options is NOT a bad thing.
There are no levels. So a starting wizard and one that has been playing for awhile will have access to the same weapon abilities, IF they chose the same weapon at creation. If the long playing wizard has found/unlocked other wizard weapons, then they will have more avenues to choose from.
Yes a wizard could choose a character ability from an unlocked rogue or warrior class, IF the wizard class has a character ability slot type like that of a rogue or warrior. Example; you are a wizard and you want to run faster, the rogue might have a movement character ability while the warrior does not, therefor you would be limited to choosing a movement ability from the rogue. Example 2; if both the rogue and warrior had a movement ability, then you could choose either of those character movement abilities. What you can't do is take a warrior defensive ability and put it into a movement character slot.
I'm wayy more concerned with only have 4 abilties that you can customized. 8 skills has been, and always will be, better then 40+ rotations..it's the reason GW1 was amazing. It was also amazing because you could customize all 8 skills tho too.
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience. 'cause everyone thinks they're right, And nobody thinks that there just might Be more than one road to our final destination--
Originally posted by maphreal It's fine with me. I mean honestly, when is the last time you played a WoW-styled sandwich combat MMO where you had a gazillion abilities on your GUI and actually used them all constantly? You typically only have a 4-6 button rotation, and everything else was either a buff or utility you rarely used. I'd rather have interesting choices that I can change whenever I want, rather than having hotbar diarrhea hogging my screen.
I agree, and according to the poll at this point, so do the majority of people that voted. If the 8 skills system will deliver engaging combat, I think it will be more appealing to players than having 25 weak or highly situational skills that are hardly worth putting on your hotbar.
Make no mistake, the 8 key hotbar is a design decision based on the PS4, as it was in DCUO for the PS3. As long as they improve some of the shortcomings of the DCUO combat system, such as duplicative specials and "clipping" as a design choice (when they either could not or would not bother to fix the bug that caused clipping), then combat should be exciting for those that enjoy twitch-based combat.
If you HAVE to have two hotbars filled with abilities, or you are not a fan of more twitch oriented combat, then this game will most likely not be for you. I'm in favor of this kind of combat. Unfortunately, I'm not into the whole fantasy scene, and I'm definitely not into anything related to SOE, so I'm out. That said, I hope this game succeeds. It shows that SOE may have finally realized that some of the qualities of yesteryear from games like SWG should not have been so quickly abandoned in favor of trying to copy the WoW model. If the game is successful, it will prompt other companies to again consider things like true open-world environments and exploration, along with newer features.
There are still levels.. just labeled differently .. The devs call them tiers.. (cough) The only way you go from one tier to a higher one is to earn it.. One might be a tier 3 warrior, and also a tier 1 mage.. etc etc.. You still have to work on those tiers (aka levels) to unlock more options that lead to a STRONGER character.. In any case, it's still character progression.. You say potAto, I say potato, tomAto, tomato, levels, tiers.. lets call the whole thing off
Originally posted by Rydeson There are still levels.. just labeled differently .. The devs call them tiers.. (cough) The only way you go from one tier to a higher one is to earn it.. One might be a tier 3 warrior, and also a tier 1 mage.. etc etc.. You still have to work on those tiers (aka levels) to unlock more options that lead to a STRONGER character.. In any case, it's still character progression.. You say potAto, I say potato, tomAto, tomato, levels, tiers.. lets call the whole thing off
I know that we want to find some type of common ground with levels, so we all feel comfortable, and so that we don't think this game is a skill progression game vs a level progression game. But I completely disagree that tiers=levels.
You have to get x number of experience points to "level" up, which normally takes a set amount of time grinding away at quests or mobs etc. Each class that is unlocked is a unique experience that could take an hour or 1 min. These tiers are just different stages of the power, but they DO NOT equate to the same time sink that levels did. There is no working on the tiers, either you unlock it or you don't, and the way you unlock it is by playing the game, not by being led around by some linear quest line that finally gives you a "ding".
Yes tiers will be a time sink, but it will be a different experience while going through the time sink.
Also they refer to tiers in 2 different manners, the tiers of player power and the tiers of the world. So when they mention tiers we really have to pay attention to what tier they mean. A new character at creation will have 4 weapon ability slots and 4 character ability slots, now I'm assuming that they will have abilities that fill those slots right at creation, so we as players have at least 8 basic abilities at creation. Then it is up to us as players to go adventuring in the world, and along the way we might help an old man (aka the wizard) or help some orcs. When we have helped either group it may open up an avenue to automatically get a new "tier" of power or class; we don't have to wait until we go "ding" to get our new ability. The difference is that I could meet the old man within minutes of character creation or it might take 6 months.
I actually think some people may get frustrated with the system, not because they don't like it, but because the random factor will not be in their favor. Imagine that I started a character the same day as person B; and in a months time I had found 15 different classes that I unlocked, while person B only found 1 more. So after 1 month I have 16 classes to pick and choose from when person B only has 2. How will that make person B feel; they've been playing the same amount of time, but they just didn't explore the same places as I did, and they haven't been fortunate enough to come upon encounters that unlocked new classes. The random nature of the "tiers" or class unlocks is going to be a double edged sword. Without knowing when you will level next, there is knowing when you will get your next skill. Some people will love this new system, some will hate it because they can't plan for and go to x,y,z coordinates and get their new unlock.
I can understand the argument where you have to make a choice before a fight and are doomed to that decision but it does not allow for spontaneous in the moment change of strat with a skill from a pool and I find that very limiting . I know others will argue otherwise but I like having loads of choices but I will play it, if I have no other choice.
Originally posted by CalmOceans needs more exclamation marks
And more console revenue.
