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PvErs want more advanced AI, but wouldn't that basically be PvP?

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  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Suraknar
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.

    actually when i think about it, this is quite true for me. i dont really want risk (aka i want minimal consequences for dying). why would i want "risk" (aka punishment) in the game i play for fun and relaxation?

    also at least in my case bigger risk = less fun. why? let me give you an example. in eq2 there is currently a lot lower death penalty (xp loss) then it used to be. consequence? i am now trying to kill even mobs i have only low chance to kill and having a blast doing so, even if i die trying, while in old eq2 i was too scared to even get close to anything hard, since xp penalty was really harsh.

    This is a very fair and honest reply.

    I suppose it comes down to really personal preference of what constitutes fun. For me it is the opposite, if the game does not have some risk, I become bored, I am not entertained, I do not have fun nor relaxation.

    i will not speak of old school mmos with which I started playing the genre, but lets take something more recent, WoW for instance, many played in PVE servers, I could never play in them, I chose the PvP servers. And it happened many times that as I was leveling (played first in Vanilla) a 60 would come allong and one shot me. But many other times it was more or less equal levels and during these PvP engagements in the Open world the rush of adrenaline and the excitement they generated gave me fun enough to continue the pve without getting bored.

    later on at 60 I focused more on the PvP and reached rank 14, I also did the major raids 40 mans at the time. At least once each to explore that facet of the game. But I could never repeat them night after night like others. Once or twice was enough for the sake of the experience the initial challenge the lore etc.

    But you see in vanilla you could actually (with small tweaks and preparation) do the raids with either epic pve or epic pvp gear. For me the raids were a bit of respite from the ongoing PvP I engaged in 90% of my time in the game. And I did not do this alone, all my guild did the same. We moved on when the game further segregated gear and one had to do engage in specific activities in order to participate further in them. (you had to have 2 sets of gear).

    But I digress I am moving off tpic here. The point is that for me if there is no Risk the world is not imerssive, it is artificial and I do not have a sense of Freedom or the sense of playing the role of a character living in it, because it is fake.

    Players make the already artificial (virtual world) alive and decision we take are in relation to the decisions of other real people like in real life, NPCs cannot o this for me because they are artificial as well.

     

    well actually, even tho i am a pveer, i dont do raids at all :) i was a raid leader of our guild in wow, but already before bc i suddenly realised i am logging to go to raid even tho i dont feel like it, just because i more or less "have to". it felt more like second job then playing a game, so i did quit raiding and never regreted it :)

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

    but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

    in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

    but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

    but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

    So why do you want that? 

    Why does it have to be all or nothing?

    Can't the AI be more than simple but less than the Terminator?

    Or more precisely - I want the AI controlling my orc, to act like an orc - if the orc acted like a person with free will; it wouldn't really be like fighting an orc; just as you say. 

    But we need a more advanced AI to do that; but we don't have to create sentient beings.

    If we go that far....to create AI so good it is essentially like fighting a real person.....well, let's just say my concerns will lie with keeping my family safe from the upcoming computer apocolypse, and my mmo's AI will be of a fairly minor concern.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    Originally posted by Suraknar
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.

    actually when i think about it, this is quite true for me. i dont really want risk (aka i want minimal consequences for dying). why would i want "risk" (aka punishment) in the game i play for fun and relaxation?

    also at least in my case bigger risk = less fun. why? let me give you an example. in eq2 there is currently a lot lower death penalty (xp loss) then it used to be. consequence? i am now trying to kill even mobs i have only low chance to kill and having a blast doing so, even if i die trying, while in old eq2 i was too scared to even get close to anything hard, since xp penalty was really harsh.

    This is a very fair and honest reply.

    I suppose it comes down to really personal preference of what constitutes fun. For me it is the opposite, if the game does not have some risk, I become bored, I am not entertained, I do not have fun nor relaxation.

    i will not speak of old school mmos with which I started playing the genre, but lets take something more recent, WoW for instance, many played in PVE servers, I could never play in them, I chose the PvP servers. And it happened many times that as I was leveling (played first in Vanilla) a 60 would come allong and one shot me. But many other times it was more or less equal levels and during these PvP engagements in the Open world the rush of adrenaline and the excitement they generated gave me fun enough to continue the pve without getting bored.

    later on at 60 I focused more on the PvP and reached rank 14, I also did the major raids 40 mans at the time. At least once each to explore that facet of the game. But I could never repeat them night after night like others. Once or twice was enough for the sake of the experience the initial challenge the lore etc.

