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A linear game

Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

I have heard several remarks about how linear this game is compared with Skyrim, because in Skyrim you can go everwhere on the map the minute you start the game.

 

This is not so in TESO, but that does not make this a linear game, far from.  

 

So far after finishing the starter area which is about 1/4 the size of Skyrim you can travel everywhere you want in the outdoor world of your alliance, but keep in mind that most areas might be very dangerous as you are not powerfull enough yet to face the ennemies inthere, doing this and returning later to face those vile ennemies and then being able to defeat them is what gives that sweet taste of progression, thats something most RPG players really love.  But there will be no boundries keeping you from finding your very own death. So as soon as you left the starter areas there is full freedom in exploration, its just very dangerous.

 

your life from 1 to 50 consists mainly of finding adventures trough killing things and or helping people that you meet on your explorations. There is no straight path and noboddy holding your hand. The quests are there to tell you stories, but if you dont like stories you can travel around and jump intoo every pihole or dungeon you find around, alone or with your friends. There are many many open world dungeons aiming at small group play. Keep in mind that altough your alliances world is divided into zones it still is several times the size of Skyrim.. Personally i am hoping that there will be several areas to  play in for every levelrange, because this will be very important for the MMO non linearity, i have no answer to that question... Will there be several zones for each level range in a set alliance.

keep in mind that many quests involve choices, and some of he mainquests are phased and instanced to add to the story telling capabillities of the quests. This however does not add to linearity in my book.  Its just a single step you take, and it even adds to the non linearity of you character, as they can add much more choice that way.. But then whole Skyrim was a personal instance so having onlybpart of the game instanced is for MMO players a huge advancement, and people that love stories and lore will adore this.

 

at 50 however the whole game changes. You get a full world of equall level stuff where you can travel freely trough the ennemies alliance zones as you where used in Skyrim. This is where the Skyrim players will find all their freedom back, and go everywhere they want. Something telse me these zones will feel much more sandboxy like the good old daggerfall game.

 

Also starting at level 11 there are 8 full PvP zones where you can go wherever you want, doing either PvP or PvE..  Free travel and exploration for all

 

Compared to the other major storybased mmos this game will feel much less linear ( swtor and tsw) and what would an elder scrolls game be withouth storiesvand quests.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

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Comments

  • psychosiszzpsychosiszz londonPosts: 43Member

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    I have heard several remarks about how linear this game is compared with Skyrim, because in Skyrim you can go everwhere on the map the minute you start the game.

     

    This is not so in TESO, but that does not make this a linear game, far from.  

     

    So far after finishing the starter area which is about 1/4 the size of Skyrim you can travel everywhere you want in the outdoor world of your alliance, but keep in mind that most areas might be very dangerous as you are not powerfull enough yet to face the ennemies inthere, doing this and returning later to face those vile ennemies and then being able to defeat them is what gives that sweet taste of progression, thats something most RPG players really love.  But there will be no boundries keeping you from finding your very own death. So as soon as you left the starter areas there is full freedom in exploration, its just very dangerous.

     

    your life from 1 to 50 consists mainly of finding adventures trough killing things and or helping people that you meet on your explorations. There is no straight path and noboddy holding your hand. The quests are there to tell you stories, but if you dont like stories you can travel around and jump intoo every pihole or dungeon you find around, alone or with your friends. There are many many open world dungeons aiming at small group play. Keep in mind that altough your alliances world is divided into zones it still is several times the size of Skyrim.. Personally i am hoping that there will be several areas to  play in for every levelrange, because this will be very important for the MMO non linearity, i have no answer to that question... Will there be several zones for each level range in a set alliance.

    keep in mind that many quests involve choices, and some of he mainquests are phased and instanced to add to the story telling capabillities of the quests. This however does not add to linearity in my book.  Its just a single step you take, and it even adds to the non linearity of you character, as they can add much more choice that way.. But then whole Skyrim was a personal instance so having onlybpart of the game instanced is for MMO players a huge advancement, and people that love stories and lore will adore this.

