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Whats up with the end game mentality i see alrdy...

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  • KingAlkaiserKingAlkaiser New York, NYPosts: 50Member

    OP you can thank World of warcraft for this "endgame mentality" as FF14 ARR looks into WoW for inspiration for their game and "WoW standards".   no offense to any but its true.

     

    I also played FF11 and also feel the same way, I played for 6 years and endgame was more after thought because of the journey to endgame was like a adventure.......like a rpg.  Nowadays everyone tries to copy WoW and this has become the standard which many mmorpg copy from.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    - OP

    Welcome to linear, lvl progression based games. It's one of the bi-products of this form of game design and has been so even before WoW. As long as a game is structured this way, it will only get worse with each new game. Because as each new game gets made, more and more people have already done that race to 'endgame'. Many are tired of it, and just wanna get it out of the way.

    This is an issue that has been talked about for over a decade now, and is a large part of why newer MMOs are trying to abandon these older game designs, and start experimenting with new approaches.

  • QuorinaQuorina Hamilton, ONPosts: 41Member
    Originally posted by Fish_Tacos

    It's just that there are different people with different psychological types. People who are into RP and exploration probably have different psychologies than min/maxers and hardcore raiders. An introverted intuitive type will be different than an extroverted judgmental type (just offering examples from one psych type test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keirsey_Temperament_Sorter ).

     

    It's funny that you bring that up, because I've always wondered how our personality affects the way we play. Personally, as an INFP, I like both the journey and the end-game to be good.

    I remember playing in Vanilla WoW and it took me 3 months to get to end-game. I was mostly messing around in 40-49 BGs as a 49 mage killing all the Alliance in sight in Arathi Basin. People thought I was weird spending so much time in low-level BGs, but I didn't. It was probably the best time I've ever had in a MMO. Ever.

    Now? Everything is rush, rush, rush, and I agree with the person on top of page 4 who blamed WoW, the granddaddy of themeparks, for this mentality. That's pretty much where it started I noticed, around the time of WotLK, but perhaps even during TBC. 

    Sometimes people accuse me of "rushing" when I play a game a little too much and reach end-game a little too early. Happened in SWTOR. Not my fault that they made the journey way too short and easy.

    But all in all, this rush to end-game mentality makes me uncomfortable, but it is a fact of life in a themepark MMO. I won't be rushing to end-game in FFXIV, and if some guild or whatever doesn't like it? They can KMFA!

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon

    Why is it a problem if I'm in a guild that enjoys progressing through the hardest content in the game?

    That doesn't mean we are rushing to do said content, but that is our goal.  

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 490Member Uncommon

    Ugh, that's another phrase I don't like.  The phrase "geared for endgame".  The word "geared" came from WoW and its stupid tiers and gear grind.  WTF happened to just zerging non instanced monsters in zones and in dungeons where there weren't any player caps?  I mean, there's nothing better than just sending wave after wave of bodies at huge dragons or whatever monster and just watching hundreds of people take em down.  Now you get this lame 10 man, 20 man instanced raid crap.  Bleh, lets go back to old school mechanics, where everything wasn't about the little circle of 10 people fully tweaked out in their T5 gear running the same dungeon at 6:30pm everyweek because all the other dungeons they are locked out of blah blah.

     

    Dungeon locks, gear grinding, it all comes from WoW and contributes to the end game mentality for raiding that the OP is talking about.  They need to make the way to endgame hard as hell, like make it take months.  That'll take people's minds off endgame and make em worry about what's in front of them.

    image
  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by Chrisbox

    Why is it a problem if I'm in a guild that enjoys progressing through the hardest content in the game?

    That doesn't mean we are rushing to do said content, but that is our goal.  

    It is a problem because not everyone is in a guild that does endgame content.  So their jealousy fuels their rage against the "endgame mentality", then they name drop tropes like "WoW did it" despite the fact that endgame has been a focus in MMORPG's since EQ1, was through FFXI, and just because leveling (which was always something many people did to get to endgame) is shorter these days they claim the focus has shifted.

     

    It hasn't.

     

    Some people enjoy endgame, some either don't or can't.  However they (developers) have always catered to endgame players, the alternative would be a never ending leveling grind (with constant cap raises), or an empty sandbox void.  People play games to have something to do, and for many leveling is not only not enough to satisfy their time in game but it is not something they look forward to.

