Originally posted by Elikal I NEVER understood why people attacked the Trinity. It works. Like the wheel. Why re-invent it just "we had enough of it"? It doesn't make sense to me. No other system EVER made teamwork and cooperation as meaningful as the Trinity. Period.
A wheel is a great solution of you want to steer a car. Not so great if you want to steer a helicopter. As long as noone even attempts to make something else than a wheel, we're just going to continue driving cars, and never get to fly a helicopter. It's likely the first few attempts at getting the helicopter to fly are going to lead to spectacular crashes. You're proposing we should just stop trying. I don't agree with that stance, that's all.
But, then they might actually have to pay attention, know how to play their class, and not be terribad?
DPS tends to draw in the "wheee pew pew big numbers and phat loots!" types.
They could use a lesson or two in patience, IMO.
Is it a lack of patience to not want to waste the time you have to play not playing? I don't think so. If I have two hours to play during a sitting, why would I want to spend an hour of it looking for a proper group? I don't think it's really hard to understand what the problem with that would be, and it's certainly not an issue of patience.
I don't think there's much wrong with trinity systems, I've always enjoyed it in an MMO along with turn-based combat, yet I don't think it's absence is a negative for a game in an of itself. There are certainly other systems that work. SWG was never really a trinity based game, and it was one of my favorite MMOs.
The worst thing about trinity is the elitist attitude that comes along with it (displayed above in red).
I don't think it's necessarily patience either. I think the problem is as follows:
DPS builds are universal. Players who roll DPS for PVE can pretty much do and go where ever they want. Solo, large groups, small groups, raids, for the most part, it doesn't matter. It's easy to transition from Questing, to dungeons, to raids as long as you don't try to skip over the normal progression. You are effective as you are.
But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way. Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.
It's not so much a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.
What you are pointing out is a flaw in level-based design and not one directly related to the trinity or even dedicated roles in combat. What you bring up is certainly an issue, but its roots lie outside the design and mechanics of the trinity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.
Every tranditional dungeon/raid MMO I've played has had groups of players that were very sucessful with non-standard builds. They don't tend to be the fastest at zooming through the content because they can't reference an "online play book." The trinity is familiar, easy all you need to do is watch the youtube, read the notes and you too can complete the content.
But, then they might actually have to pay attention, know how to play their class, and not be terribad?
DPS tends to draw in the "wheee pew pew big numbers and phat loots!" types.
They could use a lesson or two in patience, IMO.
Is it a lack of patience to not want to waste the time you have to play not playing? I don't think so. If I have two hours to play during a sitting, why would I want to spend an hour of it looking for a proper group? I don't think it's really hard to understand what the problem with that would be, and it's certainly not an issue of patience.
I don't think there's much wrong with trinity systems, I've always enjoyed it in an MMO along with turn-based combat, yet I don't think it's absence is a negative for a game in an of itself. There are certainly other systems that work. SWG was never really a trinity based game, and it was one of my favorite MMOs.
The worst thing about trinity is the elitist attitude that comes along with it (displayed above in red).
I don't think it's necessarily patience either. I think the problem is as follows:
DPS builds are universal. Players who roll DPS for PVE can pretty much do and go where ever they want. Solo, large groups, small groups, raids, for the most part, it doesn't matter. It's easy to transition from Questing, to dungeons, to raids as long as you don't try to skip over the normal progression. You are effective as you are.
But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way. Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.
It's not so much a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.
What you are pointing out is a flaw in level-based design and not one directly related to the trinity or even dedicated roles in combat. What you bring up is certainly an issue, but its roots lie outside the design and mechanics of the trinity.
Sure, It may be mechanically outside the trinity, but it is still a big part of why people are asking for a system. And maybe if that issue was addressed, it might help with games that do use the Trinity system.
Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.
It's not so much a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.
That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.
What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.
Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.
SWG had traditional dungeons like the Warren, The Vette, Lord Nyax's stronghold and the death watch bunker. There was no real need for trinity based groups there either. Many were self efficient in SWG, healing themselves, tanking and dpsing at the same time etc.., . It was truly a system where you had to be accountable for your own self. Yet It didn't cause any real issue or chaos in dungeons.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.
