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A linear game

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  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    Lol. Even in here we do have discussion and comparsion to EQN. Why?

    In all honestly, there is no fucking reason, why different games should be different. It is the damn purpose of it, isn't it?

    And another point. Yeah.. sandbox there, sandbox here. Hell, i am a old school sandbox player. BUT, i game have not to be a sandbox to be good. And the exact same thing is about linearity.. whats wrong with it? It is different, it does have some flaws, but nevertheless advantages, too.

    I ask you that. What is a story? YES.. it is fucking linear. So for storytelling purposes you need some linearity.

    Why oh why.. can a game not be good for what it is. And why should we compare it to another game, even another concept?

    And in all honestly.. i am a old school Elder Scroll Player.. and although it will be often considered as sandboxish, it isn't that much. It does have a story.. different ones even.. and you progress along the way. You do have options, but finally you will come to an end.. therefore it is linear. A sandbox game in comparsion would be a game with no end at all.

    So please stop that discussion.. especially it isn't worth it. Games can be different. And games can be good independent of beeing a sandbox or a themepark, being linear or not. As long as a game does that well, what it is supposed to be, it will be a satisfying experience.

    well said :-)

    There Is Always Hope!

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    Lol. Even in here we do have discussion and comparsion to EQN. Why?

    In all honestly, there is no fucking reason, why different games should be different. It is the damn purpose of it, isn't it?

    And another point. Yeah.. sandbox there, sandbox here. Hell, i am a old school sandbox player. BUT, i game have not to be a sandbox to be good. And the exact same thing is about linearity.. whats wrong with it? It is different, it does have some flaws, but nevertheless advantages, too.

    I ask you that. What is a story? YES.. it is fucking linear. So for storytelling purposes you need some linearity.

    Why oh why.. can a game not be good for what it is. And why should we compare it to another game, even another concept?

    And in all honestly.. i am a old school Elder Scroll Player.. and although it will be often considered as sandboxish, it isn't that much. It does have a story.. different ones even.. and you progress along the way. You do have options, but finally you will come to an end.. therefore it is linear. A sandbox game in comparsion would be a game with no end at all.

    So please stop that discussion.. especially it isn't worth it. Games can be different. And games can be good independent of beeing a sandbox or a themepark, being linear or not. As long as a game does that well, what it is supposed to be, it will be a satisfying experience.

    Having a beginning and an end doesn't make something linear. Linear has to do with going in a straight line. Going in order. Example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,... 10 , these numbers always remain the same and in the same order.

    Non linear would be something like 1, 8, 4, 6, 2, 3, 9, 5, 7, 10 with those numbers being able to be switched around at any point in random order. There is no specific order you have to go in.

    ESO has plenty of non linear gameplay elements. It also has some linear elements. However, every game does. Some are more linear and some are less linear. ESO is by far one the least linear mmos. You don't have to do any of the quests in any specific order other then linked quests like for the main story.

    If anyone calls that linear, they really need to look up the definition.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.
  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

    ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

    Having variance DOES make it non linear.

    I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon

    Ok. Again.

    ESO, or any themepark:

    straigth line: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

    with some variance.. but nevertheless linear:

    0.8, 1.9, 3.3, 3.4, 4.6

    and what does not happen in a themepark

    1, -1, 3, 7, -10,

    You progress along a linear path with some variance.. it is nevertheless linear.

     

    But to end the discussion. You are right. There is no linearity. Nowhere

  • RealbigdealRealbigdeal Vimont, QCPosts: 1,625Member
    The sad thing is EQN is more like a ESO than ESO will ever be

    C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif

  • Whiskey_SamWhiskey_Sam Lynchburg, VAPosts: 294Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

    ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

    Having variance DOES make it non linear.

    I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

    You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

    ___________________________
    Have flask; will travel.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,753Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by keithian
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
     

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    Can you please give me an example of a game that has thrived by doing this in the last 10 years? I actually prefer a level sort of feel as long as the path in those general zones feel open for exploration. I suspect others will feel the same. I would much rather have this then explore everywhere just to have everything level up with you like Oblivion did. On top of that, if you can explore just about everywhere at level 50 what difference does it make.

    being forced to specific areas within level brackets is an old mechanic that needs to evolve. I dont want to be forced to hit level cap to "begin" the real game or to see the goodies of full exploration. I should be able to explore the entire game at my own risk without being limited to " lower lvl areas wont give you shit" and "higher level area mobs will one shot you and wont give you shit".

