If anything PCs are more of a thing of the past...you just haven't got the memo yet
Consoles were not created as a cheaper means of gaming...lol that is just silly
Try a more accessible way of gaming for all involved and you may be on to something
We are all part of this huge test market in more ways then most care to imagine
I for one am biding my time until the cat is let out of the bag so to speak...shant be long now
Well, think I am done talking to you. Don't think I will get anywhere with someone like you. Be like talking to one of those hippy conspiracy theorists. -.- Doesn't matter how much proof I show.
My 1 year old Alienware top knotch gaming laptop is still faster then the next gen consoles... i give it a year from now and windows 8 tablets will outperform the next gen consoles ... just connect them trough their wireless HDMi to your tele and use your tablet as the controller..
Consoles are so last decade...
Tablets have no room for a physical video card, so don't hold your breadth.
It is all built on board, and that has serious limitations.
Have you ever tried to play a game on a non-gaming laptop?
Try it an you will see.
You are mistaken, even the next generation consoles are using mobile graphics solutions... Nvidi has confirmed that current day mobile graphics will be possible in next years tablets.
The only downside is battery life, but then as long as you use your build in CPU graphics solution the added graphics chip will not use any resources.
No, I am not wrong.
Sure, technology increases exponentially so nvidia isn't wrong, but how long will that take? Also, just what is 'current day mobile grpahics' exactly? That bar can be very low or very high.
I only use intel CPUs atm, as they are far superior gaming processors. However, the Intel® HD Graphics 4000 is crap, and AMD is supposedly ahead, so lets see what google tells us.
"Trinity's built-in AMD Radeon HD 7660D GPU includes 384 graphics cores (which AMD calls stream processors) running at 800MHz. It's worth noting that this number of stream cores gives the 7660D higher potential performance than AMD's entry-level discrete GPUs, such as the Radeon HD 7450"
A 7450 won't run any recent game well.
Its so bad, I can't even find decent benchmarks.
The next gen consoles are mid grade PC game rigs at best.
They do use AMD APU, which is interesting, but I am guessing it is unique in design.
That is about the equivalent of GTX 650 ti to 660, and the 700 series will probably be out before either this game or those consoles even get here!
Regardless, it is going to be awhile before they miniaturize the APU to a point that tablets can play even dated games.
The point is, these APUs will eventually surpass discrete cards. So yes, you are technically wrong. You stated that on board graphics have serious limitations. That is a statement that is entirely false. It is the other way around. Discrete cards have limitations due to having to communicate over the board to the cpu. While onboard graphics communicates directly with the cpu. It's much faster.
You have to remember AMD's APUs are new. Compare their first APU with their newest going into the consoles, and you will see the rate of performance is increasing fairly quickly. Matter of fact, AMD is currently ruling the mobile market now.
In the past it was clearly impossible to play a game such as Crysis with out a discrete card. Now it's easily possible, and it runs at a playable speed. Again it may not be better then discrete cards yet, but again, it's new. Needs to play a bit of catch up.
No, no they won't. At least not anytime soon.
I am sorry, but you clearly know nothing about the tech industry.
My 1 year old Alienware top knotch gaming laptop is still faster then the next gen consoles... i give it a year from now and windows 8 tablets will outperform the next gen consoles ... just connect them trough their wireless HDMi to your tele and use your tablet as the controller..
Consoles are so last decade...
Tablets have no room for a physical video card, so don't hold your breadth.
It is all built on board, and that has serious limitations.
Have you ever tried to play a game on a non-gaming laptop?
Try it an you will see.
You are mistaken, even the next generation consoles are using mobile graphics solutions... Nvidi has confirmed that current day mobile graphics will be possible in next years tablets.
The only downside is battery life, but then as long as you use your build in CPU graphics solution the added graphics chip will not use any resources.
No, I am not wrong.
Sure, technology increases exponentially so nvidia isn't wrong, but how long will that take? Also, just what is 'current day mobile grpahics' exactly? That bar can be very low or very high.
I only use intel CPUs atm, as they are far superior gaming processors. However, the Intel® HD Graphics 4000 is crap, and AMD is supposedly ahead, so lets see what google tells us.
"Trinity's built-in AMD Radeon HD 7660D GPU includes 384 graphics cores (which AMD calls stream processors) running at 800MHz. It's worth noting that this number of stream cores gives the 7660D higher potential performance than AMD's entry-level discrete GPUs, such as the Radeon HD 7450"
A 7450 won't run any recent game well.
Its so bad, I can't even find decent benchmarks.
The next gen consoles are mid grade PC game rigs at best.
They do use AMD APU, which is interesting, but I am guessing it is unique in design.
That is about the equivalent of GTX 650 ti to 660, and the 700 series will probably be out before either this game or those consoles even get here!
Regardless, it is going to be awhile before they miniaturize the APU to a point that tablets can play even dated games.
The point is, these APUs will eventually surpass discrete cards. So yes, you are technically wrong. You stated that on board graphics have serious limitations. That is a statement that is entirely false. It is the other way around. Discrete cards have limitations due to having to communicate over the board to the cpu. While onboard graphics communicates directly with the cpu. It's much faster.
You have to remember AMD's APUs are new. Compare their first APU with their newest going into the consoles, and you will see the rate of performance is increasing fairly quickly. Matter of fact, AMD is currently ruling the mobile market now.
In the past it was clearly impossible to play a game such as Crysis with out a discrete card. Now it's easily possible, and it runs at a playable speed. Again it may not be better then discrete cards yet, but again, it's new. Needs to play a bit of catch up.
No, no they won't. At least not anytime soon.
I am sorry, but you clearly know nothing about the tech industry.
Really? Tell that to the schools that gave me my degrees and certifications rofl. Also, you sentences contradict themselves, you just said no they won't and then said at least not anytime soon. It can't be both, it either will or will not happen. You disagreed and then agreed.
Yet I am the one that knows nothing?
Also, it WILL happen. Unless you want to explain to me, why you think it will not?
Also try and provide a better answer then a childish naaa aaa response. Show proof of your claims. I already clearly stated that by having a CPU and Graphics on board using the same chip increases the speed at which communications happen between the 2. Also, would be nice if you explained to me why you think you know more then AMD, since they agree with me.
My 1 year old Alienware top knotch gaming laptop is still faster then the next gen consoles... i give it a year from now and windows 8 tablets will outperform the next gen consoles ... just connect them trough their wireless HDMi to your tele and use your tablet as the controller..
Consoles are so last decade...
Tablets have no room for a physical video card, so don't hold your breadth.
It is all built on board, and that has serious limitations.
Have you ever tried to play a game on a non-gaming laptop?
Try it an you will see.
You are mistaken, even the next generation consoles are using mobile graphics solutions... Nvidi has confirmed that current day mobile graphics will be possible in next years tablets.
The only downside is battery life, but then as long as you use your build in CPU graphics solution the added graphics chip will not use any resources.
No, I am not wrong.
Sure, technology increases exponentially so nvidia isn't wrong, but how long will that take? Also, just what is 'current day mobile grpahics' exactly? That bar can be very low or very high.
I only use intel CPUs atm, as they are far superior gaming processors. However, the Intel® HD Graphics 4000 is crap, and AMD is supposedly ahead, so lets see what google tells us.
"Trinity's built-in AMD Radeon HD 7660D GPU includes 384 graphics cores (which AMD calls stream processors) running at 800MHz. It's worth noting that this number of stream cores gives the 7660D higher potential performance than AMD's entry-level discrete GPUs, such as the Radeon HD 7450"
A 7450 won't run any recent game well.
Its so bad, I can't even find decent benchmarks.
The next gen consoles are mid grade PC game rigs at best.
They do use AMD APU, which is interesting, but I am guessing it is unique in design.
That is about the equivalent of GTX 650 ti to 660, and the 700 series will probably be out before either this game or those consoles even get here!
Regardless, it is going to be awhile before they miniaturize the APU to a point that tablets can play even dated games.
The point is, these APUs will eventually surpass discrete cards. So yes, you are technically wrong. You stated that on board graphics have serious limitations. That is a statement that is entirely false. It is the other way around. Discrete cards have limitations due to having to communicate over the board to the cpu. While onboard graphics communicates directly with the cpu. It's much faster.
You have to remember AMD's APUs are new. Compare their first APU with their newest going into the consoles, and you will see the rate of performance is increasing fairly quickly. Matter of fact, AMD is currently ruling the mobile market now.
In the past it was clearly impossible to play a game such as Crysis with out a discrete card. Now it's easily possible, and it runs at a playable speed. Again it may not be better then discrete cards yet, but again, it's new. Needs to play a bit of catch up.
No, no they won't. At least not anytime soon.
I am sorry, but you clearly know nothing about the tech industry.
Really? Tell that to the schools that gave me my degrees and certifications rofl. Also, you sentences contradict themselves, you just said no they won't and then said at least not anytime soon. It can't be both, it either will or will not happen. You disagreed and then agreed.
Yet I am the one that knows nothing?
Also, it WILL happen. Unless you want to explain to me, why you think it will not?
Also try and provide a better answer then a childish naaa aaa response. Show proof of your claims. I already clearly stated that by having a CPU and Graphics on board using the same chip increases the speed at which communications happen between the 2. Also, would be nice if you explained to me why you think you know more then AMD, since they agree with me.
A degree in what? Let me guess, A+ certification? Yes, you know nothing.
You are right they do slightly contradict. It is a close call between never, and stupidly unlikely. I am not so arrogant as to think I can predict the future, unlike someone else.
Childish responses? I am the ones posting sources! The best APU tech available right now, which is specialized and took millions to develop, is less than 1/3 the power of current day top of the line cards. AND ITS NOT EVEN ON THE MARKET YET! The next gen graphics cards will be out at the same time, and it will likely be 1/4.
Besides, the burden of proof is on you sir. You are the one saying something contradictory to what is happening within the Higher end graphic market place right now. The APU has a huge chasm to clear before it becomes even close to matching current day top of the line cards. They can't even be upgraded, which makes them far less popular in the PC gaming industry. There are also huge differences in size! Size matters when it comes to computing power!
Finally, and most importantly, we are getting close to the atomic scale with our architecture. There isn't much room left for significant improvements, unless something revolutionary happens.
And even if we pretend something does happen, like layering chips, then the same applies to standalone graphics cards. Then we are back to the previous point of size matters. Ohh and layering would only delay the end of Moore's Law!
My 1 year old Alienware top knotch gaming laptop is still faster then the next gen consoles... i give it a year from now and windows 8 tablets will outperform the next gen consoles ... just connect them trough their wireless HDMi to your tele and use your tablet as the controller..
Consoles are so last decade...
Tablets have no room for a physical video card, so don't hold your breadth.
It is all built on board, and that has serious limitations.
Have you ever tried to play a game on a non-gaming laptop?
Try it an you will see.
You are mistaken, even the next generation consoles are using mobile graphics solutions... Nvidi has confirmed that current day mobile graphics will be possible in next years tablets.
The only downside is battery life, but then as long as you use your build in CPU graphics solution the added graphics chip will not use any resources.
No, I am not wrong.
Sure, technology increases exponentially so nvidia isn't wrong, but how long will that take? Also, just what is 'current day mobile grpahics' exactly? That bar can be very low or very high.
I only use intel CPUs atm, as they are far superior gaming processors. However, the Intel® HD Graphics 4000 is crap, and AMD is supposedly ahead, so lets see what google tells us.
"Trinity's built-in AMD Radeon HD 7660D GPU includes 384 graphics cores (which AMD calls stream processors) running at 800MHz. It's worth noting that this number of stream cores gives the 7660D higher potential performance than AMD's entry-level discrete GPUs, such as the Radeon HD 7450"
A 7450 won't run any recent game well.
Its so bad, I can't even find decent benchmarks.
The next gen consoles are mid grade PC game rigs at best.
They do use AMD APU, which is interesting, but I am guessing it is unique in design.
That is about the equivalent of GTX 650 ti to 660, and the 700 series will probably be out before either this game or those consoles even get here!
Regardless, it is going to be awhile before they miniaturize the APU to a point that tablets can play even dated games.
The point is, these APUs will eventually surpass discrete cards. So yes, you are technically wrong. You stated that on board graphics have serious limitations. That is a statement that is entirely false. It is the other way around. Discrete cards have limitations due to having to communicate over the board to the cpu. While onboard graphics communicates directly with the cpu. It's much faster.
You have to remember AMD's APUs are new. Compare their first APU with their newest going into the consoles, and you will see the rate of performance is increasing fairly quickly. Matter of fact, AMD is currently ruling the mobile market now.
In the past it was clearly impossible to play a game such as Crysis with out a discrete card. Now it's easily possible, and it runs at a playable speed. Again it may not be better then discrete cards yet, but again, it's new. Needs to play a bit of catch up.
No, no they won't. At least not anytime soon.
I am sorry, but you clearly know nothing about the tech industry.
Really? Tell that to the schools that gave me my degrees and certifications rofl. Also, you sentences contradict themselves, you just said no they won't and then said at least not anytime soon. It can't be both, it either will or will not happen. You disagreed and then agreed.
Yet I am the one that knows nothing?
Also, it WILL happen. Unless you want to explain to me, why you think it will not?
Also try and provide a better answer then a childish naaa aaa response. Show proof of your claims. I already clearly stated that by having a CPU and Graphics on board using the same chip increases the speed at which communications happen between the 2. Also, would be nice if you explained to me why you think you know more then AMD, since they agree with me.
A degree in what? Let me guess, A+ certification? Yes, you know nothing.
You are right they do slightly contradict. It is a close call between never, and stupidly unlikely. I am not so arrogant as to think I can predict the future, unlike someone else.
Childish responses? I am the ones posting sources! The best APU tech available right now, which is specialized and took millions to develop, is less than 1/3 the power of current day top of the line cards. AND ITS NOT EVEN ON THE MARKET YET! The next gen graphics cards will be out at the same time, and it will likely be 1/4.
Besides, the burden of proof is on you sir. You are the one saying something contradictory to what is happening within the Higher end graphic market place right now. The APU has a huge chasm to clear before it becomes even close to matching current day top of the line cards. They can't even be upgraded, which makes them far less popular in the PC gaming industry. There are also huge differences in size! Size matters when it comes to computing power!
Finally, and most importantly, we are getting close to the atomic scale with our architecture. There isn't much room left for significant improvements, unless something revolutionary happens.
And even if we pretend something does happen, like layering chips, then the same applies to standalone graphics cards. Then we are back to the previous point of size matters. Ohh and layering would only delay the end of Moore's Law!
Telecommunications trade degree, Fiber Optic Tech Certifications, Cisco Certifications, Bachelors of Computer Science, and I also have a lot of training in video games when I went to The Art Institute, though I do not have a degree for that.
As for your sources, where are they? I don't see any sources, I just see all talk and no proof.
As for my proof? This discussion started to do with Tablets. Technology loves to go mobile. You should know that. Tell me how they are going to do that, with a discrete bulky graphics card? Do you think Computers will always remain the same size? Sure we can also suggest the discrete graphics card will get smaller, however, why bother when you can use integrated graphics which have been on the rise. It's much cheaper as well since it is fewer components.
Alright, so I will admit, you are right, integrated graphics will actually never surpass discrete graphics performance wise. But how about cost/performance? It will most certainly surpass discrete cards with in this area. I consider that surpassing discrete cards, because eventually there will be no need for them. More power doesn't mean anything if you have nothing to use that power with. Why bother using a discrete solution if you can achieve the same with a cheaper integrated solution? Wonder if this is the reason why the new consoles are using Integrated graphics .. hmmm makes you think.
Don't forget, you are the one who stated integrated graphics has limitations. You are the one who is mistaken about this tech. I own an AMD A8 Llano APU. While it most certainly isn't something to brag about. It most certainly does do it's job. It plays most games perfectly fine. This A8 is old though. It no where near the performance of current APU.
You also said you can't upgrade an APU, which is a flat out lie. You most certainly can, it's the same as upgrading your CPU. It's why I can switch out my A8, for an A6 and it still works.
However, all these have limitations of course, and the same goes with discrete cards as well. A new socket for the APU will come out and you will no longer be able to upgrade. As for a graphics card, the same happens to an extent. You can upgrade the card, but if it bottle necks the CPU, the upgrade was pretty much worthless. You can only upgrade till you hit that limit.
The benefit about upgrading a APU, is it cost less, and it's technically upgrading 2 components, CPU and GPU at the same time.
If they keep improving as they do, to think integrated graphics will remain in the back seat would be stupid. As for limitations, where are they? They may not be as powerful, but cost/performance, as well as size, does not scream limited to me. Those are very huge benefits.
Also, the communication between the CPU and GPU is much better with integrated solutions, though I already mentioned that 1000 times.
