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So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gibbonici

    My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.

    I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.

    Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.

    Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.

    I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.

    Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol

    The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.

    But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.  image 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon

    This is going to be my only post in this thread. All of you who are praising EQN for putting the sword to the trinity with its "advanced AI" first off, its not gonna be nearly as advanced as they're trying to make it sound. Second off, i'm gonna enjoy your tears of frustration at your fellow party members who can't even handle archaic and simple ai of todays mmos in a trinity game where the tank holds the aggro yet people still manage to die.

     

    So enjoy your parades at the death of the trinity for now because you will come crashing back to reality as soon as this game is released when you realize how wrong all of you truly were to think this could possibly be a good idea. The quote "becareful what you wish for" has never been more true.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gibbonici

    My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.

    I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.

    Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.

    Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.

    I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.

    Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol

    The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.

    But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.  image 

     

     

    No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.

    See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in. 

    Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gibbonici

    My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.

    I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.

    Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.

    Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.

    I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.

    Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol

    The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.

    But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.  image 

     

     

    No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.

    See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in. 

    Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.

    What I notice is that you seem to assume several reasons of why people dislike trinity, or rather grew tired of it, based on your own beliefs of what those people must be.

    GW2 proved nothing, there are still over 2.5 million people logging into that game every week. You'll have to find better.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gibbonici

    My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.

    I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.

    Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.

    Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.

    I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.

    Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol

    The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.

    But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.  image 

     

     

    No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.

    See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in. 

    Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.

    What I notice is that you seem to assume several reasons of why people dislike trinity, or rather grew tired of it, based on your own beliefs of what those people must be.

    GW2 proved nothing, there are still over 2.5 million people logging into that game every week. You'll have to find better.

    Can you please verify those numbers?

    I have actually tried to look myself, nothing specific was released on that number. Only a thread with a link to a Chinese website that made that claim, but it was only for the 1st 4 months after release and was also proven to be misinformation and was actually taken down.  

    Whatever the active logins per week is, I don't really care. I'm not here to debate the size of GW2's playerbase. I played the game, I know what it is, I know people log in every day. I know it's not a ghost town. But You still have to wait for dungeons. Anet thought, they didn't need a group finder. They were wrong.

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

    I think it was because people hated being rejected from groups because they didn't fit a role.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gibbonici

    My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.

    I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.

    Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.

    Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.

    I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.

    Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol

    The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.

    But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.  image 

    No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.

    See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in. 

    Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.

    As with many of the truly wonderful posts you've been crafting for us recently, you are either making wild assumptions about people or not even reading the posts. I mean, you are replying right below where I said I don't enjoy firing at a mob fixated on a tank, so where do you get that I did that with the ranged classes I played?

    You also assumed either every ranged class is like the WOW hunter or that I preferred that particular one over the dozen or so other ranged classes I've played, none of which have a pet.

    AND you assumed that since I liked a class that managed a variety of roles that it in any way means I'm being hypocritical by showing a dislike for a dedicated contrived taunt character. If the mobs are focusing on me when I'm solo, it's not because I'm casting Magic NeenerNeener IV at them, it's because I'm stabbing them with knives.

    "Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol"

    Which you follow up with a post that ignores everything everyone has said about their issues with it and present that they really do like the mechanic, they just don't realize it.

    It's just an observation that you really don't know much about either the posters or the subject matter, which is why I raise a glass to you and wish you the best. imageimage

     

    See,  I even raised a second one for you this time.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    (edit)

    As with many of the truly wonderful posts you've been crafting for us recently, you are either making wild assumptions about people or not even reading the posts. I mean, you are replying right below where I said I don't enjoy firing at a mob fixated on a tank, so where do you get that I did that with the ranged classes I played? Really?  What part of your pet acting as the taunting tank didn't you understand.. And I'm sure you healed our pet too.. I played a hunter, and it is still fresh in my mind what your options are.. I bet you went Beast on your spec which is the MOST "tank/heal" spec you can do.. You could of stored your pet and went survival ,, now there is a challenge :)

    You also assumed either every ranged class is like the WOW hunter or that I preferred that particular one over the dozen or so other ranged classes I've played, none of which have a pet. Why do you pick range classes.. I have news for you, but RANGE classes only work if someone else has the attention of the mob.. HENCE trinity..  How well do you think range dps does with no tank, no movement skills?  He gets OWNED is what happens..

    AND you assumed that since I liked a class that managed a variety of roles that it in any way means I'm being hypocritical by showing a dislike for a dedicated contrived taunt character. If the mobs are focusing on me when I'm solo, it's not because I'm casting Magic NeenerNeener IV at them, it's because I'm stabbing them with knives.

    "Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol"

    Which you follow up with a post that ignores everything everyone has said about their issues with it and present that they really do like the mechanic, they just don't realize it.

