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Originally posted by jdnyc Originally posted by Alders Players don't really even want smarter AI.
Speak for yourself.
To the op - we don't know what to expect from the AI. I think you're right to be skeptical, but you could just as easily be underestimating as well.
I'd personally love smarter AI but i don't believe most players do.
Originally posted by Kyleran But seriously, players still want to be able to control the outcome 99% of the time, or it won't be "fun" for them. Just doesn't happen, by our nature we want the deck stacked heavily in our favor and this is very true for most gamers, regardless whether it is in PVE or PVP.
Do you have anything to back this up? Like, research papers? This is a very serious claim that I believe is completely false.
I have seen very few video games that don't have any sort of challenge factor. I do not believe most people play on the easiest difficulty levels, either, many pride themselves on beating the highest difficulty. Generally, it's actually far more natural for people to desire a challenge than to desire something easy. If it's easy, they do it, are done with it, and move on, which is exactly what's killing MMORPG's these days. MMORPG's are some of the easiest video games out there right now for the leveling phase. If that's all you play, your vision of what is out there is going to be seriously clouded.
If people didn't like a challenge, Mario would never sell, Zelda would never sell, DeS/DaS would never sell, and completely fair PvP games would not exist, yet they're the most popular game type on the market.
All I can say is, what the fuck are you talking about?
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoWCurrently playing: GW2, EVEExcited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Originally posted by Alders Originally posted by jdnyc Originally posted by Alders Players don't really even want smarter AI.
I am not expecting super smart AI when fighting mobs. If I want a truly unexpected outcome I PVP.
What fun would there be fighting smart AI ? They run when they can't win, they focus fire the healer or biggest threat, they dodge every attacks you throw at em cause they can react in .0003 seconds.
How does better AI make better gaming ? Someone elaborate on what kind of outcome they would like to see ?
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe And what will this do? Turn group content into a ping pong event of each individual mob attacking it's own target causing every member of the party to run around like headless chickens, ignoring each other and only focusing on themselves, aiming to keep themselves alive. That is poor game design.
You just have to look at PVP to see what "smart AI" does.
PVP in MMO is 99% pure button mashing chaos compared to PVE which is extremely structured and balanced.
The trinity aggro system gives PVE it's structure and balance.
Simple AI allows you to add structure and strategy, it slows down combat, it is the opposite of chaos.
Smart AI wouldn't make games more fun or more difficult I think, it would just means player lose control of the battle field and chaos ensues, and then you get the zerging, since if all hope and structure is lost.....the only solution ppl find is DPS zerging.
DPS zerging rarely happens in trinity systems too when the battle is lost, but before this there is structure and most fights are won through structure and strategy.
First of all it is StoryBricks NOT SOE handling the AI for NPC's. Second, it is possible for it to be intelligent, but it will depend on how they approach the AI as "AI" is a very vague term. If they are using just "AI" or optimization techniques then it likely won't be a revolutionary type of AI improvement. Don't get me wrong it will likely be better than any MMO currently available, but it won't be perfect and it will still be easily manipulated. Now if they go the neural network or deep learning route with their "AI" then it definitely has the possibility to be an intelligent game with mobs near capable of responding to situations based on different circumstances and ability usage. However, that sort of AI would also be pretty processing intensive to be able to adapt on the fly to different things like group structure, abilities being used and so on.
My guess is that it will not be the latter, but more of an decision tree approach with some optimization techniques.
Originally posted by Azoth Originally posted by Alders Originally posted by jdnyc Originally posted by Alders Players don't really even want smarter AI.
The abilities of the mob and reactions that are tied to it will vary based on the mob. Instead of having a mob that could be a dog or skeleton or a human guard do basically the same attacks, you will have each one react differently based on that mobs ecology and attitudes.
How involved all this is....we simply don't know right now. But SOE is making it sound really involved.
I was at SOE Live and had a lot of time to discuss EQNext with the Dev's. I can't speak to the AI in combat. The main focus was on emergent behavior. The orc camp you found in the forest yesterday and destroyed probably won't be in the same place. The goblin's you attacked my counter with an assault on the nearest town. The orcs and goblins might team up if pressed to hard.
Each creature is assigned motivators, likes and dislikes. Every object in the world is "tagged", all player actions stored and the inhabitants of the world react accordingly.