For those of you looking to purchase one of the upcoming x86-based Windows 8 tablets such as the Microsoft Surface Pro or the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro, we can confirm that Guild Wars 2 will be playable on those devices.
For those of you looking to purchase one of the upcoming x86-based Windows 8 tablets such as the Microsoft Surface Pro or the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro, we can confirm that Guild Wars 2 will be playable on those devices.
They are basically mini-laptops.
Well, guess that ends the debate. Wasn't expecting you to agree for some reason. Maybe I am to used to trolls everywhere XD.
For those of you looking to purchase one of the upcoming x86-based Windows 8 tablets such as the Microsoft Surface Pro or the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro, we can confirm that Guild Wars 2 will be playable on those devices.
They are basically mini-laptops.
Our machine with the Intel HD Graphics integrated GPU averaged frame rates in the mid-20′s on low settings at 1280×720
I would not call that playable, i was referring to mobile graphics cards at very low power, but not at integrated graphics. 20 fps at 1280 gives not even 10 fps at a full HD tablet which will be the standard.
No, Next year we will see tablets with much much more GPU power and even better scaled CPU power management, to push the Windows 8 tablets to where they belong. Kings of the home gaming domain.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
For those of you looking to purchase one of the upcoming x86-based Windows 8 tablets such as the Microsoft Surface Pro or the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro, we can confirm that Guild Wars 2 will be playable on those devices.
They are basically mini-laptops.
Our machine with the Intel HD Graphics integrated GPU averaged frame rates in the mid-20′s on low settings at 1280×720
I would not call that playable, i was referring to mobile graphics cards at very low power, but not at integrated graphics. 20 fps at 1280 gives not even 10 fps at a full HD tablet which will be the standard.
No, Next year we will see tablets with much much more GPU power and even better scaled CPU power management, to push the Windows 8 tablets to where they belong. Kings of the home gaming domain.
Umm just so you know, Intel integrated HD Graphics is nothing compared to AMDs APU. Though that may change with Intel's upcoming version which apparently is 3x better then their last according to them.
But ya, don't use your intel HD graphics machine as some type of standard for integrated graphics. If you thought intel's integrated graphics where top of line, you would be thinking wrong. AMD has had them beat by a long shot for a while now.
As for mobile graphics cards, do they even have anything that will fit in a tablet? Could had sworn all tablets had an integrated solution. Though I could be wrong about that. ... Or am I misunderstanding you?
For those of you looking to purchase one of the upcoming x86-based Windows 8 tablets such as the Microsoft Surface Pro or the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro, we can confirm that Guild Wars 2 will be playable on those devices.
They are basically mini-laptops.
Our machine with the Intel HD Graphics integrated GPU averaged frame rates in the mid-20′s on low settings at 1280×720
I would not call that playable, i was referring to mobile graphics cards at very low power, but not at integrated graphics. 20 fps at 1280 gives not even 10 fps at a full HD tablet which will be the standard.
No, Next year we will see tablets with much much more GPU power and even better scaled CPU power management, to push the Windows 8 tablets to where they belong. Kings of the home gaming domain.
Umm just so you know, Intel integrated HD Graphics is nothing compared to AMDs APU. Though that may change with Intel's upcoming version which apparently is 3x better then their last according to them.
But ya, don't use your intel HD graphics machine as some type of standard for integrated graphics. If you thought intel's integrated graphics where top of line, you would be thinking wrong. AMD has had them beat by a long shot for a while now.
As for mobile graphics cards, do they even have anything that will fit in a tablet? Could had sworn all tablets had an integrated solution. Though I could be wrong about that. ... Or am I misunderstanding you?
They hope to have something in performance comparable to an 7970M in mobile tablet format early next year
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Hrmm lets see should I develop a game for all the cutting edge PC hardware or for all platforms and not force my customer to upgrade this time around and introduce more younger gamers to this genre
Let me know when you figure this one out
The more your involved, the less you see
Even ESO is more of an introductory MMO as they have stated multiple times...so if your hoping ESO is what EQ3 shoulda been you are jumping on the wrong bandwagon
Hrmm lets see should I develop a game for all the cutting edge PC hardware or for all platforms and not force my customer to upgrade this time around and introduce more younger gamers to this genre
Let me know when you figure this one out
The more your involved, the less you see
Even ESO is more of an introductory MMO as they have stated multiple times...so if your hoping ESO is what EQ3 shoulda been you are jumping on the wrong bandwagon
The answer to this is scaling...
build an engine that runs on 5 year old hardware and look okay... Make it scale to look top knotch at next years top hardware and you have an mmo to last long long time. Cartoony or realistic graphics does not matter. Annimations do...
Teso will be about adventures in a virtual world and so will EQN be.. Both are about story and lore, both have action based combat, but TESO has freedom of character building, where so far it feels like building characters in EQN is bound by restriction after restriction.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Hrmm lets see should I develop a game for all the cutting edge PC hardware or for all platforms and not force my customer to upgrade this time around and introduce more younger gamers to this genre
Let me know when you figure this one out
The more your involved, the less you see
Even ESO is more of an introductory MMO as they have stated multiple times...so if your hoping ESO is what EQ3 shoulda been you are jumping on the wrong bandwagon
The answer to this is scaling...
build an engine that runs on 5 year old hardware and look okay... Make it scale to look top knotch at next years top hardware and you have an mmo to last long long time. Cartoony or realistic graphics does not matter. Annimations do...
Teso will be about adventures in a virtual world and so will EQN be.. Both are about story and lore, both have action based combat, but TESO has freedom of character building, where so far it feels like building characters in EQN is bound by restriction after restriction.
I disagree about the art style, but if what you say is true then they got some serious work to do with the animations.
EQN has no restrictions as far as I know. They are pretty much identical!
Hrmm lets see should I develop a game for all the cutting edge PC hardware or for all platforms and not force my customer to upgrade this time around and introduce more younger gamers to this genre
Let me know when you figure this one out
The more your involved, the less you see
Even ESO is more of an introductory MMO as they have stated multiple times...so if your hoping ESO is what EQ3 shoulda been you are jumping on the wrong bandwagon
The answer to this is scaling...
build an engine that runs on 5 year old hardware and look okay... Make it scale to look top knotch at next years top hardware and you have an mmo to last long long time. Cartoony or realistic graphics does not matter. Annimations do...
Teso will be about adventures in a virtual world and so will EQN be.. Both are about story and lore, both have action based combat, but TESO has freedom of character building, where so far it feels like building characters in EQN is bound by restriction after restriction.
I disagree about the art style, but if what you say is true then they got some serious work to do with the animations.
EQN has no restrictions as far as I know. They are pretty much identical!
You can get all skills in the game.
Find skills in the word.
Weapons have skills.
Well to be fair, I don't think anyone knows "how" customizable the classes in EQN will be. You can get all the skills, but can you use them at any given time with out going through a few hoops to change your class? It be a pain if I have to switch class, switch weapons to match and all that junk every time I wanted to change. Maybe they already answered these questions, not sure though.
In ESO, you can have a sword out and push a button that uses magic, then hit another button to switch to archery. You can pretty much use any of your skills at any moment in time as long as you have the proper equipment and such. No class switching is even necessary. In other words it's like real life, assuming magic existed rofl. If I am holding a sword, why wouldn't I be able to shoot a fire spell from my other hand that is free? Why wouldn't I be able to put my sword away and take out a bow? Why wouldn't I be able to run up, grab a mace, and be able to use it right away? These things are what makes the Elder Scrolls games more interesting then most in my opinion. I have always hated class systems. Having classes is essentially telling you what you can and cannot do. Which is, limiting. Complete opposite of choices and customization.
Just wanted to chime in some thoughts on the tech debate. Now I didnt go to college for all the fancy computer tech and design. I went for Computer Science as in Programming. And it doesn't matter how fast the hardware is its just a hunk of metal unless we do something with it.
And most developers wont mess with the hardware but will use an API. Now if both cards support all the requirments and features of an API there is no difference what card you have other than performance . PCI-e mobo works the same weither you have IGU or a GPU. While yes the mechanics for the IGU to work as in using your system memory and such is different. How it works in the grand scheme of things is the same. They all adhere to the same Architect design
Also PCI-e transfer rates are alot faster than current standared RAM (as in ddr3) PCI-e i think does 8gt(s) on each lane while DDR3 does 2.*gt(s) total, sure ddr5 is better which GPUs use but most system memory is still ddr3. Also dedicated on die memory will always be faster than accessing the system, like the cache on cpu (L2, L3). Then theres power consumption. Current GPUs use more power than what can be placed on the bus thats why you have to connect it to the power supply. Sure you can do what most cpu do and add power connectors near the IGU but not the best thing to do.
Also Tablets and other handheld devices wont reach current graphic capabilities for the same reason why a Desktop will outperform a Laptop. Unless some new alien battery tech comes out, they just wont have the power to do it then there are other limiting factors that would come into play. So stop believing the PR hype.
Now on to the whole Consoles will beat pc. Actually no both are going down, also the reason why microsoft turned there xbone into a household entertainment box instead of a pure gaming console. See big production gaming isnt seeing the return on the investment. The idea that the more you pump into the game = more profit isnt working. If trends continue cheap smartphone/tablet games produce more profit vs investment.
Also something else to take note of. Tablet and specialy smartphone sales have leveled off. Samsung and the rest are freaking out because as they produce better and more powerful tablets and smart phones sales havent remained steady or increasing. In other words people arnt rushing out to buy the best newest hardware in mass.
Just wanted to chime in some thoughts on the tech debate. Now I didnt go to college for all the fancy computer tech and design. I went for Computer Science as in Programming. And it doesn't matter how fast the hardware is its just a hunk of metal unless we do something with it.
And most developers wont mess with the hardware but will use an API. Now if both cards support all the requirments and features of an API there is no difference what card you have other than performance . PCI-e mobo works the same weither you have IGU or a GPU. While yes the mechanics for the IGU to work as in using your system memory and such is different. How it works in the grand scheme of things is the same. They all adhere to the same Architect design
Also PCI-e transfer rates are alot faster than current standared RAM (as in ddr3) PCI-e i think does 8gt(s) on each lane while DDR3 does 2.*gt(s) total, sure ddr5 is better which GPUs use but most system memory is still ddr3. Also dedicated on die memory will always be faster than accessing the system, like the cache on cpu (L2, L3). Then theres power consumption. Current GPUs use more power than what can be placed on the bus thats why you have to connect it to the power supply. Sure you can do what most cpu do and add power connectors near the IGU but not the best thing to do.
Also Tablets and other handheld devices wont reach current graphic capabilities for the same reason why a Desktop will outperform a Laptop. Unless some new alien battery tech comes out, they just wont have the power to do it then there are other limiting factors that would come into play. So stop believing the PR hype.
Now on to the whole Consoles will beat pc. Actually no both are going down, also the reason why microsoft turned there xbone into a household entertainment box instead of a pure gaming console. See big production gaming isnt seeing the return on the investment. The idea that the more you pump into the game = more profit isnt working. If trends continue cheap smartphone/tablet games produce more profit vs investment.
Also something else to take note of. Tablet and specialy smartphone sales have leveled off. Samsung and the rest are freaking out because as they produce better and more powerful tablets and smart phones sales havent remained steady or increasing. In other words people arnt rushing out to buy the best newest hardware in mass.
I agree with everything said here, besides PCs going down. The reason I say it's unlikely is because I can't think of any moment in time where we would not benefit from a PC. PCs may become less popular, and may pertain to less people. However, I doubt they would stop making them. You still have the enthusiasts, gamers, companies, and artists and they are not disappearing.
"The idea that the more you pump into the game = more profit isnt working. "
They are trying to fix that issue. It's isn't that it isn't working. It's that there are some problems that are preventing it from working. Such as used games. They are trying to come up with a way to fix it, but the consumers are not exactly on board. Example being the Xbox One.
Simply put, I do believe consoles will no longer have a purpose, which will increase PC sales once again. I suppose we could say PCs will eventually die if you consider a smaller version not a PC.
Just wanted to chime in some thoughts on the tech debate. Now I didnt go to college for all the fancy computer tech and design. I went for Computer Science as in Programming. And it doesn't matter how fast the hardware is its just a hunk of metal unless we do something with it.
And most developers wont mess with the hardware but will use an API. Now if both cards support all the requirments and features of an API there is no difference what card you have other than performance . PCI-e mobo works the same weither you have IGU or a GPU. While yes the mechanics for the IGU to work as in using your system memory and such is different. How it works in the grand scheme of things is the same. They all adhere to the same Architect design
Also PCI-e transfer rates are alot faster than current standared RAM (as in ddr3) PCI-e i think does 8gt(s) on each lane while DDR3 does 2.*gt(s) total, sure ddr5 is better which GPUs use but most system memory is still ddr3. Also dedicated on die memory will always be faster than accessing the system, like the cache on cpu (L2, L3). Then theres power consumption. Current GPUs use more power than what can be placed on the bus thats why you have to connect it to the power supply. Sure you can do what most cpu do and add power connectors near the IGU but not the best thing to do.
Also Tablets and other handheld devices wont reach current graphic capabilities for the same reason why a Desktop will outperform a Laptop. Unless some new alien battery tech comes out, they just wont have the power to do it then there are other limiting factors that would come into play. So stop believing the PR hype.
Now on to the whole Consoles will beat pc. Actually no both are going down, also the reason why microsoft turned there xbone into a household entertainment box instead of a pure gaming console. See big production gaming isnt seeing the return on the investment. The idea that the more you pump into the game = more profit isnt working. If trends continue cheap smartphone/tablet games produce more profit vs investment.
Also something else to take note of. Tablet and specialy smartphone sales have leveled off. Samsung and the rest are freaking out because as they produce better and more powerful tablets and smart phones sales havent remained steady or increasing. In other words people arnt rushing out to buy the best newest hardware in mass.
I agree with most of what you are saying.
I don't think PC or Console game development is going anywhere though. The return/ cost ratio is higher with those small cheap phone games, but the net returns aren't even remotely comparable. If a game company spends $10,000 making bejewled, and make $100,000 from that investment, then they had a 10:1 return/cost. However, if EA spends 20 million making CoD4, and gets a return of 80m, then the return is only 4:1, but they total return is grossly more. As long as there is a demand for new games like CoD4, then there will always be someone to supply it.
Another issue is that there are so many indie game companies making those cheap easy games, that making a winner is almost like winning the lottery.
I think the problem with the smartphone and tablet sales is that the new technology that comes out is mathematically better, but it isn't functionally superior.
If we could only marry the Eq Next freedom and systems with ES lore, we might have the perfect mmo. Personally, I think EQ2 will be vastly better in terms of system, freedom and play.
Originally posted by NagilumSadow If we could only marry the Eq Next freedom and systems with ES lore, we might have the perfect mmo. Personally, I think EQ2 will be vastly better in terms of system, freedom and play.
I was thinking the same thing Nagilum Sadow. I was actually hoping we could marry the ESO graphics with the EQ lore but either way is fine with me because both games have excellent lore. I care about story and realistic graphics the most in any video game, after that, I think game mechanics always come after those two.
Either way I'm so happy one of the two (ESO), is being released and will satisfy my two main wants for me for the next five years atleast.
ESO isn't going to be my cup of tea... EQN is going to be my EQN... Lol. That being said, I see a lot of people in this thread who haven't played Morrowind. You are doing yourself a disservice. IMO the only game in the series that is better is Skyrim. It won't have graphics that will knock you on your ass, but the game itself is amazing.
Originally posted by kingotnw ESO isn't going to be my cup of tea... EQN is going to be my EQN... Lol. That being said, I see a lot of people in this thread who haven't played Morrowind. You are doing yourself a disservice. IMO the only game in the series that is better is Skyrim. It won't have graphics that will knock you on your ass, but the game itself is amazing.
How can this be?
The best game in the series was daggerfall, if you can see trough the graphics... there is so many things in Daggerfall which would be great additions to almost any MMO
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
If anything PCs are more of a thing of the past...you just haven't got the memo yet
Consoles were not created as a cheaper means of gaming...lol that is just silly
Try a more accessible way of gaming for all involved and you may be on to something
We are all part of this huge test market in more ways then most care to imagine
I for one am biding my time until the cat is let out of the bag so to speak...shant be long now
Joined - July 2004
Well, think I am done talking to you. Don't think I will get anywhere with someone like you. Be like talking to one of those hippy conspiracy theorists. -.- Doesn't matter how much proof I show.
I'm not sure if the irony is intended or not, but i don't think you'll find something less similar to ES or EQ than ESO.
No, no they won't. At least not anytime soon.
I am sorry, but you clearly know nothing about the tech industry.
Really? Tell that to the schools that gave me my degrees and certifications rofl. Also, you sentences contradict themselves, you just said no they won't and then said at least not anytime soon. It can't be both, it either will or will not happen. You disagreed and then agreed.
Yet I am the one that knows nothing?
Also, it WILL happen. Unless you want to explain to me, why you think it will not?
Also try and provide a better answer then a childish naaa aaa response. Show proof of your claims. I already clearly stated that by having a CPU and Graphics on board using the same chip increases the speed at which communications happen between the 2. Also, would be nice if you explained to me why you think you know more then AMD, since they agree with me.
A degree in what? Let me guess, A+ certification? Yes, you know nothing.
You are right they do slightly contradict. It is a close call between never, and stupidly unlikely. I am not so arrogant as to think I can predict the future, unlike someone else.
Childish responses? I am the ones posting sources! The best APU tech available right now, which is specialized and took millions to develop, is less than 1/3 the power of current day top of the line cards. AND ITS NOT EVEN ON THE MARKET YET! The next gen graphics cards will be out at the same time, and it will likely be 1/4.
Besides, the burden of proof is on you sir. You are the one saying something contradictory to what is happening within the Higher end graphic market place right now. The APU has a huge chasm to clear before it becomes even close to matching current day top of the line cards. They can't even be upgraded, which makes them far less popular in the PC gaming industry. There are also huge differences in size! Size matters when it comes to computing power!
Finally, and most importantly, we are getting close to the atomic scale with our architecture. There isn't much room left for significant improvements, unless something revolutionary happens.
And even if we pretend something does happen, like layering chips, then the same applies to standalone graphics cards. Then we are back to the previous point of size matters. Ohh and layering would only delay the end of Moore's Law!
Telecommunications trade degree, Fiber Optic Tech Certifications, Cisco Certifications, Bachelors of Computer Science, and I also have a lot of training in video games when I went to The Art Institute, though I do not have a degree for that.
As for your sources, where are they? I don't see any sources, I just see all talk and no proof.
As for my proof? This discussion started to do with Tablets. Technology loves to go mobile. You should know that. Tell me how they are going to do that, with a discrete bulky graphics card? Do you think Computers will always remain the same size? Sure we can also suggest the discrete graphics card will get smaller, however, why bother when you can use integrated graphics which have been on the rise. It's much cheaper as well since it is fewer components.
Alright, so I will admit, you are right, integrated graphics will actually never surpass discrete graphics performance wise. But how about cost/performance? It will most certainly surpass discrete cards with in this area. I consider that surpassing discrete cards, because eventually there will be no need for them. More power doesn't mean anything if you have nothing to use that power with. Why bother using a discrete solution if you can achieve the same with a cheaper integrated solution? Wonder if this is the reason why the new consoles are using Integrated graphics .. hmmm makes you think.
Don't forget, you are the one who stated integrated graphics has limitations. You are the one who is mistaken about this tech. I own an AMD A8 Llano APU. While it most certainly isn't something to brag about. It most certainly does do it's job. It plays most games perfectly fine. This A8 is old though. It no where near the performance of current APU.
You also said you can't upgrade an APU, which is a flat out lie. You most certainly can, it's the same as upgrading your CPU. It's why I can switch out my A8, for an A6 and it still works.
However, all these have limitations of course, and the same goes with discrete cards as well. A new socket for the APU will come out and you will no longer be able to upgrade. As for a graphics card, the same happens to an extent. You can upgrade the card, but if it bottle necks the CPU, the upgrade was pretty much worthless. You can only upgrade till you hit that limit.
The benefit about upgrading a APU, is it cost less, and it's technically upgrading 2 components, CPU and GPU at the same time.
If they keep improving as they do, to think integrated graphics will remain in the back seat would be stupid. As for limitations, where are they? They may not be as powerful, but cost/performance, as well as size, does not scream limited to me. Those are very huge benefits.
Also, the communication between the CPU and GPU is much better with integrated solutions, though I already mentioned that 1000 times.
All I was saying was they wouldn't surpass standalone graphic cards in power.
As far as the future of mobile devices, then yes APU is king.
http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/and-the-verdict-of-guild-wars-2-on-windows-8-is/
For those of you looking to purchase one of the upcoming x86-based Windows 8 tablets such as the Microsoft Surface Pro or the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro, we can confirm that Guild Wars 2 will be playable on those devices.
They are basically mini-laptops.
Well, guess that ends the debate. Wasn't expecting you to agree for some reason. Maybe I am to used to trolls everywhere XD.
Our machine with the Intel HD Graphics integrated GPU averaged frame rates in the mid-20′s on low settings at 1280×720
I would not call that playable, i was referring to mobile graphics cards at very low power, but not at integrated graphics. 20 fps at 1280 gives not even 10 fps at a full HD tablet which will be the standard.
No, Next year we will see tablets with much much more GPU power and even better scaled CPU power management, to push the Windows 8 tablets to where they belong. Kings of the home gaming domain.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Umm just so you know, Intel integrated HD Graphics is nothing compared to AMDs APU. Though that may change with Intel's upcoming version which apparently is 3x better then their last according to them.
But ya, don't use your intel HD graphics machine as some type of standard for integrated graphics. If you thought intel's integrated graphics where top of line, you would be thinking wrong. AMD has had them beat by a long shot for a while now.
As for mobile graphics cards, do they even have anything that will fit in a tablet? Could had sworn all tablets had an integrated solution. Though I could be wrong about that. ... Or am I misunderstanding you?
They hope to have something in performance comparable to an 7970M in mobile tablet format early next year
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
related to forthcoming tablet graphic cards
http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/24/4551800/nvidia-kepler-mobile-logan-siggraph-shield-confirmed
EQ2 fan sites
Hrmm lets see should I develop a game for all the cutting edge PC hardware or for all platforms and not force my customer to upgrade this time around and introduce more younger gamers to this genre
Let me know when you figure this one out
The more your involved, the less you see
Even ESO is more of an introductory MMO as they have stated multiple times...so if your hoping ESO is what EQ3 shoulda been you are jumping on the wrong bandwagon
The answer to this is scaling...
build an engine that runs on 5 year old hardware and look okay... Make it scale to look top knotch at next years top hardware and you have an mmo to last long long time. Cartoony or realistic graphics does not matter. Annimations do...
Teso will be about adventures in a virtual world and so will EQN be.. Both are about story and lore, both have action based combat, but TESO has freedom of character building, where so far it feels like building characters in EQN is bound by restriction after restriction.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I disagree about the art style, but if what you say is true then they got some serious work to do with the animations.
EQN has no restrictions as far as I know. They are pretty much identical!
You can get all skills in the game.
Find skills in the word.
Weapons have skills.
Well to be fair, I don't think anyone knows "how" customizable the classes in EQN will be. You can get all the skills, but can you use them at any given time with out going through a few hoops to change your class? It be a pain if I have to switch class, switch weapons to match and all that junk every time I wanted to change. Maybe they already answered these questions, not sure though.
In ESO, you can have a sword out and push a button that uses magic, then hit another button to switch to archery. You can pretty much use any of your skills at any moment in time as long as you have the proper equipment and such. No class switching is even necessary. In other words it's like real life, assuming magic existed rofl. If I am holding a sword, why wouldn't I be able to shoot a fire spell from my other hand that is free? Why wouldn't I be able to put my sword away and take out a bow? Why wouldn't I be able to run up, grab a mace, and be able to use it right away? These things are what makes the Elder Scrolls games more interesting then most in my opinion. I have always hated class systems. Having classes is essentially telling you what you can and cannot do. Which is, limiting. Complete opposite of choices and customization.
Just wanted to chime in some thoughts on the tech debate. Now I didnt go to college for all the fancy computer tech and design. I went for Computer Science as in Programming. And it doesn't matter how fast the hardware is its just a hunk of metal unless we do something with it.
And most developers wont mess with the hardware but will use an API. Now if both cards support all the requirments and features of an API there is no difference what card you have other than performance . PCI-e mobo works the same weither you have IGU or a GPU. While yes the mechanics for the IGU to work as in using your system memory and such is different. How it works in the grand scheme of things is the same. They all adhere to the same Architect design
Also PCI-e transfer rates are alot faster than current standared RAM (as in ddr3) PCI-e i think does 8gt(s) on each lane while DDR3 does 2.*gt(s) total, sure ddr5 is better which GPUs use but most system memory is still ddr3. Also dedicated on die memory will always be faster than accessing the system, like the cache on cpu (L2, L3). Then theres power consumption. Current GPUs use more power than what can be placed on the bus thats why you have to connect it to the power supply. Sure you can do what most cpu do and add power connectors near the IGU but not the best thing to do.
Also Tablets and other handheld devices wont reach current graphic capabilities for the same reason why a Desktop will outperform a Laptop. Unless some new alien battery tech comes out, they just wont have the power to do it then there are other limiting factors that would come into play. So stop believing the PR hype.
Now on to the whole Consoles will beat pc. Actually no both are going down, also the reason why microsoft turned there xbone into a household entertainment box instead of a pure gaming console. See big production gaming isnt seeing the return on the investment. The idea that the more you pump into the game = more profit isnt working. If trends continue cheap smartphone/tablet games produce more profit vs investment.
Also something else to take note of. Tablet and specialy smartphone sales have leveled off. Samsung and the rest are freaking out because as they produce better and more powerful tablets and smart phones sales havent remained steady or increasing. In other words people arnt rushing out to buy the best newest hardware in mass.
I agree with everything said here, besides PCs going down. The reason I say it's unlikely is because I can't think of any moment in time where we would not benefit from a PC. PCs may become less popular, and may pertain to less people. However, I doubt they would stop making them. You still have the enthusiasts, gamers, companies, and artists and they are not disappearing.
"The idea that the more you pump into the game = more profit isnt working. "
They are trying to fix that issue. It's isn't that it isn't working. It's that there are some problems that are preventing it from working. Such as used games. They are trying to come up with a way to fix it, but the consumers are not exactly on board. Example being the Xbox One.
Simply put, I do believe consoles will no longer have a purpose, which will increase PC sales once again. I suppose we could say PCs will eventually die if you consider a smaller version not a PC.
I agree with most of what you are saying.
I don't think PC or Console game development is going anywhere though. The return/ cost ratio is higher with those small cheap phone games, but the net returns aren't even remotely comparable. If a game company spends $10,000 making bejewled, and make $100,000 from that investment, then they had a 10:1 return/cost. However, if EA spends 20 million making CoD4, and gets a return of 80m, then the return is only 4:1, but they total return is grossly more. As long as there is a demand for new games like CoD4, then there will always be someone to supply it.
Another issue is that there are so many indie game companies making those cheap easy games, that making a winner is almost like winning the lottery.
I think the problem with the smartphone and tablet sales is that the new technology that comes out is mathematically better, but it isn't functionally superior.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
I was thinking the same thing Nagilum Sadow. I was actually hoping we could marry the ESO graphics with the EQ lore but either way is fine with me because both games have excellent lore. I care about story and realistic graphics the most in any video game, after that, I think game mechanics always come after those two.
Either way I'm so happy one of the two (ESO), is being released and will satisfy my two main wants for me for the next five years atleast.
How can this be?
The best game in the series was daggerfall, if you can see trough the graphics... there is so many things in Daggerfall which would be great additions to almost any MMO
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)