Think the thread officially ended there. No amount of QQ is likely to effect a change.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't think I have as much of a problem with only having eight skills active at any time as I do with the idea that half of them are determined by what weapon you are using. I don't see the point in this robust multiclassing system when you only get to choose four of the potentially hundreds of abilities you have unlocked through the different classes you have access to. Doesn't seem to leave much room for customization.
So much acrimony in this thread. It seems like so few are willing to look at things from multiple points of view. Those that are confident in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are not disappointed. Those who are disappointed in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are pleasantly surprised. I was always one for gray areas of aspiration built around expressed concerns.
I will admit that I am slightly worried by the limitation of eight skills. However, eight useful action oriented skills, admittedly, are all that most games utilize with regard to combat. Naturally, much of my disappointment hails from having less room for uncommonly used, highly situational skills that often distinguishes players with excellent timing and good execution. With fewer skills combat, battle becomes significantly more about the button mashing and no situational brilliance in which to flourish.
An example of this can potentially be found within the earlier years of games - likely within the commonly evoked, World of Warcraft. Some of you may recall Vurtne (his videos, notably http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bgggKMvQU, are worth a watch for nostalgia if anything), a Mage who was brilliant at abusing situational skills that were available during vanilla (reflect on Death Coils, Ice Blocked falls or incoming kill skills, cheap AoEs to break stealth, Flame Ward reflects, cheap speedcast slows, well thrown grenades to disrupt heals / important skills, Will of the Forsakening out of fears, etc. etc.) to handle multitudes of people simultaneously. I think that one of the primary reasons people are apprehensive about having so few skills available are not due to the playability of base content, but for distinction in combat (notably against other players who likely chose similar skillsets due to min/maxing). Although 8 skills will give you a competent PvE/PvP dps rotation that will operate perfectly, it will not grant the situational brilliance and awareness that many "greats" use to distinguish their selves from others. I managed a fortunate dueling record on my Tera Sorcerer - but, with only 8 skills I think most of my victories would have fallen to RNG rather than skill, as most of my them were achieved with clever timing on situational abilities and awareness. I could say the same for a number of my characters throughout various MMOs in history.
That being said, my secondary disappointment, and I feel that other old-school gamers may suffer from this as well, stems from a similar motivation but with regards to non-combat oriented skills. Part of the joy of original EverQuest were a number of spells sheerly for entertainment purposes and class uniqueness. I suppose with the rampant expectancy to change classes consistently it will not even be a viable factor; a disappointment in its self-absence. In original EverQuest certain classes had abilities that were useful for situational utility and amusement. I remember rapidly placing myself under a Dark Elf Illusion on my High Elf Enchanter because a group of kill-on-sight guards roamed by me from Neriak. The quick utility made me smile. There were many illusory spells, players could turn themselves into almost any mobile creature in the game, or even an inanimate object if wanted. It allowed players to infiltrate a number of dangerous areas. After teleporting players on my Druid, I used to turn them in wolves them for playful whimsy. Everyone loved being a wolf for a while, even if it made guards want to chop them into steaks. Magicians could summon tons of useful little items from food, water, to even light sources, while Necromancers could cast a spell that let them talk through their pet (what fun!). These little things not only added to individuality, but were nifty little utility / entertainment skills to add immersion to the world (read: "lookie what I can do!"). I escorted an evil Troll friend of mine through Qeynos via Invisibility spells once. I sort of see the limitation of four class oriented skills / spells as a means by which non-combat entertainment or immersion oriented skills will be eliminated, and that makes me sad just because I loved having them convenient for utility or personal amusement outside of combat.
In closing, I do wish to state that the 8 skill slots will function for the gameplay, because the gameplay is being designed around it - people do not need to worry about limited slots leaving them in deficiency against mobs or players. However, there is a sensible fear that the ability to readily outshine others will be significantly hindered since mobility is fairly easy to replicate and losing situational skills will reduce the ability to display excellence of skill use (knowing to hit X instead of Y at the right second), rather than pre-determined skill choice (having X on your bar beforehand instead of Y). Essentially, stifled mechanics tend to result in faulty divergence between competent players, grand players, and terrible players, because a face-roll becomes an oddly valid strategy. Finally, there may be a lack of "soul" to classes, so to speak with their individual entertainment skills removed. Bear in mind that much of this conjecture based on SOE's explanations of the combat system and they very well may find a means of balancing this delicate design to please everyone. The odds of it are slim, but at this point... no one can say for certain.
I hope things turn out better than the conclusions being drawn. I strongly suggest SOE part their tight lips and grand some insightful wisdom to us all.
Not sure why this new generation of gamers are so into this MOBA style of gaming for their MMO.
8 skills to chose from doesnt suddenly mean the game is deep and engaging. Less is more principal doesnt apply here. I remembe rhaving 50+ skills in everquest 2, even more then that in WoW, and Aion. Yet you want me to play a game for months, even years, knowng ill only have 8 skills to work with because there is some tactical element to it?
I wonder how well that is workng for guild wars 2...
It's working great and much better than I thought it would. In fact, FYI, thousands of people are using it right now as I type this! The game is a huge success! Not a single server has been closed in almost a year, and there are still players a plenty!
The limited action bar works perfectly imho!
Really? I just logged off from GW2.. I can never play that game longer then an hour.. I get so tired of the anti social Zerging.. I also get tired of hitting 1 2345, 2345, mob dies >> 1 2345 2345.. Same action no matter what or where I am.. The only time I have an variety is when I press "swap" weapons tab..
OH OH.. which by the way.. I freaking HATE having to constantly find my damn mouse to SHOW the computer where I want to place my AOE's.... OMFG.. Have you tried the Necro with a staff...... Buttons 2345 are ALL AOE's.. A royal pain ..