    But you see in vanilla you could actually (with small tweaks and preparation) do the raids with either epic pve or epic pvp gear. For me the raids were a bit of respite from the ongoing PvP I engaged in 90% of my time in the game. And I did not do this alone, all my guild did the same. We moved on when the game further segregated gear and one had to do engage in specific activities in order to participate further in them. (you had to have 2 sets of gear).

    But I digress I am moving off tpic here. The point is that for me if there is no Risk the world is not imerssive, it is artificial and I do not have a sense of Freedom or the sense of playing the role of a character living in it, because it is fake.

    Players make the already artificial (virtual world) alive and decision we take are in relation to the decisions of other real people like in real life, NPCs cannot o this for me because they are artificial as well.

     

    well actually, even tho i am a pveer, i dont do raids at all :) i was a raid leader of our guild in wow, but already before bc i suddenly realised i am logging to go to raid even tho i dont feel like it, just because i more or less "have to". it felt more like second job then playing a game, so i did quit raiding and never regreted it :)

    Exactly, so here is one common point both types of players actually share. Nor you nor I like the game to impose "have to" mechanics.

    And the good news, at least for you, is that according to current information, EQN (all other considerations asside) seems to be a game that you will enjoy greatly. As for myself I think it will be ArchAge.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • GrayKodiakGrayKodiak Nada, FLPosts: 576Member

    Can the PvP'er step outside of the combat role for a second and see other uses for a better NPC system?

    Maybe AI that remembers that time you attacked its fort, not a faction bar but a character that was there when you attacked the fort and will never forget or forgive, maybe you redeem yourself but that guy who watched you slaughter his comrades will always not like you and probably charge you more or refuse to talk to you.

    Maybe an advanced AI that doesn't stand in one place handing out the same quest to 100 people but actually does things and only has needs when the environment actually creates needs, for instance a farmer that doesn't need you to fend off orcs unless orcs are actually in the area messing around his farm.

    Or kobolds that do not stand twenty meters apart at all times and let you pick each one off in the cave without aggroing the entire cave because apparently his line of sight is a 10 meter circle around him and he can not hear you bashing someones face in with a twenty pound warhammer in full plate 11 meters away, of course that last one is combat related but they do not all have to be.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,681Member Uncommon

    MMORPG AI is designed to act as a puzzle.  Puzzles are gameplay content.  The specific puzzle of threat-based AI is particularly good, as it's easily understandable but dynamic enough to be tough to master, and at the same time it can both (a) be tweaked in interesting ways and (b) plays well with the rest of the game's content.

    AI designed to be realistic isn't as good of a puzzle, so it's worse gameplay.

    This doesn't mean we're stuck with only threat-based AI, but until somebody suggests AI which is as good or better a puzzle, it won't really have a good reason for changing.

     

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Suraknar

    And the good news, at least for you, is that according to current information, EQN (all other considerations asside) seems to be a game that you will enjoy greatly. As for myself I think it will be ArchAge.

    yeah, i am so far quite excited about what they said about eqn (well not about everything, but compared to the good stuff, things i dont like are minor.

    as for AA, it doesnt sound as a game for me (besides the ow pvp the biggest problem for me are the labor points, since i like to spend big part of my playtime crafting), but i wish you to immensely enjoy it.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member
    Originally posted by GrayKodiak

    Can the PvP'er step outside of the combat role for a second and see other uses for a better NPC system?

    Maybe AI that remembers that time you attacked its fort, not a faction bar but a character that was there when you attacked the fort and will never forget or forgive, maybe you redeem yourself but that guy who watched you slaughter his comrades will always not like you and probably charge you more or refuse to talk to you.

    Maybe an advanced AI that doesn't stand in one place handing out the same quest to 100 people but actually does things and only has needs when the environment actually creates needs, for instance a farmer that doesn't need you to fend off orcs unless orcs are actually in the area messing around his farm.