    It's just an observation that you really don't know much about either the posters or the subject matter, which is why I raise a glass to you and wish you the best. imageimage

     

    See,  I even raised a second one for you this time.

    Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brenelael
     

    Um... No, it's called a personal opinion.

     

    I find it very hard to believe that a mob that could wipe a trinity group in one hit wouldn't do the same to any other type of group. This has nothing to do with mob AI and everything to do with making group dynamics a thing of the past.

     

    Bren

    SO you're saying GW2 dungeons are solo-able? No?

    Well what else could you be saying? How does a change in Mob behavior or  play mechanics take away hard group related content? Even with trinity, games can be highly solo-able. Your correlation is way off.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

    Once again you don't make any sense Rydeson... I'm starting to wonder if you even play any MMORPG right now.

    Mage in WoW. Elementalist in GW2. Any mage in Asheron's Call. Runekeeper in LOTRO. Loremaster in the same game. Hunter in the same game. Powerful ranged classes without the need of a pet. And even hunter in WoW or rangers in GW2, if we are talking about PvP, are not really relying on the pet "grabbing attention", since a player can't be taunted.

    So what in the hell are you talking about? Never been kited to death by a frost mage without any pet? Never been nuked into oblivion by a skilled Elementalist? Then maybe you should try to play MMOs a bit more instead of just posting about them on a forum.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

    Holy cow.

    It has finally sunk in that you really don't know anything outside of EQ and WOW.  You really have never played Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, Aion, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth, Vanguard, Everquest 2, or any other MMO? You really are unaware that an archer class can be played without a pet? 

    And we're talking about the trinity, so what does PvP have to do with it... or do you really not know that people don't use taunt in PVP in most MMOs?

    I genuinely thought you were just trying to be difficult, but you've now made it very clear the issue is simply that you have no clue what you are talking about.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon

    I actually wonder if he even ever played WoW, Lokto... since pets definitely can't taunt players and are merely a bit more than "walking DOTs" in that game, with a few CC abilities which wouldn't be different if given to the character, and most of the times would be more efficient if given to the character.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

    Once again you don't make any sense Rydeson... I'm starting to wonder if you even play any MMORPG right now.

    Mage in WoW. Elementalist in GW2. Any mage in Asheron's Call. Runekeeper in LOTRO. Loremaster in the same game. Hunter in the same game. Powerful ranged classes without the need of a pet. And even hunter in WoW or rangers in GW2, if we are talking about PvP, are not really relying on the pet "grabbing attention", since a player can't be taunted.

    So what in the hell are you talking about? Never been kited to death by a frost mage without any pet? Never been nuked into oblivion by a skilled Elementalist? Then maybe you should try to play MMOs a bit more instead of just posting about them on a forum.

    Do you read jean?  Really.. what part of "NO OTHER CC SKILLS" don't you get..  I have a maxed mage too and that mage is NOTHING in PvP without his frost CC abilities..   Keep up..  Range DPS only works when you can stay at range.. You lose that gap, you lose your life..  It isnt' that hard..

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

    Holy cow.

    It has finally sunk in that you really don't know anything outside of EQ and WOW.  You really have never played Ultima Online, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call, Aion, Age of Conan, Fallen Earth, Vanguard, Everquest 2, or any other MMO? You really are unaware that an archer class can be played without a pet? 

    And we're talking about the trinity, so what does PvP have to do with it... or do you really not know that people don't use taunt in PVP in most MMOs?

    I genuinely thought you were just trying to be difficult, but you've now made it very clear the issue is simply that you have no clue what you are talking about.

    KEEP trying to fool yourself and others.. We're not biting.. YOU can't excuse the use of Range and then bad mouth the trinity role play.. The only reason why range classes work is because normally the mob is on SOMEONE ELSE.. DUH..  Have a great day

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

    Once again you don't make any sense Rydeson... I'm starting to wonder if you even play any MMORPG right now.

    Mage in WoW. Elementalist in GW2. Any mage in Asheron's Call. Runekeeper in LOTRO. Loremaster in the same game. Hunter in the same game. Powerful ranged classes without the need of a pet. And even hunter in WoW or rangers in GW2, if we are talking about PvP, are not really relying on the pet "grabbing attention", since a player can't be taunted.

    So what in the hell are you talking about? Never been kited to death by a frost mage without any pet? Never been nuked into oblivion by a skilled Elementalist? Then maybe you should try to play MMOs a bit more instead of just posting about them on a forum.

    Do you read jean?  Really.. what part of "NO OTHER CC SKILLS" don't you get..  I have a maxed mage too and that mage is NOTHING in PvP without his frost CC abilities..   Keep up..  Range DPS only works when you can stay at range.. You lose that gap, you lose your life..  It isnt' that hard..

    So you basically contradict yourself... nice one.