You're doing it wrong....You should never have to find your mouse I play a necro, with my AOEs cast in the place my mouse is....Tap button, it's cast instantly...You move and keep your mouse in sight at all times, moving with the mouse. One hand on mouse, ghosting the players, one hand on numbers and wasd. D tap for rolls.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis--- NZXT Phantom 410 Case Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
So much acrimony in this thread. It seems like so few are willing to look at things from multiple points of view. Those that are confident in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are not disappointed. Those who are disappointed in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are pleasantly surprised. I was always one for gray areas of aspiration built around expressed concerns.
I will admit that I am slightly worried by the limitation of eight skills. However, eight useful action oriented skills, admittedly, are all that most games utilize with regard to combat. Naturally, much of my disappointment hails from having less room for uncommonly used, highly situational skills that often distinguishes players with excellent timing and good execution. With fewer skills combat, battle becomes significantly more about the button mashing and no situational brilliance in which to flourish.
An example of this can potentially be found within the earlier years of games - likely within the commonly evoked, World of Warcraft. Some of you may recall Vurtne (his videos, notably http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bgggKMvQU, are worth a watch for nostalgia if anything), a Mage who was brilliant at abusing situational skills that were available during vanilla (reflect on Death Coils, Ice Blocked falls or incoming kill skills, cheap AoEs to break stealth, Flame Ward reflects, cheap speedcast slows, well thrown grenades to disrupt heals / important skills, Will of the Forsakening out of fears, etc. etc.) to handle multitudes of people simultaneously. I think that one of the primary reasons people are apprehensive about having so few skills available are not due to the playability of base content, but for distinction in combat (notably against other players who likely chose similar skillsets due to min/maxing). Although 8 skills will give you a competent PvE/PvP dps rotation that will operate perfectly, it will not grant the situational brilliance and awareness that many "greats" use to distinguish their selves from others. I managed a fortunate dueling record on my Tera Sorcerer - but, with only 8 skills I think most of my victories would have fallen to RNG rather than skill, as most of my them were achieved with clever timing on situational abilities and awareness. I could say the same for a number of my characters throughout various MMOs in history.
That being said, my secondary disappointment, and I feel that other old-school gamers may suffer from this as well, stems from a similar motivation but with regards to non-combat oriented skills. Part of the joy of original EverQuest were a number of spells sheerly for entertainment purposes and class uniqueness. I suppose with the rampant expectancy to change classes consistently it will not even be a viable factor; a disappointment in its self-absence. In original EverQuest certain classes had abilities that were useful for situational utility and amusement. I remember rapidly placing myself under a Dark Elf Illusion on my High Elf Enchanter because a group of kill-on-sight guards roamed by me from Neriak. The quick utility made me smile. There were many illusory spells, players could turn themselves into almost any mobile creature in the game, or even an inanimate object if wanted. It allowed players to infiltrate a number of dangerous areas. After teleporting players on my Druid, I used to turn them in wolves them for playful whimsy. Everyone loved being a wolf for a while, even if it made guards want to chop them into steaks. Magicians could summon tons of useful little items from food, water, to even light sources, while Necromancers could cast a spell that let them talk through their pet (what fun!). These little things not only added to individuality, but were nifty little utility / entertainment skills to add immersion to the world (read: "lookie what I can do!"). I escorted an evil Troll friend of mine through Qeynos via Invisibility spells once. I sort of see the limitation of four class oriented skills / spells as a means by which non-combat entertainment or immersion oriented skills will be eliminated, and that makes me sad just because I loved having them convenient for utility or personal amusement outside of combat.
In closing, I do wish to state that the 8 skill slots will function for the gameplay, because the gameplay is being designed around it - people do not need to worry about limited slots leaving them in deficiency against mobs or players. However, there is a sensible fear that the ability to readily outshine others will be significantly hindered since mobility is fairly easy to replicate and losing situational skills will reduce the ability to display excellence of skill use (knowing to hit X instead of Y at the right second), rather than pre-determined skill choice (having X on your bar beforehand instead of Y). Essentially, stifled mechanics tend to result in faulty divergence between competent players, grand players, and terrible players, because a face-roll becomes an oddly valid strategy. Finally, there may be a lack of "soul" to classes, so to speak with their individual entertainment skills removed. Bear in mind that much of this conjecture based on SOE's explanations of the combat system and they very well may find a means of balancing this delicate design to please everyone. The odds of it are slim, but at this point... no one can say for certain.
I hope things turn out better than the conclusions being drawn. I strongly suggest SOE part their tight lips and grand some insightful wisdom to us all.
Except a lot of those situational skills are now baked into the 8 skills you pick, by giving you temp buffs and effects. In Guild Wars 2 it's common also that your skills change as you use them, one skill rolling into another and granting mobility and some kind of useful buff. So then it's more about timing and saving the skill so it's not on cooldown. That's what I've found at least, and it works.
However I'll agree that it's sad they don't make lore spells anymore, or cantrips, or class specific spells. Or even race specific spells like how Undead Priests had their own unholy spells in WoW. I've always like playing a Wizard in DnD3.5 mostly for the diversity and enormous spell book, and some if not most of my useful spells have always been the social cantrips that let you hear underneath doors or translate any text.....Set alarms around the camp ect ect
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis--- NZXT Phantom 410 Case Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Not sure why this new generation of gamers are so into this MOBA style of gaming for their MMO.
8 skills to chose from doesnt suddenly mean the game is deep and engaging. Less is more principal doesnt apply here. I remembe rhaving 50+ skills in everquest 2, even more then that in WoW, and Aion. Yet you want me to play a game for months, even years, knowng ill only have 8 skills to work with because there is some tactical element to it?
