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Faster leveling made reaching endgame harder for me.

FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
I know, the title sounds confusing since you would think that faster leveling means it should be easy as stealing candy from a baby to reach the endgame. However just as the fact that I would never be able to get myself to steal candy from a baby, fast leveling has prevented me from reaching any endgame ever since it got forced on us.

The thing is that the road towards endgame is a huge part of my enjoyment in mmo's and that fun has been removed nearly completely when they started to speed up the leveling process. Now you outlevel the zones you are in way before you finish all the quests, there is no reason other than punishing yourself to team up with strangers. Everyone has many different quests in their log, nobody has the same ones, teaming up makes it so easy it becomes dull as hell and when you want to level up at the same speed as your friends you can't do squad when they ain't online.

When I started playing World of Warcraft at release it was already a game that was much easier than previous mmo's and many found the dumbing down already a letdown. However the leveling speed was still slow enough to be able to play more than your friends and still remain close to eachother in levels and there was enough content to have fun playing in small groups while leveling up.

These days those things are gone in all mmo's I have played since, which I admit ain't all that many so there still may be that one gem out there. I just can't seem to find any questbased mmo anymore that does not rush you to endgame and still keeps teaming up pre-endgame fun.

In the end even though the leveling is way faster than it used to be I get bored with the game before I reach said endgame. Sure I could just struggle on and get to max level if I really wanted, but I have one rule when it comes to gaming that I only break to help others if absolutely needed and that is "if it ain't fun I won't do it since the only reason to play a game is to have fun so doing unfun things in a game doesn't make enough sense to me to do them".

Does anyone else have this same problem in which faster leveling rather prevents them from reaching endgame instead of making it easier?

I understand that all I wrote sounds completely alien to those that consider leveling a means to an end just to start raiding as quickly as possible, but try to compare it to being able to buy tier 12 armor but still being forced to grind the previous 11 raid tiers for a quarter of the time it originally took to get each armor set. Would you enjoy a game that forces that on you and more importantly: would you reach the tier 13 raid you bought the tier 12 armor for?

I know that sounds like a strange comparison, but think of it this way: You get to play all those raids you used to enjoy, but because of the massively more powerful armor you got there is no challenge and little to no fun, just like outleveling does to questing fun.

Comments

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    I agree that the game play is so similar that it makes it hard to stick to any game. The boredom and reality that i am doing another pointless level grind sets in. The genre is stale with progression being all there is to do.

    Where is the danger, adventure, exploration, anything but the same ride cheaply spray painted as new to push me through another quest or level grind.
  • BigmamajamaBigmamajama Houston, TXPosts: 198Member

    Yes and what's an even bigger problem to me but related, is not just the speed of leveling but how easy the games are now in general.  Neverwinter is a perfect example.  Any one class takes on not one but three four and five mobs at a time, and this is a trend I'm seeing in more and more MMO's, just allowing players spastically mow through groups of mobs like you were cutting the lawn.  What's it called "action" combat?  Like I'm playing a kids arcade game, with a joystick and three buttons.

    Its just minding numbingly easy.  I miss the days when you didn't one and two shot mobs from the start, and there were LARGE areas of the game that were impossible to solo.

    I also need to mention the latest trend of "fewer" skills on the hot bar to get these "unruly" and "complex" MMO's to work on the console, this is just about the nail in the coffin for me now.

    I don't know maybe someone is making a game that's hard and complex and deep, but I honestly don't have allot of hope, maybe FF14 maybe ESO?  I played FF14 in beta and that was super easy too but maybe things change at higher levels.

    I guess what I'm looking for is an MMO for adults something that plays out more like a good game of chess (but not turn based) something with a ton of skills, totally unique classes that depend on each other and promotes group play.

  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
    The thing is that fast leveling results in making content that is already too easy even easier. Within a short time if you want to enjoy questing you have gotten so strong you kill everything in sight with a single blow. So what once was fun ( I love questing) suddenly becomes boring as hell.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,747Member Uncommon
    What I have learned over the years is that I enjoy the jourrney more than the destination......Its kind of like the Lord of the Rings movies....I enjoyed watching them try to get there more than when they finally did......I dont like easy leveling and like to work for my stuff along the way...Once they made everything easy mode to end game I lsot interest in alot of those types of MMOs.
  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I'm skeptical that you're focusing your ftrustation on the right variable.  You are blaming the leveling speed, but it sounds like a more basic problem that you're playing a game that doesn't offer the experience you're looking for.