It's a ridiculous question because the combat mechanics are designed to fit the mobs mechanics. That's like asking what cars are good for driving on railroad tracks.
To answer the question, of the MMOs without taunt mechanics, here is some similar raid-like group content:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Some players actually enjoy the challenge. I guess I'm one of them. And some developers (like the ones I've listed), not only think it's okay to have more realistic AI, they actually think it's fun.
The Player's Perception part, is a part of all game aspects, not just AI. It's basically what all good designers do to try and mask the limitations a game has. As AI is still very much in it's early years, it has many flaws. And thus, good designers try and design their games in ways that minimize the ways in which those flaws are visible. Last of Us is a good example of this. There are parts in the game where you quite clearly can see some of the AI limitations, but the game is done well enough that they aren't happening every few minutes, and they don't happen long enough to pull you out of the game.
In order for the AI to be becoming stupider, you're going to have to give examples of older games with more robust AI. I can't think of a single one. Even RTS games have been improving. ALL AI is programmed off a series of states & conditions. That 'throw a grenade' code is part of it. And in games like GW2 AND The Last of Us, those conditions go beyond a simple 'throw grenade now!' code. There are weighted conditions.
For example:
GW2:
- Threat is weighed amongst a number of conditions:
Who has the most thoughness, is doing the most damage, has the least health, is closest to the target, is reviving someone, is currently visible. Certain criteria (like toughness, damage, and health) is weighed more heavily than the others. And all are constantly being measured during a fight. Which is why you will occasionally see someone get hit out of nowhere, when they least expect it. Someone's health drops below other group members, while they are still out damaging the others, and BAM they are now the prime target. That's just one example.
Last of Us:
- Enemies act differently based on type:
Some are much more sensitive to sound, and will aggressively charge in that direction, but are bad about patrolling (clickers).
Some enemies have very small awareness ranges, but once tripped are very difficult to lose (runners).
Some enemies will actively flank you, will call out when they hear strange noises, will flush you out of hiding
Granted, a lot of that AI tech was in development since the first Uncharted game, but that's how smart companies implement robust features with limited resources.
- Soren maks a lot of good points, but I think you're confusing quite a few of them. For starters, he's not just talking about AI in games. He's comparing perfect AI to video game AI. You can't take that comparison and then make it only about implemented game AI. I know that AI has been developed (like deep blue), to be extremely efficient. There's even a web test used by certain AI programmers that attempts to simulate actual human behavior (and does a fairly convincing job of it).
And then there is AI that's actually been implemented in game design. Included in that statement (when you talk about AI getting dumber), is him referring to AI as it gets applied to games. Else you essentially have AI that 'cheats', and works on perfect information that an actual player wouldn't have.
That doesn't mean that Command & Conquer had better AI than Starcraft II, that Thief had more sophisticated AI than Last of Us, that Doom had better AI than Half Life 2, or that EQ had more sophisticated AI than GW2.
Enjoying challenge has nothing to do with smart AI. Are you suggesting that because Geometry Wars 2 has a deterministic AI (completely predictable) that scoring as high as this player is easy? Nonsense.
What "realistic AI" games do you think you've played? Last of Us?
Tactics (decision-making): Animation quality notwithstanding, the tactical decisions of Last of Us' monsters aren't any better or worse than similar games of the last decade. They don't outflank you in clever ways, and they make the eternal AI mistake of always leaving part of their body visible around cover to be noticed and/or shot.
Zombies (player perception): many AI programmers go out of their way to mention zombie games specifically as being something that's easier to do AI programming for. It goes back to player perception, since the expectation is zombies are dumb -- so instead of immediately saying to yourself, "Wow that's one retarded SWAT team member," you end up saying "Haha, stupid zombie!" It's a significant advantage. It redirects player criticism from the code to the zombie.
AI Variety: A variety of AIs doesn't make them smarter. You may notice I refer to AI as a puzzle -- well AI variety is more puzzles, and who doesn't like more puzzles!