I wonder how well that is workng for guild wars 2...
It's working great and much better than I thought it would. In fact, FYI, thousands of people are using it right now as I type this! The game is a huge success! Not a single server has been closed in almost a year, and there are still players a plenty!
The limited action bar works perfectly imho!
Really? I just logged off from GW2.. I can never play that game longer then an hour.. I get so tired of the anti social Zerging.. I also get tired of hitting 1 2345, 2345, mob dies >> 1 2345 2345.. Same action no matter what or where I am.. The only time I have an variety is when I press "swap" weapons tab..
OH OH.. which by the way.. I freaking HATE having to constantly find my damn mouse to SHOW the computer where I want to place my AOE's.... OMFG.. Have you tried the Necro with a staff...... Buttons 2345 are ALL AOE's.. A royal pain ..
You're doing it wrong....You should never have to find your mouse I play a necro, with my AOEs cast in the place my mouse is....Tap button, it's cast instantly...You move and keep your mouse in sight at all times, moving with the mouse. One hand on mouse, ghosting the players, one hand on numbers and wasd. D tap for rolls.
I tried that option on my Grenade Engineer. What a horrible function. To the prior poster, if you think Necro is bad, try Grenades. You cant even hold a target. because you are constantly clicking around.
I found the best solution was to map my 1 button to my mouse thumb key and just get used to the timing. It works better than mouse clicking.
Not sure why this new generation of gamers are so into this MOBA style of gaming for their MMO.
8 skills to chose from doesnt suddenly mean the game is deep and engaging. Less is more principal doesnt apply here. I remembe rhaving 50+ skills in everquest 2, even more then that in WoW, and Aion. Yet you want me to play a game for months, even years, knowng ill only have 8 skills to work with because there is some tactical element to it?
I wonder how well that is workng for guild wars 2...
It's working great and much better than I thought it would. In fact, FYI, thousands of people are using it right now as I type this! The game is a huge success! Not a single server has been closed in almost a year, and there are still players a plenty!
The limited action bar works perfectly imho!
Really? I just logged off from GW2.. I can never play that game longer then an hour.. I get so tired of the anti social Zerging.. I also get tired of hitting 1 2345, 2345, mob dies >> 1 2345 2345.. Same action no matter what or where I am.. The only time I have an variety is when I press "swap" weapons tab..
OH OH.. which by the way.. I freaking HATE having to constantly find my damn mouse to SHOW the computer where I want to place my AOE's.... OMFG.. Have you tried the Necro with a staff...... Buttons 2345 are ALL AOE's.. A royal pain ..
You're doing it wrong....You should never have to find your mouse I play a necro, with my AOEs cast in the place my mouse is....Tap button, it's cast instantly...You move and keep your mouse in sight at all times, moving with the mouse. One hand on mouse, ghosting the players, one hand on numbers and wasd. D tap for rolls.
I tried that option on my Grenade Engineer. What a horrible function. To the prior poster, if you think Necro is bad, try Grenades. You cant even hold a target. because you are constantly clicking around.
I found the best solution was to map my 1 button to my mouse thumb key and just get used to the timing. It works better than mouse clicking.
I've never had a problem, though I generally don't ever target a single player. I usually do AOE damage and have my setup for AOE damage, the staff is more for AOE and inhibiting movement really. It's my annoyance tool, then I switch over to scepter/focus or axe/scepter for single target damage. Plus once they're slowed I might drop a disease cloud, sacrifice a few minnies for explosions, or use utilities. So many choices XD
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis--- NZXT Phantom 410 Case Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Not sure why this new generation of gamers are so into this MOBA style of gaming for their MMO.
8 skills to chose from doesnt suddenly mean the game is deep and engaging. Less is more principal doesnt apply here. I remembe rhaving 50+ skills in everquest 2, even more then that in WoW, and Aion. Yet you want me to play a game for months, even years, knowng ill only have 8 skills to work with because there is some tactical element to it?
I wonder how well that is workng for guild wars 2...
It's working great and much better than I thought it would. In fact, FYI, thousands of people are using it right now as I type this! The game is a huge success! Not a single server has been closed in almost a year, and there are still players a plenty!
The limited action bar works perfectly imho!
Really? I just logged off from GW2.. I can never play that game longer then an hour.. I get so tired of the anti social Zerging.. I also get tired of hitting 1 2345, 2345, mob dies >> 1 2345 2345.. Same action no matter what or where I am.. The only time I have an variety is when I press "swap" weapons tab..
OH OH.. which by the way.. I freaking HATE having to constantly find my damn mouse to SHOW the computer where I want to place my AOE's.... OMFG.. Have you tried the Necro with a staff...... Buttons 2345 are ALL AOE's.. A royal pain ..
You're doing it wrong....You should never have to find your mouse I play a necro, with my AOEs cast in the place my mouse is....Tap button, it's cast instantly...You move and keep your mouse in sight at all times, moving with the mouse. One hand on mouse, ghosting the players, one hand on numbers and wasd. D tap for rolls.
I tried that option on my Grenade Engineer. What a horrible function. To the prior poster, if you think Necro is bad, try Grenades. You cant even hold a target. because you are constantly clicking around.
I found the best solution was to map my 1 button to my mouse thumb key and just get used to the timing. It works better than mouse clicking.
