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I personally prefer non-instanced dungeons, but only on certain conditions which are hard to meet.
Firstly the dungeons need to be big enough, and hard enough to find, according to estimated population. Nothing kills immersion like a supposedly abandoned mine as full as a football stadium :S An open world dungeon would need several hidden entrances spread across the map, linked together with hidden passageways and mazes. Of course, crowded dungeons are fine as long as it suits the lore^^ (I'm still waiting for Sword Art Online, now that we have the Oculus Rift!)
Secondly It helps to have bosses interspersed that can't be killed, and instead simply retreat into the depths once defeated, opening up a small part of the dungeon for a limited time. This completed kills the need for instancing, as good dungeon design would allow a natural equalized distribution of the population.
Also, I HATE gear-centric games because so far, all of those are gear-centric because they move away from the skill-centric model that I prefer. I like to compare it with Magic: The Gathering. YES to new cards and possibilities of new lethal combinations relevant to the player's skill, NO to giving hardcore players more powerful versions of the same cards...
Besides, running a dungeon and rescuing people who need some help, or getting rescued, or just plain chilling out with another group taking a rest/healing before moving on, or getting lost and meeting up with someone else who is lost too trying to find your way out..etc. These things are all impossible in instanced dongeons^^
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Originally posted by kaz350 But there has to be a better way....back in EQ1 I could literally name every single peice of my gear by exact name and where I got it down to rings and earrings.....ask me what my Warlock is wearing in WoW? Bits and peices of Tier 14, WTF is tier 14 gear? .... And yes I agree you can still use instances to tell a story nothing wrong with that, have something like a Story line dungeons that groups can LFG for. But then have harder "Side quest" dungeons that are non-instanced in the open world.
Eh, the item thing is just how much item content a game has. If your class in a game only has 3 weapons upgrades, you will remember their names (good) the game will feel woefully short on item content (bad.) Doesn't really have anything to do with dungeon design.
Also I'm not sure why you'd try to have the "harder" dungeons in the open world, as you'd have to go out of your way to invent several new systems for them to actually be capable of being hard. Otherwise that "hard" boss is just going to be zerged because...well because that's how open world content works: you can zerg it to make it trivially easy.
It's much easier to handle it in instanced dungeons, probably via a difficulty selection where you can choose the difficulty which is right for your group. Each encounter would be custom-tailored to provide an extremely tight challenge (and presumably have better rewards to match to increase in challenge.) Although I suppose I feel like it's slightly better to just have some dungeons which are always at least a certain difficulty since while I don't feel letting everyone see (the easy mode of) all content is bad, I think it's slightly better to have some sections of the game which are clearly known as a good solid challenge.
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Simple version is this word devs always toss around called... Immersion.
I don't exactly find a dungeon packed with people and no mobs... likely to be the experience they were going for. It would be like sitting down to a game of D&D and when you get to the dungeon its full of other parties... that neither you or the DM knew were there.. somehow. "Ok sorry guys... obviously the adventure is over for now as the camps are all taken." Altho I think a lot of Devs decided "contested" content was a good thing... but never really looked at what it was doing to the community in their game. The only thing that ever makes them "think" is when subs drop and by then its already too late...
As to something I saw on the first page...
Instances do not kill crafting. What killed crafting was when devs decided the best gear would come from either doing PvE (aka raiding as it currently is) or farming PvP currency. Another variation of the "let's kill crafting" scenario is when they make the mats drop in "raids" and also make them BoP. A lot of people who want to craft... might not have the leet raiding skills to ever actually get the drops.
Which really is another problem... raid progression has almost always been about gear (that wasn't crafted). While I could respond further to me its just another issue all together and not part of the "instance" versus "non instance" topic...
Originally posted by xray00 It has nothing to do with gear but rather with making a dungeon feel like a dungeon. Dungeons are about a small group of people entering, exploring and conquering. When a dungeon is not instanced and you can have dozens of groups working through them. Dungeons are about isolation. They are about overcoming the current occupants. They are not about camping or fighting with other adventurers for content. I've never understood why people oppose instanced dungeons. If you don't want to run them because they are instanced and it breaks your 'immersion' (now there is a joke in an mmo but that aside).