     

    at 50 however the whole game changes. You get a full world of equall level stuff where you can travel freely trough the ennemies alliance zones as you where used in Skyrim. This is where the Skyrim players will find all their freedom back, and go everywhere they want. Something telse me these zones will feel much more sandboxy like the good old daggerfall game.

     

    Also starting at level 11 there are 8 full PvP zones where you can go wherever you want, doing either PvP or PvE..  Free travel and exploration for all

     

    Compared to the other major storybased mmos this game will feel much less linear ( swtor and tsw) and what would an elder scrolls game be withouth storiesvand quests.

    I am sick and tired of these level based games where " The REAL game begins at 50". To me that makes the 1-49 experience nothing but one long linear tutorial.

    And once you hit 50, everything from 49 back is now pointless to go back to because it offers no challenge what so ever to a level 50. There-by becoming wasted content. Or as I call it, A World of Gray

    Level based Themepark games are linear by definition

    You are forever trapped in this bubble where you are only allowed to play [this much content]. It feels like an Amusement Park. You are either "too young to ride this, Kid" or "too old to ride this, Sir"

    I want a game where the "Real Game" begins right after Character Creation. Not 50 levels and untold hours later

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Effin_RabbitEffin_Rabbit Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 772Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    Agreed.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Having a LOT of linear stuff to do is still linear. I want a world that you travel around consistently. I don't want to use up zones or areas and never go back to them.
  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    I love questing that is non linear - it encourages travelling in new/possibly too high level for you areas and applies lore to the world. my worry is that history will repeat itself and those arguing for slick levelling experiences where they don't have to do 'boring travelling' do not realise that this equates to optimised quest routes aka hubs.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    I.e ^^ typical quest trail goes zone 1-1-1-1-2 (Just in time to make 2 away) 2-1-2-2-2-3-2-3-3.


    Non linear obviously 2-1-5-9-15-2-2-1-1. Etc. except 1-5 represents travelling!!

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    Can you please give me an example of a game that has thrived by doing this in the last 10 years? I actually prefer a level sort of feel as long as the path in those general zones feel open for exploration. I suspect others will feel the same. I would much rather have this then explore everywhere just to have everything level up with you like Oblivion did. On top of that, if you can explore just about everywhere at level 50 what difference does it make.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    There are different degrees of linearity so its short sited of you to lump everything into one. If a game feels like a corridor like TOR, its very linear, if it requires exploration without quest hubs, that is far less linear. Don't assume that all gamers feel that any degree is linearity is bad. If they did, games like WOW, GW2, Lord of the Rings Online, AOC, etc would have already shut their servers down. So many of you are in the minority.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by keithian
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    Can you please give me an example of a game that has thrived by doing this in the last 10 years? I actually prefer a level sort of feel as long as the path in those general zones feel open for exploration. I suspect others will feel the same. I would much rather have this then explore everywhere just to have everything level up with you like Oblivion did. On top of that, if you can explore just about everywhere at level 50 what difference does it make.

    An example of what? Linear level based progression? EQ, DAoC, WoW, WAR, SWTOR, etc. If you are asking for some other type of explanation then you will have to be a bit more specific as Im not sure what the "this" is that you require and explanation of

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • StrangerousStrangerous ny, ILPosts: 165Member

    If its anything like TES, it will have story chains with optional paths and its not going to be linear to where you must complete x,y,z before you can move on.

    Games typically portion out content based on your level, which sucks, and uses the storyline to hand hold you in a straight path as you advance.  TES has never done this, im not sure why ESO would do that either.

     

    There are a lot of people who seem to know exactly what this game is like, privy to knowledge the rest of us are not.  Thing is that actual people with hands on experience say the opposite.

     

    Its hard to tell, but rest assured there are a lot of people that will make their full time job trashing the game.

     

    Personally im playing it as the next installment of TES.  Don't care about endgame (if its good ill stick around ofc) don't care about buzzwords or appealing to the no-grind ADD kids...if its a good TES game ill be happy no matter what the price is.