I've never had a problem, though I generally don't ever target a single player. I usually do AOE damage and have my setup for AOE damage, the staff is more for AOE and inhibiting movement really. It's my annoyance tool, then I switch over to scepter/focus or axe/scepter for single target damage. Plus once they're slowed I might drop a disease cloud, sacrifice a few minnies for explosions, or use utilities. So many choices XD
I don't see the point of this kind of mechanic of weapon swapping. You basically have access to all the abilities for your class, but to use them you have to swap weapons. The only difference it seems between having access to all the abilities at the same time and weapon swapping is you have to use a hotkey. I don't really see a difference except for that 1 extra step. It is the same strategy and tactics. Have to know when and what to use, but now you have to carry around more gear and hit an extra button lol.
Also, I've never liked a system where skills are based on weapons. I rather have the skills based on the class and some skills possibly require a particular type of weapon like backstab needing a dagger/piercer.
I don't see the point of this kind of mechanic of weapon swapping. You basically have access to all the abilities for your class, but to use them you have to swap weapons. The only difference it seems between having access to all the abilities at the same time and weapon swapping is you have to use a hotkey. I don't really see a difference except for that 1 extra step. It is the same strategy and tactics. Have to know when and what to use, but now you have to carry around more gear and hit an extra button lol.
Also, I've never liked a system where skills are based on weapons. I rather have the skills based on the class and some skills possibly require a particular type of weapon like backstab needing a dagger/piercer.
Think of it this way, you're still using 1-8.....Not holding alt or clt-alt and using 1-8.... It's really easy to use 1-8 and remember what you have bound and keep looking at the combat, where the players are...all that....When I have to manage six or seven bars...Alt, Ctrl, Ctrl-Alt, Shift....combined with 1-0....It's not easy to remember where all that shit is. And with a dodge mechanic and the need to constantly be moving to survive in Guild Wars 2 you really don't have your hands that open. But push ~ and your bars swap over instantly and keep using 1-8. It's just PVP and mobility friendly, you NEVER look at the bars. In combat games, if you stop moving...You're dead. Stop moving = dead.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis--- NZXT Phantom 410 Case Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Not sure why this new generation of gamers are so into this MOBA style of gaming for their MMO.
8 skills to chose from doesnt suddenly mean the game is deep and engaging. Less is more principal doesnt apply here. I remembe rhaving 50+ skills in everquest 2, even more then that in WoW, and Aion. Yet you want me to play a game for months, even years, knowng ill only have 8 skills to work with because there is some tactical element to it?
I wonder how well that is workng for guild wars 2...
It's working great and much better than I thought it would. In fact, FYI, thousands of people are using it right now as I type this! The game is a huge success! Not a single server has been closed in almost a year, and there are still players a plenty!
The limited action bar works perfectly imho!
Really? I just logged off from GW2.. I can never play that game longer then an hour.. I get so tired of the anti social Zerging.. I also get tired of hitting 1 2345, 2345, mob dies >> 1 2345 2345.. Same action no matter what or where I am.. The only time I have an variety is when I press "swap" weapons tab..
OH OH.. which by the way.. I freaking HATE having to constantly find my damn mouse to SHOW the computer where I want to place my AOE's.... OMFG.. Have you tried the Necro with a staff...... Buttons 2345 are ALL AOE's.. A royal pain ..
You're doing it wrong....You should never have to find your mouse I play a necro, with my AOEs cast in the place my mouse is....Tap button, it's cast instantly...You move and keep your mouse in sight at all times, moving with the mouse. One hand on mouse, ghosting the players, one hand on numbers and wasd. D tap for rolls.
I tried that option on my Grenade Engineer. What a horrible function. To the prior poster, if you think Necro is bad, try Grenades. You cant even hold a target. because you are constantly clicking around.
I found the best solution was to map my 1 button to my mouse thumb key and just get used to the timing. It works better than mouse clicking.
I've never had a problem, though I generally don't ever target a single player. I usually do AOE damage and have my setup for AOE damage, the staff is more for AOE and inhibiting movement really. It's my annoyance tool, then I switch over to scepter/focus or axe/scepter for single target damage. Plus once they're slowed I might drop a disease cloud, sacrifice a few minnies for explosions, or use utilities. So many choices XD
I only tried it like once. And one of the reasons I hated it was (as I recall) it was a global setting. So it was on or off for all toons at once. That's a no go. Not sure if that's changed.
Having 2 millions player logging in each week and playing an average of 508,428 hours pr day.
The playerbase plays an average of 15-20 minutes a day. They must have tons of fun playing this much!
I really wanted to like GW2 but the combat mechanics feels way to shallow to me. I played first at release for about a week but got really bored. Half a year later I gave it another try but got bored after a few days.
The limited amount of active abilities and what tactical use they might have is what worries me most.
I know the feeling. The exact same thing happened to me when I tried The Secret World (loved the atmosphere, setting, story, etc., but could'nt get past the combat (and I wish I could, because the giant mutate norse zombies with the crab claws was freakin' amazing, moreso than any other zombie design ever)
I don't necessarily mind the 4-weapon, 4-class setup. What bothers me is the limitation on the number of usable weapons by each class. While I understand, from a design standpoint, you don't want to design weapon skills for every class for every weapon; it does make it somewhat predictable. A Wizard using a dagger will always have access to a set number of abilities. That doesn't really add to much flavor.
With that being said I guess it depends heavily on how many skills you actually have access to for each weapon.
As far as the class skills go, I like their approach. This section allows you to customize with some of the skills from your other classes.
I'll reserve judgement though. No point in theorizing what the game is going to be like until SOE releases more information beyond what I saw in Vegas.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I don't necessarily mind the 4-weapon, 4-class setup. What bothers me is the limitation on the number of usable weapons by each class. While I understand, from a design standpoint, you don't want to design weapon skills for every class for every weapon; it does make it somewhat predictable. A Wizard using a dagger will always have access to a set number of abilities. That doesn't really add to much flavor.
With that being said I guess it depends heavily on how many skills you actually have access to for each weapon.