  • GrayKodiakGrayKodiak Nada, FLPosts: 576Member
    You could always play a cash shop game and not use the cash shop, many of those make the leveling speed slow on purpose I think to reward you for spending money.
  • KuviskiKuviski KajaaniPosts: 214Member
    Originally posted by Bigmamajama
    I guess what I'm looking for is an MMO for adults something that plays out more like a good game of chess (but not turn based) something with a ton of skills, totally unique classes that depend on each other and promotes group play.

    I have to say I feel the same, combat amongst other things is getting faster and faster. It seems like somebody at some point decided hotbar combat was bad (which I don't think it is) and that it needed to gradually, game by game, be changed into some sort of action combat.

    I guess I could almost say I want more "math" and less "action".

  • Vynxe_VaingloryVynxe_Vainglory Princeville, HIPosts: 20Member

    I am with you on this issue in a way.

    I usually quit once I reach endgame...eventhough I want endgame to be good...it just never is (unless it is about PVP).  

    It is the nature of endgame.

    I've never seen a game that had a better endgame than the "meat" of the game...so why shorten the good part?

    Endgame is supposed to be an infinite grind for people who "beat" the game and want to cling to the game a bit longer.

    The emphasis on endgame as an important aspect seems completely insane to me.

    I agree that endgame should be fun, but the developers need to  focus on non-grind content rather than making the endgame "hipster-approved".

    I believe this is why sandboxes are so sought after.

    They essentially have no traditional format of game > endgame...

    They also typically provide real politics and other drama that provide interesting game nuances that structured games do not.

     

     

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

    So why cant Endgame be a journey for you? why only leveling can be?

    Also you say that Endgame is a grind, but how can you say that but in the same breath say you enjoy leveling? its even more of a grind, especially since its pretty much forced on you and others.

    In WoW for example, back in original, you couldnt do Old AV until you were level 51. Well what if I am level 50? Why cant I do Old AV?

    Or if I was level 10, or level 23, or whatever level below 51. Why did it need level requirements on gameplay features?

    WHEN you think about it, you realize that Levels are, and have always been, content locks, aka useless filter content to slow progression.

    But when many people realized this, thats when the age of Speed Leveling became the norm, because if Vanilla WoW came out today, nobody would want to take their time leveling, knowing that you get access to more features, and more freedom at max level than you do at any other level.

    image

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    So why cant Endgame be a journey for you? why only leveling can be?

    Um... unless I've misread, the OP is saying that he's not reaching the endgame because he burns out on a leveling game that isn't holding his attention.

  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayKodiak
    You could always play a cash shop game and not use the cash shop, many of those make the leveling speed slow on purpose I think to reward you for spending money.

    I think this is absolutely the way to to.  I have played several f2p games in their free modes and found them way more enjoyable in that flavor than in any configuration of their pay to play state.  Levelling is harder, things cost more money, everything feels earned, and most of all, you rarely outlevel anything before you are ready to, but then, it is also hard to socialize when everyone else around you moving at breakneck speed toward boredom.

    I'll bet though, that if you could find a group of people dedicated to playing a game in it's free to play configuration, you would have found a very enjoyable way of playing that would alleviate the way you are feeling now.

    image
  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I'm skeptical that you're focusing your ftrustation on the right variable.  You are blaming the leveling speed, but it sounds like a more basic problem that you're playing a game that doesn't offer the experience you're looking for.

    It is the right variable I am focusing on. Since I started using WoW as my example let me explain it with the same game. I love leveling and also doing that by following the storylines in every zone, however when I do that in WoW I will outlevel the quests of the story within a very short time thus removing even more of the already way too low challenge and it becomes boring.

    I started trying to get around this by gimping my gear, but in the end it just wasn't enough. It removed the fun of finding a nice looking item which I could not equip because it would make me too strong again. However even in vendor bought  white quality gear you get way too strong just because of your level.

    Wow does have the option of stopping your xp gain which as far as I know was to make twinks happy, but that doesn't have the desired effect since you just artificially stop your character's progression every few levels. Also most mmo's don't even have this lackluster feature.

  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    So why cant Endgame be a journey for you? why only leveling can be?

    Also you say that Endgame is a grind, but how can you say that but in the same breath say you enjoy leveling? its even more of a grind, especially since its pretty much forced on you and others.

    In WoW for example, back in original, you couldnt do Old AV until you were level 51. Well what if I am level 50? Why cant I do Old AV?