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    I don't see why these two things (planning for endgame and 'enjoying the journey')are mutually exclusive. I'm excited about the game, so I'm already planning out how I'm going to go about my leveling 'journey' and speculating about how to best end up in a good position for endgame content. That doesn't mean I have to spend every moment of gameplay watching my xp bar instead of enjoying the atmosphere or something. If anything, because I already have a plan, I can spend less time bumbling around to figure out the games systems, and more time enjoying the game. Do I really have to point out that planning is actually *fun* in its own way for someone who is excited about the game?
  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by time007

    Ugh, that's another phrase I don't like.  The phrase "geared for endgame".  The word "geared" came from WoW and its stupid tiers and gear grind.  WTF happened to just zerging non instanced monsters in zones and in dungeons where there weren't any player caps?  I mean, there's nothing better than just sending wave after wave of bodies at huge dragons or whatever monster and just watching hundreds of people take em down.  Now you get this lame 10 man, 20 man instanced raid crap.  Bleh, lets go back to old school mechanics, where everything wasn't about the little circle of 10 people fully tweaked out in their T5 gear running the same dungeon at 6:30pm everyweek because all the other dungeons they are locked out of blah blah.

     

    Dungeon locks, gear grinding, it all comes from WoW and contributes to the end game mentality for raiding that the OP is talking about.  They need to make the way to endgame hard as hell, like make it take months.  That'll take people's minds off endgame and make em worry about what's in front of them.

    So just do FATE?

     

    They are a lot more challenging than most EQ1/FFXI zergable content because they all scale depending on the number of players, but they still allow for it.

     

    That is exactly how they are designed, you can totally zerg them.  Most of us don't like zerging as much at endgame (and even in EQ1/FFXI we preferred to gear ourselves and rely on smaller groups to take down the same HNM/World bosses).  We prefer more challenging content (though I agree I am not a fan of low player capped content, and prefer large scale raiding).

     

    I am also vehemently opposed to lockouts at endgame, and "dailies" which imo are the real problem in today's endgames.  Luckily I don't see ARR having either of those, as 1.0 did not.

  • KingAlkaiserKingAlkaiser New York, NYPosts: 50Member
    Originally posted by time007

    Ugh, that's another phrase I don't like.  The phrase "geared for endgame".  The word "geared" came from WoW and its stupid tiers and gear grind.  WTF happened to just zerging non instanced monsters in zones and in dungeons where there weren't any player caps?  I mean, there's nothing better than just sending wave after wave of bodies at huge dragons or whatever monster and just watching hundreds of people take em down.  Now you get this lame 10 man, 20 man instanced raid crap.  Bleh, lets go back to old school mechanics, where everything wasn't about the little circle of 10 people fully tweaked out in their T5 gear running the same dungeon at 6:30pm everyweek because all the other dungeons they are locked out of blah blah.

     

    Dungeon locks, gear grinding, it all comes from WoW and contributes to the end game mentality for raiding that the OP is talking about.  They need to make the way to endgame hard as hell, like make it take months.  That'll take people's minds off endgame and make em worry about what's in front of them.

     

    this guy clearly gets it and read the OP first post about it.

    maybe people forgot and have derailed a bit but:

    /quote

    "Why are people thinking about end game before its even released yet?

    Back in 2003 when ffxi came out, end game was an after thought. All the expention pacts that came out for the first 1-2 years was focused for all levels. There was leterally tons of stuff to do from 1-75. I played ffxi for prolly a year before I even got into end-game. That game for a long time was about the journey not the endgame."

     

    This is exactly how a lot of us feel and were discussing tho.  no one flaming WoW but it needs credit were its due, and yes they are looking into WoW "standards" which was heavily involved around rushing and zerging to endgame as fast as possible/skipping everything in between and be all about tiers/etc as the "starting point of the game and all focus"

    nothing against this style but its been bleed and done to death. /endquote

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by KingAlkaiser
    Originally posted by time007

    Ugh, that's another phrase I don't like.  The phrase "geared for endgame".  The word "geared" came from WoW and its stupid tiers and gear grind.  WTF happened to just zerging non instanced monsters in zones and in dungeons where there weren't any player caps?  I mean, there's nothing better than just sending wave after wave of bodies at huge dragons or whatever monster and just watching hundreds of people take em down.  Now you get this lame 10 man, 20 man instanced raid crap.  Bleh, lets go back to old school mechanics, where everything wasn't about the little circle of 10 people fully tweaked out in their T5 gear running the same dungeon at 6:30pm everyweek because all the other dungeons they are locked out of blah blah.