As far as the class skills go, I like their approach. This section allows you to customize with some of the skills from your other classes.
I'll reserve judgement though. No point in theorizing what the game is going to be like until SOE releases more information beyond what I saw in Vegas.
Remember, the game isn't even in alpha yet, so everything is bound to change.
Also, I think you are slightly misinformed. There aren't 4 classes, but 40, you only have access to 4 at the beginning and then get more as you progress. As for the weapons, I I would not be surprised that once you start multiclassing, you can try different weapon combinations (i.e. take one warrior weapon and use it in conjunction with a wizard weapon). I think the limit of "2 weapons per class" was only made to simplify the combat system and will not be so much as a limit once you start the multiclassing.
Of course, I could just be doing some wishful thinking, but again, not even in alpha yet.
I don't necessarily mind the 4-weapon, 4-class setup. What bothers me is the limitation on the number of usable weapons by each class. While I understand, from a design standpoint, you don't want to design weapon skills for every class for every weapon; it does make it somewhat predictable. A Wizard using a dagger will always have access to a set number of abilities. That doesn't really add to much flavor.
With that being said I guess it depends heavily on how many skills you actually have access to for each weapon.
As far as the class skills go, I like their approach. This section allows you to customize with some of the skills from your other classes.
I'll reserve judgement though. No point in theorizing what the game is going to be like until SOE releases more information beyond what I saw in Vegas.
Remember, the game isn't even in alpha yet, so everything is bound to change.
Also, I think you are slightly misinformed. There aren't 4 classes, but 40, you only have access to 4 at the beginning and then get more as you progress. As for the weapons, I I would not be surprised that once you start multiclassing, you can try different weapon combinations (i.e. take one warrior weapon and use it in conjunction with a wizard weapon). I think the limit of "2 weapons per class" was only made to simplify the combat system and will not be so much as a limit once you start the multiclassing.
Of course, I could just be doing some wishful thinking, but again, not even in alpha yet.
You get to choose from 8 classes at character creation.
The limit of two weapons per class was made so they could have unique animations and stances for each class so they could be distinguishable between each other.
I don't necessarily mind the 4-weapon, 4-class setup. What bothers me is the limitation on the number of usable weapons by each class. While I understand, from a design standpoint, you don't want to design weapon skills for every class for every weapon; it does make it somewhat predictable. A Wizard using a dagger will always have access to a set number of abilities. That doesn't really add to much flavor.
With that being said I guess it depends heavily on how many skills you actually have access to for each weapon.
As far as the class skills go, I like their approach. This section allows you to customize with some of the skills from your other classes.
I'll reserve judgement though. No point in theorizing what the game is going to be like until SOE releases more information beyond what I saw in Vegas.
Remember, the game isn't even in alpha yet, so everything is bound to change.
Also, I think you are slightly misinformed. There aren't 4 classes, but 40, you only have access to 4 at the beginning and then get more as you progress. As for the weapons, I I would not be surprised that once you start multiclassing, you can try different weapon combinations (i.e. take one warrior weapon and use it in conjunction with a wizard weapon). I think the limit of "2 weapons per class" was only made to simplify the combat system and will not be so much as a limit once you start the multiclassing.
Of course, I could just be doing some wishful thinking, but again, not even in alpha yet.
4 weapon skills, 4 class skills. Don't misunderstand my post as "4-classes".
2nd: Based on what they said in the class panel, the 4 weapon skills will be restricted to ONLY the class you currently are. They currently have no plans to allow different weapon skill combinations. That is where the 4-class skills come in play. Those can be 4 skills from 1 class, or 1 skill from 4 different classes.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Comments
There are no levels. So a starting wizard and one that has been playing for awhile will have access to the same weapon abilities, IF they chose the same weapon at creation. If the long playing wizard has found/unlocked other wizard weapons, then they will have more avenues to choose from.
Yes a wizard could choose a character ability from an unlocked rogue or warrior class, IF the wizard class has a character ability slot type like that of a rogue or warrior. Example; you are a wizard and you want to run faster, the rogue might have a movement character ability while the warrior does not, therefor you would be limited to choosing a movement ability from the rogue. Example 2; if both the rogue and warrior had a movement ability, then you could choose either of those character movement abilities. What you can't do is take a warrior defensive ability and put it into a movement character slot.
So how would you do it?
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
'cause everyone thinks they're right,
And nobody thinks that there just might
Be more than one road to our final destination--
I agree, and according to the poll at this point, so do the majority of people that voted. If the 8 skills system will deliver engaging combat, I think it will be more appealing to players than having 25 weak or highly situational skills that are hardly worth putting on your hotbar.
Make no mistake, the 8 key hotbar is a design decision based on the PS4, as it was in DCUO for the PS3. As long as they improve some of the shortcomings of the DCUO combat system, such as duplicative specials and "clipping" as a design choice (when they either could not or would not bother to fix the bug that caused clipping), then combat should be exciting for those that enjoy twitch-based combat.
If you HAVE to have two hotbars filled with abilities, or you are not a fan of more twitch oriented combat, then this game will most likely not be for you. I'm in favor of this kind of combat. Unfortunately, I'm not into the whole fantasy scene, and I'm definitely not into anything related to SOE, so I'm out. That said, I hope this game succeeds. It shows that SOE may have finally realized that some of the qualities of yesteryear from games like SWG should not have been so quickly abandoned in favor of trying to copy the WoW model. If the game is successful, it will prompt other companies to again consider things like true open-world environments and exploration, along with newer features.
All skills would be interchangeable. No weapon specific skills, just skills that require a certain weapon to function properly.