Because the thrill of meeting someone in the last likely place and forming a social bond pretty damn entertaining. I'll never forget the First time I stepped foot in Glendon Wood Dungeon or Black Death Catacomb while playing Asheron's Call or Stonehenge Barrow's in DAoC. The same can not be said for any generic instanced dungeon in any other game I played in the last 7 or 8 years.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
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Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
Originally posted by ariboersma Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.
Part of it is the size, none instanced dungeons are usually huge.
Another thing is that sometimes others show up and actually help you out, this would work excellent in a similar system to GW2 where everyone in a bossfight actually get part of the loot and XP.
There is the competetive thing for PvP of course, and you will never be sure which boss that is up and not.
Being able to stay in the dungeon a long time without beting yourself in from the start several time helps as well even if it ain't that fun.
It kinda sounds a bit weird when I analyze it but I really had fun in those large open dungeons, I guess you need to play a few to really get it. Then again, taste differs but I think more people would like it if they just gave it a try.
I'm not opposed to them, but I'd never want them to be the only option for that type of content. Both instance and non instance dungeons offer a different type of experience for people.
You'll never really get that PnP feel from an open world one when you have multiple other groups inside killing every thing, but it is fun to have huge open world caves to explore and happen upon other people.
I am not against them at all.
The best PVE x PVP mix I have experienced was in huge public dungeons in Lineage 2. There is nothing massive about instanced dungeons / raids for a few people like in WoW.
In L2 in Lair of Antharas, which was a huge open world dungeon, for instance, there were constantly dozens of other people with whom you could group or eventually fight for nice spots. It wasnt a game breaking issue if you had to fight someone for a spot. If something, it just spiced up the gameplay a little bit.
There have never been huge guilds camping anything on the server where I played, so this argument does not hold at least in case of this game.
Instanced dungeons / raids turn MMORPGs into lobby games. WoW's and other MMOs' design is getting closer to Starcraft with the only difference that they have a persistent world for some reason and Orgrimmar serves as the lobby.
I'm not opposed to open world BUT i think a mix of open dungeons and instances is superior.
Decent example would be EQ2 during it first 2-3 years. You had your great open dungeons for exploration and some nice adventures but you also had your instances(especially for raiding i prefere having instances).
Originally posted by DamonVile I'm not opposed to them, but I'd never want them to be the only option for that type of content. Both instance and non instance dungeons offer a different type of experience for people. You'll never really get that PnP feel from an open world one when you have multiple other groups inside killing every thing, but it is fun to have huge open world caves to explore and happen upon other people.
I actually had a Forgotten realms campaign where another group of adventurers sometimes beat the players to the goal. It was surprisingly fun and they really did everything to beat that other group (they were shocked when the big boss in the second adventure were dead and he whole nation celebrated the brave heroes who took him down).
But yeah, having instanced dungeons for story purpose is good. I could also see a 2 group PvE dungeon where you run through different paths to try to beat that other group though as well as regular open dungeons and instances.
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Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard What I think would be a good solution is open world dungeon with instanced/phased boss rooms.
EQ2 actually did that way back. Some dungeons were open with an instanced endboss (like the one in Antonica, can't remember the name).
And yes, it did work fine. Instancing every boss on the other hand might be a bit too much. 1-3 high end bosses is a good idea.
Originally posted by kyssari While I still prefer open world noninstanced dungeons I wouldn't mind instanced ones quite so much if they were actually large NONLINEAR areas with respawning named mobs that you could actually spend time in and EXPLORE rather than just zerg from point A to point B in 10 minutes over and over and over and over again.
That is a very different problem. MMO dungeons are too small nowadays.
A MMO should have small, medium and large dungeons, not just small. Have an hour to play? Pick a small. Saturday afternoon and crappy weather? Time to do a huge one.
i dont really care...
if instances are made so that there is no loading screens I WANT THEM and only party members and friends can enter the same instance
Open dungeons.... if the entrance requires a key and the players can choose to leave the door open when they enter allowing others to enter as well or if they dont, they can close the door behind them and only those with a duplicate key can enter behind them
good or what?
or just instance the boss room
well i have to admit i dont like that there is 100 other players running around in the dungeon (unless there is open PvP) when im trying to have an adventure and proceed with my own pace
i'm Assuming that the "Dungeon" you people speak of is more than just a cave of monsters
Originally posted by kaz350 I'm really curious to hear your feedback. Is being able to "Run a dungeon" worth killing so many other aspects of the MMO?
Yes. Particularly killing the non-fun (for me, and many, may not for you) aspects of MMOs.