    Or if I was level 10, or level 23, or whatever level below 51. Why did it need level requirements on gameplay features?

    WHEN you think about it, you realize that Levels are, and have always been, content locks, aka useless filter content to slow progression.

    But when many people realized this, thats when the age of Speed Leveling became the norm, because if Vanilla WoW came out today, nobody would want to take their time leveling, knowing that you get access to more features, and more freedom at max level than you do at any other level.

    I never said that endgame is not a journey for me, just that leveling is at least as important to me and that is a journey that comes before endgame and because it has been made so boring thanks to fast leveling I get too bored in that part of the journey to even reach endgame.

    I disagree with your last statement regarding the notion that nobody would want to have slower leveling since 1. I am proof there are people that want it and 2. topics about leveling being too fast have been plentiful with many replies on the official forums. Sure a lot love fast leveling, but I have a strong feeling that they would like it even more if they got the choice between instant max level and slow leveling at character creation since they usually mention that they consider leveling a grind.

  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
    Originally posted by jesad
    Originally posted by GrayKodiak
    You could always play a cash shop game and not use the cash shop, many of those make the leveling speed slow on purpose I think to reward you for spending money.

    I think this is absolutely the way to to.  I have played several f2p games in their free modes and found them way more enjoyable in that flavor than in any configuration of their pay to play state.  Levelling is harder, things cost more money, everything feels earned, and most of all, you rarely outlevel anything before you are ready to, but then, it is also hard to socialize when everyone else around you moving at breakneck speed toward boredom.

    I'll bet though, that if you could find a group of people dedicated to playing a game in it's free to play configuration, you would have found a very enjoyable way of playing that would alleviate the way you are feeling now.

    Such a game may be the solution for me, do you have any good suggestions in that regard? The (very) few I tried still had fast leveling. Btw I am a pve player, so forced pvp games are not an option for me.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuviski

    I have to say I feel the same, combat amongst other things is getting faster and faster. It seems like somebody at some point decided hotbar combat was bad (which I don't think it is) and that it needed to gradually, game by game, be changed into some sort of action combat.

    I guess I could almost say I want more "math" and less "action".

    Combat is indeed faster but that have more to do with the difficulty. 

    You can have 100 skills but if most mobs go down on 3 seconds combat will suck anyways.

    What we need is to get rid of the trashmobs and raise the difficulty. Taking down a general mob should take a minute in 1 Vs 1, a boss 5 mins for a small group and high end bosses 10 minutes+.

    Combat can't be fun and interesting when it is too fast no matter what mechanics you use.

    Personally I don't mind actioncombat, it is different and there is room for several MMO combat mechanics in the genre.

    Fast leveling and levels in general is bad for another reason though: it divides up the players into way too many layers and it makes large parts of the game grey and unplayable after a short while. Playing 3 weeks in the open world only to get 95% of the game pointless is a waste of resources and make the game grindier than it have to be.

    GW2 put a bandaid on the whole thing by leveling you down when you enter a lower zone but taking away levels while still offer slow upgrades you buy for XP (and maxing out should take a long time) would be far better.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fyendiar

    Such a game may be the solution for me, do you have any good suggestions in that regard? The (very) few I tried still had fast leveling. Btw I am a pve player, so forced pvp games are not an option for me.

    Lineage 2 maybe?

  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Kuviski

    I have to say I feel the same, combat amongst other things is getting faster and faster. It seems like somebody at some point decided hotbar combat was bad (which I don't think it is) and that it needed to gradually, game by game, be changed into some sort of action combat.

    I guess I could almost say I want more "math" and less "action".

    Combat is indeed faster but that have more to do with the difficulty. 

    You can have 100 skills but if most mobs go down on 3 seconds combat will suck anyways.

    What we need is to get rid of the trashmobs and raise the difficulty. Taking down a general mob should take a minute in 1 Vs 1, a boss 5 mins for a small group and high end bosses 10 minutes+.

    Combat can't be fun and interesting when it is too fast no matter what mechanics you use.

    Personally I don't mind actioncombat, it is different and there is room for several MMO combat mechanics in the genre.

    Fast leveling and levels in general is bad for another reason though: it divides up the players into way too many layers and it makes large parts of the game grey and unplayable after a short while. Playing 3 weeks in the open world only to get 95% of the game pointless is a waste of resources and make the game grindier than it have to be.