As for AI becoming stupider, it's ironically the very thing that causes players to think it's smarter! HL1's AI had a basic understanding of surroundings and how to flank the player. FEAR's AI was nearly identical in this regard, but it was praised by players far more than HL1's AI. Why? Because FEAR's AI announced what it was doing more often, which let the player perceive that they were attempting to flank him.
Why is that stupider? Well what SWAT team do you think is going to be more successful: the one that announces every single tactical move it makes and chatters constantly to reveal its location, or the one that uses a minimal amount of chatter?
So FEAR's AI is actually stupider, even though playersfeel like(and often say) it's smarter. It's good smoke and mirrors, because stupider AI or not, the players think you did something amazing (which means you did something amazing.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.
It's not so much a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.
That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.
What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.
That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.
Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.
It's a ridiculous question because the combat mechanics are designed to fit the mobs mechanics. That's like asking what cars are good for driving on railroad tracks.
To answer the question, of the MMOs without taunt mechanics, here is some similar raid-like group content:
Originally posted by ThomasN7 ArenaNet started it because saying the holy trinity is bad was a way to sell their game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the holy trinity of mmos. MMOs fail because of bad vision, bad game design and publishers sticking their noses in where it doesn't belong just to meet a quarterly earnings report.
Good points. Also keep in mind that AN has always tried to be as different from WoW as humanly possible. Even to the point of nonsense. The threat dynamic made sense for its time, and also made fights manageable. But it also tended to make them both more simple and complex. It made the role of tank easier, but it also made the design of the fights more complex, as well as limiting.
But as a side effect, it also made good tanks and healers very, VERY important for group content. Which lead to prima donna syndrome with many of both classes, and the negatives that go with that.
People who keep quoting smart AI are really advocating dumb or scripted AI. If a boss was programmed with the smartest AI you would not defeat it other than bringing more players than it can kill. What you are really pining for is some "pretend" non trinity thru scripted AI so you "feel" like its not trinity. Trinity exists because if you make a boss smart you will die. It has nothing to do with game age. Take the threat table of Ragnaros and see how many guilds would of defeated it. Making a boss defeatable isnt smart AI it's gimped AI.
Using gw2 boss fights as examples is embarrassing. They are zergs de tuned such that the boss dies before 5 players.
Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.
It's not so much a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.
That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.
What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.
That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.
Wrong. And specially as a tank, since your queue time will be quasi non-existent.
Wrong, as a tank, you ARE going to run heroics as DPS and slowly gather your tanking gear as you can so that you can continue to collect your dungeon tokens for raid gear while you do it.
The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs. You can go back to Pen and Paper games. You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve. The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.
The reason I think you see all the hate is because the Trinity has become end all be all in MMOs in the past decade or so. The Trinity used to be the foundation for a group. Now, the Trinity typically is the group. You don't see support classes in many games anymore. Rift kind of had it and is moving back to it again. If you look back at a lot of the older games (Everquest 1, DAOC, Shadowbane, etc.), you'll see that there were numerous classes that did not fit well into the Tank, Healer, DPS paradigm. Yet, this is where the term Trinity was popularized.
I played a Shaman for most of my time in Everquest. I didn't do a whole lot of damage. I didn't do a whole lot of healing. I couldn't tank at all. However, I was one of the most sought after classes in the game for groups because of the support I brought in terms of debuffs and buffs along with some damage and some healing. You don't see that anymore in MMOs much. You also don't see hybrids. It seems like in today's games, hybrid means you can do multiple roles equally well just not at the same time.
I think the best way to address the issue is to expand the number of group roles available and make every class a hybrid.
But, then they might actually have to pay attention, know how to play their class, and not be terribad?
DPS tends to draw in the "wheee pew pew big numbers and phat loots!" types.
They could use a lesson or two in patience, IMO.
Is it a lack of patience to not want to waste the time you have to play not playing? I don't think so. If I have two hours to play during a sitting, why would I want to spend an hour of it looking for a proper group? I don't think it's really hard to understand what the problem with that would be, and it's certainly not an issue of patience.