     

    The rest you can go about fighting over stuff no one knows about and placing the arbitrary standards on a game that seem to only apply to mmorpgs...mainly that this game is going to fail if it doesn't keep 10mil players subbed for 10 years...which seems to be the standard argument for all games failing.  If its a $60 game and I play it for 1 month, and its up to par with TES, ill be more than happy, could care less if pvp is bad or the endgame isn't anything special.  And yeah I kinda feel bad for a lot of these kids who need a mmorpg to fill a void in their life and place emotions typically reserved for real relationships with other people on game.  Most obvious is the scorn and heartbreak when a gamer overhypes a game in his own mind and then it turns out to only be fun for a month or two, which quickly turns to rage and vengeance...its really sad and you see it with every new launch.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon

    Anyone who calls ESO linear has no idea what the definition is.

    "Arranged in or extending along a straight or nearly straight line: "linear arrangements"

    "Consisting of or predominantly formed using lines or outlines"

     

    The only portion in the game that is linear is the levels themselves, 1 -50. The rest of the game, such as level areas, we do not know enough information to be able to say that it is linear. Such as, how much stronger will the enemies be? For all we know, there could be a lot of leeway. You could go to a higher level area and possibly do just fine as long as you are not trying to go to anything that is 10+ above your level.

    However, even so, that certainly doesn't make an entire game linear. The fact that you can do quests randomly, explore in random directions, and have different results across many players is the complete opposite of linear.

    Again basically, anyone who is calling it linear, doesn't know what the heck linear means. You can't just point out the levels and say the entire game is linear, that is kinda dumb. That is like saying Minecraft is linear because it has levels, and we all know how stupid of a statement that would be.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    As opposed to what? The "reality" of freedom in a non-level based game. If you're not seeing the illusion in those games you're just not looking behind the curtain.

    All games, by definition have artificial limits. There is no true freedom in any of them. Otherwise they'd be chaotic messes. You don't think there's a lack of freedom in EQN's new "rallying call" (or whatever it's called)  feature? You start with an empty plot and eventually you end up with a castle...built brick by brick in a linear fashion as a community effort. It's a neat idea and all but I see linearity there.  

    And that's a game without levels... which is another illusion. All they're really doing is disguising the leveling process by getting you to go on an ability scavenger hunt to unlock new classes...with new abilities... so you can multi-class, grow and become more powerful ... pretty damn similar to what ESO is doing except ESO has levels.  So this is linear and that isn't? Give me a frigging break.

    I see progression in both: one with the numbers 1-50 and the other one without numbers...pretty damn similar character development regardless. And the reason both have progression is because if they didn't the game would be excruciatingly boring. Developers know that.

    But you want us to believe that having levels is the defining characteristic of linearity?  Or that all mobs everywhere should be equally tough? And that there won't be anything you can do after playing a year that you couldn't have done on day one? How frigging boring is that?

    Sorry, I ain't buying what you're selling.

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member

    I always expect the game and asssumed it would be a linear game.  Sure we got exploration supposeively and there are leveled zones of sorts.  Hopefully it will be not a repeat of the exact same quests if you reroll or do alts in the same alliance and each alliance will have a different experience.

    For what it's worth Skyrim itself is very linear with the illusion of sandbox.

    Sandbox would be something like EVE where one can be a manufacturer, miner, explorer, missioner, pirate, researcher, worm hole specialist amongst other things to fuel the lifeblood of EVE.  Hopefully ESO won't be a corridor linear game like SWTOR or Neverwinter where options are out the window.

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin
     

    As opposed to what? The "reality" of freedom in a non-level based game. If you're not seeing the illusion in those games you're just not looking behind the curtain.

    All games, by definition have artificial limits. There is no true freedom in any of them. Otherwise they'd be chaotic messes. You don't think there's a lack of freedom in EQN's new "rallying call" (or whatever it's called)  feature? You start with an empty plot and eventually you end up with a castle...built brick by brick in a linear fashion as a community effort. It's a neat idea and all but I see linearity there.  