News flash, nothing in video games made a player "special". It is all illusions created by devs to entertain. Hence, i much prefer to see all the content, and get more enjoyment out of the illusion.
You don't think you are the only master chief when you finished HALO, do you? The same applies to MMOs.
I choose Non-instanced dungeons/content all the way.
[mod edit] I prefer to have people on my friends list that are good tanks, healers, or dps that on any given night any combo of my friends could work together and dungeon hunt.
To me this allows you to enjoy the content much more than just clearing a instance all week and then complaining that there is a lack of content. And for the person complaining about eq1 rare drops, thats why they are RARE. Everybody and their momma isnt suppossed to get it, unless you sacrifice your time and sanity to do it.
In eq1 if you did a shitty job at healing, or any other role, you probably didnt get asked again for a group. Your reputation mattered. Unlike games now, only healers had heal spells. Now every game every class has some sort of healing oh shit button at least etc.
Now granted everybodys want out of a MMO will be different and i can understand that. But what fun is it when you walk around the town and see the bastard sword of elite on alot of warriors.
Example eq1 Bone bladed claymore. If you wanted that you needed to gather some strong friends and grind your way down. Now adays you ask oh where did you get that. Such and such instance. 2 clicks later you are in the instance with some random group of people spending the first few mins getting loot rules straight because you dont want a ninja. And someone always does do a oops.
Originally posted by singe22 To me this allows you to enjoy the content much more than just clearing a instance all week and then complaining that there is a lack of content.
nah .. i prefer to clear a instance all week, then move onto another game.
I never complain about a lack of content. There is so much content out there that i can hardly consume even a small fraction. The trick is don't only play one game.
In fact, i don't most gamers will stick to one game.
Originally posted by kaz350 Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Dropped, epic Gear is what kills Crafting...end of story.
Whether it drops on Instanced Dungeons or Open Dungeons it matters little.
When the rewards of the game compete with the what the players can create, your problem is there.
On the flip side. Players are to a degree responsible of this shift. Because many tend to be very greedy, and if the crafted gear is better than the dropped one then people will overprice their crafted goods, others will take advantage of the market in many different ways with mats and price gauging, to generate cash to sell on ebay and Gold/level Services sites...and that kills the game over time.
The only solution is basically equal gear between Raiding and Crafting with readily available gathering materials as to eliminate the situation of Rarity which opens the opportunity of taking advantage the system for the purpose of RMT.
But I guess...cash shops are more popular now days...
Originally posted by Suraknar
So? It is not like crafting is important to combat centric MMOs anyway.
I don't see a scenario where meeting other players (players other than in my group) in a dungeon would be a good experience. Sure they may help, but usually players just ignore each other. More often, they are actually harmful to each other.
Also, spawncamping is the lamest gameplay ever invented. Absolutely horrid.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Suraknar
This is debatable. It all depends how Combat centric you want your game to be and how much Depth you want in it.
There is no crafting in a game such as, WorldWar II Online for instance, it is all Combat. You die you respawn etc.
On the other hand, in a Game such as Arch Age, or, let me use a running example, EVE Online. Crafting is most important as it constitutes the backbone of the economy. Coprs/Alliances go out to claim their own piece of the Galaxy, they have to Build Ships to protect it, and they need both material and Money to do so which does come from Crafting (including Gathering in it such as Mining), which they trade for.
It has much depth and there are interdependencies between Crafting and Combat. You can wage War and you can certainly affect the outcome with a combination of Military and Economic Strategy.
So...it is not as simple as you seem to think
As for the Topic at hand.
People got used to run Instances/Dungeons/Raids in a structured way.
It is a paradox today...and it will take some gradual re-education of players. You cannot just throw everyone in to an open dungeon where they will be forced to deal with other groups, potentially feel like if they are being griefed. After a couple of unsuccessful runs without rewards players today will take the walking out door.
So now lets think of the game makers, let us put ourselves in their shoes. There are two possibilities.
1 - They are young and never experienced open Dungeons themselves. All they had fun with is Instanced Dungeons and that is what they know and that is what they design.
2 - They know of the potential fun of open Dungeons, but they are there to make a Successful product in terms of a business. Knowing that players today will not accept to go through troubles and tribulations, they have no choice than to offer an experience they know players will enjoy and will not start quitting the game in complaint. (At least game designer who are dependent on the paycheck from a major publisher).
