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I just paid $12,500 for a F2P game

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,764Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone

    You're splitting hairs over the semantics of a slimy marketting buzzphrase.   Some people see through the facade and feel the term is disingenuous to the point of dishonest.  What you say may seem perfectly rational in your own mind, but your passionate defence of the term is only reinforcing how toxic the term is in mine.

    What I'm saying is perfectly rational period, not just in my own mind.  The game is free to play.  You can play the game for free.

    The only bad F2P design is pay2win design, which compromises gameplay integrity.  All the lateral-purchase games out there are perfectly fine, and you're simply overreacting to dislike them so much (and actually depriving yourself of some fantastic game experiences.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by maplestone

    You're splitting hairs over the semantics of a slimy marketting buzzphrase.   Some people see through the facade and feel the term is disingenuous to the point of dishonest.  What you say may seem perfectly rational in your own mind, but your passionate defence of the term is only reinforcing how toxic the term is in mine.

    What I'm saying is perfectly rational period, not just in my own mind.  The game is free to play.  You can play the game for free.

    The only bad F2P design is pay2win design, which compromises gameplay integrity.  All the lateral-purchase games out there are perfectly fine, and you're simply overreacting to dislike them so much (and actually depriving yourself of some fantastic game experiences.)

    Advocating playing pay to win games is not something you should do on these forums even if you have the best examples in the world.

    image
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    My subscription to EQ2 for the past 8 years and expansions has cost nearly $2000. Comparatively the LOTRO lifers got a good deal. The $12k pack is an outlier and is more of a charitable donation than a purchase.
  • WalterWhiteWalterWhite CardiffPosts: 394Member Uncommon

    If people have the cash to spend insanely large amounts on a F2P MMO, good luck to them but you won't see me doing it.

    To pay silly amounts of money for virtual items is bonkers when that cash could have been used for a car or clothes, maybe a better PC or TV but it is their decision.

    image

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,764Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Incorrect, for a developer you certainly can't differentiated between playing the core game in its uninhibited form and playing it in a crippled form. Arguably in the latter you're not actually playing the game even with experience playing to core gameplay experience (ex: I've played DDO until I started hitting paywalls and gated content at which point I quite because those in my opinion do not make a F2P game, those make a Freemium at best, Pay to Win at worse, game).

    Clarification: Inhibiting the core gameplay experience is gating or restricting access to features behind paywalls. This is not free to play, this is as mentioned above either freemium or pay to win (eternal crusade will use a freemium system for example but that game is not free to play). 

    Your words: "I've played DDO" (for free)
     
    Do we really need to say anything more?
    • It's objective truth that free to play games are free to play.
    • It's subjective opinion that you dislike it.
    Opinion doesn't change the truth.  That's not how it works.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    Do you actually believe you are meant to play these games for free?   If you are playing these games you are meant to pay for your play time, in the cash shop.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • EmbororEmboror TamperePosts: 8Member
    12500 $  ??? That sounds more like a helluva scam than... anything else. Graz if they manage to milk some fools so much money.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,222Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Attend4455

    Mind blown, how can you call these game free-to-play when they allow this?

    Can you play the game?  For free?

    Well then...

    but can you play the game for free? or just fragments of it ?

    you let this one out and this is where the dissagreements are.

    we're all agreeing on the two words you highlighted. not on the one I did.

    Uh oh, someone isn't getting enough for free.  I smell entitlement working its way in here.

    I translated the green part we're disagreeing about.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    What I'm saying is perfectly rational period, not just in my own mind.  The game is free to play.  You can play the game for free.

    And yet, I still disagree with you.  I'd like to believe we've had enough pleasant conversations that this should raise some alarm bells that perhaps there's another angle to this discussion.

    You appear to be focused on the individual and the idea of what an individual can theoretically budget. That's a fair way to look at the world, consistent with a philosophy of strict individual responsibility and what you say is competely reasonable within that context.  The problem is that I don't look at the world and my place in it that way.

