People can play in Landmark for free but if the Devs are in search of a castle and you happen to have one, and the community as a whole likes it, it can make it's way into EQN; and you can gain royalties off that.
EQN itself is also a "sandbox" game in that there are no traditional "quest parks". NPCs will not have "!" or "?" above their heads and one dosen't -have- to talk to NPCs to receive a quest. One -can- talk to them and find out "what's up" in the area but just by entering the area people will be informed of what is happening in that area (i.e. if a rally call is going on).
A traditional Themepark game a player runs up to a quest hub of NPCs, grabs all the quests, completes them, then moves onto the next hub. EQN will not be like that.
That is only the very first step in calling a game a sandbox, and with all you mentioned, it still does not qualify as one. All you are really talking about is how quests are handled. 1 issue in a sea of a million things that need to happen for a game to satisfy this hunger for a real sandbox mmo. After this long, those measly points are simply not even close to enough and only serve to perpetuate the incorrect use of the word.
To be clear, sandbox is an extremely subjective term with no hard criteria.
What is "sandboxy" to one person is "themeparkish" to another.
The key thing to note about EQN is it's horizontal progression, level-less system and it's free-roaming off-the-rails exploration/adventuring.
Call it what you want, but it's going to be the virtual world RPG we've been waiting for. If a person simply equates sandbox to something like EVE, and it has to be like EVE to be a sandbox, they're going to be sad when it comes to EQN.
If you're looking for a great, next gen, virtual living world with free-roaming gameplay, then you'll be happy.
It is trending as close to sandbox as any AAA MMO has in the past decade.
Just to throw this out there...
Clearly there will be a PvP system, they just weren't ready to show it yet. Perhaps they are waiting on round tables to help guide their system. We already have hints with the siege capability with the voxel world being fully destructible. We have seen keeps being destroyed by enemy AI. So saying it isn't there and that EQN is going to be a PvE game is just being ignorant of the clues that were provided.
I will also say, without proof, that I am 100% certain that there will be a housing feature. This is another staple for sandbox games. How will it be presented? No one knows yet.
The world, alone, is enough to make people believe that it's a sandbox. It can be altered temporarily and permanently on the fly by developer and player alike.
The AI is supposed to be the most advanced that we've seen. AI that reacts on a large scale to player traffic. A world that remembers all of your actions and reacts accordingly. The world will be moving and shifting without you even being online. Or at least that's what they claim it will do.
The character building is as close to a sandboxes skill based progression as possible. Most sandboxes don't give XP for killing NPC AI. Neither does EQN. EQN's flexibility to create an unbelievable amount of hybrid classes is something that we don't typically see in themepark games as well. I would classify this as a hybrid system, and sandboxy enough to put it in that category.
We'll see what they say about crafting and harvesting soon enough. I'm willing to bet, and they've hinted at it already, that crafters will be very important. Just as important as loot from mobs.
Other strong points for sandboxes involve a seamless open world, uninstanced, non-layered, non-phased, etc. (Doubt this happens entirely with mega servers becoming the new rage) We don't know about this. Will there be public dungeons? Will there be fluff mini-games and activities? Ocean travel? Vertical air travel? (Hinted floating islands) Will there be auction houses or a more sandbox friendly physical marketplace or bazaar where players have to sell items face to face? Confirmed housing with player vendors? How will the looting system work, FFA PvP and full loot, partial loot? Good/Evil alignment? (hinted) Diety system? (hinted) Territory control? Social activities that are non-combat oriented? (bar brawls, playing instruments, chess, horse racing, fireworks, alcohol drinking, etc etc.)
Ultimately, it has a long way to go. I will say that I am encouraged though. I see no reason why they can't have all of these things and be successful. Well, perhaps they may have to avoid the full loot and partial loot systems that most sandboxes have employed. But other than that, with the direction that they seem to be taking so far, I wouldn't be surprised at all if most of that list made it in.
It is trending as close to sandbox as any AAA MMO has in the past decade.
Just to throw this out there...