    My opinion, GW2 did great with scaled down. Zenimax should either use that system, or the system from SKyrim, or just dont have levels. THey have 3 options, i hope they dont pick a totally useless forth option that is in every other generic mmo.

    image
  • StrangerousStrangerous ny, ILPosts: 165Member

    Will I be required to be level 30 to do the level 30 quests?

    Will I be locked out of areas until I complete a quest chain, which will also be level locked?

     

     

    This to me is what linear questing is about. Holds my hand level by level to ensure I not only do all the side crap but also so that I never get into the situation where im in a zone too hard for me.

     

    I know people, as usual, are latching onto buzzwords and trying to say a game sucks because it is "insert negative buzzword" but most of what I see here is the same thing people do attaching positive buzzwords to games, like calling games sandbox, when they just pick and choose what definition they want in order to fit their cheerleading and or trashing of the game.

     

    Obviously we all have to wait for more info, but I highly doubt that im going to be locked in a level prison, and then once I reach that level marker ill have to finish a storyline chain, before im allowed to exit into the next level prison.  Of course people have and are butchering what linear questing is for their own agenda, to be expected, but I really find it hard to believe that this game is going to be that big of a stretch from TES to where they section off content until you pass the linear checkpoints.

    Bottom line for me is that as long as this game lives up to the next installment of TES ill be fine with it, I didn't think skyrim was shit as a lot of derp trolls do (because they heard it on youtube) and I don't think this game will be shit.

    I just think that most will expect this game to fill their empty life voids for the next decade without a hitch, and that first bump in the road will turn them to haters frothing at the mouth on a crusade to save all the idiots (in their eyes) who don't see the game as the worst game ever created blah blah blah. Hence it will be dubbed a failure no matter what, just like every game except wow.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

    ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

    Having variance DOES make it non linear.

    I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

    You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

    There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

    in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

     

    so far the only requirements to advance are :

     

    -somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

    - then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

    - And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

     

    thats not much linearity if you ask me?

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Whiskey_SamWhiskey_Sam Lynchburg, VAPosts: 294Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

    ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

    Having variance DOES make it non linear.

    I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

    You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

    There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

    in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

     

    so far the only requirements to advance are :

     

    -somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

    - then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

    - And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

     

    thats not much linearity if you ask me?

    That's kind of the point.  If they scale the combat to where you as a level 1 player are going to instantly be dead trying to take on a level 19 creature, no you are not literally barred from going to the level 19 area, but you are effectively barred from doing so.  The end result is the same.  You are going to be funneled into level appropriate areas.  I agree that's not a rigid linearity, but it is some.  As I understood Brabbit, the argument put forward was that because you had some freedom to a degree and didn't have to do things in a 1,2,3,4,5,6 order there was no linearity at all.  That's where I disagreed, and it looks like you don't agree with that either.

    ___________________________
    Have flask; will travel.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

    ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

    Having variance DOES make it non linear.

    I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

    You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

    There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

    in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

     

    so far the only requirements to advance are :

     

    -somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

    - then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

    - And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

     

    thats not much linearity if you ask me?

    That's kind of the point.  If they scale the combat to where you as a level 1 player are going to instantly be dead trying to take on a level 19 creature, no you are not literally barred from going to the level 19 area, but you are effectively barred from doing so.  

    And thats one of the things i truely like about MMOs, it gives me that feeling of progression.. If i come back alone about 17 levels later, i will have a fighting chance...

     

    and its even better if at early levels i carefully sneaked past the 19 just to find a treasure chest or something else

     

    anyway, dividing a whole world into level zones is a requirement for progression which is very very important in my RPG book... If i could fight every mob in the game at level 1, what would be the use of getting new skills and abilities for my chatcter?

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

    ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

    Having variance DOES make it non linear.

    I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

    You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

    There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

    in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

     

    so far the only requirements to advance are :

     

    -somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

    - then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

    - And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

     

    thats not much linearity if you ask me?

    That's kind of the point.  If they scale the combat to where you as a level 1 player are going to instantly be dead trying to take on a level 19 creature, no you are not literally barred from going to the level 19 area, but you are effectively barred from doing so.  The end result is the same.  You are going to be funneled into level appropriate areas.  I agree that's not a rigid linearity, but it is some.  As I understood Brabbit, the argument put forward was that because you had some freedom to a degree and didn't have to do things in a 1,2,3,4,5,6 order there was no linearity at all.  That's where I disagreed, and it looks like you don't agree with that either.

    Actually, you misunderstood me. What I am saying is the ENTIRE game isn't linear. It would be wrong to call it such. I never said their was no linear portions of the game.

    Let's take a story for example since a non linear story can be applied in the same manner and it should fit my explanation really well.

    A non linear story doesn't follow the same order of events as you would normally see in a story. However, you still have to follow the order the author set for you in order for it to make sense. Even though you still are technically following an order, and you can only complete the book starting from the beginning to the end, it's still considered non linear do to the way the book is laid out. The book still obviously has linear portions.

    No matter how far you stray from the path, you still will have to meet back up to end up in the same place.

    So again, my point is ESO, as a whole, is not linear. That is not saying there is no linear portions of the game. Of course there are. You would not be able to tell a story if it was entirely non linear.

  • MegilindirMegilindir AnkaraPosts: 89Member

    There is but one factor that makes a game "linear" for me,

    Hubs.

    If the game has instanced zones then no matter what and in any condition is not a sandbox game (apart from EVE online where you can travel hubs without corridors). 

    Ah yes.And levels.

    The game is a themepark.A linear one and probably a bad one ( dat clunky combat geezuz) )

    I just so badly want those games to be the sandpark games we always want to play and dream of but it seems they will never be.

    beLIEve

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Megilindir

    There is but one factor that makes a game "linear" for me,

    Hubs.

    If the game has instanced zones then no matter what and in any condition is not a sandbox game (apart from EVE online where you can travel hubs without corridors). 

    Ah yes.And levels.

    The game is a themepark.A linear one and probably a bad one ( dat clunky combat geezuz) )

    I just so badly want those games to be the sandpark games we always want to play and dream of but it seems they will never be.

    i gotno clue what you are trying to explain here..

     

    but the game has no quest hubs, so that means its not linear in your opinion,and then you tell me its linear because it has levels andis a themepark without defining your vision of a themepark?

     

    and thenyou tell us you want allgames to be sandparks, which clearly shows you will never recognise a good game that offers true content.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    Whilst with some time on my hands one week I came up with a way of having non-linear play with a linear character development system.

    Have each zone with sub-areas - where the safest and most settled/civilised contain low level challenges - with settlements, access roads and farmland or local woods etc etc containing this level of challenge. Then have areas around those as 'mid level challenges' - wilder woods, wasteland, outlaw hills - etc etc. Then beyond those - high level challenges - ravines, badlands, swamps, magically scarred land et al. Inside these as discrete features - ruins, ravines, dungeons etc. you can place open or closed gated challenges at any level - including the highest epic ones.

    Each zone will be more or less settled - meaning more or less sub-areas of low level and a faster ransition to higher - but the zones aren't off limits to anyone at any level. here is just more or less of a 'don't wander off the road stranger...' element to each.

    The subzones are effectively invisible data layers - you don't need to instance them - just have an indicator for the character - maybe a faster heartbeat or a fearful look as they cross the invisible line. A subtle warning that you are getting out of your depth - but still your choice.

    Hell, the terrain might not change at all - but the fact you don't yet know you are approaching a hidden troll's lair (except you haven't seen a farmer in a while, there is slightly different wildlife and your virtual heart is pounding) is the point.

    Advance the idea a little more and you can have these threat level data layers change over time in a sandbox fashion.

    For instance - a guild builds a fortress - the area around it is patrolled by NPC guards and threat level drops off. A raid beat a boss in a ravine - until respawn the ravine is now only mid level threat, not epic. A nest of giant insects erupts out of the ground near peaceful low threat farmland - the area becomes high level threat until the queen insect is defeated.

    The whole debate that levelled MUST equal linear and non-sandbox is wrong in my opinion - it just takes imagination and some alternate thinking to build and MMO which sideteps this problem and evolves the genre.

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