    I'm focused on the whole community and counting myself as just one random piece of it until my decisions and resolve are actually tested.   The average revenue per player is not $0.  Therefore, in my mind, it's not free.  It might end up being free.  It might end up that the highly paid analysts will actually find the guantlet of carrots and sticks that changes my mind and breaks my resolve.  I have the humility to accept that I do not have perfect willpower.  And my estimate of the cost of the game is weighted by not just what I *intend* to pay, but also all the possible moments of weakness that might occur along the way.  And that's where I begin to look at the term "F2P" with emotions varying from suspicion to outright disgust.

    I'm not saying that you have to look at the world my way.  I'm not saying you have to agree that my way is even a good way to look at it.  But if you don't respect the fact that I look at it this way instead of your way, then I'm going to take some offense.

     

  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon

    F2P games compared to the old demos that they used to put out are like the one time when I told my grandma that a loaf of bread cost $1.57 and she started talking some non-sense about a nickle.

    No one ever said it was "Free to play and possibly win".  I thought most of us understood that.

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  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Emboror
    12500 $  ??? That sounds more like a helluva scam than... anything else. Graz if they manage to milk some fools so much money.

    Lol?

     

    People are forgetting that there are wealthy people that would like to support Path of Exile because they love the game. It is far more of a large donation than an item mall buy and the customer knows it. 

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Incorrect, for a developer you certainly can't differentiated between playing the core game in its uninhibited form and playing it in a crippled form. Arguably in the latter you're not actually playing the game even with experience playing to core gameplay experience (ex: I've played DDO until I started hitting paywalls and gated content at which point I quite because those in my opinion do not make a F2P game, those make a Freemium at best, Pay to Win at worse, game).

    Clarification: Inhibiting the core gameplay experience is gating or restricting access to features behind paywalls. This is not free to play, this is as mentioned above either freemium or pay to win (eternal crusade will use a freemium system for example but that game is not free to play). 

    Your words: "I've played DDO" (for free)
     
    Do we really need to say anything more?
    • It's objective truth that free to play games are free to play.
    • It's subjective opinion that you dislike it.
    Opinion doesn't change the truth.  That's not how it works.

    You are aware you're also stating an opinion right? I also did not play DDO in the real sense of the word because I did not get to enjoy the whole game uninhibited.

    I can dismantle your arguments very simply btw with this:

    Game

    Noun- form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

    A Free to Play game follows that definition in as much as allowing skill, strength or luck to decide the outcome of any interaction within it because the game is free to play. A Freemium or Pay to Win game does not because luck and skill are partially or completely supplanted by paying player exclusive enhancements (strength possibly as well depending if the respective game uses a vertical progression system or not).

    image
  • MightykingMightyking CapellePosts: 233Member Uncommon

    People still seem to want make a distinction between F2P and P2W, but I don't think there is one.

    Faster mounts, XP potions, scrolls that give you more currency, Cooldown reducements, Fast-travel options, all these things do give you benefits over someone who doesn't pay, or can not pay. It's like stepping into a casino, and because you have more money, you get to pick an extra card. The game is not equal for everyone and by definition the competitve aspects of the game become imbalanced.

    Even current games who are praised for their cash shop currently, risk going this path. When at the end of the year the economy department tell the technical department that the financial situation needs drastic measures, then there's two things to do: 1. pull the plug, 2. make those items that really sell.

    Don't get me wrong, I've played some F2P games. I am really impressed by Rift's model, where you don't even notice the game is free to play, except for a tiny little button. I supported the game by spending 50 euro's to buy some bag slots and the souls (character), which is basically paying for the expansion. Yet, this decision does give me an advantage over someone else.

    The better F2P games will spend a lot of effort in finding out how to get money from their clients in the same way we are used to in real life. Is that really what we want? Smell enhancers at the bakery, music to stimulate sales, colour palettes to make things look better, or making someone stand in a town wearing all the bling one could buy and "he looks so cool".