     

    Dungeon locks, gear grinding, it all comes from WoW and contributes to the end game mentality for raiding that the OP is talking about.  They need to make the way to endgame hard as hell, like make it take months.  That'll take people's minds off endgame and make em worry about what's in front of them.

     

    this guy clearly gets it and read the OP first post about it.

    maybe people forgot and have derailed a bit but:

    /quote

    "Why are people thinking about end game before its even released yet?

    Back in 2003 when ffxi came out, end game was an after thought. All the expention pacts that came out for the first 1-2 years was focused for all levels. There was leterally tons of stuff to do from 1-75. I played ffxi for prolly a year before I even got into end-game. That game for a long time was about the journey not the endgame."

     

    This is exactly how a lot of us feel and were discussing tho.  no one flaming WoW but it needs credit were its due, and yes they are looking into WoW "standards" which was heavily involved around rushing and zerging to endgame as fast as possible/skipping everything in between and be all about tiers/etc as the "starting point of the game and all focus"

    nothing against this style but its been bleed and done to death. /endquote

    There was NOTHING good about FFXI's "content" before cap.  BCNM, missions, unlocking advanced jobs, they were all a grind, they were all easy, and maybe you played for them but if it weren't for the promise of endgame myself and many others would never have made through the long monotonous grind of the same mobs, in the same few zones that was pre-endgame FFXI.

     

    I was camping Kings well within a year of launch of FFXI, I killed my first HNM within 6 months.  You know nothing about FFXI, and yet you keep preaching as if just because you didn't do endgame that it was an afterthought to the game's design.

     

    By the time NA players were even allowed onto servers JP players were doing endgame 24/7.  Endgame was a central focus of FFXI.

  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZenTaoYingYang
    I wish I can stop caring and not post replies, because most of the people are mis-informed to an extent. there are mis-translation, mis-quotations and selective phrasing everywhere that makes the game different 180 degrees. I am sure once all settled people will be enjoying the game and will forget all the stupid stuff said here and there.

    This is a good point.  Once the initial WoW/EQ/EQ2 mentality of Raid or Die! people realize the game isn't JUST about raiding or JUST endgame, either most of them will leave or they will adapt and in a few months from launch the game will have a nice solid community base, just like FFXI.  I can't wait.  Good thing is, I'm in a nice guild that isn't just focused on endgame but more on just playing the game so that from launch I will be among like minded folks.

    image
  • k11keeperk11keeper Kalama, WAPosts: 1,056Member Uncommon

    To answer the OP question it's very simple. For anyone who has played an MMO and reached endgame and participated in endgame to the fullest endgame has and always will be the most challenging, fun, and rewarding content.

    I like many others took a long time to get my first 75 in ffxi (a few months before CoP release and started at launch so about 8-9 months). That said by the time ToAU came out I had a few lvl 75s and had been doing plenty of sky, dynamis, Limbus, HNMS, and KS99s. Though I did make great friends my first go to 75 and did enjoy the journey the vast majority of my great memories are killing giant endgame bosses and completing brand new content as it was released. I did love CoP though because it brought challenging content to lower lvls and opened up opportunities for me to use jobs I didn't have to 75 for rewarding content that wasn't bland overdone BCNMs for gil. After about the 500th time of royal jelly it stops being challenging or fun....

    So with that said I can imagine that this go around it will be similar. I will enjoy my journey as best I can on the way to lvl cap but the majority of my time, energy, and overall fun times will happen while participating in endgame.

  • stringboistringboi Atlanta, GAPosts: 394Member
    End game is going to be where you spend a good portion of your playing....why wouldnt people worry about end game material? 
  • FoxyShoxzyFoxyShoxzy Dallas, TXPosts: 119Member
    Originally posted by k11keeper

    So with that said I can imagine that this go around it will be similar. I will enjoy my journey as best I can on the way to lvl cap but the majority of my time, energy, and overall fun times will happen while participating in endgame.

     

    Sounds about right :)

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    I think players are vastly underestimating the time and work that will be required to be raid ready.

    You'll need to have leveled a Job. Not a class but a job, that's going to require minimally leveling 2 classes. From what I've seen Crafting is going to be a big part of endgame too, So I assume you'll probably need to have some crafting classes leveled along side.

    All crafting is tradeable.  A person does not have to have a craft themselves in order to get crafted gear/materia melds/repairs etc.

     

    A job requires leveling one class to 15, and your other subclass to whatever level the abilities are that you want to borrow from them in order to play optimally.

     

    It then requires you to finish the main storyline in order to unlock endgame contents, do entry dungeons (AV/CC/possibly others), Primals (Ifrit, Garuda, Titan) to farm for gear, and then you hit the current endgame at launch consisting of Relic Weapon quests for each job, and Labyrinth of Bahamut.