Clearly there will be a PvP system, they just weren't ready to show it yet. Perhaps they are waiting on round tables to help guide their system. We already have hints with the siege capability with the voxel world being fully destructible. We have seen keeps being destroyed by enemy AI. So saying it isn't there and that EQN is going to be a PvE game is just being ignorant of the clues that were provided.
I will also say, without proof, that I am 100% certain that there will be a housing feature. This is another staple for sandbox games. How will it be presented? No one knows yet.
The world, alone, is enough to make people believe that it's a sandbox. It can be altered temporarily and permanently on the fly by developer and player alike.
The AI is supposed to be the most advanced that we've seen. AI that reacts on a large scale to player traffic. A world that remembers all of your actions and reacts accordingly. The world will be moving and shifting without you even being online. Or at least that's what they claim it will do.
The character building is as close to a sandboxes skill based progression as possible. Most sandboxes don't give XP for killing NPC AI. Neither does EQN. EQN's flexibility to create an unbelievable amount of hybrid classes is something that we don't typically see in themepark games as well. I would classify this as a hybrid system, and sandboxy enough to put it in that category.
We'll see what they say about crafting and harvesting soon enough. I'm willing to bet, and they've hinted at it already, that crafters will be very important. Just as important as loot from mobs.
Other strong points for sandboxes involve a seamless open world, uninstanced, non-layered, non-phased, etc. (Doubt this happens entirely with mega servers becoming the new rage) We don't know about this. Will there be public dungeons? Will there be fluff mini-games and activities? Ocean travel? Vertical air travel? (Hinted floating islands) Will there be auction houses or a more sandbox friendly physical marketplace or bazaar where players have to sell items face to face? Confirmed housing with player vendors? How will the looting system work, FFA PvP and full loot, partial loot? Good/Evil alignment? (hinted) Diety system? (hinted) Territory control? Social activities that are non-combat oriented? (bar brawls, playing instruments, chess, horse racing, fireworks, alcohol drinking, etc etc.)
Ultimately, it has a long way to go. I will say that I am encouraged though. I see no reason why they can't have all of these things and be successful. Well, perhaps they may have to avoid the full loot and partial loot systems that most sandboxes have employed. But other than that, with the direction that they seem to be taking so far, I wouldn't be surprised at all if most of that list made it in.
We know a little bit about housing. It's going to tie in with Landmark (creating your own assets or buying other people's assets) and it's going to be instanced.
Playerhousing or guild cities does not make a game sandbox.
What does, specifically? I don't want examples of sandbox games, I am asking you what (in your opinion) elements make a game a sandbox game as opposed to a themepark. Because everyone's idea of what "sandbox" and "themepark" mean seems to be different. Suraknar, for example, implies above that if there is no open world PvP that it cannot be a sandbox. I say that's nonsense (Minecraft.)
For me, the difference lies in whether the minute-to-minute gameplay is linear. If I'm just going through scripted content, even if there are branches and side quests and timewasting to be done, that's themepark. When I go off the rails and do stuff the devs didn't intend, or where there is emergent content, that's sandbox. Many games are mixtures of both, and almost all MMORPGs have some level of sandbox to them... but that's been decreasing in recent years even in extant games. EQNext, it seems to me, is trying to reverse that trend, but of course we don't know how successful it will be at that, and we lack a lot of information in general.
However, we do know that there will be some scripted content - quests, dungeons, etc - in EQNext. So if that flatly disqualifies it as a sandbox in your book, then okay. But at the same time Storybricks AI, assuming it works, is going to add a huge emergent sandbox element. The Permanent Change thing (again if it works) will have a similar effect.
So I see it as an unanswerable question right now, but for the moment I am wiling to take SOE at their word and assume EQN will be sort of sandboxy. The info we have at the moment seems to me to be compatible with that.
People are often too literal with the term 'sandbox'.
Player housing, in itself, is not 'sandbox'.