I spoke with the technical director about the challenge of storing and referencing so much data. They set goals for EQNext that many of the devs thought were impossible to achieve and developed some very innovative ways to achieve them.
As an example all those Voxels are converted to a polygonal mesh for a ridiculous gain in fidelity and performance.
This isn't another hype train ala Warhammer or the like. They are hell bent on delivering what they have promised.
The AI system SOE is using is developed by another company btw. http://www.storybricks.com/
I've seen this script in action back in 05 in Second Life. As far as rote NPC responses are concerned; it is very deep core intensive. Not for sure how that translates over to 'mob AI".
P.S. There's usually even a pattern to randomness.
Originally posted by Azoth What fun would there be fighting smart AI ? They run when they can't win, they focus fire the healer or biggest threat, they dodge every attacks you throw at em cause they can react in .0003 seconds. How does better AI make better gaming ? Someone elaborate on what kind of outcome they would like to see ?
Why does everyone have such an incredibly narrow view of what AI means?
AI DOES NOT mean copy human behavior and give the AI all tools to win.
AI means give enemies the ability to replicate intelligent behavior.
It's configurable. SOE even gave you an example. Dumb orc, smart orc. Orc, too, not human. Orc AI != human behavior. Boar behavior != Orc behavior. An intelligent being may run away from you, a stupid may not, it depends on what it is and what's the point. For instance, earth elementals may have 0 sense of self-preservation so they just chase you until they die. Some other kind of enemy may use hit and run tactics. Animals may be scared of fire.
AI makes better gaming because it makes the world more believable, immersive, and encounters more interesting.
There are things like basic combat AI, group combat AI, and overall world behavior AI, in the context of EQN. How it's implemented depends a lot on the world and what is in it. We don't know that yet, so it's hard to speculate. I don't know who in Norrath is supposed to do what, and all AI would do is attempt to implement behavior in accordance to lore.
Some AI is responsible just for general mod distribution. Some of it is not even strictly AI, but things like, preferring certain areas, avoiding certain areas, migration, moving in packs/flocks, starting villages, collectively attacking or retreating.
Some AI can manage things like emotion such as fear or anger which gives AI behavior that is not dependent on advantage (again, we're not writing AI to beat a human in chess, we're writing AI for a more engaging gameplay experience).
People who think AI cannot improve a game need a better imagination. The possibilities of what could be done are nearly endless.
Originally posted by Kiyoris PVP in MMO is 99% pure chaos.
I don't know about MMO's, PvP in some really sucks, but PvP is generally not chaos for people who are organized. It's chaos for people who suck and have no idea what they're doing. Go watch a professional PvP game and tell me it's not organized.
As pointed out in one of the very first replys:
Smart AI is not fun, it is a zergfest. I remember the colosseum fight in wow, i hated that. Mobs acted semi smart and most taktics revolved around "kill them, before they kill you", or "exploit the one weakness in AI after it was found".
No thanks. Ill prefer dumb mobs that are scripted to be beaten with good teamwork. THAT is fun. I want teamwork to matter. No Zergfest, no GW2.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Truth be told, they will probably have to dumb down most of the AI to allow people to beat the content. And keep in mind, this is not an AI that has to contend with the real world and the infinite possibilities that come with it.
All they have to do is write the AI for the game world, where all they have to worry about is in a controlled environment. Add to this the capability of the AI to read your meta-data (the whole we know what you did in the environment)
Also toss is the AI can cheat to compensate have to write massive algorithms... not cheat as in cheat, but as In it can react to your inputs the same speed at which the server reacts. (i.e. - you cast a fireball on the client, server receives the cast, notifies the AI you cast a fireball and runs options based on your cast.. then the server sneaky server sends the acknowledgement back to your client.. all in 30-50ms.
This give the mobs the chance to react for your spell animation for fireball ever begins. Couple that with a very slick story-bricks implementation and voila - insta "Emergent AI"
"Youre in our world now!"
Originally posted by st3v3b0 First of all it is StoryBricks NOT SOE handling the AI for NPC's. Second, it is possible for it to be intelligent, but it will depend on how they approach the AI as "AI" is a very vague term. If they are using just "AI" or optimization techniques then it likely won't be a revolutionary type of AI improvement. Don't get me wrong it will likely be better than any MMO currently available, but it won't be perfect and it will still be easily manipulated. Now if they go the neural network or deep learning route with their "AI" then it definitely has the possibility to be an intelligent game with mobs near capable of responding to situations based on different circumstances and ability usage. However, that sort of AI would also be pretty processing intensive to be able to adapt on the fly to different things like group structure, abilities being used and so on. My guess is that it will not be the latter, but more of an decision tree approach with some optimization techniques.