    Or kobolds that do not stand twenty meters apart at all times and let you pick each one off in the cave without aggroing the entire cave because apparently his line of sight is a 10 meter circle around him and he can not hear you bashing someones face in with a twenty pound warhammer in full plate 11 meters away, of course that last one is combat related but they do not all have to be.

    Umm, no this has not crossed my mind.

    Because all that you describe happens already in MMO's which are made for people to play with one another and not just amongst one another.

    You like the AI to mimic human interaction, so that you can play even more by yourself? Why are you playing an MMO again?

    This kind of AI would be great for a Solo RPG...you do not need an MMO for that.

     

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
    no because the AI wont corpse camp me for hours on end with their max level character in the noob area.......
  • RinnaRinna Las Vegas, NVPosts: 388Member

    I don't feel like PvPers behave like more intelligent AI.  As a matter of fact, I don't remember ever having a one on one fight with another player that involved an even playing field.  Players stack the deck in their favor, usually by running in a pack and just vaporizing single players who don't have a chance.  Kind of the same way gangs work in 'real life'.

    Completely different than more intelligent AI.

    No bitchers.

  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
     

     

    Developing a strategy that gives an advantage isn't intelligent  and viewed as dickish behavior ?   Advanced AI that is designed to try to Win would certainly develop a strategy that gives it an advantage.   The funny thing is how emotional people get when it is a player opponent that used a strategy to defeat them , then they become demonized and it is labeled a dickish move.

     

    The issue seems to be that most MMO players want a very confined controlled game that protects them from failure.  They don't want a challenge unless it is something that can be overcome with little effort using the excuse that "I play games for fun" and work, trying, competition and losing... isn't fun.

     

    I wonder what games these unwashed MMO masses played growing up ?    How did they survive Chutes and Ladders, when the first person to the end is proclaimed the   Winner, and everyone else  the Losers ?    God forbid they play something like Chess that has an opportunity for smarts and strategy to give someone and advantage,  I assume they must all have gone to Charter schools that removed homework, tests, grades, honor roll and gave out ribbons to everyone for trying because that's all that matters.  :P

  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rinna

    I don't feel like PvPers behave like more intelligent AI.  As a matter of fact, I don't remember ever having a one on one fight with another player that involved an even playing field.  Players stack the deck in their favor, usually by running in a pack and just vaporizing single players who don't have a chance.  Kind of the same way gangs work in 'real life'.

    Completely different than more intelligent AI.

    Hmmm.  What part of competition don't you understand.    

     

    In a Player vs. Player game people try to win and if there is something they can do to stack the deck, like... I don't know... working hard to level, practicing to learn how to leverage the environment, studying your character abilities,etc   they will do it because that is being a good player/competitor.    

    It is up to the game designers to provide the rules for the game and it is up to the players to play to the best of their ability, without cheating....  Even when it means using a strategy that gives you an advantage.

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by illorion Well think about it... Think of every MMO that has not "bombed" in some form or another in the past like... 20 years. UO - OWPVP EQ - OWPVP WoW- OWPVP EvE - OWPVP   My point is the Major MMOs that are "classics" had OWPVP Since then it has been a huge stream of casual PvE with PvP tacked on the side and they have all bombed again and again GW2 is doing pretty well but they put alot of work into their game... but i lost interest because, again, no OWPvP. So that satisfaction of finally being strong enough to fight back against ganking or the thrill of randomly spotting "the enemy" and feeling that "red is dead" rush just isnt there....  I mean... my dad got to 80 and beat the last dungeon in that game and hes is 50 and plays mostly friggin zuma on facebook and never even used the hotkeys... he just clicked on his abilities.... thats how easy that game is. And thats how easy EQN will be... cause thats what gamers think they want... cause pvp is a bitter medicine that no one wants to swallow
    So every EQ server had open world pvp?

     

    Every WoW server had open world pvp?

    EVE has consistent open world pvp "rules" throughout its entire Universe?

    I wonder if one could name games that had open world pvp but still "bombed" (depending on your defintiion).

    And Lineage 2, great game it was/is, had open world pvp and it didn't do so well here in the west.