I know that we want to find some type of common ground with levels, so we all feel comfortable, and so that we don't think this game is a skill progression game vs a level progression game. But I completely disagree that tiers=levels.
You have to get x number of experience points to "level" up, which normally takes a set amount of time grinding away at quests or mobs etc. Each class that is unlocked is a unique experience that could take an hour or 1 min. These tiers are just different stages of the power, but they DO NOT equate to the same time sink that levels did. There is no working on the tiers, either you unlock it or you don't, and the way you unlock it is by playing the game, not by being led around by some linear quest line that finally gives you a "ding".
Yes tiers will be a time sink, but it will be a different experience while going through the time sink.
Also they refer to tiers in 2 different manners, the tiers of player power and the tiers of the world. So when they mention tiers we really have to pay attention to what tier they mean. A new character at creation will have 4 weapon ability slots and 4 character ability slots, now I'm assuming that they will have abilities that fill those slots right at creation, so we as players have at least 8 basic abilities at creation. Then it is up to us as players to go adventuring in the world, and along the way we might help an old man (aka the wizard) or help some orcs. When we have helped either group it may open up an avenue to automatically get a new "tier" of power or class; we don't have to wait until we go "ding" to get our new ability. The difference is that I could meet the old man within minutes of character creation or it might take 6 months.
I actually think some people may get frustrated with the system, not because they don't like it, but because the random factor will not be in their favor. Imagine that I started a character the same day as person B; and in a months time I had found 15 different classes that I unlocked, while person B only found 1 more. So after 1 month I have 16 classes to pick and choose from when person B only has 2. How will that make person B feel; they've been playing the same amount of time, but they just didn't explore the same places as I did, and they haven't been fortunate enough to come upon encounters that unlocked new classes. The random nature of the "tiers" or class unlocks is going to be a double edged sword. Without knowing when you will level next, there is knowing when you will get your next skill. Some people will love this new system, some will hate it because they can't plan for and go to x,y,z coordinates and get their new unlock.
If this is true, I will not play. Hate button mashers and having so limited number of button is just other word for button mashing.
Left otherwise good game TSW exclusively because of that 7 buttuns limit.
And more console revenue.
Think the thread officially ended there. No amount of QQ is likely to effect a change.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
So much acrimony in this thread. It seems like so few are willing to look at things from multiple points of view. Those that are confident in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are not disappointed. Those who are disappointed in SOE's unknown direction, I hope you are pleasantly surprised. I was always one for gray areas of aspiration built around expressed concerns.
I will admit that I am slightly worried by the limitation of eight skills. However, eight useful action oriented skills, admittedly, are all that most games utilize with regard to combat. Naturally, much of my disappointment hails from having less room for uncommonly used, highly situational skills that often distinguishes players with excellent timing and good execution. With fewer skills combat, battle becomes significantly more about the button mashing and no situational brilliance in which to flourish.
An example of this can potentially be found within the earlier years of games - likely within the commonly evoked, World of Warcraft. Some of you may recall Vurtne (his videos, notably http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bgggKMvQU, are worth a watch for nostalgia if anything), a Mage who was brilliant at abusing situational skills that were available during vanilla (reflect on Death Coils, Ice Blocked falls or incoming kill skills, cheap AoEs to break stealth, Flame Ward reflects, cheap speedcast slows, well thrown grenades to disrupt heals / important skills, Will of the Forsakening out of fears, etc. etc.) to handle multitudes of people simultaneously. I think that one of the primary reasons people are apprehensive about having so few skills available are not due to the playability of base content, but for distinction in combat (notably against other players who likely chose similar skillsets due to min/maxing). Although 8 skills will give you a competent PvE/PvP dps rotation that will operate perfectly, it will not grant the situational brilliance and awareness that many "greats" use to distinguish their selves from others. I managed a fortunate dueling record on my Tera Sorcerer - but, with only 8 skills I think most of my victories would have fallen to RNG rather than skill, as most of my them were achieved with clever timing on situational abilities and awareness. I could say the same for a number of my characters throughout various MMOs in history.
That being said, my secondary disappointment, and I feel that other old-school gamers may suffer from this as well, stems from a similar motivation but with regards to non-combat oriented skills. Part of the joy of original EverQuest were a number of spells sheerly for entertainment purposes and class uniqueness. I suppose with the rampant expectancy to change classes consistently it will not even be a viable factor; a disappointment in its self-absence. In original EverQuest certain classes had abilities that were useful for situational utility and amusement. I remember rapidly placing myself under a Dark Elf Illusion on my High Elf Enchanter because a group of kill-on-sight guards roamed by me from Neriak. The quick utility made me smile. There were many illusory spells, players could turn themselves into almost any mobile creature in the game, or even an inanimate object if wanted. It allowed players to infiltrate a number of dangerous areas. After teleporting players on my Druid, I used to turn them in wolves them for playful whimsy. Everyone loved being a wolf for a while, even if it made guards want to chop them into steaks. Magicians could summon tons of useful little items from food, water, to even light sources, while Necromancers could cast a spell that let them talk through their pet (what fun!). These little things not only added to individuality, but were nifty little utility / entertainment skills to add immersion to the world (read: "lookie what I can do!"). I escorted an evil Troll friend of mine through Qeynos via Invisibility spells once. I sort of see the limitation of four class oriented skills / spells as a means by which non-combat entertainment or immersion oriented skills will be eliminated, and that makes me sad just because I loved having them convenient for utility or personal amusement outside of combat.