     

    Relic Weapon quests requires you to do quite a bit of different endgame activities (extreme versions of primals/dungeons, and certain other things).  It takes quite a bit of work.

     

    We don't know how large the 8-person wing of Labyrinth of Bahamut available at launch is, but it is supposed to be very difficult and will likely cater mostly to people who have already completed relic weapons.

     

    How long this will take legacy characters many of which already have all 50's is unknown.  However Legacy people have Titan Extreme, possibly relic weapons +1, and LoB to do with Crystal Tower coming in November (and hopefully other endgame activities, especially if the entry wing to Crystal Tower is geared toward casual players).

     

    This game NEEDS a variety of endgame content (both casual and hardcore), and to regularly provide it in order to keep some people subscribed.  Yoshida knows it and has acknowledged it.  If you don't like endgame it is not your concern, it is however the concern of the people who matter: those who develop the game.

     

    SE also has a good track record of endgame content additions from FFXI, and I would consider their record with FFXIV 1.0 pretty decent considering the limitations of fixing the game as much as they could while still hampered by a faulty engine and also developing ARR alongside it.

     

    Originally posted by Dihoru
    What happened : Themeparks. If all games were sandboxes then there would be no endgame mentality because there would be no endgame.

    Yes what a lazy solution to a problem.  Not enough content?  Don't worry we have NO CONTENT!!  YAY!

     

    Hope you like PvP and role playing because that's all you've got to look forward to forever.  Oh and lots of cash shop crap to help you immerse yourself in your psuedo reality!  Second Life best MMORPG of all time!!!!!!!!

    It may be an impression I got from soemthign i read, because I can't find it, but didn't SE say that crafting was going to be important for endgame? And I don't mean that just everything being tradeable, but that raiding itself was going to involve crafting? Like high end mats being part of loot drops and such. I say that because it could just have been a hypothetical conversation so I can't verify it. 

     

    Also, I thought the job leveled with the classes, but you still had to level at least 2 classes at a minimum.

    Yes it will have that, but none of that requires you yourself to have the craft leveled.

     

    There are benefits economically and to convenience to level up crafts.  However it is not necessary for your own progression of your battle job

     

    Jobs do level the class it is equipped to, but if you aren't going to play Dragoon there is no reason you have to level Lancer past 34 when you get the last cross class ability (well there are achievements etc.).

     

    I doubt most fresh start players will even have started working on their first relic weapons by November.  But that isn't the point, it is about keeping those that do, and the many legacy players content with content.

    Ahh, yes, the legacy player issue, I get. and for them, focusing on endgame right away is a legit concern. But I'll speak for me as a new player. I think I have a lot ahead of me before I start worrying about raiding. Although I fully intend to.

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by Chrisbox

    Why is it a problem if I'm in a guild that enjoys progressing through the hardest content in the game?

    That doesn't mean we are rushing to do said content, but that is our goal.  

    It is a problem because not everyone is in a guild that does endgame content.  So their jealousy fuels their rage against the "endgame mentality", then they name drop tropes like "WoW did it" despite the fact that endgame has been a focus in MMORPG's since EQ1, was through FFXI, and just because leveling (which was always something many people did to get to endgame) is shorter these days they claim the focus has shifted.

     

    It hasn't.

     

    Some people enjoy endgame, some either don't or can't.  However they (developers) have always catered to endgame players, the alternative would be a never ending leveling grind (with constant cap raises), or an empty sandbox void.  People play games to have something to do, and for many leveling is not only not enough to satisfy their time in game but it is not something they look forward to.

    Basically /thread ^

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • Fish_TacosFish_Tacos LisbonPosts: 19Member
    Originally posted by Quorina
    Originally posted by Fish_Tacos

    It's just that there are different people with different psychological types. People who are into RP and exploration probably have different psychologies than min/maxers and hardcore raiders. An introverted intuitive type will be different than an extroverted judgmental type (just offering examples from one psych type test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keirsey_Temperament_Sorter ).

     

    It's funny that you bring that up, because I've always wondered how our personality affects the way we play. Personally, as an INFP, I like both the journey and the end-game to be good.

    I remember playing in Vanilla WoW and it took me 3 months to get to end-game. I was mostly messing around in 40-49 BGs as a 49 mage killing all the Alliance in sight in Arathi Basin. People thought I was weird spending so much time in low-level BGs, but I didn't. It was probably the best time I've ever had in a MMO. Ever.

    Now? Everything is rush, rush, rush, and I agree with the person on top of page 4 who blamed WoW, the granddaddy of themeparks, for this mentality. That's pretty much where it started I noticed, around the time of WotLK, but perhaps even during TBC. 

    Sometimes people accuse me of "rushing" when I play a game a little too much and reach end-game a little too early. Happened in SWTOR. Not my fault that they made the journey way too short and easy.

    But all in all, this rush to end-game mentality makes me uncomfortable, but it is a fact of life in a themepark MMO. I won't be rushing to end-game in FFXIV, and if some guild or whatever doesn't like it? They can KMFA!

    Haha! I'm an INFP, too. It is pretty rare in Western cultures, but there tend to be more in East Asian cultures according to some papers I read on it. Sorry, no links. I'm lazy and it's late for me. 

     

    But yeah, I think it would be an interesting research topic. Can't get into it much now, but I've thought about it a lot as well.

     

    I bet you can find certain types who tend to gravitate toward positions of guild leadership, hardcore raiding, etc. I'm sure it's not all cut and dried, but I think there would be some "tendencies" that would be statistically significant. 

     

    Basically, I believe this is the "answer" to the OP, so there is really no reason to argue about who is right or wrong. I don't think we can blame WoW either -- unless, well, I think WoW opened up the overall population of gamers literally by the millions and brought in a much more mainstream crowd. That's not looking down mind you. It's just saying there is a much broader segment of the population playing mmorpgs now, so a broader spectrum of personality types probably plays because of WoW.

     

    For example, original rpgs were played pen and paper. Probably not an "end game" mentality there. Certain types of people were players, certain types game masters. Things (in terms of overall rpg player base and demographics) have obviously changed since then from the days of table top Dungeons and Dragons to WoW  MOP and beyond to be much more inclusive of general society at large with all of its personality types and duly reflecting society's general values.

    image
  • k11keeperk11keeper Kalama, WAPosts: 1,056Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zeddakis
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by KingAlkaiser

    OP you can thank World of warcraft for this "endgame mentality" as FF14 ARR looks into WoW for inspiration for their game and "WoW standards".   no offense to any but its true.

     

    I also played FF11 and also feel the same way, I played for 6 years and endgame was mroe after thought because of the journey to endgame was like a adventure.......like a rpg.  Nowadays everyone tries to copy WoW and this has become the standard which many mmorpg copy from.

    I always see people like you who are SO PROUD it took you years to reach endgame in FFXI.  That wasn't the case for all of us, and FFXI had a ton of endgame options which is what kept most of us happy.

     

    You have low standards if all you need is a super long level grind (made even longer by your inability to EXP efficiently apparently).

     

    <-- All 75's while earning a Master's and starting my first business (RoZ/CoP era, aka the golden age of FFXI).  Oh and I raided the hell out of endgame in FFXI (SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than just leveling, too bad you didn't enjoy it)

     

     

     

    FFXI was designed just as much for endgame players, as it was for casuals like you.  In fact if you look at content additions it was designed MUCH MORE for people "like me" who enjoyed endgame than you "smell the roses" sit in Jeuno with your LFG flag up for 2 months and call it "the best game of your life" crowd.  I saw plenty of players like you, but the game catered to us more.

    Reading all your posts here I am just trying to figure out if you are a jerk in real life or if you just play one on the internet.


    Though the tone in his posts can be a bit abrasive with the caps and all. I have to agree with his overall premise. People brag about how long it took them to reach 75 in ffxi and then didn't even really participate in endgame. Sorry to burst your bubble but the vast majority of ffxi was designed for lvl 75 players. Though the journey was long it was because of the grind of leveling not because it was filled with tons of enjoyable content.

    I feel bad for people that spent years playing ffxi and all they did was get to rank 6 and lvl a job or two to 75. Xping was about the most mind numbingly boring part of ffxi.

    " In fact if you look at content additions it was designed MUCH MORE for people "like me" who enjoyed endgame than you "smell the roses" sit in Jeuno with your LFG flag up for 2 months and call it "the best game of your life" crowd.  I saw plenty of players like you, but the game catered to us more."

    This is pretty much how I feel in a nutshell.

  • KirkisKirkis Bloomingdale, NJPosts: 18Member Uncommon

    I really don't see how FFXI took people years to level one job up, espically if you started the game at North American Release. Everyone and their mother was trying to group up to level their job that they wanted. was always people out looking for parties even in the later stages when not as many people were looking for group it still wasn't that hard to get a group going. my first job I made it to 75 in 3 weeks, of course I played a white mage lol but even still, with all the groups that i got into and the different areas i went to for leveling, I just happened to take notes on What jobs were with me, and what I felt was faster exp than other areas. So leveling up the rest of the jobs to 75 was cake since knowing what I felt was good exp areas and created my own groups. Rank Missions were not that hard long as you had people with you that just didn't try to rush rush rush and aggro everything in sight as well as played with a level head instead of freaking out over the littlest thing that may have possiliby went wrong.

    I felt there was a good mix of Level 1 to 75 Content  Vs End game. As Expansions came out that ment new zones for the casual players to explore and exp, Beast Masters had new pets to claim, new jobs for the casual players to level and experience, new end game content for the raiders to dominate.  Don't forget too the Signal pearl/Tactics pearl that everyone got that if you leveled up your NPC that allowed you to play around with for a short period of time per day, BCNMs, KSNMs, ect...

    The only thing I felt that hurt the game was Abyssea, That really just made people lazy as hell when it came to leveling. not to mention made that job you just Abyssea burned to max level really weak, No skills capped (unless you previously had jobs that carried some of thoes skills already capped to a degree), quite a few people not knowing or understanding the mechanics of the job they were trying to play because they really never played it, they sat their ass in the middle of the group where a few select people were actually running around doing the killing.

    but thats really my own personal opinion.

    End Game is not the End All of all games, BUT no one should belittle another person because they feel that rushing to end game is not the way to play. like posted earlier by a few people, everyone is different and has their own opinion and play style.

     

    P.S.   I am a Legacy Player, and I will be starting a fresh character. leaving behind my maxed classes/jobs (was never really into crafting so thoes are only mid range). My whole purpose of this is to experience the Storyline of the game though all the quests & main story and such. Then work on end game. That's just the way I feel like doing things =)

     

    Remember Everyone is different, if that wasn't the case then life would be boring and none of us would be able to play MMOs at all cause everyone would be the same damn thing!!!! lol

     

     

    image

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by Zeddakis
    Originally posted by k11keeper
    Originally posted by Zeddakis
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by KingAlkaiser

    OP you can thank World of warcraft for this "endgame mentality" as FF14 ARR looks into WoW for inspiration for their game and "WoW standards".   no offense to any but its true.

     

    I also played FF11 and also feel the same way, I played for 6 years and endgame was mroe after thought because of the journey to endgame was like a adventure.......like a rpg.  Nowadays everyone tries to copy WoW and this has become the standard which many mmorpg copy from.

    I always see people like you who are SO PROUD it took you years to reach endgame in FFXI.  That wasn't the case for all of us, and FFXI had a ton of endgame options which is what kept most of us happy.

     

    You have low standards if all you need is a super long level grind (made even longer by your inability to EXP efficiently apparently).

     

    <-- All 75's while earning a Master's and starting my first business (RoZ/CoP era, aka the golden age of FFXI).  Oh and I raided the hell out of endgame in FFXI (SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than just leveling, too bad you didn't enjoy it)

     

     

     

    FFXI was designed just as much for endgame players, as it was for casuals like you.  In fact if you look at content additions it was designed MUCH MORE for people "like me" who enjoyed endgame than you "smell the roses" sit in Jeuno with your LFG flag up for 2 months and call it "the best game of your life" crowd.  I saw plenty of players like you, but the game catered to us more.

    Reading all your posts here I am just trying to figure out if you are a jerk in real life or if you just play one on the internet.


    Though the tone in his posts can be a bit abrasive with the caps and all. I have to agree with his overall premise. People brag about how long it took them to reach 75 in ffxi and then didn't even really participate in endgame. Sorry to burst your bubble but the vast majority of ffxi was designed for lvl 75 players. Though the journey was long it was because of the grind of leveling not because it was filled with tons of enjoyable content.

    I feel bad for people that spent years playing ffxi and all they did was get to rank 6 and lvl a job or two to 75. Xping was about the most mind numbingly boring part of ffxi.

    " In fact if you look at content additions it was designed MUCH MORE for people "like me" who enjoyed endgame than you "smell the roses" sit in Jeuno with your LFG flag up for 2 months and call it "the best game of your life" crowd.  I saw plenty of players like you, but the game catered to us more."

    This is pretty much how I feel in a nutshell.

    You didn't burst my bubble. I didn't play FFXI or FFXIV. I have been interested in playing FFXIV though and just thought this looked like an interesting post to read. I understand that differrent players are going to play a game for different reasons and that each has different goals and so none of that bothers me.