    GW2 put a bandaid on the whole thing by leveling you down when you enter a lower zone but taking away levels while still offer slow upgrades you buy for XP (and maxing out should take a long time) would be far better.

    Making trashmobs more challenging would indeed be a huge step forwards even with fast leveling since they remain somewhat of a challenge when you outlevel them a bit. The 'hit once, loot and move on'-way things are these days is so mindnumbingly boring.

    I am not a big fan of actioncombat, but it's no gamebreaker either. I prefer the good old tabtarget and select ability though since I like to be able to do a bit of chatting with a keyboard instead of voicechat, something I can generally do easily in such games because I love playing healers so get to have more time in between panic button mashing moments than dps and a tank has.

    GW2 did the xp thing rather decently I agree, too bad (or me at least) they got rid of the holy trinity of which I am a huge fan.

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by Fyendiar

    Such a game may be the solution for me, do you have any good suggestions in that regard? The (very) few I tried still had fast leveling. Btw I am a pve player, so forced pvp games are not an option for me.

    Lineage 2 maybe?

    I vaguely remember trying that game ages ago, but ain't that game very pvp oriented and mainly with grinding rather than questing to lvl up? I don't mind some (or even a lot) grinding btw, just want it to be in a game where besides grinding there are nice storylines to follow. :)

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Fyendiar

    It is the right variable I am focusing on. Since I started using WoW as my example let me explain it with the same game. I love leveling and also doing that by following the storylines in every zone, however when I do that in WoW I will outlevel the quests of the story within a very short time thus removing even more of the already way too low challenge and it becomes boring.

    I'm curious at what handicap you feel WoW's mechanics become fun for you.  I know you want to experience the story, but did you ever experiment with wandering into higher level zones and grind mobs for a little, just to figure out what the difficulty sweet spot is? 

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Fyendiar

    It is the right variable I am focusing on. Since I started using WoW as my example let me explain it with the same game. I love leveling and also doing that by following the storylines in every zone, however when I do that in WoW I will outlevel the quests of the story within a very short time thus removing even more of the already way too low challenge and it becomes boring.

    I'm curious at what handicap you feel WoW's mechanics become fun for you.  I know you want to experience the story, but did you ever experiment with wandering into higher level zones and grind mobs for a little, just to figure out what the difficulty sweet spot is? 

    The quests aren't available to you until you are of the 'appropriate' level. Going into higher zones would grant you tough mobs, no story and little xp. 

  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Fyendiar

    It is the right variable I am focusing on. Since I started using WoW as my example let me explain it with the same game. I love leveling and also doing that by following the storylines in every zone, however when I do that in WoW I will outlevel the quests of the story within a very short time thus removing even more of the already way too low challenge and it becomes boring.

    I'm curious at what handicap you feel WoW's mechanics become fun for you.  I know you want to experience the story, but did you ever experiment with wandering into higher level zones and grind mobs for a little, just to figure out what the difficulty sweet spot is? 

    Back when the game was just released my sweetspot differed a lot between classes. For instance I was happily farming leather with my lvl 32 beastmaster hunter in Stranglethorn Vale from lvl 38 panthers admittingly with each fight ending with a dead pet and me kiting the last bit of life from them, but I would not have dared try that with my paladin, warrior or priest back then since they would have been eaten alive.

    When I however look at the current game, or at least how it was last I played it (few weeks after the panda's came), all classes while leveling where massively overpowered and even a holy priest could easily kill mobs 5 levels higher without any difficulty 10-85 (pandaria made it a bit harder, but still nowhere near a fun challenge). It's hard to define what the sweet spot would be using the current game as an example. The best I can do is saying that if you are fighting a single mob I want it to be doable, but with slight difficulty. Getting an add should cause a near panic attack and getting more than one add either certain death or an attempt to get running with my tail between my legs in the hopes to survive.

    Like someone said earlier talking about Neverwinter, these days you can easily kill groups with any class and getting a second group as unwanted adds is hardly a scare. I want a risk in my combat while leveling, I want a chance of dying in most fights if I make a mistake instead of being able to kill them all with ease while eating pizza at the same time.

    The problem with fast leveling is that is does not match the quests you encounter, so you don't get any challenging content until you reach endgame. Even skipping zones doesn't help enough.

  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Fyendiar

    It is the right variable I am focusing on. Since I started using WoW as my example let me explain it with the same game. I love leveling and also doing that by following the storylines in every zone, however when I do that in WoW I will outlevel the quests of the story within a very short time thus removing even more of the already way too low challenge and it becomes boring.