    I'm still waiting for your theories about tanking ranged characters.

    And nothing in your nonsense says ranged classes without trinity are not working. You're basically biting your own ankles in your posts.

    Originally posted by Rydeson

    KEEP trying to fool yourself and others.. We're not biting.. YOU can't excuse the use of Range and then bad mouth the trinity role play.. The only reason why range classes work is because normally the mob is on SOMEONE ELSE.. DUH..  Have a great day

    I wasn't asking for so much... I thank you though. Do you really think you still making any sense in this discussion now?

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    I actually wonder if he even ever played WoW, Lokto... since pets definitely can't taunt players and are merely a bit more than "walking DOTs" in that game, with a few CC abilities which wouldn't be different if given to the character, and most of the times would be more efficient if given to the character.

    anytime jean you want to tell us mechanicallyh HOW range classes work without the trinity.. we are all ears :)

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Good luck with a range class when there is no pet or other person to grab the attention of the mob..  :)  Have you ever tried playing a range class in PvP .. ONE on ONE. with no pets or other cc skills?  Let me know how that works out

    Once again you don't make any sense Rydeson... I'm starting to wonder if you even play any MMORPG right now.

    Mage in WoW. Elementalist in GW2. Any mage in Asheron's Call. Runekeeper in LOTRO. Loremaster in the same game. Hunter in the same game. Powerful ranged classes without the need of a pet. And even hunter in WoW or rangers in GW2, if we are talking about PvP, are not really relying on the pet "grabbing attention", since a player can't be taunted.

    So what in the hell are you talking about? Never been kited to death by a frost mage without any pet? Never been nuked into oblivion by a skilled Elementalist? Then maybe you should try to play MMOs a bit more instead of just posting about them on a forum.

    Do you read jean?  Really.. what part of "NO OTHER CC SKILLS" don't you get..  I have a maxed mage too and that mage is NOTHING in PvP without his frost CC abilities..   Keep up..  Range DPS only works when you can stay at range.. You lose that gap, you lose your life..  It isnt' that hard..

    So you basically contradict yourself... nice one.

    I'm still waiting for your theories about tanking ranged characters.

    And nothing in your nonsense says ranged classes without trinity are not working. You're basically biting your own ankles in your posts.

    WTF?  hahaha the only one here contradicting anything is Lok telling us he loves RANGE class, but hate trinity.. lmao

    Now that is a good trick.. especially with smart AI's..

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gibbonici

    My problem with the trinity is that it's become the *only* interdependency between characters, and has made MMOs that are built around it tedious.

    I'd even go as far as to say that the trinity is what has made a lot of people prefer soloing to grouping, simply because soloing can often demand more thought over how you approach a fight than steamrolling in with a trinity group. That depends a lot on the game of course, as many seem to be taking the point of soloing away by making it too easy.

    Where games like GW2 went wrong is in just dumping the trinity without working dependencies in elsewhere. I think the way forward isn't dropping the trinity altogether but developing an AI and character skills to create new and more interesting ways of characters working together.

    Gib, I'm someone who enjoys playing Hunter/Ranger/Archer type classes, so you've pretty much nailed why I prefer solo play over the trinity group thing in modern MMOs. Just firing at the mob fixated on the tank usually means a lot less activity and a lot less decision making for me. Heading out there with my pet and managing both dps and aggro in WoW was a far more engaging experience than my group experiences. The same with Aion, especially during raids.

    I find it ironic that you say you dislike the trinity and yet your favorite class was the Hunter.

    Ha Ha .. me too .. Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol

    The only ranged class I played that had a pet was the one in WOW. The only reason I used the pet was because there was really no option for archer without a pet. I even mentioned in another recent post that I went engineer instead of the pet ranged in GW2.

    But... hey, if this is some kind of odd victory for you two, more power to you.  image 

     

     

    No, not a victory, just an observation that the class you enjoyed the most was in itself an embodiment of the complete trinity.

    See, I think a lot of people (This is not directed specifically at you) are mis-associating their memories with regard to the trinity. It wasn't a bad mechanic. (That's subjective, I know) as it's made out to be. But other factors are being mixed in. 

    Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better.

    What I notice is that you seem to assume several reasons of why people dislike trinity, or rather grew tired of it, based on your own beliefs of what those people must be.

    GW2 proved nothing, there are still over 2.5 million people logging into that game every week. You'll have to find better.