Then, well we have the Independent game makers, who stick to their Vision no matter what and self finance their games (Public likeKickstarter, and without the Backing of Venture Capital and Major Publishers). This is one way more players of today will have an opportunity to become accustomed to different gameplay. In time a critical mass will exist and will show up on the tendency Charts of Major Publishers, and at that point we may start seeing Major Publishers venturing in to more open experiences with their games.
Ultimately it does depend on the Public opinion and consuming habits of us the players. If we want change we need to show it through the games w prefer to play.
Originally posted by kaz350 Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced. In a Themepark game that has focus Dungeons and Raids, this is not an issue. Crafting is there for Variety of play. I never crafted in WoW, and I never felt the need to do it either, and that was fine with me, because I still had fun in the game. I do have friends who liked to craft and they did on the other hand. This means both types of playstyles had fun, and everyone was happy. Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools! Again this is not a problem. It is a Solution when the only thing you can do in game is Instances and Dungeons in order to Play it. Can you imagine WoW without Instances? What will people do when they log on? Count their toes? Infinite dungeons make rare/epic gear the Norm...meaning nothing is epic or rare: When you sloooow down the amount of available gear in the game everything instantly becomes more valauble and *Gasp* memorable! As it should be, the Instances are there and should be accessible to EVERYONE playing the game. Can you imagine logging on to WoW and not be able to do an instance for the sake of making Gear "valuable" and for the "Elite" ? Pffft. So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it" Amongst other issues with Open Dungeons, basically yes, that is one valid one why many would be opposed to it. In order for this to work there should be another way people who cannot go to the Dungeon for xyz reason can still have access to the same rewards. In UO there was not problem because the Crafted Gear was equal to the dropped one. So if you were not part of a large Guild that was running the Open dungeons every night and could repel/survive the PK sweeping operations, you could craft it in the peace and quiet of your House So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now" Well, it would not be wrong if like the above there were alternatives that gave people same Power Items as the Skeleton King who is being monopolised by a few Organized Guilds. In a context of a Themepark game with Focus Character Progression, it is very wrong, because the one's monopolising the Skeleton king are preventing others from progressing their character and ultimatelly actually enjoying and playing the game. Also consider once the "next tier" of dungeons come out, the older dungeons will clear out which will allow YOU to start farmiing those dungeons while the top tier guilds farm the new stuff. Isnt this CONSIDERBLY a better option than welfare tokens? Umm. No, what am I supposed to do in the mean time? Wander around admiring the Moonlight? Why should some players be forced to wait before they can have access to the rides which permit them to advance their characters/story/lore etc which constitute the Core gameplay? This can only work in a game where there are no Tiers of Gear. And Dungeons are part of the world and constitute Adventure opportunities for those that prefer that play style. It cannot work in a game where everyone has one goal a dictated by the game's design. You effectively segregate players between First class and Second and Third class players...and guess what? In reality they are just as equal as you, and have every right to the same content as you. So forget it in such a game. having an organized guild doe snot make you better than others in terms of your value as a player and as a person. Not to mention if you kill Infinite dungeons you can kill the whole Bind on Equip feature which will allow those top guilds to sell off their old gear. This would help guilds earn money for their guild raids instead of the absoutely terrible guild feature of "spawning an extra 10% gold from nowhere" perk. Umm, no again, this is a mechanism to make the rich richer and the poor remain poor and dependent on the "Top" guilds offers and price gauging. if there is a mechanic for some people to monopolise the access to certain content then your game is flawed, and not fun. And will be heading toward becoming a niche game very soon which eventually you will quit too because you will nto be able to sell what you get from your priviledged positioning to anyone. This can only work in a game that has been designed to give the opportunity to all to have something to exchange, whether you are a lone adveturer trapping animals for their hides or part of a 5000 member guild. This is also part of the reaon why I dislike many Asian MMO's in their design there are mechanisms which force "player castes" or "social ranks" through economic means. This to me is flawed mechanics and are not fun in the long run. And of course those flawed approaches are being exploited by RMTers...which in many cases turn out to be members or even whole Guilds (the "Top" ones you mention) which have monopolised Content for a profit and priviledged position within the Game's world. I'm really curious to hear your feedback. Is being able to "Run a dungeon" worth killing so many other aspects of the MMO? Glad to offer my feedback