    UO's open world PvP was quickly abandoned as soon as other options were available. Same thing happened to WoW. Eve did not drop OW PvP, but they did create High Sec space, which gives players a choice in how and when they PvP. I have no idea about EQ.

     

    EQ had multiple server types with the Zek servers being the PvP enabled ones.  The overwheming majority of the EQ playerbase didn't play on these servers, and many regarded them as the cesspools of EQ due to the behaviour from many who played there (not all).  The servers also had little to no regulation from SOE (even today the Zek ruleset is generally the least populated of all the servers - Project 1999's PvP ruleset server is also a shadow of the PvE one).

    I must admit I am curious as to how they will incorporate PvP into EQN.  I don't see it being what some seem to want here (OWPvP with no restrictions or consequences), as the reality is that it would scare away or put off too large a portion of the potential customerbase to allow what in many cases would be griefing and bullying behaviour.  I could be wrong though, only time will tell either way.

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,544Member Uncommon
    If AI was as advanced human intelligence than trinity system is useless. 
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tkreep
    If AI was as advanced human intelligence than trinity system is useless. 

    So how would you beat NPC with human level of intelligence?

    image

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    PvP honestly isn't that 'difficult' or 'skill based' as people love to claim. In the end, you are versing a character with exactly the same limitations as you. PvE has in its prime form the ability to be vastly more difficult, having far more crazy mechanics behind it that PvP falls drastically short in comparison to being able to pull off. This only becomes more true looking at the meat of PvP essencially being down to "CC/heal/pound away". Games have done better on this end with more games coming out that do take more skill (action games with aiming) though its not exactly up to par with what PvE can accomplish and its unlikely it ever will.

    PvP is often times fixated on 'cheaping' out the enemy, a reason I despise it and LOVE countering that noob ganker who can't play worth crap trying to do it. PvE on the other hand is designed away from limitations, having abilities and mechanics that would be OP for players to mimic that can be vastly more dangerous without relying on 'cheap' elements such as stun locking or other rather lack luster tools.

  • SagasaintSagasaint Miami, FLPosts: 460Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    no because the AI wont corpse camp me for hours on end with their max level character in the noob area.......

    camping for hours a noob char? no human would do that either, not even the most sociopathic pvpers that amount to be 0,0000000000(..long tirade of 0's...)0001% of the pvp playerbase in the world. 

     

    thats just the excuse that PvErs tell themselves to feel better and self-justified in their decition to not do PvP , when the thought that they maybe are just whinning liltle cowards pops in their minds.

     

    more often than not, its just a story heard from the cousin's nephew of your best friends wife's niece, about a guy killing a noob a bunch of times. then, because their weak minds simply cant take it, they quit in advance, rationalizing that if that guy killed the other guy a few times, he could kill him for hours...ergo, he will do it....

     

    then, in their minds it scalates from "its bound to happen!" to "it already happened!" and finally " it happens all the time!"...

    and thus is how a PvEr that hates PvP is born

     

    Without Jedi mind tricks like those casted on themselves, most PvPhaters wouldnt be able to look in the mirror ever again. Its always better for the ego to dellude yourself into thinking that you'r taking a decition based on "facts", instead of fear and cowardice

  • kragekrage Miami, FLPosts: 419Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by tkreep
    If AI was as advanced human intelligence than trinity system is useless. 

    So how would you beat NPC with human level of intelligence?

    True human like AI would turn setting up tank aggro and healing in a dungeon crawl to more of a PVP arena match.

    The goal is always to keep the enemy off your healer or squishy support/dps with CC and kiting, while simultaneously attempting to position yourselves to kill their healer or squishiest support/dps or overextended/vulnerable player.

    Usually this is done by letting one side over extend, and flipping targets to the pursuing dps while CC'ing their healer or support. Alot of cooldown tracking is also used to identify who is weak and when, like forcing the healer to blow all their cool downs while prepping your burst damage cooldowns with your partner to blowup the target.

    I also must say that even in PVP , Tanks were still used with great success, especially Warhammer Online, and even WoW. Tanks had a niche role in certain high level strategies that include flag carrying, point defense, CC/stuns to isolate players or peel for squishier support/healer/dps. 