    And that's a game without levels... which is another illusion. All they're really doing is disguising the leveling process by getting you to go on an ability scavenger hunt to unlock new classes...with new abilities... so you can multi-class, grow and become more powerful ... pretty damn similar to what ESO is doing except ESO has levels.  So this is linear and that isn't? Give me a frigging break.

    I see progression in both: one with the numbers 1-50 and the other one without numbers...pretty damn similar character development regardless. And the reason both have progression is because if they didn't the game would be excruciatingly boring. Developers know that.

    But you want us to believe that having levels is the defining characteristic of linearity?  Or that all mobs everywhere should be equally tough? And that there won't be anything you can do after playing a year that you couldn't have done on day one? How frigging boring is that?

    Sorry, I ain't buying what you're selling.

    Your comparison has no validity to me. Just because I dont like much about ESO doesnt mean that Im an EQNext fanboi. I dont have any interest EQNext.

     

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Iselin
     

    As opposed to what? The "reality" of freedom in a non-level based game. If you're not seeing the illusion in those games you're just not looking behind the curtain.

    All games, by definition have artificial limits. There is no true freedom in any of them. Otherwise they'd be chaotic messes. You don't think there's a lack of freedom in EQN's new "rallying call" (or whatever it's called)  feature? You start with an empty plot and eventually you end up with a castle...built brick by brick in a linear fashion as a community effort. It's a neat idea and all but I see linearity there.  

    And that's a game without levels... which is another illusion. All they're really doing is disguising the leveling process by getting you to go on an ability scavenger hunt to unlock new classes...with new abilities... so you can multi-class, grow and become more powerful ... pretty damn similar to what ESO is doing except ESO has levels.  So this is linear and that isn't? Give me a frigging break.

    I see progression in both: one with the numbers 1-50 and the other one without numbers...pretty damn similar character development regardless. And the reason both have progression is because if they didn't the game would be excruciatingly boring. Developers know that.

    But you want us to believe that having levels is the defining characteristic of linearity?  Or that all mobs everywhere should be equally tough? And that there won't be anything you can do after playing a year that you couldn't have done on day one? How frigging boring is that?

    Sorry, I ain't buying what you're selling.

    Your comparison has no validity to me. Just because I dont like much about ESO doesnt mean that Im an EQNext fanboi. I dont have any interest EQNext.

     

    It's a game without levels that most people here who just have an interest in MMO news know something about these days...

    Here, I'll make it totally non-specific for you: levels has nothing to do with linearity and "freedom" in all MMOs is just an illusion.

    And what does "validity" have to do with anything? You expressed an opinion, nothing more. I'm simply pointing out the error of your ways...in my opinion.

  • RealbigdealRealbigdeal Vimont, QCPosts: 1,625Member

    It's really too bad that ESO is not gonna be a sandbox. It's what everyone wanted it to be including the fans of ESO. Only one whole area to go pvp and the rest of the world is safe. I mean wtf?? When you have faction system, there's no reason to place a safe zone in your game even inside cities or quest lobby.

    When i looked at the video on E3 or what ever it was, it looked to be even more linear than i thought it would have been and it's too late to change that even if the game will release in 2014 since they're now working on porting the whole game to consoles and this will be the doom of ESO.

    C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif

  • jesusjuice69jesusjuice69 Route 69, NDPosts: 276Member
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by keithian
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    Can you please give me an example of a game that has thrived by doing this in the last 10 years? I actually prefer a level sort of feel as long as the path in those general zones feel open for exploration. I suspect others will feel the same. I would much rather have this then explore everywhere just to have everything level up with you like Oblivion did. On top of that, if you can explore just about everywhere at level 50 what difference does it make.

    An example of what? Linear level based progression? EQ, DAoC, WoW, WAR, SWTOR, etc. If you are asking for some other type of explanation then you will have to be a bit more specific as Im not sure what the "this" is that you require and explanation of

    He said example, not explanation.  An example of a non linear game that is doing well. 

    TSW is a fairly non linear game for instance, but it failed miserably!

     

    His point is that no such game exists, because it can't be done well.   Leveling is a core mechanic of MMOs!  The only way to get rid of it completely is to make a game that isn't in the least bit challenging.  Not only is it no challenging, but it would have to not require you to get better at your character at as you level.  Every zone would have to be built under the assumption that the people walking in here are complete and utter noobs.

    You also leave the sense of achievement from going from one zone to the other.  You have a sense your character is progressing.  When your character seems stagnant, then you lose interest in the game, and you quit playing.  Character progression is at the cornerstone of MMOs!  Remove leveling, and you remove a huge a huge block from that cornerstone, and the whole thing comes crashing down.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Realbigdeal

    It's really too bad that ESO is not gonna be a sandbox. It's what everyone wanted it to be including the fans of ESO. Only one whole area to go pvp and the rest of the world is safe. I mean wtf?? When you have faction system, there's no reason to place a safe zone in your game even inside cities or quest lobby.

    When i looked at the video on E3 or what ever it was, it looked to be even more linear than i thought it would have been and it's too late to change that even if the game will release in 2014 since they're now working on porting the whole game to consoles and this will be the doom of ESO.

    Game looks fine to me. It may not be a sandbox, but elder scrolls never really was a sandbox to begin with. If it is, then so is ESO. I mean they essentially have the same game mechanics. As for PVP, you are complaining that you can't pvp everywhere, why? There is a huge gigantic area to pvp in. Also why would people of the same alliance be killing each other randomly?

    This whole pvp argument is used a lot, but really it doesn't make any sense to me why you would want pvp in an area, where pvp shouldn't be happening.

    Now don't get me wrong, a dueling system would be nice, and would make sense. I know they are not adding that in at release, but maybe they will afterwards.

    It's what everyone wanted? Why are you speaking for everyone? All I wanted was an Elder Scrolls game, and that is exactly what we are getting. You know .. it kinda makes sense, for it to be Elder scrolls since, ... that is what it is.

    You where able to judge the entire game by such a small amount of "old" gameplay footage?

    *sarcasm start* Matter of fact, you know what, I think you are right .. I swear I saw a leveling system. That totally makes the game linear! You know .. because the numbers go in order .. 1 through 50. Oh, and also .. I saw ... I saw a quest! That also makes the game linear because, quests are like so last year. *sarcasm end* 

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,618Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

     

    even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

     

    this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

    Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

    Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

    Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

    There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

    Linear is as Linear does.

    As opposed to what? The "reality" of freedom in a non-level based game. If you're not seeing the illusion in those games you're just not looking behind the curtain.

    All games, by definition have artificial limits. There is no true freedom in any of them. Otherwise they'd be chaotic messes. You don't think there's a lack of freedom in EQN's new "rallying call" (or whatever it's called)  feature? You start with an empty plot and eventually you end up with a castle...built brick by brick in a linear fashion as a community effort. It's a neat idea and all but I see linearity there.  

    And that's a game without levels... which is another illusion. All they're really doing is disguising the leveling process by getting you to go on an ability scavenger hunt to unlock new classes...with new abilities... so you can multi-class, grow and become more powerful ... pretty damn similar to what ESO is doing except ESO has levels.  So this is linear and that isn't? Give me a frigging break.

    I see progression in both: one with the numbers 1-50 and the other one without numbers...pretty damn similar character development regardless. And the reason both have progression is because if they didn't the game would be excruciatingly boring. Developers know that.

    But you want us to believe that having levels is the defining characteristic of linearity?  Or that all mobs everywhere should be equally tough? And that there won't be anything you can do after playing a year that you couldn't have done on day one? How frigging boring is that?

    Sorry, I ain't buying what you're selling.

    I have actually never looked at it this way but I believe he is correct when states that a level based game is just a different variation of linear.   Any perceived freedom of movement is relatively limited ,by the level of you character.   As was stated, either you can't go to a certain area because it would mean your death or you don't want to return to an area because it has no value to your leveling progress.   So you are essentially led by by your character to level appropriate areas in a more or less linear fashion.   Interesting.

     

    Having said that I am afraid I too just feel the need to have progression in the games I play.   I recently maxed a characeter in Fallen Earth, and I must admit, I am quite at a loss as to what to do next!  PvP doesn't  interest me.  I could craft some higher level stuff.  But without any real reason to use it ( other than PvP)  it seems rather pointless.   I finally had to admit to myself that I am a complete level whore.   Without any progression of my toon, the game sort of loses all interest for me.   I am definitely not an endgame person.   I used to think I would like sandbox gameplay but I know for sure I would not like the kind of openworld, anything goes kind of game that many here seem to crave.   I agree with Iselin, the result would be too chaotic and time consuming and probably not fun or relaxing for me, which is why I play games.  For people (mostly on the younger side I would think)  who crave this I can understand it, but I still think it would be a very difficult thing to pull off in an MMO.  Probably why we haven't seen too many attempts.

     

    Yup looks like I have to admit it.  I like a little freedom to move around in my games.  (Fallen Earth was just about the perfect amount for me)  But in the end its the linear progression that I really crave.   So yeah I won't be buying any either.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • DaakenDaaken New York, NYPosts: 158Member
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    Based on many beta feedback I've read these same exact complaints.  Sure the world might not be as linear as a WoW, but it is no where near open as Skyrim.  And I understand the limitations of having such a diverse level range in each zone.  But Zenimax could add in twice or three times the amount of Points of Interests for each level range.  Skipping the storyline and wandering off the linear path that is designed should be just as rewarding as staying on it.  An example, at level 5 say there are 3 or 4 quests to complete in an area they need to up that to a minimum of 10.  10 to 15 Points of interest per level is plenty to give the illusion they need to provide, any thing less then it borders on linearity IMO.

    Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.

    Me: So you want something like EQN

    Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.

    Me: Double Facepalm.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    Based on many beta feedback I've read these same exact complaints.  Sure the world might not be as linear as a WoW, but it is no where near open as Skyrim.  And I understand the limitations of having such a diverse level range in each zone.  But Zenimax could add in twice or three times the amount of Points of Interests for each level range.  Skipping the storyline and wandering off the linear path that is designed should be just as rewarding as staying on it.  An example, at level 5 say there are 3 or 4 quests to complete in an area they need to up that to a minimum of 10.  10 to 15 Points of interest per level is plenty to give the illusion they need to provide, any thing less then it borders on linearity IMO.

    Yeah but it couldn't possibly be as open as a single player TES game. Skyrim adapts itself to you personally by auto-tuning the mob difficulty in most cases. That is technically pretty easy to do since it's only you and your level it has to concern itself with. That would be impossible to do in an MMO...unless they just phase the shit out of the game...which would sort of defeat the purpose.

     

    When I think of "linear" I think of WOW, SWTOR, Rift... games with carefully controlled and tuned quest hubs where you are heavily directed to stick around an area until the golden exclamations over the NPC's head go away... at which point you're given a bread-crumb quest that directs you to the next hub.

     

    And even among those 3, SWTOR goes an extra step in linearity by limiting the environment around you and preventing you from veering off the (sometimes literally) narrow corridors where gameplay is allowed. They took linearity to a whole new level there while constantly teasing you with beautiful backdrops you could never visit.

     

    Even my first MMO, Asheron's Call, which many consider to have been a good non-linear MMO, had many areas where you would get your ass handed to you in seconds if you decided to go there before you were powerful enough. The only difference there was that they didn't try to coddle you by attempting to heavily direct you... you could go to those areas by accident in some cases and that created a sense of openness and danger.

     

    Make no mistake, ESO is a themepark just like 99% of big budget MMORPGs. But as themeparks go, it is nowhere near as linear as the 3 I mentioned above. They're taking steps to try to create the illusion (and it's all illusion folks) of openness by making many of their quests discoverable through exploration and minimizing the use of hubs.

     

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by psychosiszz

    Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

    I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

    Based on many beta feedback I've read these same exact complaints.  Sure the world might not be as linear as a WoW, but it is no where near open as Skyrim.  And I understand the limitations of having such a diverse level range in each zone.  But Zenimax could add in twice or three times the amount of Points of Interests for each level range.  Skipping the storyline and wandering off the linear path that is designed should be just as rewarding as staying on it.  An example, at level 5 say there are 3 or 4 quests to complete in an area they need to up that to a minimum of 10.  10 to 15 Points of interest per level is plenty to give the illusion they need to provide, any thing less then it borders on linearity IMO.

    Yeah but it couldn't possibly be as open as a single player TES game. Skyrim adapts itself to you personally by auto-tuning the mob difficulty in most cases. That is technically pretty easy to do since it's only you and your level it has to concern itself with. That would be impossible to do in an MMO...unless they just phase the shit out of the game...which would sort of defeat the purpose.

     

    When I think of "linear" I think of WOW, SWTOR, Rift... games with carefully controlled and tuned quest hubs where you are heavily directed to stick around an area until the golden exclamations over the NPC's head go away... at which point you're given a bread-crumb quest that directs you to the next hub.

     

    And even among those 3, SWTOR goes an extra step in linearity by limiting the environment around you and preventing you from veering off the (sometimes literally) narrow corridors where gameplay is allowed. They took linearity to a whole new level there while constantly teasing you with beautiful backdrops you could never visit.

     

    Even my first MMO, Asheron's Call, which many consider to have been a good non-linear MMO, had many areas where you would get your ass handed to you in seconds if you decided to go there before you were powerful enough. The only difference there was that they didn't try to coddle you by attempting to heavily direct you... you could go to those areas by accident in some cases and that created a sense of openness and danger.

     

    Make no mistake, ESO is a themepark just like 99% of big budget MMORPGs. But as themeparks go, it is nowhere near as linear as the 3 I mentioned above. They're taking steps to try to create the illusion (and it's all illusion folks) of openness by making many of their quests discoverable through exploration and minimizing the use of hubs.

     

    I actually agree with both of you. I think all games feel more open when you can get to end level with multiple paths, I agree what was said about TOR, I agree about the illusion of exploration, but in the end, we just arn't sure yet just how linear or less linear it really is except for some feedback either from leaked beta or from the 2 hour impressions.  I didn't really understand just how linear TOR felt until I got out of the start zones and then said to myself around level 20, I don't think I could possibly play through that again if it was pretty much the same stuff. It does appear that ESO is trying to feel less linear than competing games due to that exploration focus, but we will know just by how much hopefully soon.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon

    Lol. Even in here we do have discussion and comparsion to EQN. Why?

    In all honestly, there is no fucking reason, why different games should be different. It is the damn purpose of it, isn't it?

    And another point. Yeah.. sandbox there, sandbox here. Hell, i am a old school sandbox player. BUT, i game have not to be a sandbox to be good. And the exact same thing is about linearity.. whats wrong with it? It is different, it does have some flaws, but nevertheless advantages, too.

    I ask you that. What is a story? YES.. it is fucking linear. So for storytelling purposes you need some linearity.

    Why oh why.. can a game not be good for what it is. And why should we compare it to another game, even another concept?

    And in all honestly.. i am a old school Elder Scroll Player.. and although it will be often considered as sandboxish, it isn't that much. It does have a story.. different ones even.. and you progress along the way. You do have options, but finally you will come to an end.. therefore it is linear. A sandbox game in comparsion would be a game with no end at all.

    So please stop that discussion.. especially it isn't worth it. Games can be different. And games can be good independent of beeing a sandbox or a themepark, being linear or not. As long as a game does that well, what it is supposed to be, it will be a satisfying experience.

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