I don't think there's much wrong with trinity systems, I've always enjoyed it in an MMO along with turn-based combat, yet I don't think it's absence is a negative for a game in an of itself. There are certainly other systems that work. SWG was never really a trinity based game, and it was one of my favorite MMOs.
The worst thing about trinity is the elitist attitude that comes along with it (displayed above in red).
I don't think it's necessarily patience either. I think the problem is as follows:
DPS builds are universal. Players who roll DPS for PVE can pretty much do and go where ever they want. Solo, large groups, small groups, raids, for the most part, it doesn't matter. It's easy to transition from Questing, to dungeons, to raids as long as you don't try to skip over the normal progression. You are effective as you are.
But now when we get into other builds, now comes the trade offs. You want to tank or heal? You need to be top geared all the time. So, basically, you can't just decide you want to level a tank or a healer. Let's put aside the fact that they are traditionally more painful to level to begin with. It's still pointless to "level up" that way. Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.
It's not so much a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.
Definitely well said.
While some gamers do have low patience (or attention spans), the thing about DPS rolls is that they apply equally to all aspects of a Trinity Based game. The same cannot be said for tanks or healers. Tanks, while necessary for dungeon / raid content, are typically useless in PvP, and have a harder time soloing. Healers, while not having it quite as bad (everyone loves a pocket heal), still generally have a harder time soloing (which is why a lot of games started giving them DPS specs).
Furthermore, like you say, DPS classes typically have the most lenient gear reqs. Only in the most finely tuned DPS race encounters does having sub-par gear make much of a difference, and those are few & far between.
The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs. You can go back to Pen and Paper games. You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve. The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.
This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Can anyone list an example of an MMORPG that has the traditional dungeons and organized raids that was successfully able to break from the Trinity? It's not a rhetorical question. I am not aware of any but it doesn't mean they don't exist. I want to know.
It's a ridiculous question because the combat mechanics are designed to fit the mobs mechanics. That's like asking what cars are good for driving on railroad tracks.
To answer the question, of the MMOs without taunt mechanics, here is some similar raid-like group content:
What's ridiculous was that bad analogy. Distopia answered the question without having to drive on railroad tracks.
Sorry it pained you so. Hopefully those links helped you out.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Unlike DPS where you can just transition from quested gear to dungeon gear, tanks cannot do this. If you want to tank dungeons, you need to have the dungeon gear 1st. So guess what? You have to run the dungeons 1st as DPS and slowly collect tanking gear as it comes. But even then you can't roll on tank gear unless the tank doesn't want it.
It's not so much a "patience" issue, as much as it's the "Can't get there from here" issue.
That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.
What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.
That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.
Wrong. And specially as a tank, since your queue time will be quasi non-existent.
Wrong, as a tank, you ARE going to run heroics as DPS and slowly gather your tanking gear as you can so that you can continue to collect your dungeon tokens for raid gear while you do it.
Well, you can't fool me on this since I'm still playing the game at the moment. Maybe you do it wrong, or just think it works that way, fact is that in game, it doesn't work that way at all, and doing normals to gear up works just fine.
Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.
You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.
Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.
You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.
Please, stop the nonsense. With the way loot drops work now in WoW, if you really played the game right now, you should know this is a non-issue. My take is that you don't play the game at all, or at least not as a fresh max level tank.
I don't need to prove you wrong... you are simply wrong. Any person who really plays WOW right now as a max level tank knows it. If your only escape from having to admit you've been wrong is to post such nonsense, then so be it, I'm all for making other people feel better when I can. Here are 3 pints for you:
EDIT and PS: I'm going to do you a favor and link this thread:
Notice the pre-heroic 5 man pieces? Notice the "crafted" part? You can buy your tank gear right off the AH as soon as you hit max level, or just craft it yourself. Just like a DPS.
Aaaand it continues.
Somehow trading one grind for another somehow magically makes the Tank's gear requirements less than DPS to get into the same content.
I'm not even going to get into posting a link to Tank gear requirements in WoW that's a year old. (Did you really just do that?)