    I'm curious at what handicap you feel WoW's mechanics become fun for you.  I know you want to experience the story, but did you ever experiment with wandering into higher level zones and grind mobs for a little, just to figure out what the difficulty sweet spot is? 

    The quests aren't available to you until you are of the 'appropriate' level. Going into higher zones would grant you tough mobs, no story and little xp. 

    Ah yes I forgot that part. Ever since Wrath of the Lich King they made the level requirement for quests way too strict (2 lvls max if I remember correctly) so there was no longer an option to do challenging quests by going into a higher lvl zone.

    This isn't just a "wow is too easy" thread though, the problem with fast leveling seems to be a standard in mmo's these days. Streamlining the player so much.

    Kinda funny and sad at the same time if you think about it. The game that many considered too dumbed down at release is now seen as too difficult compared to the current mmo's. Strictly talking about vanilla WoW ofcourse.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    The quests aren't available to you until you are of the 'appropriate' level. Going into higher zones would grant you tough mobs, no story and little xp. 

    I realize this.  But the entire argument hinges on the assumption that there does actually exist a difficulty where he would find the mechanics to be fun, if only it was harder.  I'm saying that the part of the argument that's weak is the question of whether or not that sweet spot even exists.  The other possibility is that he's suffering from nostalgic memories of a state of bliss that cannot be recreated by these games at any difficulty.

    I'm just saying that, as an observer, I don't feel the OP has provided enough evidence that that he'd still actually enjoy the game at any difficulty.  He did once upon a time, but would he still even if he could have that old game back again?  It's not just games that change, people change.  The joy we could get from simple things starts to dull.  I'm not saying that I disagree with the OP, just that I don't yet agree ... I'm still neutral in this and ruling out nostalgia poisoning and proving that there still exists a difficulty he would find fun is what's holding me back..

  • FyendiarFyendiar LeerdamPosts: 252Member Common
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    The quests aren't available to you until you are of the 'appropriate' level. Going into higher zones would grant you tough mobs, no story and little xp. 

    I realize this.  But the entire argument hinges on the assumption that there does actually exist a difficulty where he would find the mechanics to be fun, if only it was harder.  I'm saying that the part of the argument that's weak is the question of whether or not that sweet spot even exists.  The other possibility is that he's suffering from nostalgic memories of a state of bliss that cannot be recreated by these games at any difficulty.

    I'm just saying that, as an observer, I don't feel the OP has provided enough evidence that that he'd still actually enjoy the game at any difficulty.  He did once upon a time, but would he still even if he could have that old game back again?  It's not just games that change, people change.  The joy we could get from simple things starts to dull.  I'm not saying that I disagree with the OP, just that I don't yet agree ... I'm still neutral in this and ruling out nostalgia poisoning and proving that there still exists a difficulty he would find fun is what's holding me back..

    I think I explained my sweet spot a few posts up when I said I want each fight to be somewhat of a challenge, an add to be a scare and multiple adds a reason to either run like hell or die or a reason to feel proud of myself for achieving something that feels impossible at the moment even if it is all just make-believe. However that is my personal sweet spot and I know everyone has his or her own.

    The thing I am looking for in future mmo's I will play, be it games I overlooked in the past or ones that have yet to come out, is that sweet spot I described, but in a new setting. I do feel nostalgia in regards to WoW, but that is mostly in regards to the guilds I was in and not so much the leveling speed or difficulty. The friendships I had in that game kept me playing long after I got bored of the game itself.

    Looking at games like Tera, Neverwinter, Lotro, Warhammer Online, ToR and Rift I see fun experiences if only I didn't out-level the content so easily. If only they had a bit more challenge while leveling up I would at the very least have played them much longer and perhaps still would. The wish for a bigger challenge and not out-leveling content is a preferred playstyle, not nostalgia.

    I am not sure if I would enjoy WoW again if they added to the difficulty and created at least an option to gain xp at a 10-30% of its current rate. I love the new stories they created with each expansion, but there is a big 'been there, done that' feel that may prevent me from enjoying that game again. There is too much bad history by now I fear. That does however not mean I don't want it in games I have yet to try.

    The base problem with all mmo's I have tried since is that difficulty can only be found at endgame and that each mmo seems set up to get the player to max level as fast as possible. I would like to see that change or at the very least give players the option at character creation to select the speed at which they want to gain experience.

    Sometimes I wish I was a fan of pvp since then it would be much easier to find a challenge. :)

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