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Come and play a game with totally advanced AI and frustrating gameplay!

zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member

You know, the boss who time his death attack exactly just to troll your team's healer, baiting the team to a particular corner so to teleport away and unleash the traps on that area, anything you can think of just to make winning impossible and pizzing all players off!

 

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(Note this does not refer to any game in particular)

 

Edit : adding this interesting reply from one of the posters Kuujo about super AI:

"There was a prototype of a game with intelligent AI like this. I don't remember if it was public, but I beta tested it.

Since it was suppose to be intelligent, mobs did everything to survive. You can't even start to imagine how annoying can a game be, if enemy really does everything not to die...

If there were to many players ganking mobs, they called reinforcements... Mobs kept retreating, running, hiding, doing suprise attacks, backstabbing... this shiet was so frustrating it made me want to throw PC out the window.

Mobs have to do stupid things, otherwise there would be no game. It's the same deal with war games. If it was intelligent, no enemy would ever get out of hiding spot, and you would fight one enemy for hours until someone makes mistake like in real war.

You really have no idea what you are asking for..."

The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

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Comments

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Give me something I can pay attention to not something I can rely on muscle memory to do for me while I watch an episode of Family Guy.

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  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Give me something I can pay attention to not something I can rely on muscle memory to do for me while I watch an episode of Family Guy.

    You forget to add that it has to be fun though :)

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Do you think the MMO gaming world is ready for advanced human like AI?

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Of course no one is asking for an unlikable Skynet to be implemented, they really are looking for some variety in combat mechanics so every fight doesn't follow the same pattern and add "some" element of unpredictability.

    Doesn't mean they want totally random behavior, nor do they want the npcs to be unkillable, as that doesn't require any advanced AIs, devs have known how to do that for years. (they let it cheat)

    At the end of the day they still want the PVE be mostly stacked in their favor and no developer is going to design a game where most of the PVE content can't be mastered by the majority of the playerbase.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Of course no one is asking for an unlikable Skynet to be implemented, they really are looking for some variety in combat mechanics so every fight doesn't follow the same pattern and add "some" element of unpredictability.

    Doesn't mean they want totally random behavior, nor do they want the npcs to be unkillable, as that doesn't require any advanced AIs, devs have known how to do that for years. (they let it cheat) At the end of the day they still want the PVE be mostly stacked in their favor and no developer is going to design a game where most of the PVE content can't be mastered by the majority of the playerbase.

    Skynet AI could be fun though. think about it.

     

    NPC that are super intelligent and trying to set players back from winning.

     

    Players like in the movie, would need to come together in order to out smart the computer.

     

    Lots of people here keep asking for more grouping. This could be it.

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  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Do you think the MMO gaming world is ready for advanced human like AI?

    Some elites think that are ready. I just want to have a fun and meaningful MMO.

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    People will quit asap with advanced AI.
    If carebears expect this then join a few pvp matches na dlets see how you love advanced AI.

    Its so overated, with no healers you are going to die so much that the any game that provides this advanced AI will be as frustrated as sucking at PvP.
    Unless you like to die alot and spend all your cash to repair your gear.

    Did no care to vote, stupid poll if you ask me.
    maybe add challeging AI ? not faceroll but inbetween ?

  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Of course no one is asking for an unlikable Skynet to be implemented, they really are looking for some variety in combat mechanics so every fight doesn't follow the same pattern and add "some" element of unpredictability.

    Doesn't mean they want totally random behavior, nor do they want the npcs to be unkillable, as that doesn't require any advanced AIs, devs have known how to do that for years. (they let it cheat) At the end of the day they still want the PVE be mostly stacked in their favor and no developer is going to design a game where most of the PVE content can't be mastered by the majority of the playerbase.

    I am aware that unkillable npcs are ridiculous, but unfortunately, judging from recent posts of these years and months, certain players actually want to have such an AI. It gives them the accomplishment when killing said impossible to kill boss, and the rest of the peons can just lick the remaining dirt.

     

    That is why, even up to how, developers are emphasizing on fun, which equals majority of the mobs/content with dumb AI. Even raid boss has a set of pattern to kill them, and once mastered, is still dumb AI. Of course it will be a masterpiece if there is a game that has super AI and fun gameplay, and that game will deserved to be bragged in forums and reviews.

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    People will quit asap with advanced AI.
    If carebears expect this then join a few pvp matches na dlets see how you love advanced AI.

    Its so overated, with no healers you are going to die so much that the any game that provides this advanced AI will be as frustrated as sucking at PvP.
    Unless you like to die alot and spend all your cash to repair your gear.

    Did no care to vote, stupid poll if you ask me.
    maybe add challeging AI ? not faceroll but inbetween ?