A problem of the class trinity was that it required classes/builds that are by itself just unfun to play. Playing a healer or tank outside of group content felt like a waste of time. Rift tried to sidestep the problem with it respec-fest when otherwise it stuck to the EQ/WoW formula.
Still the most fun was bulldozing a mission in City of Heroes/Villains when any proper build would contribute to the group and it would often just work, often with no healer or classic tank.
The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs. You can go back to Pen and Paper games. You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve. The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.
This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.
Nope, I'm not confused at all.
I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous. It was boring to no end.
I made no statement regarding a combat system. You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity. Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system. That's utterly false. DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat. Your premise is flawed.
Presumably...someone trying to market something other?
How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Presumably...someone trying to market something other?
How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?
Someone had to cater to those people who sucked so bad that they couldn't get into raids or when they did the groups fell apart and reformed when they were gone.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs. You can go back to Pen and Paper games. You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve. The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.
This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.
Nope, I'm not confused at all.
I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous. It was boring to no end.
I made no statement regarding a combat system. You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity. Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system. That's utterly false. DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat. Your premise is flawed.
Eh... Tank can exist two ways: Either it uses a taunt system, or it exploits an underdeveloped AI. Do you remember Baldur's Gate? -In that game, there was no taunt system and the monsters would attack the first thing they saw. Thing is, they never switched targets so you always put your tank forward to "get aggro" and then proceed to kill the mobs with your other characters.
Bioware didn't change the AI until Throne of Bhaal. It made the game extremely easy - much like other trinity games.
The class design and structure in GW1 was well ahead of its time, but I get if if you come from a background of only knowing the trinity and nothing else, then it might look a bit confusing and chaotic at times. For me, we never had a "tank" when we played PnP RPGs, and I never liked the mechanic in computer RPGs (including MMOs), so GW1 felt like an oasis of good combat in the middle of a vast desert.
The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Presumably...someone trying to market something other?
How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?
Someone had to cater to those people who sucked so bad that they couldn't get into raids or when they did the groups fell apart and reformed when they were gone.
Which unfortunately is a massive population and hence end up steering the direction of games due to their financial weighting. Games are really only fun in the early adopter stage. Once they become "cool" and all the Joe and Judy averages turn up things go to shit.
Comments
A wheel is a great solution of you want to steer a car. Not so great if you want to steer a helicopter. As long as noone even attempts to make something else than a wheel, we're just going to continue driving cars, and never get to fly a helicopter. It's likely the first few attempts at getting the helicopter to fly are going to lead to spectacular crashes. You're proposing we should just stop trying. I don't agree with that stance, that's all.
What you are pointing out is a flaw in level-based design and not one directly related to the trinity or even dedicated roles in combat. What you bring up is certainly an issue, but its roots lie outside the design and mechanics of the trinity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Every tranditional dungeon/raid MMO I've played has had groups of players that were very sucessful with non-standard builds. They don't tend to be the fastest at zooming through the content because they can't reference an "online play book." The trinity is familiar, easy all you need to do is watch the youtube, read the notes and you too can complete the content.
Sure, It may be mechanically outside the trinity, but it is still a big part of why people are asking for a system. And maybe if that issue was addressed, it might help with games that do use the Trinity system.
That way of aquiring tank gear is compleletly unlike anything i've ever encountered. Our tanks would collect all the tank gear from the instances they were geard for, that would then be enough to start doing the next higher tier, where you would get the next tier of tank gear in the process... etc. You always run one tier of content to get geared for the next tier. That was the design for all roles, not just tanks and healers. Quite the opposite, rolling for "off-spec" was usually discouraged, unless noone really needed the drop.
What you described there just never was considered the norm in any of the MMOs I played in 15 years.
SWG had traditional dungeons like the Warren, The Vette, Lord Nyax's stronghold and the death watch bunker. There was no real need for trinity based groups there either. Many were self efficient in SWG, healing themselves, tanking and dpsing at the same time etc.., . It was truly a system where you had to be accountable for your own self. Yet It didn't cause any real issue or chaos in dungeons.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's a ridiculous question because the combat mechanics are designed to fit the mobs mechanics. That's like asking what cars are good for driving on railroad tracks.