    I don't know, I still prefer to pay for the real value online games offer, and that is one fee to pay the game, and a monthly fee that is used for development and maintenance of the systems.

  • crasset15crasset15 TallinnPosts: 183Member
    Games can be completely F2P without any monetisation, but it isn't common. America's Army 2 for example, a FPS with quite a large following back in the day, was completely free for the players, because it was funded by the US taxpayers/government.
  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon
    Star Wars makes you pay for an extra hotbar LOL.  Just throwing that out there.  But still, I have never seen Final Fantasy in any form because Square Enix doesn't support free to play, demo, free trial, or anything.  Heck, I couldn't even find the website for the MMO itself for the longest time, and thus that game went ignored.

    image
  • stayBlindstayBlind Suwannee, GAPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Emboror
    12500 $  ??? That sounds more like a helluva scam than... anything else. Graz if they manage to milk some fools so much money.

    Lol?

     

    People are forgetting that there are wealthy people that would like to support Path of Exile because they love the game. It is far more of a large donation than an item mall buy and the customer knows it. 

    QFT

    I find it all the posts about "OMG there are starving people in the world that could use that money. Whoever spends that much on a game is an idiot" posts ridiculous.

    How much a week do the people who say such things spend on things that they do not NEED.

    Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  • SagasaintSagasaint Miami, FLPosts: 460Member

    I remember a thread in TERA forums about an arabian guy, I think either he or his family was into the petrol thingy or something like that

    amazingly rich by anyone's standards, he was asking the devs for some crappy ingame bling for thousands of dollars, just to be appart form the rest of peasants...mind you, it was something completly non gamebreaking, like having his char's names on orange and similar!

     

    he even posted RL pictures of him with the obliged "<3 tera forums" +date in a piece of paper he was holding, pics of his hou...scratch that, MANSION, his rig where he was playing TERA (and possibly launching NASA shuttles into space) and his bank account's balance to prove beyond reasonable doubt he was serious

     

    so yep, OP, you have to accept that people like that really exists. peeps that have SO MUCH money that they dont mind throwing it left and right on something they enjoy.

    that being a fleet of luxury cars or a MMO, doesnt matter. they do it because they can

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,764Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone

    And yet, I still disagree with you.  I'd like to believe we've had enough pleasant conversations that this should raise some alarm bells that perhaps there's another angle to this discussion.

    You appear to be focused on the individual and the idea of what an individual can theoretically budget. That's a fair way to look at the world, consistent with a philosophy of strict individual responsibility and what you say is competely reasonable within that context.  The problem is that I don't look at the world and my place in it that way.

    I'm focused on the whole community and counting myself as just one random piece of it until my decisions and resolve are actually tested.   The average revenue per player is not $0.  Therefore, in my mind, it's not free.  It might end up being free.  It might end up that the highly paid analysts will actually find the guantlet of carrots and sticks that changes my mind and breaks my resolve.  I have the humility to accept that I do not have perfect willpower.  And my estimate of the cost of the game is weighted by not just what I *intend* to pay, but also all the possible moments of weakness that might occur along the way.  And that's where I begin to look at the term "F2P" with emotions varying from suspicion to outright disgust.

    I'm not saying that you have to look at the world my way.  I'm not saying you have to agree that my way is even a good way to look at it.  But if you don't respect the fact that I look at it this way instead of your way, then I'm going to take some offense.

    I'm focused on the individual because "free to play" can always be true of the individual.  Anything else is irrelevant.

    If a car's list price is $40,000 and 95% of people buy it at that price but some people get additional packages which drive the price up to $50,000, does the average cost per vehicle even matter?  Of course not.  The list price accurately reflects the basic price of the car.  The price tag isn't wrong just because some people choose to pay more.
     
    The same is true when the price starts out free.
     