    When the AI is particularly dumb (aka the standard in existing MMOs) then the trinity is a solution to create a "strategic/tactical" environment which is not bad at all imo, just something we should seek to move past in the industry.

    Really you can have a tank, healer, DPS, support hybrids, and CC specialists without a trinity setup. It just all depends on the type of enemy and using the proper counter, assuming each NPChas a set of attack preferences or strategy.

    Thinking about it I can see how EQN can make a claim of having abilities for the roles, but no set roles, as long as they can deliver a better AI, unlike any AI in current MMOs. 

    image
  • DivonaDivona WellingtonPosts: 175Member
    Doesn't matter how advance AI are, if I rolled 20 and they rolled 1, I still win.
  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    If the NPC AI is as capable as another player, thus PVE and PVP distinction becomes moot, wouldn't that bring up the serious question of: Are we committing genocide against sentient cyber entities?

    image
  • MiviMivi RomePosts: 80Member Uncommon

    an advanced AI is not like pvp
    cause an advance AI doesn't have a crappy attidute, doesn't try to take advance over exploits and bugs, doesn't willing to jump only in fight when he have the numerical advantage and doesn't is the first to escape at soon the situation overturns.
    basically an advanced AI is still too stupid to play unfair, I like that

  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    no because the AI wont corpse camp me for hours on end with their max level character in the noob area.......

    The problem here is not the players per se.

    The problem is shoving level based gameplay down our throats. In My opinion PvP and Level based gameplay have no place together unless specifically designed with PvP gameplay in mind.

    There is nothing someone can do no matter how good they are against a character 5-10 levels above you when the strength damage and damage mitigation of the character is defined by their level.

    Again in a game such as WoW, open PvP servers, if you choose to play in them, you pretty much had to tough it up until you reached max level your self and the plain became equal.

    All these problems happened in my opinion because some in the industry wanted to bring the genre towards a different direction without taking under account PvP and the competitive style of play.

    Most level based MMOs were designed for Player vs Environment anyways, PvP enabled servers are there to cater that portion of players and were offered in most cases at last moment without any thought or prepapration (Age of Conan, WoW etc), the games themselves were not designed for this.

    So I would not blame the players for poor design decisions.

    Having said this, I have found that most players behaving like this inspite of the facts are actually kids for the lolz. It is simply Bully behaviour and as many of us may know by now Bullying is a problem in RL too, it is bound to express itself 10 fold in to what is perceived a harmless game where no one gets hurt really...at least physically. I never went on a killing spree of lower levels in any of these games, nor did any of my guild mates. That is not PvP for us, and we are not bullies.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
    Hey OP - if it's the same thing, which you're trying so hard to convince everyone of, why don't you just play PvE from now on?  I mean it's the same thing right, so you should have no problem with that.
  • czombieczombie Monroe, MIPosts: 82Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

    but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

    in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

    but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

    but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

    So why do you want that? 

    I don't like gankers camping low-level areas PvP.  Any other type of PvP I don't have a problem with, although even being purposely targeted by players of an equal level is a distraction from the primary PvE goals of finishing content, getting loot and leveling.  However, my main problem with PvP is my dislike of many of the people behind the other keyboards, not the existence of it in and of itself.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    There are several conceits in the OP

    1) that we'd go from non existent AI to an AI level that doesn't exist anywhere today.

    the following assumes the AI in 1 did exist and was used in a game

    2) that there is only 1 level of AI used in the game and nothing inbetween.

    3) That the AI would be let loose with no behavioral restrictions placed in it or human monitoring on it.

    4) That the AI would have a psychotic personality.

    5) That the AI would be the same for all MOBs

    6) That the AI would be allowed to be crass and vulgar in communication with Players.

    probably many other but that will do for now

     

  • PanthienPanthien ZaandamPosts: 559Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

    but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

    in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

    but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

    but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

    So why do you want that? 

    No. Personally I dont find pvp more challenging, half the players seem clueless, and nearly every player is VERY predicteble, especially in trinity based games.

    INfact.. Im kinna getting to the point you are picking straws to keep pushing your pvp desires onto others over and over, today we have a new wrapper. So what you are saying all these years pve players wanted pvp since the game, in your own words was simulated pvp, yet you are flat out wrong.

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