I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but we can already see where having a limited action bar coupled with abilities tied to equipped weapons, will pretty much turn into another one or 2 ability spammer combat system.
Please no more 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 action combat systems.
I have too much crap on my bars in RIFT, so much that I'm always trying new macros to combine a bunch of skills. I have too few skills in Neverwinter, I get bored just mash mash mashing the same number like a meat puppet. I had too many in WoW, FFXIV has just about the right amount at level 30.
Basically anything over 2 12 slot hotbars is too much IMO.
Targeting where I have to have crosshairs on a target and swivel the camera all over the place, I liked it a lot in TERA, less in GW2, less in Neverwinter. Now I'm over it and actually enjoy tab targeting again and target of target for healing/dps.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but we can already see where having a limited action bar coupled with abilities tied to equipped weapons, will pretty much turn into another one or 2 ability spammer combat system.
Please no more 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 action combat systems.
It depends on how good the skill designers at SOE are.
Greatsword Skill 1: Horizontal Slash (+damage if target burning) ->Downwards Slash(+damage if target burning) -->Upwards Slash (launches foe if target is dazed)
Greatsword Skill 2: (20 second cooldown) Consecrate Greatsword (30% burning on sword attacks for 10 seconds) ->Consecrate Area (End Consecrate Greatsword early to set self on fire and purge all negative conditions from allies in 10' radius)
Greatsword Skill 3: (10 second cooldown) Leap at an enemy and perform a series of slashes (target is dazed if all hits connect) *can be canceled by player movement during slashes phase
Greatsword Skill 4: (15 second cooldown) Block the next attack with your Greatsword and daze the blocked attacker. *If you are moving while blocking, block all attacks for 6 seconds, blocked attacks will transfer all your negative conditions to attacker instead.
Is that people showing how retarded they are, when they say everquest 1, the proverbial father of mmos,stole from wow?
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
oh look, fewer skills force me to use my neurons in my brain to strategize..
its a role playing game, and i wanna see my character have access to lots of cool abilities because thats what rpgs have, are cool powers.. i have no idea why the hell anyone would complain and wanna limit themselves
plus i wanna see my character kick ass with lots of cool abilites not freakin 4 super limited ones..
and no, im not asking for 4 hot bars.. so stop with that argument too
The problem is that the developers are focussed on HOW players use the tools that the developers give them. They should be focussed on the reason WHY they players are using the tools in this manner.
Players are hitting 1,2,3 1,2 1,2,3 for a reason. The reason is that they have been given very generalized skills, and this is the best result that they can get. Changing the amount of abilities available just changes the amount of keys being hit. They are still finding the optimul combo, and repeating.
Imagine if you will, that an attack did different damage, based on the armor. So, it might be good against heavy armor, but poor against light armor. The same attack might also work well against magic armor, but not as good against non magical armor. Now, players have to consider the target, and choose the right attack... and imagine if all attacks/debuffs, etc had similar modifiers. What if these also had different durations and lengths, etc. Now, we have a very complicated system, that requires a high level of skill, and on the fly adaptation. We also have LOTS of abilities, because they are all a bit different.
As long as there is a 'best' combination, that generally works across all mobs, people will use it. It will not matter if they have 1 action bar, or 100. The only real change with action based combat, is that they have traded some action bars for in game movement. It is basically the same formula, just done in a differnt manner. If they had really wanted to change gameplay, they would have complicated the mix by making all abilities have trade offs, and ensuring that the 'best' patterns were learned each and every combat, on the fly....
I have too much crap on my bars in RIFT, so much that I'm always trying new macros to combine a bunch of skills. I have too few skills in Neverwinter, I get bored just mash mash mashing the same number like a meat puppet. I had too many in WoW, FFXIV has just about the right amount at level 30.
Basically anything over 2 12 slot hotbars is too much IMO.
Targeting where I have to have crosshairs on a target and swivel the camera all over the place, I liked it a lot in TERA, less in GW2, less in Neverwinter. Now I'm over it and actually enjoy tab targeting again and target of target for healing/dps.
I can agree with this. The action combat got old fast for me in MMOs. If I want it I got plenty of other games PS2, BF3 or even Tera.
Also I would be fine with 24 skills. OF MY CHOICE not dictated by a slot. If I want to go all out DPS or support/utility skills to help my group should be my choice... What is that SOE slogan they like to keep throwing at us
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but we can already see where having a limited action bar coupled with abilities tied to equipped weapons, will pretty much turn into another one or 2 ability spammer combat system.
Please no more 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 action combat systems.
It depends on how good the skill designers at SOE are.
Greatsword Skill 1: Horizontal Slash (+damage if target burning) ->Downwards Slash(+damage if target burning) -->Upwards Slash (launches foe if target is dazed)
Greatsword Skill 2: (20 second cooldown) Consecrate Greatsword (30% burning on sword attacks for 10 seconds) ->Consecrate Area (End Consecrate Greatsword early to set self on fire and purge all negative conditions from allies in 10' radius)
Greatsword Skill 3: (10 second cooldown) Leap at an enemy and perform a series of slashes (target is dazed if all hits connect) *can be canceled by player movement during slashes phase
Greatsword Skill 4: (15 second cooldown) Block the next attack with your Greatsword and daze the blocked attacker. *If you are moving while blocking, block all attacks for 6 seconds, blocked attacks will transfer all your negative conditions to attacker instead.
The problem, as I just mentioned in another thread is that when you have abilities tied to the weapon, those abilities are always there, always the same. As is the case in GW2, you have some abilities that work for condition builds while others are built for crit builds, all in the same bar. Well, if you are built for crits, what need do you have for a bleed ability in one of those valuable slots in your hotbar? Then pllayers wonder why it becomes a 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 fight. Because 3 isn't useful, unless you are a condition build, then 3 is useful but 2 isn't.
Now, of course, SoE might take this into consideration and allow us to tweak the abilities that go into the hot bar, or they may make it so the abilities are tied more to the playstyle/build rather than the class. Or it may be that the classes are much more rigid so a certain class will always be melee crit, I don't know.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but we can already see where having a limited action bar coupled with abilities tied to equipped weapons, will pretty much turn into another one or 2 ability spammer combat system. Please no more 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 action combat systems.
It depends on how good the skill designers at SOE are. Greatsword Skill 1: Horizontal Slash (+damage if target burning) ->Downwards Slash(+damage if target burning) -->Upwards Slash (launches foe if target is dazed) Greatsword Skill 2: (20 second cooldown) Consecrate Greatsword (30% burning on sword attacks for 10 seconds) ->Consecrate Area (End Consecrate Greatsword early to set self on fire and purge all negative conditions from allies in 10' radius) Greatsword Skill 3: (10 second cooldown) Leap at an enemy and perform a series of slashes (target is dazed if all hits connect) *can be canceled by player movement during slashes phase Greatsword Skill 4: (15 second cooldown) Block the next attack with your Greatsword and daze the blocked attacker. *If you are moving while blocking, block all attacks for 6 seconds, blocked attacks will transfer all your negative conditions to attacker instead.
The problem, as I just mentioned in another thread is that when you have abilities tied to the weapon, those abilities are always there, always the same. As is the case in GW2, you have some abilities that work for condition builds while others are built for crit builds, all in the same bar. Well, if you are built for crits, what need do you have for a bleed ability in one of those valuable slots in your hotbar? Then pllayers wonder why it becomes a 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 fight. Because 3 isn't useful, unless you are a condition build, then 3 is useful but 2 isn't.
Now, of course, SoE might take this into consideration and allow us to tweak the abilities that go into the hot bar, or they may make it so the abilities are tied more to the playstyle/build rather than the class. Or it may be that the classes are much more rigid so a certain class will always be melee crit, I don't know.
But knowing SoE, I'm not holding my breath.
Hopefully because there will be at least 40 classes, we won't see the same problem as with GW2 weapon sets. GW2 has compartmentalized itself way too much. I play a crit engi and I loathe pistol/pistol despite the fact that pistol/pistol has 1 skill I like. If there was 5 flavours of engi each using pistol/pistol differently, then I might not have that problem in GW2. XD
So, with only a couple skills there is no room for complexities and flexibility. No room for elemental resistances. No room situational skills. No room for FUN skills.
So pretty much no room for anything but twitch-twitch action combat. Leave the brain at home, and bring the hyper-active button fingers.
Even day 1 EverQuest had 8 skill hot buttons. But ALSO had social buttons that could be macro'd, non-skilled attack buttons like 'Kick' and 'Bash', etc...
This current fad does the MMO genre no favors, and serves only to feed the short attention span, content locusts.
Originally posted by evilastro If you can dumb down those 30 abilities into one damage / threat / heal priority supermacro, what's the point? Have yet to play a hotbar game that I haven't been able to supermacro. I'd rather have 8 meaningful and strategic skills like in EQN or GW1, than 30+ skills that get shoved into one button like on EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift etc.
look at that skill list. Now compare those skills to skills in a limited action bar game like GW1 and GW2.
WoW has more unique skills. In GW1 and 2 most of those skills only proc buffs or debuffs with different durations and some have added effects like fields. But other skills across classes and even in the same class share the same effects.
WoW on the other hand has many unique effects per skill. and many of them are situational, yes, but thats what seperates the skilled players from the unskilled is those who can manage those situational skills. the rotational skills are a given for the avg non-newby player. so not even going to count them.
Regarding the skill list, if you take away the damage / heal rotation skills and the buffs, you are left with few situational skills, usually on long cooldowns. Most buffs could be handled by gear or passives, temps could be handled by adding new effects onto existing skills and so on.
I would rather have less buttons but more situational / adaptive skills. Reactive skills that change based on the current state of combat or how you use the skill. For example a rogue could get a blinding cut if a mob / person is facing them, or a backstab if they are behind. Skills could also change from stealth like in Never winter. A mage might cast a single target high damage fireball from range but the skill becomes a medium damage fire area skill with a knockback (backdraft) when used on a nearby target.
In this day and age there is no need for cluttered hotbars. You can design meaningful and reactive combat without it. They either result in macro play or hotbar watching.
Originally posted by evilastro Regarding the skill list, if you take away the damage / heal rotation skills and the buffs, you are left with few situational skills, usually on long cooldowns. Most buffs could be handled by gear or passives, temps could be handled by adding new effects onto existing skills and so on.
I would rather have less buttons but more situational / adaptive skills. Reactive skills that change based on the current state of combat or how you use the skill. For example a rogue could get a blinding cut if a mob / person is facing them, or a backstab if they are behind. Skills could also change from stealth like in Never winter. A mage might cast a single target high damage fireball from range but the skill becomes a medium damage fire area skill with a knockback (backdraft) when used on a nearby target.
In this day and age there is no need for cluttered hotbars. You can design meaningful and reactive combat without it. They either result in macro play or hotbar watching.
its not gonna be situtational , its goign to be 4, do you poeple understand how limited 4 is? its less then NW, less then GW2 less then everything and those games skills are severly lacking in the diverstiy department.. use the same skills over and over..
your example of a rouge.. 2 skills from a rouge and then if you wanna "customize" your left with 2 slots left.. thats it, if you like 3 other abilities from the other 40 something classes.. your out of luck.. you can choose only 2 more out of the hundreds..., if your a pure rouge using up 4 slots you have no room for customization,
we dont need a bunch of bars but its insanely limited.. do you guys not understand that? at least 8 class skills and 4 weapon skills would be perfect.. it would be enough room for customizing while still keeping it limited and useful
Action combat is a lie. It's actually less action. You can sit there with your mouse and 5 skills and do everything you can with 30+ skills in tab targeting...I've yet to play an "Action" combat MMO that actually had my fingers stiffening up after a raid or big fight because I'm hitting keys all over my keyboard...that's alot more action
People who think 8 skill hotbars will be easier to master, HAVE NOT played decent 8 skill hotbar games. And need to shut up about it.
The problem is they believe that choosing which of 8 abilities is easier than choosing which of 40 to use, but the realty is that setting those 8 abilities up requires a great deal of knowledge, strategy and skill that they are simply discounting.
Originally posted by OldManFunk Originally posted by Redfeather75 People who think 8 skill hotbars will be easier to master, HAVE NOT played decent 8 skill hotbar games. And need to shut up about it.
The problem is they believe that choosing which of 8 abilities is easier than choosing which of 40 to use, but the realty is that setting those 8 abilities up requires a great deal of knowledge, strategy and skill that they are simply discounting.
They are possibly also used to games where each skill is a simple action.
Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.
Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.
Originally posted by evilastro Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.
honestly ive said a bunch of times you dont need a lot of hot bars just more variaty in a customization game with freakin 40 classes to choose from...
so why everytime you jump in, you go to the extreme and state poeple who want more skills want 6 hot bars of skills? and clutter up the screen? whats the reasoning behind that when i clearly didn't say that.
i dont care how much skills you use, i dont care if you use just 1 button because your that skilled... its the choice, and stop bringing up 6 hot bars when nobody is asking for that
Today I will pose this question. Is the new trend of MMOs, action oriented, fewer skills, and less hotbars? If you look at the old juggernauts of the MMO world, EQ 1, EQ 2, and Vanilla WoW, you literally were able to use all of your skills (usually 30+) at any given point. You were not limited to 8, 10, or 12. Fast forward 10 - 12 years later and you see games like GW2 with this action styled dodging and rolling around, while only being able to use a set amount of your skills during a single combat period.
Is this the way MMOs are leaning? What I think to be a more casualized, less intensive, easier learning style? Are MMO companies attempting to make combat more fun? Or are they instead trying to make it easier for the younger (or older) gamer?
You can see what he is spamming and clicking...while standing in place as an "action" class. This is what the trinity, tab targeting, and rows and rows of abilities gives for a challenge?
Comments
People who think 8 skill hotbars will be easier to master, HAVE NOT played decent 8 skill hotbar games.
And need to shut up about it.
I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but we can already see where having a limited action bar coupled with abilities tied to equipped weapons, will pretty much turn into another one or 2 ability spammer combat system.
Please no more 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 action combat systems.
I have too much crap on my bars in RIFT, so much that I'm always trying new macros to combine a bunch of skills. I have too few skills in Neverwinter, I get bored just mash mash mashing the same number like a meat puppet. I had too many in WoW, FFXIV has just about the right amount at level 30.
Basically anything over 2 12 slot hotbars is too much IMO.
Targeting where I have to have crosshairs on a target and swivel the camera all over the place, I liked it a lot in TERA, less in GW2, less in Neverwinter. Now I'm over it and actually enjoy tab targeting again and target of target for healing/dps.
No bitchers.
It depends on how good the skill designers at SOE are.
Greatsword Skill 1:
Horizontal Slash (+damage if target burning)
->Downwards Slash(+damage if target burning)
-->Upwards Slash (launches foe if target is dazed)
Greatsword Skill 2: (20 second cooldown)
Consecrate Greatsword (30% burning on sword attacks for 10 seconds)
->Consecrate Area (End Consecrate Greatsword early to set self on fire and purge all negative conditions from allies in 10' radius)
Greatsword Skill 3: (10 second cooldown)
Leap at an enemy and perform a series of slashes (target is dazed if all hits connect)
*can be canceled by player movement during slashes phase
Greatsword Skill 4: (15 second cooldown)
Block the next attack with your Greatsword and daze the blocked attacker.
*If you are moving while blocking, block all attacks for 6 seconds, blocked attacks will transfer all your negative conditions to attacker instead.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Lol. So what will this new sandbox MMO be?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
i really hate the argument of,
oh look, fewer skills force me to use my neurons in my brain to strategize..
its a role playing game, and i wanna see my character have access to lots of cool abilities because thats what rpgs have, are cool powers.. i have no idea why the hell anyone would complain and wanna limit themselves
plus i wanna see my character kick ass with lots of cool abilites not freakin 4 super limited ones..
and no, im not asking for 4 hot bars.. so stop with that argument too
The problem is that the developers are focussed on HOW players use the tools that the developers give them. They should be focussed on the reason WHY they players are using the tools in this manner.
Players are hitting 1,2,3 1,2 1,2,3 for a reason. The reason is that they have been given very generalized skills, and this is the best result that they can get. Changing the amount of abilities available just changes the amount of keys being hit. They are still finding the optimul combo, and repeating.
Imagine if you will, that an attack did different damage, based on the armor. So, it might be good against heavy armor, but poor against light armor. The same attack might also work well against magic armor, but not as good against non magical armor. Now, players have to consider the target, and choose the right attack... and imagine if all attacks/debuffs, etc had similar modifiers. What if these also had different durations and lengths, etc. Now, we have a very complicated system, that requires a high level of skill, and on the fly adaptation. We also have LOTS of abilities, because they are all a bit different.
As long as there is a 'best' combination, that generally works across all mobs, people will use it. It will not matter if they have 1 action bar, or 100. The only real change with action based combat, is that they have traded some action bars for in game movement. It is basically the same formula, just done in a differnt manner. If they had really wanted to change gameplay, they would have complicated the mix by making all abilities have trade offs, and ensuring that the 'best' patterns were learned each and every combat, on the fly....
I can agree with this. The action combat got old fast for me in MMOs. If I want it I got plenty of other games PS2, BF3 or even Tera.
Also I would be fine with 24 skills. OF MY CHOICE not dictated by a slot. If I want to go all out DPS or support/utility skills to help my group should be my choice... What is that SOE slogan they like to keep throwing at us
Free to Play YOUR way.
thane does not approve.
i don't like that!
i want buttonnnnnns
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
The problem, as I just mentioned in another thread is that when you have abilities tied to the weapon, those abilities are always there, always the same. As is the case in GW2, you have some abilities that work for condition builds while others are built for crit builds, all in the same bar. Well, if you are built for crits, what need do you have for a bleed ability in one of those valuable slots in your hotbar? Then pllayers wonder why it becomes a 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 fight. Because 3 isn't useful, unless you are a condition build, then 3 is useful but 2 isn't.
Now, of course, SoE might take this into consideration and allow us to tweak the abilities that go into the hot bar, or they may make it so the abilities are tied more to the playstyle/build rather than the class. Or it may be that the classes are much more rigid so a certain class will always be melee crit, I don't know.
But knowing SoE, I'm not holding my breath.
Hopefully because there will be at least 40 classes, we won't see the same problem as with GW2 weapon sets. GW2 has compartmentalized itself way too much. I play a crit engi and I loathe pistol/pistol despite the fact that pistol/pistol has 1 skill I like. If there was 5 flavours of engi each using pistol/pistol differently, then I might not have that problem in GW2. XD
So, with only a couple skills there is no room for complexities and flexibility. No room for elemental resistances. No room situational skills. No room for FUN skills.
So pretty much no room for anything but twitch-twitch action combat. Leave the brain at home, and bring the hyper-active button fingers.
Even day 1 EverQuest had 8 skill hot buttons. But ALSO had social buttons that could be macro'd, non-skilled attack buttons like 'Kick' and 'Bash', etc...
This current fad does the MMO genre no favors, and serves only to feed the short attention span, content locusts.
http://www.wowhead.com/class=2#spells
look at that skill list. Now compare those skills to skills in a limited action bar game like GW1 and GW2.
WoW has more unique skills. In GW1 and 2 most of those skills only proc buffs or debuffs with different durations and some have added effects like fields. But other skills across classes and even in the same class share the same effects.
WoW on the other hand has many unique effects per skill. and many of them are situational, yes, but thats what seperates the skilled players from the unskilled is those who can manage those situational skills. the rotational skills are a given for the avg non-newby player. so not even going to count them.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
the more the merrier, if you dont like that many, then dont use it! its your choice and your screen..
that should be the rule
I would rather have less buttons but more situational / adaptive skills. Reactive skills that change based on the current state of combat or how you use the skill. For example a rogue could get a blinding cut if a mob / person is facing them, or a backstab if they are behind. Skills could also change from stealth like in Never winter. A mage might cast a single target high damage fireball from range but the skill becomes a medium damage fire area skill with a knockback (backdraft) when used on a nearby target.
In this day and age there is no need for cluttered hotbars. You can design meaningful and reactive combat without it. They either result in macro play or hotbar watching.
its not gonna be situtational , its goign to be 4, do you poeple understand how limited 4 is? its less then NW, less then GW2 less then everything and those games skills are severly lacking in the diverstiy department.. use the same skills over and over..
your example of a rouge.. 2 skills from a rouge and then if you wanna "customize" your left with 2 slots left.. thats it, if you like 3 other abilities from the other 40 something classes.. your out of luck.. you can choose only 2 more out of the hundreds..., if your a pure rouge using up 4 slots you have no room for customization,
we dont need a bunch of bars but its insanely limited.. do you guys not understand that? at least 8 class skills and 4 weapon skills would be perfect.. it would be enough room for customizing while still keeping it limited and useful
The problem is they believe that choosing which of 8 abilities is easier than choosing which of 40 to use, but the realty is that setting those 8 abilities up requires a great deal of knowledge, strategy and skill that they are simply discounting.
They are possibly also used to games where each skill is a simple action.
honestly ive said a bunch of times you dont need a lot of hot bars just more variaty in a customization game with freakin 40 classes to choose from...
so why everytime you jump in, you go to the extreme and state poeple who want more skills want 6 hot bars of skills? and clutter up the screen? whats the reasoning behind that when i clearly didn't say that.
i dont care how much skills you use, i dont care if you use just 1 button because your that skilled... its the choice, and stop bringing up 6 hot bars when nobody is asking for that
Picked this at random http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMRRNXegz8s
You can see what he is spamming and clicking...while standing in place as an "action" class. This is what the trinity, tab targeting, and rows and rows of abilities gives for a challenge?