    You're free to have the opinion of disliking free to play games for the reasons you've stated.  But these games can be played for free, and you can't really dispute that truth, or the accuracy of calling them "free to play" if in a typical game 95% of people play for free (in many cases more than 95%.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Attend4455

    Mind blown, how can you call these game free-to-play when they allow this?

    Can you play the game?  For free?

    Well then...

    but can you play the game for free? or just fragments of it ?

    you let this one out and this is where the dissagreements are.

    we're all agreeing on the two words you highlighted. not on the one I did.

    Uh oh, someone isn't getting enough for free.  I smell entitlement working its way in here.

    I translated the green part we're disagreeing about.

    are you using the cash shop nose or the freebie one ? that might explain the problem.

     

    see my sig for future details.

    image

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    You're free to have the opinion of disliking free to play games for the reasons you've stated.

    I've said my peace as well as I think I can, so if you don't mind II think I'll resist nitpicking your portayal of car salesmen as paragons of honesty and just focus on this line, thank you, and bow out of the conversation.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,764Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    You are aware you're also stating an opinion right? I also did not play DDO in the real sense of the word because I did not get to enjoy the whole game uninhibited.

    I can dismantle your arguments very simply btw with this:

    Game

    Noun- form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

    A Free to Play game follows that definition in as much as allowing skill, strength or luck to decide the outcome of any interaction within it because the game is free to play. A Freemium or Pay to Win game does not because luck and skill are partially or completely supplanted by paying player exclusive enhancements (strength possibly as well depending if the respective game uses a vertical progression system or not).

    If you didn't play DDO, what did you do to the game?

    The "free to play games aren't even games" part of your post is wrong to such a degree where I'm not sure if you're actually being serious.  Skill is still involved, whether you purchase nothing, with lateral purchases, or with vertical purchases.  In all cases of actual F2P games which exist, these games are still games, even if the genuinely bad designs (vertical purchases) completely ruin the quality of their gameplay by selling those veritcal power increases.

    In nearly all cases (95%+ players never pay, and the most popular F2P games use lateral purchases) the skill element is completely intact.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Wish I had more rich friends who could afford to pay these amounts, maybe they'd pay the same for me as well.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    I have been playing POE on and off since launch and have not paid a penny...  I ahve also played the other games you listed and not paid a penny..

     

    There are currenty 2 f2p games i spend money on World of tanks and War Thunder and I just pay for premium every month so i can skill up a bit faster, but I am currently not playing anything else so I dont mind spending a bit of my entertainment.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,764Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I've said my peace as well as I think I can, so if you don't mind II think I'll resist nitpicking your portayal of car salesmen as paragons of honesty and just focus on this line, thank you, and bow out of the conversation.

    Since you got completely sidetracked by the car salesman example:

    • A charm bracelet's pricetag says $1.  Just because you can buy additional $1 charms to put on it doesn't make the bracelet's pricetag wrong.
    • A Playstation 3 with God of War is $299.99.  Just because you can purchase additional games doesn't make the PS3's pricetag wrong.
    • Coffee at a rest stop is free.  You may choose to donate to those nice people providing it, but that doesn't mean the coffee isn't free.
    Stuff costs what it costs.  Free to play games cost nothing.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Attend4455

    quote :

     

    these are games that let you pay $200.

    https://warframe.com/founders

    http://nw.perfectworld.com/neverwinterpack

    (Firefall is only $100) https://accounts.firefallthegame.com/purchases/specialty_packs

    (Path of Exile offers a $12,500 pack though!) https://www.pathofexile.com/purchase

    (Also, some MMOs, such as LOTRO and STO, offered Lifetime subscriptions for $200)

    Of course, these are all F2P: a small portion of the players will pay the $200, and other players pay other amounts. So I guess your point remains valid: would anyone pay $200 for a non-F2P?

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195145/the_shame_game_an_interview_with_.php

     

    Mind blown, how can you call these game free-to-play when they allow this?

    Yes i can. First, they are free to play not free to have all in game for free. Second, i dont care for idiots who loose their money bebouse they are mentally too weak to resist.

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