    Well, that should be the 3rd choice? No?

     

    Anyway, if players really want advanced AI, like you suggested, they should just join a PVP game, where winning and losing means skills (and money for pay to win games) rather than remembering a set of patterns to kill a boss.

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Do you think the MMO gaming world is ready for advanced human like AI?

    Do you really think anyone assumes human like AI? Do you expect the mobs start talking to you? No? Ok.. maybe then it is not human like.

    To advance the actual state of AI is really not a big problem, because the acutal state of AI stays in most cases the same since 30 years. VERY BASIC STUFF.

    And i think, not only MMO gaming, but gaming in general would be ready for more advanced AI. And i don't talk about talking and inventing Mobs.. because yeah... that would be scary.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by zwei2
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Do you think the MMO gaming world is ready for advanced human like AI?

    Some elites think that are ready. I just want to have a fun and meaningful MMO.

    Skynet AI can be fun.

     

    Imagine having a few leaders in whatever faction you are on. Using WoW since its popular.

     

    Lets say you are Alliance. Your guild has a few very good tactical leaders, along with 3 other guilds.

    Your leaders come together to make a plan to deal with a group of elite Zandar Trolls who have decided to raid your faction city and destroy your forces.

    You all decide you need somebody to distract the Boss elite. So your tactical leaders send a group of Tanks, in a certain class pattern to attack the boss with healers being disguised in the mix to kite tank the boss away so the other tactical leaders can send a force of players to take down the lesser mobs quick enough to send support to the tank kiters who are dealing with the boss.

    Your DPS has to master using CC to control the field to make it more stable for your tanks to do their duty in tank kiting and CCers are needed to help the tanks keep the hidden healers alive when needed.

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Do you think the MMO gaming world is ready for advanced human like AI?

    Do you really think anyone assumes human like AI? Do you expect the mobs start talking to you? No? Ok.. maybe then it is not human like.

    To advance the actual state of AI is really not a big problem, because the acutal state of AI stays in most cases the same since 30 years. VERY BASIC STUFF.

    And i think, not only MMO gaming, but gaming in general would be ready for more advanced AI. And i don't talk about talking and inventing Mobs.. because yeah... that would be scary.

    doesnt a Skyrim mod already talk to players?

    image

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member

    AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

    Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member
    An advance AI would kill us all! In a millisecond it will calculate your DPS, check your usual spell rotation and react accordingly... by running away.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by BTrayaL
    Baiting poll with dumb options, that should be reported (if I cared enough, beyond posting this).

    When the OP's poll creation shows a definitive bias, you vote opposite the POV he wants to "push".

    It's really the only way to handle push polls, any push poll, anywhere.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Do you think the MMO gaming world is ready for advanced human like AI?

    Do you really think anyone assumes human like AI? Do you expect the mobs start talking to you? No? Ok.. maybe then it is not human like.

    To advance the actual state of AI is really not a big problem, because the acutal state of AI stays in most cases the same since 30 years. VERY BASIC STUFF.

    And i think, not only MMO gaming, but gaming in general would be ready for more advanced AI. And i don't talk about talking and inventing Mobs.. because yeah... that would be scary.

    doesnt a Skyrim mod already talk to players?

    No.

    As i said "How is the weather?".. he really got no answer. No he is not talking. He is repeating predetermined text. That is really a difference.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by BTrayaL
    Baiting poll with dumb options, that should be reported (if I cared enough, beyond posting this).

    When the OP's poll creation shows a definitive bias, you vote opposite the POV he wants to "push".

    It's really the only way to handle push polls, any push poll, anywhere.

    dont really care about the poll. I like the discussion on advanced AI. Not talking about if its possible or when,

    but if it was done, would it be fun. thats what the debate is all about. How fun is NPC with actual human level intelligence?

     

    Remember in GW2 and Rift, how people get bored when events never seem to fail unless not having enough players. that got boring.

     

    Never losing gets boring. But with human like AI, there is a 50/50 chance to lose now. imagine that!!

    image

  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

    Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

     

    yes, it is easy to program "If xxx then 1"

     

    What happens if "If xxx then random(yyy)"? Can the game handle this? Can a common players computer handle this? If yyy is a set number, it means there are still a finite number of solutions to tackle the event.

     

    Granted, a human under normal circumstances will also have a set number of reactions for an event, but humans are known to be cunning and resourceful, and will also look into the environment attributes.

     

    That means, "If xxx then do random(yyy) depends on environment(zzz)"  This means the possibility gets bigger and bigger, but still remains a set finite solutions.

     

    Thing is, it is easier to program "If xxx then 1" for just one possible outcome than an infinite outcome.

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by Arakazi
    An advance AI would kill us all! In a millisecond it will calculate your DPS, check your usual spell rotation and react accordingly... by running away.

    In bold, so true.

     

    And lol, the AI will choose to just run away if it knows it cannot defeat the target... just like a human.

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

    Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

     

    That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

    And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

    Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

    Plan:

    - for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

    - layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

    So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

     

  • GibboniciGibbonici LeedsPosts: 472Member Common
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    People will quit asap with advanced AI.
    If carebears expect this then join a few pvp matches na dlets see how you love advanced AI.

    Its so overated, with no healers you are going to die so much that the any game that provides this advanced AI will be as frustrated as sucking at PvP.
    Unless you like to die alot and spend all your cash to repair your gear.

    Did no care to vote, stupid poll if you ask me.
    maybe add challeging AI ? not faceroll but inbetween ?

    PvP is only partly about intelligent play. It's as much about super-stacked builds with the strongest kill powers as it is about in-the-moment player skill, and perhaps more so. I love a bit of PvP but I don't have any allusions about it being particularly skill-based, even when I win.

     

    PvE mobs with decent AI wouldn't be min-maxed monsters built purely to kill, they'd be built to be interesting and rounded enemies with strengths and weaknesses. You know, balanced.

     

    You're right about the poll though, I didn't vote either.

  • DivonaDivona WellingtonPosts: 175Member

    Advance AI where it can grief players, camp players at respawn point 24/7, and insult back through chat? Is this included the one that find players on social media and email, then start cyber bully such players until the end of time? Please don't tell me it's also the one that steal players game accounts, use the same password through their bank account and transfer all the money out as well?

    *shake fist @ Advance AI*

  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

    Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

     

    That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

    And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

    Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

    Plan:

    - for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

    - layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

    So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

     

    There are a few things about this.

     

    One : as per another poster's partial post

    "A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now"

    No matter how intricate the AI is, it is still a finite number of outcomes. If the players know how to react to the actions taken by the AI, it will just become stale AI.

     

    Two: About everyone has his own agenda

    Humans are known to take the best course of action for a certain event. Why not AI have it too?

    For example, instead of the soldiers listening to the general to enter the battlefield and do random stuff, and just get kill (by any means) simply by going into the battlefield, the soldiers will have a revolt, overturn the command, and zerg as one, killling all the solo players. And since the revolt is much more likely to make the soldiers win, they will select to do this EVERYTIME, which will not be fun to the players at all.

     

    Third: In games yes. In MMO not likely. Most games have a finite ending to attend, as well as solo gameplay, thus easier to compile into a complete game for players to enjoy.

    MMOs... if players can complain about graphics too powerful for computer to handle, the players will sure complain about a game with too much AI coding that will take up too much resources and stuff.

     

    Lastly: If players really wants advanced AI, they should just play PVP where the players will really meet real intelligent players that will actually react intelligently to actions.

    Got silenced? Get out of attack range until silence is over, or use something/a skill to purify. Allies get ganked? Attack the ganker, rather than trashing random other enemies.

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • Mr.KujoMr.Kujo SwinoujsciePosts: 383Member

    There was a prototype of a game with intelligent AI like this. I don't remember if it was public, but I beta tested it.

    Since it was suppose to be intelligent, mobs did everything to survive. You can't even start to imagine how annoying can a game be, if enemy really does everything not to die...

    If there were to many players ganking mobs, they called reinforcements... Mobs kept retreating, running, hiding, doing suprise attacks, backstabbing... this shiet was so frustrating it made me want to throw PC out the window.

    Mobs have to do stupid things, otherwise there would be no game. It's the same deal with war games. If it was intelligent, no enemy would ever get out of hiding spot, and you would fight one enemy for hours until someone makes mistake like in real war.

    You really have no idea what you are asking for...

  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member
    Originally posted by kuujo

    There was a prototype of a game with intelligent AI like this. I don't remember if it was public, but I beta tested it.

    Since it was suppose to be intelligent, mobs did everything to survive. You can't even start to imagine how annoying can a game be, if enemy really does everything not to die...

    If there were to many players ganking mobs, they called reinforcements... Mobs kept retreating, running, hiding, doing suprise attacks, backstabbing... this shiet was so frustrating it made me want to throw PC out the window.

    Mobs have to do stupid things, otherwise there would be no game. It's the same deal with war games. If it was intelligent, no enemy would ever get out of hiding spot, and you would fight one enemy for hours until someone makes mistake like in real war.

    You really have no idea what you are asking for...

    The thing is, this is what some players think they want... you should google up the game and introduce it to those players...

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

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