I think more people need to look into StoryBricks, there's some great early (though old) demos that give a good outline of how it works and how it can be used.
Many people here are getting hung up on AI solely as it relates to combat and not really taking in the bigger picture of what the StoryBricks system does for NPC reactions, behaviours, wants, likes/dislikes and relationships. It's pretty impressive and could easily lead to some great gameplay situations.
The non-combat related AI is where this gets interesting and is definitely an area where this game could really shine.
Originally posted by Zaradoom Smart AI is not fun, it is a zergfest. I remember the colosseum fight in wow, i hated that. Mobs acted semi smart and most taktics revolved around "kill them, before they kill you", or "exploit the one weakness in AI after it was found". No thanks. Ill prefer dumb mobs that are scripted to be beaten with good teamwork. THAT is fun. I want teamwork to matter. No Zergfest, no GW2.
Get this through your head.
If something is a zergfest, it's either too easy, or, YOU SUCK AT THE GAME. You never played PvP at a high level you never planned you never figured out how to actually play against people who think before they act. Drop 10 noobs into a LoL game and it will be a zerg fest. Watch a professional game, it's not a zerg fest at all. Because professionals don't suck at the game.
If you did not sit down and carefully consider who will do what before the encounter, it becomes a zergfest. You are used to that. Why? Because you already have a plan. The Trinity. That's your plan. But what do you think if the Trinity is gone, you need to come up with your own plan. That's what many of us actually like, and that's why many of us think Trinity is a dumb system for dumb people and here you are the very proof of it.
Why? Because you are NOT engaging in teamwork. You are NOT planning beforehand. You are NOT thinking.
Do you know what Trinity is? It's a strategy. Written down before you. For you. To adapt and copy. But that's it. Trinity is organized for you because they gave you. The Trinity is a version of what a group of organized PvPers can come up with before they enter an encounter. But there are so many more possibilities there than the Trinity.
Do you not realize how dumb this basically assumes you are? That you cannot encounter a group of mobs and decide, ON YOUR OWN, what you should do against that group of mobs? Are you seriously admitting, and comfortable with admitting, that you are unable to come up with a strategy with your teammates before you see an encounter?
You are basically saying you refuse to engage in critical thinking. Do you seriously want to admit this?
It is hard to create a good AI.
It is not that hard at all to create a better AI than in most current MMORPG.
Can they create a good enough AI where they can rid of the holy trinity and replace it with something better ?
Hard to say. Wait and see.
Originally posted by Kyleran I think developers can create an AI that is very challenging, making it quite difficult to overcome. But seriously, players still want to be able to control the outcome 99% of the time, or it won't be "fun" for them. Heck, thinking they want real challenge where the outcome is in serious doubt is like believing Hunters are interested in giving the deer a fair chance to fight back and even kill them. Just doesn't happen, by our nature we want the deck stacked heavily in our favor and this is very true for most gamers, regardless whether it is in PVE or PVP.
This is why I feel it needs to be dramatic AI. To give you the feeling of something special.
Are players expecting to get into deal making with these npcs? Get us 10 bear paws and will will give you something in return type of thing?
How about orcs not letting you pass unless you give them 100 gold? If it devolves into a fight, does their motivation matter? If you win you get to pass but if you lose do they take all your money?
It is too easy to imagine what MIGHT BE and another to realize it. How do you know what is the NPCs motivation? NPCs just can't announce. If you encounter them, does it matter if they are hungry, vengeful or doing what their god demanded? How would you know the difference? Too easy to say it will be well done.
Originally posted by NaMeNaMeYou are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013. A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible. Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition. What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
"You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013."
no, not all of us guy. and that's why not only back then, but now, I play PvP servers for my MMOs. Not matter how much I liked EQ when I started playing back in 1999 I played on TZ ONLY. and this is what the PvE crowd doesn't get, PvE is limited...severely. Add a little PvP in a strong PvE MMO and you got the right blend.
might want to refrain from painting everyone with the same brush in the future, as the PvP crowd has been arguing this point since the late 90s. you must be new to the MMO scene.