In closing, I do wish to state that the 8 skill slots will function for the gameplay, because the gameplay is being designed around it - people do not need to worry about limited slots leaving them in deficiency against mobs or players. However, there is a sensible fear that the ability to readily outshine others will be significantly hindered since mobility is fairly easy to replicate and losing situational skills will reduce the ability to display excellence of skill use (knowing to hit X instead of Y at the right second), rather than pre-determined skill choice (having X on your bar beforehand instead of Y). Essentially, stifled mechanics tend to result in faulty divergence between competent players, grand players, and terrible players, because a face-roll becomes an oddly valid strategy. Finally, there may be a lack of "soul" to classes, so to speak with their individual entertainment skills removed. Bear in mind that much of this conjecture based on SOE's explanations of the combat system and they very well may find a means of balancing this delicate design to please everyone. The odds of it are slim, but at this point... no one can say for certain.
I hope things turn out better than the conclusions being drawn. I strongly suggest SOE part their tight lips and grand some insightful wisdom to us all.
Always a pleasure.
You're doing it wrong....You should never have to find your mouse
I play a necro, with my AOEs cast in the place my mouse is....Tap button, it's cast instantly...You move and keep your mouse in sight at all times, moving with the mouse. One hand on mouse, ghosting the players, one hand on numbers and wasd. D tap for rolls.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Except a lot of those situational skills are now baked into the 8 skills you pick, by giving you temp buffs and effects. In Guild Wars 2 it's common also that your skills change as you use them, one skill rolling into another and granting mobility and some kind of useful buff. So then it's more about timing and saving the skill so it's not on cooldown. That's what I've found at least, and it works.
However I'll agree that it's sad they don't make lore spells anymore, or cantrips, or class specific spells. Or even race specific spells like how Undead Priests had their own unholy spells in WoW. I've always like playing a Wizard in DnD3.5 mostly for the diversity and enormous spell book, and some if not most of my useful spells have always been the social cantrips that let you hear underneath doors or translate any text.....Set alarms around the camp ect ect
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
I tried that option on my Grenade Engineer. What a horrible function. To the prior poster, if you think Necro is bad, try Grenades. You cant even hold a target. because you are constantly clicking around.
I found the best solution was to map my 1 button to my mouse thumb key and just get used to the timing. It works better than mouse clicking.
I've never had a problem, though I generally don't ever target a single player. I usually do AOE damage and have my setup for AOE damage, the staff is more for AOE and inhibiting movement really. It's my annoyance tool, then I switch over to scepter/focus or axe/scepter for single target damage. Plus once they're slowed I might drop a disease cloud, sacrifice a few minnies for explosions, or use utilities. So many choices XD
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
I don't see the point of this kind of mechanic of weapon swapping. You basically have access to all the abilities for your class, but to use them you have to swap weapons. The only difference it seems between having access to all the abilities at the same time and weapon swapping is you have to use a hotkey. I don't really see a difference except for that 1 extra step. It is the same strategy and tactics. Have to know when and what to use, but now you have to carry around more gear and hit an extra button lol.
Also, I've never liked a system where skills are based on weapons. I rather have the skills based on the class and some skills possibly require a particular type of weapon like backstab needing a dagger/piercer.
Think of it this way, you're still using 1-8.....Not holding alt or clt-alt and using 1-8.... It's really easy to use 1-8 and remember what you have bound and keep looking at the combat, where the players are...all that....When I have to manage six or seven bars...Alt, Ctrl, Ctrl-Alt, Shift....combined with 1-0....It's not easy to remember where all that shit is. And with a dodge mechanic and the need to constantly be moving to survive in Guild Wars 2 you really don't have your hands that open. But push ~ and your bars swap over instantly and keep using 1-8. It's just PVP and mobility friendly, you NEVER look at the bars. In combat games, if you stop moving...You're dead. Stop moving = dead.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
I only tried it like once. And one of the reasons I hated it was (as I recall) it was a global setting. So it was on or off for all toons at once. That's a no go. Not sure if that's changed.
I know the feeling. The exact same thing happened to me when I tried The Secret World (loved the atmosphere, setting, story, etc., but could'nt get past the combat (and I wish I could, because the giant mutate norse zombies with the crab claws was freakin' amazing, moreso than any other zombie design ever)
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
I don't necessarily mind the 4-weapon, 4-class setup. What bothers me is the limitation on the number of usable weapons by each class. While I understand, from a design standpoint, you don't want to design weapon skills for every class for every weapon; it does make it somewhat predictable. A Wizard using a dagger will always have access to a set number of abilities. That doesn't really add to much flavor.
With that being said I guess it depends heavily on how many skills you actually have access to for each weapon.
As far as the class skills go, I like their approach. This section allows you to customize with some of the skills from your other classes.
I'll reserve judgement though. No point in theorizing what the game is going to be like until SOE releases more information beyond what I saw in Vegas.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Remember, the game isn't even in alpha yet, so everything is bound to change.
Also, I think you are slightly misinformed. There aren't 4 classes, but 40, you only have access to 4 at the beginning and then get more as you progress. As for the weapons, I I would not be surprised that once you start multiclassing, you can try different weapon combinations (i.e. take one warrior weapon and use it in conjunction with a wizard weapon). I think the limit of "2 weapons per class" was only made to simplify the combat system and will not be so much as a limit once you start the multiclassing.
Of course, I could just be doing some wishful thinking, but again, not even in alpha yet.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
You get to choose from 8 classes at character creation.
The limit of two weapons per class was made so they could have unique animations and stances for each class so they could be distinguishable between each other.
4 weapon skills, 4 class skills. Don't misunderstand my post as "4-classes".
2nd: Based on what they said in the class panel, the 4 weapon skills will be restricted to ONLY the class you currently are. They currently have no plans to allow different weapon skill combinations. That is where the 4-class skills come in play. Those can be 4 skills from 1 class, or 1 skill from 4 different classes.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring