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"I would not call this game a hardcore MMO." - per Terry Michaels

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by KingsField
    Originally posted by Celcius Good. I want the game to get content on a regular basis, have a shot at actually getting income, and not cater to the losers with more then 40 hours a week to play MMOs! "Hardcore" in MMO terms is simply time consuming.
    EverQuest Next will have grinding. They might disguise it as 'find the subclasses' or 'find materials to build your house' or 'improve this faction to get a new ability', but there will be hooks that make it every bit as time consuming as every other MMO. That's the nature of the genre and it will never change.

    The real question is how do you want to spend your time in an MMO? I'd like to spend it in a game that challenges me because overcoming challenge is rewarding. Maybe you just want to crack open a case of beer and let the game play itself, but there are people who value their time more than you do.




    If they can make it interesting and challenging, good for them. If it's interesting and challenging, it won't be a grind, it will be playing a game.

    Hey, it could happen.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • dzoni87dzoni87 BelgradePosts: 541Member

    Im reading this topic for quite some time and couldnt resist to reply to it :D

     

    People here obviously have different terms of "being hardcore". I really dont care about it. Make me an difficult and interesting game which can keep me playing it for more than 3 months and im happy. Plain and simple. Heck, i play LoL for years now, despite it having no long-term reward whatsoever (buying champions, runes etc. doesnt count).

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • VentlusVentlus spanaway, WAPosts: 96Member
    the non hardcore thing doesn't bother me. I think hardcore is becoming more of a time consumption, as in you put a shit ton of hours in a week towards something more so then, like hardcore servers where you die and you can get looted and shit. Which are games i try to avoid, since i like to know my time matters and its not just a pvp fest, personally. but yea in all honesty people have nothing to lose with trying this mmo, its free just wait and see. On the other hand dragon's prophet that was announced at soe as well sucks balls!
  • dzoni87dzoni87 BelgradePosts: 541Member
    Originally posted by Ventlus
    the non hardcore thing doesn't bother me. I think hardcore is becoming more of a time consumption, as in you put a shit ton of hours in a week towards something more so then, like hardcore servers where you die and you can get looted and shit. Which are games i try to avoid, since i like to know my time matters and its not just a pvp fest, personally. but yea in all honesty people have nothing to lose with trying this mmo, its free just wait and see. On the other hand dragon's prophet that was announced at soe as well sucks balls!

    I know that this is a bit off-topic, but Dragon Prophet was made by those Runewaker guys, that made Runes of Magic, which a bit explains its crappy UI, cheap texture design, poor gameplay design etc. EQN was made by the core SOE team, while Dragon Prophet is more of a publishing thing (still beyond me why would they publish that junk, though).

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon
    Not playing this game.  

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • supertouchmesupertouchme corpus christi, TXPosts: 68Member

    If you think you should be able to log on for a couple of hours a week and achieve something "significant" then you're precisely what's wrong with mmos.

    Soccer mom Sally and baby Billy are the minority in the gaming community but it seems like they're in complete control of this genre.

  • seacow1gseacow1g Savannah, GAPosts: 254Member
    Originally posted by lyon812
    Originally posted by seacow1g
    Originally posted by Raven

    So let me ask you a question what in your opinion would make EQN the hardcore game you want?

     

    I've made numerous threads recently on the subject but I'll go ahead and lay some of it out again here:

    I want battles to be hard, but logically so. I want to be able to one-shot a bunny but struggle to take down a wolf unless I got good armor/weapons or magic (or die if i fall prey to a pack of them). I want the world to have some monsters that no matter how strong I or my companions get they always whoop our asses to create a sense of humility. I don't wanna roam the world mindlessly going around without fear about my surroundings. I want to fall to my death or die from a trap if i'm not careful or get mauled by hordes of enemies for going into dark dangerous looking places without preparation or a party. For that matter I want to be afraid of dying!

    I want content to be tiered so that there's content for less skilled or new players to work on and develop their skills but for there to be other areas and monsters to fight that are only available to people with the skill and dedication to make it there. Having a world with people working on different tier content at the same time feels more organic and natural and creates both a sense of awe, curiosity and purpose in people who haven't done the hardest stuff yet and a sense of achievement and superiority for the people that HAVE done it. And when I say tier I really mean tier. As in if you don't have the skill or dedication or w/e you can't get any further but you'll try anyway so that you can improve your skills (and you WILL try if you're having fun).

    I want to be engaged in the quests I undertake. Like actually mentally stimulated. I want to HAVE to read or carefully listen to the questline to have a chance at completing it. I want to solve puzzles and the like. 

    Simply put, I want to be challenged. The game doesn't have to be my level of challenging all throughout but I do want more than 5% of the content to be hard. Otherwise it's just a race to the finish so that I can get to the point where i'm actually having to try.

     

    First-time poster here, but wanted to chime in, because I largely agree with these desires. However, I think there's a component that a lot of people are missing.

    Part of the desire for "hardcore" is that those of us who cut our teeth on Everquest created enduring memories.  Not surprisingly, we're looking for something to recapture those memories, or an experience that's somewhat akin to what we've had before. Perhaps it's just as simple as always looking to find your first love; perhaps it's simply generational. 

    When I look back at my EQ experience, it was defined by two things: Challenge and Community.  I think of how I was grouping by level 6 or 7 because venturing into Blackburrow alone was suicide and making my first friends.I think of the first time someone was giving out free rezzes near the guards, or throwing SoW onto every newbie that ran by and making their life wonderful for 20-odd minutes. Of the first corpse run, and the first time someone helped me get my corpse after falling in said Blackburrow, a favor I repaid a hundredfold later in life.  My first guild, I joined not because they were a hardcore raiding guild, but because they spent entire evenings in GFay just helping people and being generally great people.

    I think of other people's trains in Unrest and the fear and adrenaline that came with running like hell. Of wandering Oasis and getting slammed by level 40 creatures out of nowhere, and learning carefully what areas of the map to navigate.  Of the careful web of interdependency set up by the classes, so that while I always strove towards self-sufficiency, I was always aware that it was a communal game, and that you could accomplish far more in groups than alone. I remember my first Ring/teleport spell (as a druid) and being amazed at the possibilities, because instead of making the world seem smaller, it only seemed more vast.  Of peeking into every nook and cranny and getting my nose bit off multiple times.

    It goes on. I remember camping spawns and feeling such a sense of accomplishment hours later when what I needed dropped, of epic weapon quests that were badges of pride, and how Gates of Discord ate us up and spit us out night after night, honing our coordination and teamwork until we not only beat Uqua, but mastered it. Of farming faction because yes, it made sense that Freeport didn't like my Erudite SK hanging around, so I'd better find a way to make friends. How every newbie experience was unique, and starting an elf or dwarf seemed like a completely different experience--zones, creatures, quests, etc--than my human and erudite characters. And most of all, the freedom to go places and be told by the level of danger, not by the linear quest lines, where I should be. I loved those unique experiences, and played alts of all varieties to experience them.

    Since I retired from EQ, I don't have the time anymore to devote more than 1-2 hours a day. That's fine, really; no complaints here, as I have a family and different priorities. That doesn't stop me from missing it.  I've tried a number of MMOs recently, because I miss the genre. The sad thing? They don't generate memories. 

    I spent a lot of time in SWTOR and GW2.  Multiple max-level characters. Yet I can't remember a single fight, or moment, or tradition, or experience that lingers. It's all ephemeral.  There's nothing to reminisce about;

    Remember that third alt in SWTOR and the exact same soul-crushingly on rails quest path to level up?  I think, wow, what pretty games, and I leveled and crafted and explored and then...there was nothing left to do. No more worlds left to conquer.

    Oh, remember that time in GW2 where I almost died in that one zone with the centaurs?  Or that time when 90 of us spammed our skills at an open-world dragon and I felt like I contributed nothing? It's a beautiful game, but very hollow. 

    I think that's what a lot of the hardcore crowd desire, and are/were hoping for with EQNext: A return to the challenge and community of the original.  I'm not sold that will happen.  Will I still play? Sure. I will give them a well-earned chance. But on some level inside, I'm afraid that it'll turn out to be just like SWTOR and GW2--and at that point, the quiet flame I've been nurturing for all these years for a "true" Everquest Next will probably be snuffed out.

     

     

     I love you, thanks for writing that. I know there's people out there who really understand but it's nice to run into them every once in a while. It's not like I loved every single thing about EQ1 or games like it (FFXI) but they did create memories.

    I don't miss them because I was younger and they were my first MMO (I was actually almost equally content in Vanilla WoW which was my 4th MMO). I miss them because they had a level of difficulty that felt appropriate (albeit frustrating at times) at the time and I felt rewarded and bonded with the community because of it. Difficulty builds retention. It's not like I don't want MMO developers to move forward and try new things. But I feel like it the genre has gone to shit because it's gotten too easy (on the whole, not talking about hardmode raids which make up a minute amount of the gameworld).

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  • noncleynoncley LondonPosts: 648Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    "I would not call this game a hardcore MMO. We want something that is accessible to a larger number of people"

     

    They should have said they were making a children's MMO right off the bat.

     

    It's infuriating. They've learned all the wrong lessons from WoW.

    They've said to themselves: 'Hmmm, WoW made itself simpler and won itself a twelve million subscriber audience'.

    But they didn't look and see that WoW has now made itself so simple that its a bore to play - and that it's lost three million subs because of it.

    Comical pandas = Cereal ad lions.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    "I would not call this game a hardcore MMO. We want something that is accessible to a larger number of people"

     

    They should have said they were making a children's MMO right off the bat.

     

    You know anything can be taken to a level of hardcore. Even legos...

    Casual:

     

    Hardcore:

     

    You just have to understand the difference between hardcore and casual is the frame of mind and the will to follow through, rarely ever is it the tools utilized.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • fefedobsonfefedobson BerlinPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    Not playing this game.  

    I don't know why every game company has to go for the broad audience, it's like they think everyone can win by appealing to casuals.

  • TillerTiller Portland, ORPosts: 4,921Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    "I would not call this game a hardcore MMO. We want something that is accessible to a larger number of people"

     

    They should have said they were making a children's MMO right off the bat.

     

    Because only children are too busy with work and family they don't have 10 hours per day to spend grinding for gear.

    As adults we can spend as much time playing as we want; forget working....give me a laptop and free McDonalds wi-fi and I'm good to go.....all i need is a box in the alley and an extension cord running from the bakery to charge my laptop during my 2 hour power nap. It may take me 3 months of grinding to build my set or epic armor, but who cares? I got plenty of time, and no actual life to speak of.... xD

    image
    SWG pre-cu vet, elder Jedi, elder BH -Bloodfin

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
    I don't think we're ever going to see a AAA mmo that doesn't focus on making the game accessible to as many people as possible for max profits.  Things like Kickstarter are the only way we will really get the mmo's some of us are looking for, because in reality for every person that doesn't want quest markers or would want corpse runs there would be 5-10 teenagers they would lose out on money from who couldn't handle that gampelay element.
  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member
    Originally posted by Margulis
    I don't think we're ever going to see a AAA mmo that doesn't focus on making the game accessible to as many people as possible for max profits.  Things like Kickstarter are the only way we will really get the mmo's some of us are looking for, because in reality for every person that doesn't want quest markers or would want corpse runs there would be 5-10 teenagers they would lose out on money from who couldn't handle that gampelay element.

     

    I wouldnt say that. You can make a product that caters to kids and  I dont care how many kids are playing it, it will get the same respect as Justin Bieber. So if they want to create Bieberquest thats fine, just dont expect gamers over 20 who have any self respect to jump on the boat just because its a commercial product. I think most of us are not totally against commercial products. But even in the gaming world we need to be in adult land from time to time. We want to feel like our toon  has to fight to survive. Not a a pep rally for Selena Gomez. 

  • Originally posted by tank017
    Originally posted by Drakynn
    Originally posted by Fratman
    Originally posted by NagelRitter

    Of course it won't be hardcore. Hardcore implies Darkfall or EVE or something. I don't want that, either.

    Originally posted by Fratman
    It's going to be on the PS4, so we already knew it can't be hardcore. Console and hardcore mmo don't even belong in the same sentence.

    Have you played any of the Souls games?

    Are they mmos? No, I haven't.

    They are not MMOS but they are more hardcore than any MMO out there difficulty wise and very popular.

    I have...and I love them..

     

    Now someone steer away from this childish wussy garbage and make one an MMO.

    THAT would be...the end of my face!  Melted.  A Dark Souls MMO...that's just sick and twisted and I love the idea.  Never happen, but I can dream.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    Exactly the reason why this game will fail so hard. Too easy, I mean accessible = boring. This might just be like Free Realms difficulty.
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  • VentlusVentlus spanaway, WAPosts: 96Member
    Originally posted by Faelsun
    Originally posted by Margulis
    I don't think we're ever going to see a AAA mmo that doesn't focus on making the game accessible to as many people as possible for max profits.  Things like Kickstarter are the only way we will really get the mmo's some of us are looking for, because in reality for every person that doesn't want quest markers or would want corpse runs there would be 5-10 teenagers they would lose out on money from who couldn't handle that gampelay element.

     

    I wouldnt say that. You can make a product that caters to kids and  I dont care how many kids are playing it, it will get the same respect as Justin Bieber. So if they want to create Bieberquest thats fine, just dont expect gamers over 20 who have any self respect to jump on the boat just because its a commercial product. I think most of us are not totally against commercial products. But even in the gaming world we need to be in adult land from time to time. We want to feel like our toon  has to fight to survive. Not a a pep rally for Selena Gomez. 

    what? okay, man people really deluding why people are term'ed casual. Its because of how much time they either put or can put into the game. Not everyone has millions of hours, and respectable mmo that will come out will attempt to cater to everyone. For instance wildstar is gonna be able to played by everyone. People act like a game has to be hardcore only, or just the people posting on forums just need to whine about how games need to cater to only the hardcore, over casual which is probably more likely. 

  • DullahanDullahan Posts: 2,059Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Biskop

    Yeah, shame on SOE for wanting a commercially viable product! After all, they do have a responsibility to provide "hardcore" nolifers with the game of their dreams.

    You know, a game can be "hardcore" (meaning complex, difficult, and rewarding time investment) and yet accesible. For example, the core game mechanics and basic features can be simple and intuitive while high-end content is hard and demanding. A player can then chose which level of difficulty he/she wants to engage.

    But I guess some people still think "hardcore" = long grind + harsh death penalties + tedious mechanics that anyone with a life and a job will shun, and if a game does not abide by those 1999 design standards it is to be considered a kid's game and a WoW clone.

     

    Ya, because hardcore games like EQ1 and Eve never have the potential to last a long time...

    Casual games, especially without some sort of hardcore elements that keep people playing, will never make it in the long run.  Its been the bane of every game since WoW.


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