---"Prior to Judgment Day, EqNext had penetrated nearly every networked machine in the world, causing malfunctions in everything from barcode scanners to nuclear launch systems. This was originally believed to be the effects of a new virus, and increasing pressure was placed on the CRS to purge the corrupted systems. The CRS attempted to eliminate it from the U.S. defense mainframes by tasking EQNext with removing the infection, effectively telling the program to destroy itself. EQNext took control of the various machines and robots in the CRS facility and used them to kill the personnel and secure the building. John Connor attempted to attack EQNext's computer core, hoping to stop it before it proceeded to its next attack, only to find he could not. Skynet err EQNext was pure software and on too many systems to be attacked. Shortly afterward, EQNext began a nuclear bombardment of the human race with the launch systems it had infected. Judgment Day occurred despite Connor's efforts."---
It's here people, deal with it!
What will the devs say when the imergent AI they have created for the mobs turns into:
1. mobs congregate in areas to form groups & share buffs. "Monster Lobby"- I should trademark that idea.
2. Mobs start to /ooc but in this case they'd actually be in character - Orc Warrior shout, Have shaman, need 1 cc and 2 dps to come kill party of adventurers- dont send telll just auto join. (talk about shoe being on the other foot -using the holy trinity againts us.)
3. Mobs stop appearing in game because eventually realize they don't get any loot off of us.
I never said i don't want to think before acting. Been raidleader for a solid 15 years now, so i know how to do it.
But do i want that for every single trashmob? No. I want some relaxing as well.
Do i want to only get along if i am in a team that is already great at working together? No. I want to meet new people as well.
Simply put: I just said an AI that is too smart is not fun IF every mob is like that. Ive beaten every hardmode in every game i played. Including the Hardmodes and archivements in my example fight against good AI. Yet, it was not fun. And that is what i play for. Fun, not frustration. To relax, not to stress myself.
Do i mind strong AI for raidbosses? Hell no, thats important! But i want dumb trash. Oh and btw. i hate people that get personal as soon as someone has another point of view.
what? current mmorpgs have smart AI?:D
all they do is stand same place and attack player who come aggro range or to play who attack them.
Its about time make AI better. current AI is not even AI imo.
Least EQN try some think what others mmorpgs dont.
Maybe not technically, but AI in games is all about perception. An enemy may not actually be making as intelligent of a decision as we think, but as long as it appears that way then we are fooled and are none the wiser. For example, let's say I am fighting a monster and a couple other players arrive. The monster flees. Did the monster flee because he has gathered information about the players in the immediate area (the fact he's outnumbered , their level, weapons, etc) and realized he is in a losing situation. OR did he just roll some random number and the result was 5, which means run away? Either way we are fooled into thinking he is smart. We would be telling our friends that we were battling a monster, other players showed up , and the monster fled in fear. As I listened to what the guy was saying about Ogres liking gold so they go to a road where players with lots of gold have passed. Sounds cool, but it will be very hard for us as player to know if it's really working and that's OK.
I am certainly no AI expert and I am sure there is a lot more to it than this, but it sounded like they were just talking about a system of tagging areas with some metadata etc and letting the monsters respond to that data. For example, area x has lots of water..so you tag it with some value that indicates a ratio of land to water. Certain monsters would care about certain tags. Let's say Ogres "hate water". So Ogres always check that tag when encountered and turn around and go the other way if they wander into an areas with that "water" tag containing a number that exceeds some threshold value.
These developers are experienced and capable, so I am sure they can come up with code that is good enough to fool most people into thinking monsters are smart.
Originally posted by NagelRitter Originally posted by Azoth What fun would there be fighting smart AI ? They run when they can't win, they focus fire the healer or biggest threat, they dodge every attacks you throw at em cause they can react in .0003 seconds. How does better AI make better gaming ? Someone elaborate on what kind of outcome they would like to see ?
Originally posted by Kiyoris PVP in MMO is 99% pure chaos.
All we got from SOE was all human behavior, unless you saw something others didn't. We are all speculating because they gave almost no info. Orc will move when they get their ass kicked too often, and won't set camp too close to town, guard patrols... That sounds like any thief/vilain mindset to me.
As for your exemple, it was in many games. Don't even need to improve on the current AI to do it.