    It does bother me when one player thinks what they enjoy about a game is more important or somehow better than what another player enjoys. Murugan's posts have done nothing to make me want to try the game if a large part of the community is like him. I hope for the games sake that is not the case. But maybe I have misunderstood and he is just so strongly defending what he enjoys about the game that it is coming across as belittling what others might enjoy.

    How am I making what I do sound more important or better?  I enjoy it more.  I'm not the one saying

     

    "Man RPG's were great before casuals started playing" or "WoW ruined MMORPG's by adding "casuals" and taking away from the real endgame focus of FFXI and EQ1".  I don't personally care how people play, I like playing with people whether they are the type to rush through leveling in order to be at "the top of their game" in endgame, or are casuals who are just learning the game at their own pace.  I enjoy playing as and with both types of mentality.

     

    You didn't play FFXI so you have no frame of reference for what we are talking about.  Leveling in FFXI consisted of:

    • joining a full group of people and most of the time that meant if you were an undesirable job you could be waiting in town for hours or even days just to make any progress towards level cap.
      • at least half of the jobs were undesirable during large swaths of the leveling curve
    • Going to an EXP camp.  Then grinding for at least 2 hours (leaving before 2 hours was up was considered rude).
      • You grinded the same mob, or at most maybe 2 kinds of mobs for hours upon end.  The goal being to get higher exp chains for more efficient leveling.
      • If you made a mistake you were most often yelled at (as you just cost people sometimes hours of their time)
        • It created a pretty toxic effect on the community actually because people separated into cliques and quickly wrote off people who were not extremely proficient at their roles.
      • People would purposely "train" leveling spots to grief other players.  This could set you back ten minutes while you wait for the mobs to reset, or possibly even hours depending on where you were/what you were doing/how many times you die from it.

     

    Is that what you really want from an MMORPG?  From FFXIV?

     

    This is what King Alkaiser is saying defined the FFXI experience, and what WoW ruined.  The only thing WoW had an effect on was removing forced grouping from all player progression like how it was in FFXI, and shortening the overall leveling curve.

     

    Endgame very much existed in FFXI.  Many of us love FFXI, we just don't have rose colored glasses in thinking that the forced monotony of an extremely long, rigid, forced grouping grind was the cause of what made the game special.  In fact many of us loved FFXI in spite of that.  Yes, most of us opted to "rush through leveling" in FFXI, because it was god awful. 

     

    I even joined static groups (which I normally am against in MMORPG playing) because you just wanted efficiency so you didn't have to spend two more weeks in Crawler's Nest because you were a melee DD or got paired up with a "noob" who couldn't pull fast enough.  It was the epitome of elitism and rotten social exclusion. 

     

    I find it ironic if anything that the people who harken back to those days have the balls to talk about "endgame" ruining people's fun. The very definition of leveling in FFXI was 2nd job, it was more "serious business" than half the lame WoW raid videos you can find of teenagers screaming at eachother.

     

    And you talk about belittling how others play?  Oh man, you can't imagine the depths of arrogance among the community in FFXI leveling.  You were forced to go to ___ because it has the best exp for this range, you had to be X job, with Y subjob, and you better do Z skillchain or we are going to kick you and never group with you again.  Oh wait, we decided skill chains were sub optimal, now you better be X job and be able to spam this one weapon skill for hours.

     

    It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. 

    • A real community where you knew people on your server outside of your guild, and a hyper negative draconian drama pit where people hated eachother and took personal attacks over a video game to an entirely new level.
    • Where you could enjoy the journey because it lasted, but don't think you can enjoy it how you want you have to enjoy it the way the community strictly dictates as being the most efficient and optimal means of "enjoyment".
    • Where endgame wasn't what most people looked forward to, because most could not get through the terrible grind to reach it and simply quit the game.
    Yet despite the part of the game King Alkaizer places upon a golden pedastal, many of us overcame all those factors working against us.  Formed communities, friendships, and shared experiences in endgame activities that we remember to this day.  What we don't remember, is that time we got to chain 50 in crawler's nest.  Or that "noob" the group berated for getting a link at the pull and causing us to wipe and lose two hours (the only two hours of exp we had seen that week due to being an "undesirable" job), no we try to forget that and remember the good times.  That absolutely were not fostered by FFXI's leveling system.
  • ZeddakisZeddakis My Own World, VAPosts: 119Member Uncommon
    Well I have to ask then does the above describe the FFXIV leveling experience also or is it a more friendly and fun experience?
  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by Zeddakis
    Well I have to ask then does the above describe the FFXIV leveling experience also or is it a more friendly and fun experience?

    That is KingKaiser's issue with FFXIV, it is a more friendly experience.

     

    You can make progress as any class, as any job, at any time of day or night by yourself or with a group of others.

     

    You need a group to do certain things like dungeons, and you have to play alongside others to enjoy FATEs.  But you aren't forced to.  Duty Finder allows you to group in a very casual environment, where while encouraged to play efficiently you are less likely to be belittled for still learning.  Your group won't end up wiping for example if you mess up on a boss while in a low level dungeon, at most you can just go back and try it again.  Most people won't complain about it.

     

    They are still getting good XP, a chance at loot, and your mistake does not punish them harshly.

     

    The result is a much better community than FFXI in my opinion.  You are still driven towards grouping (rather than away from it like some other games these days), but you are done so in a way that promotes positive experiences with grouping rather than negative ones.

     

    Because of this FFXIV does not need forced grouping like FFXI.  In FFXI grouping and the community promoted anti-social behavior, and was mostly a negative experience.  However, those of us who weren't driven to quit adapted (and forced others to adapt) because it was the only option we had to play the game (and get to new content, endgame etc. "the fun parts"). 

     

    In my opinion, from what I have seen, people group more in FFXIV and it fosters a better in-game community than any recent MMORPG.  It proves you don't need forced grouping to accomplish this, you just need a game and a community of players that encourages people to enjoy playing together.  The fact is endgame plays a huge role in this, because veteran players enjoy endgame content and want more people to play with and are allowed to help others not already engaged in endgame due to game design with multiple jobs/character and level synch to help as many people progress towards that goal, and play as many roles as they want in current and future content: just like it did in 1.0.  Just like it was a draw in FFXI, and I credit that for both making FFXI a unique experience, and endgame activities whether you play it or not helps people care about their community.

  • ZeddakisZeddakis My Own World, VAPosts: 119Member Uncommon
    OK, thanks for taking the time to make your point clearer in the last couple of posts. I think some of your other posts were lost on me without the FFXI experience. I was getting concerned that a lot of that experience had been carried over to FFXIV, but that doesn't sound like the case. 
  • EvelknievelEvelknievel Ehrenfeld, PAPosts: 2,977Member
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    I dunno... It seems like every mmo since and including DAOC has spawned this end game mentality where everything else is just a tutorial. What happened to the journey?

     

    World of Warcraft spawned a new generation type of mmo players is what happened. If you were part of the MTV generation, Commodore 64 / Atari / Tandy / Crapple / Windows 95-XP well consider yourself old now and the Colecovision / Sega Genesis has been replaced by PS 2,3 and XBOX.

    You still have a handful of the traditional mmorpg gamers prior to WoW, however most of them are all grown up and dealing with a new type of mmo called real life. It's a shame though that the newer generation cannot respect games like we once held dearly and played for the journey and not end game.

  • BigmamajamaBigmamajama Houston, TXPosts: 198Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    I dunno... It seems like every mmo since and including DAOC has spawned this end game mentality where everything else is just a tutorial. What happened to the journey?

    the journy is mostly don alone or in small groups. the essence of massive-multiplayer only is reveald at high-level large-scale raids.

     

    or could be just social anxiety. the endgame is where you play with others, so that's what you focus on. introverts and all that.

     

    to me, as an endgame tank, obviously raiding is "it".

    After reading your post it dawned on me why the trinity is so important to a community.  You said it, "I am a tank"  its who you are its whats you do, and Im sure your very good at it.  And if you are it makes you a very important part of the game to other people.  Yes I said it other people have to rely on people like you.

    What are you in GW2?  Oh I'm pretty much a nobody, the same nobody as everyone else hopping around double tapping to avoid the "smart AI" that doesn't fall for the whole tank thing.

    Developers have created socialism in our games, everyone is equally boring, no one person is needed more than another and even if you suck its okay you can join our group and help us get it done because we don't need you to do anything special or different than anyone else.  And if you die no big deal just lolz zerg back we will all be waiting for you.

    Games like GW2 make exceptional players appear average, nobody even notices or really cares how well you can double tap.

    I think its important to have to rely on other people and their ability to perform a very specific and specialized task that no other class can perform.  Exception players should be in demand, and should be rewarded for their abilities.

    And if you bust out the I hate waiting around for a tank or a healer card then your are simply selfish and self centered, period. 

    Go play a shooter.

     

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