To answer the question, of the MMOs without taunt mechanics, here is some similar raid-like group content:
Puzzle Pirates - Island skellies
EVE Online - Incursions
Asheron's Call - Gaerlan Citadel
Ultima Online - Champion spawns
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Enjoying challenge has nothing to do with smart AI. Are you suggesting that because Geometry Wars 2 has a deterministic AI (completely predictable) that scoring as high as this player is easy? Nonsense.
What "realistic AI" games do you think you've played? Last of Us?
As for AI becoming stupider, it's ironically the very thing that causes players to think it's smarter! HL1's AI had a basic understanding of surroundings and how to flank the player. FEAR's AI was nearly identical in this regard, but it was praised by players far more than HL1's AI. Why? Because FEAR's AI announced what it was doing more often, which let the player perceive that they were attempting to flank him.
Why is that stupider? Well what SWAT team do you think is going to be more successful: the one that announces every single tactical move it makes and chatters constantly to reveal its location, or the one that uses a minimal amount of chatter?
So FEAR's AI is actually stupider, even though players feel like (and often say) it's smarter. It's good smoke and mirrors, because stupider AI or not, the players think you did something amazing (which means you did something amazing.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That worked back in the days of Vanilla/TBC WoW (Or other games of that period) TBC had it set up so that in the upper 60s, the quest chains would end with a quested blue item around QL90-100. This was fine for non heroic dungeons. But that's when progression was important. But now, in the rush rush endgame grind dungeons till your eyes bleed, it's not that easy. Nobody does non heroics. You have to be geared as a tank. And geared well in order to even start.
What's ridiculous was that bad analogy. Distopia answered the question without having to drive on railroad tracks.
Good points. Also keep in mind that AN has always tried to be as different from WoW as humanly possible. Even to the point of nonsense. The threat dynamic made sense for its time, and also made fights manageable. But it also tended to make them both more simple and complex. It made the role of tank easier, but it also made the design of the fights more complex, as well as limiting.
But as a side effect, it also made good tanks and healers very, VERY important for group content. Which lead to prima donna syndrome with many of both classes, and the negatives that go with that.
People who keep quoting smart AI are really advocating dumb or scripted AI. If a boss was programmed with the smartest AI you would not defeat it other than bringing more players than it can kill. What you are really pining for is some "pretend" non trinity thru scripted AI so you "feel" like its not trinity. Trinity exists because if you make a boss smart you will die. It has nothing to do with game age. Take the threat table of Ragnaros and see how many guilds would of defeated it. Making a boss defeatable isnt smart AI it's gimped AI.
Using gw2 boss fights as examples is embarrassing. They are zergs de tuned such that the boss dies before 5 players.
Wrong, as a tank, you ARE going to run heroics as DPS and slowly gather your tanking gear as you can so that you can continue to collect your dungeon tokens for raid gear while you do it.
The Trinity exists and has existed since before MMORPGs. You can go back to Pen and Paper games. You don't HAVE to have a tank, healer, and someone who can bring the pain, but if you don't have each of these roles, your group is inherently limited in what it can achieve. The Trinity exists because specialization is generally superior to non-specialization.
The reason I think you see all the hate is because the Trinity has become end all be all in MMOs in the past decade or so. The Trinity used to be the foundation for a group. Now, the Trinity typically is the group. You don't see support classes in many games anymore. Rift kind of had it and is moving back to it again. If you look back at a lot of the older games (Everquest 1, DAOC, Shadowbane, etc.), you'll see that there were numerous classes that did not fit well into the Tank, Healer, DPS paradigm. Yet, this is where the term Trinity was popularized.
I played a Shaman for most of my time in Everquest. I didn't do a whole lot of damage. I didn't do a whole lot of healing. I couldn't tank at all. However, I was one of the most sought after classes in the game for groups because of the support I brought in terms of debuffs and buffs along with some damage and some healing. You don't see that anymore in MMOs much. You also don't see hybrids. It seems like in today's games, hybrid means you can do multiple roles equally well just not at the same time.
I think the best way to address the issue is to expand the number of group roles available and make every class a hybrid.
Definitely well said.
While some gamers do have low patience (or attention spans), the thing about DPS rolls is that they apply equally to all aspects of a Trinity Based game. The same cannot be said for tanks or healers. Tanks, while necessary for dungeon / raid content, are typically useless in PvP, and have a harder time soloing. Healers, while not having it quite as bad (everyone loves a pocket heal), still generally have a harder time soloing (which is why a lot of games started giving them DPS specs).
Furthermore, like you say, DPS classes typically have the most lenient gear reqs. Only in the most finely tuned DPS race encounters does having sub-par gear make much of a difference, and those are few & far between.
This has been covered already. Yes, support/defense/offense exists in most combat scenarios. You're confusing roles with a taunt-based combat system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sorry it pained you so. Hopefully those links helped you out.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Can't fool you huh? Well, I don't have to. Youv'e beaten me to it all by yourself. You are so busy arguing over the fact that it works and it's possible, you are telling me that tanks can gear up through a whole extra layer of grind that DPS specs aren't bound to, or at least to a much lesser degree was the whole point.
You are bound and determined to twist my argument onto a ground where you can find a stance to prove me wrong. But in reality, by changing what I have said to suit your argument, it's really no longer my argument now is it? It's yours. So, in the future, if you feel like arguing with yourself, please go and post something yourself and then respond to it and tell yourself you are wrong. Don't attach my name to your arguments.
Aaaand it continues.
Somehow trading one grind for another somehow magically makes the Tank's gear requirements less than DPS to get into the same content.
I'm not even going to get into posting a link to Tank gear requirements in WoW that's a year old. (Did you really just do that?)
OK, Have a good day sir, you win I'm done.
A problem of the class trinity was that it required classes/builds that are by itself just unfun to play. Playing a healer or tank outside of group content felt like a waste of time. Rift tried to sidestep the problem with it respec-fest when otherwise it stuck to the EQ/WoW formula.
Still the most fun was bulldozing a mission in City of Heroes/Villains when any proper build would contribute to the group and it would often just work, often with no healer or classic tank.
Nope, I'm not confused at all.
I know you like Guild Wars, but I thought the class design and structure of the game was horrendous. It was boring to no end.
I made no statement regarding a combat system. You can have a widely different combat system while maintain class roles and maintaining the Trinity. Just because you have a Tank, does not mean you have to have a taunt based system. That's utterly false. DnD has had classes falling into the category for decades without taunting based combat. Your premise is flawed.
Presumably...someone trying to market something other?
How do you get players to pick your game over (whatever they're playing)?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Someone had to cater to those people who sucked so bad that they couldn't get into raids or when they did the groups fell apart and reformed when they were gone.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Eh... Tank can exist two ways: Either it uses a taunt system, or it exploits an underdeveloped AI. Do you remember Baldur's Gate? -In that game, there was no taunt system and the monsters would attack the first thing they saw. Thing is, they never switched targets so you always put your tank forward to "get aggro" and then proceed to kill the mobs with your other characters.
Bioware didn't change the AI until Throne of Bhaal. It made the game extremely easy - much like other trinity games.
The class design and structure in GW1 was well ahead of its time, but I get if if you come from a background of only knowing the trinity and nothing else, then it might look a bit confusing and chaotic at times. For me, we never had a "tank" when we played PnP RPGs, and I never liked the mechanic in computer RPGs (including MMOs), so GW1 felt like an oasis of good combat in the middle of a vast desert.
The trinity makes combat formulaic and trivial. Its like a dance routine, always the same. Things can get interesting only if somebody makes a mistake. And these games are not very hard anyway so why would you? It doesn't even promote "teamwork" 'cause everyone usually have just one job to do. Thats it. You do your thing, the rest do their thing, and if everybody does their thing well, nobody needs to talk to one another and all encounters are won. Woopty doo!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Which unfortunately is a massive population and hence end up steering the direction of games due to their financial weighting. Games are really only fun in the early adopter stage. Once they become "cool" and all the Joe and Judy averages turn up things go to shit.