    That isn't verified. As a matter of fact there have been two people who speak chinese who say that it isn't what Google translated it to be. Those numbers aren't even posted anymore on that site.  They have been replaced with Youtube and Facebook hits. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
    I don't have any problem with it.  I think, in general, it helps people to play the role they want and contributes to strategy.  While I'm sure there are some people who love to play every roll I don't think that would be the majority of people.  Also combat from what I've seen in combat systems without the trinity is usually much more chaotic with minimal strategy.  In general this is one of the examples I see of people pushing for change or knocking games that still use a mechanic that does not need to be changed in the first place and that works.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
     

    As with many of the truly wonderful posts you've been crafting for us recently, you are either making wild assumptions about people or not even reading the posts. I mean, you are replying right below where I said I don't enjoy firing at a mob fixated on a tank, so where do you get that I did that with the ranged classes I played?

    You also assumed either every ranged class is like the WOW hunter or that I preferred that particular one over the dozen or so other ranged classes I've played, none of which have a pet.

    AND you assumed that since I liked a class that managed a variety of roles that it in any way means I'm being hypocritical by showing a dislike for a dedicated contrived taunt character. If the mobs are focusing on me when I'm solo, it's not because I'm casting Magic NeenerNeener IV at them, it's because I'm stabbing them with knives.

    "Pet TANKS and he pew pews.. yet he dislikes the trinity..  POT meet KETTTLE..lol"

    Which you follow up with a post that ignores everything everyone has said about their issues with it and present that they really do like the mechanic, they just don't realize it.

    It's just an observation that you really don't know much about either the posters or the subject matter, which is why I raise a glass to you and wish you the best. imageimage

     

    See,  I even raised a second one for you this time.

     

    Ok aside from some ad-hom stuff and some back pedaling, your post makes almost no sense. So, getting rid of the ad-hom stuff from your post....The stuff about my posting history and my personal assumptions, I only see two things.

    1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.

    the 2nd is you trying to cleverly rephrase what I said to use it in your argument. You conveniently omitted the part where I said 

    "Such as the people who say they hate the trinity because they hate waiting for a tank to do dungeons. Well, that's not exactly a problem with the mechanic but one with the player base. And GW2 proved that specific problem is not a direct result of the trinity. Waiting on players is no better."

     

     

     

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    I believe the OP deserves a definitive answer to his question so...

    Baby Raptor Jesus decided

    Take it up with him.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.

    Simple. Traps, snare and a bit of kiting. You played vanilla WOW, so you know that open world mobs rarely if ever called for aid, so unless you screwed up, you were almost exclusively fighting only one mob.

    Really, Gamer, play some of the other MMOs. Playing a ranged character with a pet is the exception, not the rule. Not only is it possible, it's actually common, as each of the games I listed in my last reply has archers without pets.  If you have some time, try Asheron's Call. Ranged character with no stun/root/mezz, no pets, and no traps. It's not only doable but it can be incredibly fun.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • gylnnegylnne South Hutchinson, KSPosts: 320Member
    Originally posted by Brenelael

    It has to do with making MMOs even more solo friendly. If there is no interdependence between classes than there is no need to group at all except for raiding. This has taken MMOs even further down the road to single player games.

    Bren

    Agree.

    It seems all game developers want these days is to make easy mode single player games and forget the group mechanic.

  • gylnnegylnne South Hutchinson, KSPosts: 320Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Sorry - has nothing to do with solo-friendly (that is a red herring argument). It has to do with the AI getting more complex with mobs and the set roles of the Trinity being limiting (play-wise for players). There is noting inherently wrong with the Trinity except players do prefer what is more comfortable to them rather than trying something new.

     

    The trinity was of a time when the MOB AI was limited (all they could do was increase XP of the mob or give them one strong attack, buff, debuff, etc). AI's can be more complex and there are fights in GW2, for example in higher  level Fractals, where a Trinity group would be absolutely wiped out with one hit.

    For the sake of discussion please provide me with a link  where a developer actually has said this and not just your opinion.

    Thank  you.:)

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    1st. For someone to say they enjoyed the Hunter Class but hated the tanking pet (The class's defining function) is very difficult to swallow given the context of this thread. If I were interested, I'd want to hear more detail on how someone can say they liked the hunter but not the tanking pet because I too played a hunter in Vanilla and TBC. I certainly have many many quesitons about that. But ultimately, That conversation would not get us anywhere.

    Simple. Traps, snare and a bit of kiting. You played vanilla WOW, so you know that open world mobs rarely if ever called for aid, so unless you screwed up, you were almost exclusively fighting only one mob.

    Really, Gamer, play some of the other MMOs. Playing a ranged character with a pet is the exception, not the rule. Not only is it possible, it's actually common, as each of the games I listed in my last reply has archers without pets.  If you have some time, try Asheron's Call. Ranged character with no stun/root/mezz, no pets, and no traps. It's not only doable but it can be incredibly fun.

    I have news for you.. but using CC and movement skills are part of ROLE classes.. Rather it be tanking, cc or kiting..  All you are doing is switching out one role for another.. KITING / snaring is the new tanking..   Been there, done that..  Sorry, but your logic fails.. :)

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