However, it is a feature that is largely one of the main staples in ALL sandbox titles that have ever been made in the MMO space. This fact alone makes it considered a sandbox feature.
Without the race for xp .. It opens up how you wish to play more. Allowing you to just go out and explore and adventure with friends without worrying about out leveling them or leaving them behind. You are going to be able to just lose yourself I the world and the story if that's what you like.
This sounds alot like EQ1 without the levels. So much better than having to be force thru a story or racing thru one.
If the housing is instanced as you say, then it is a large step away from what I'd consider sandbox. I'm willing to bet it has to do with their server architecture, since I strongly assume they will have mega server tech. I'll reserve judgement until I know exactly how it will be implemented. Are they going to be openly placed in the world, but players will be divided up in world instanced based on player load? Will you have to jump between instances to get to your house, or will you be phased or layered in when you enter a certain area in which you have a placed home? Will it be instanced completely, in an area that isn't actually in the game world itself, like the systems in DAoC or even Rift? Are player vendors even possible in their system? Can friends freely visit your house? More importantly, will strangers be able to pass by and look at what you built?
Rift style dimensions would really disappoint me. It is a complete cop out of a system. If EQN wants to back up that claim of making the biggest sandbox MMO ever, then this has to be handled correctly.
When I think of Sandbox, I think of games like EQ1 and Shadowbane. For example, EQ1 used to start out like this:
Your some naked character in a town of the race/class you created with a crap sword and a note to see your class trainer. You find your class trainer (with no map or arrows) and he says "welcome aboard young warrior, here's your useless noob tunic...good luck" and you get a few faction bonuses for completing the hand in the note quest. Then....its up to you.
There isn't a hub of quests waiting outside town to tell you to kill rats and skeletons. You can look at the monster to tell how they "con" to see if you are high enough to take them. So its up to you to figure out where you go to level, where your items are, what factions you look out for. There are a lot of different places in the game you can go, and monsters you can kill.
In the case of Classic EQ there aren't many quests or items. You either randomly talk to people all over towns and in the world seeing if they had something to say, hear about quests from a friend, or look them up online (not as easy to do in 1999-2001). In those days, you could easily find a quest or item that few other people knew about. By constantly changing the world and the way quests and items are delivered, EQN is trying to capture some of that experience, which I honestly thought was dead forever.
Shadowbane is a better example of the more PvP based sandbox. Which is more player built things to fight over, and little to no dungeons, powerful npcs, and vertical progression. It is basically a map to fight over. It is usually really fun for awhile and gets old IMO, without the PvE element.
It is trending as close to sandbox as any AAA MMO has in the past decade.
Just to throw this out there...
Clearly there will be a PvP system, they just weren't ready to show it yet. Perhaps they are waiting on round tables to help guide their system. We already have hints with the siege capability with the voxel world being fully destructible. We have seen keeps being destroyed by enemy AI. So saying it isn't there and that EQN is going to be a PvE game is just being ignorant of the clues that were provided.
I will also say, without proof, that I am 100% certain that there will be a housing feature. This is another staple for sandbox games. How will it be presented? No one knows yet.
The world, alone, is enough to make people believe that it's a sandbox. It can be altered temporarily and permanently on the fly by developer and player alike.
The AI is supposed to be the most advanced that we've seen. AI that reacts on a large scale to player traffic. A world that remembers all of your actions and reacts accordingly. The world will be moving and shifting without you even being online. Or at least that's what they claim it will do.
The character building is as close to a sandboxes skill based progression as possible. Most sandboxes don't give XP for killing NPC AI. Neither does EQN. EQN's flexibility to create an unbelievable amount of hybrid classes is something that we don't typically see in themepark games as well. I would classify this as a hybrid system, and sandboxy enough to put it in that category.
We'll see what they say about crafting and harvesting soon enough. I'm willing to bet, and they've hinted at it already, that crafters will be very important. Just as important as loot from mobs.
Other strong points for sandboxes involve a seamless open world, uninstanced, non-layered, non-phased, etc. (Doubt this happens entirely with mega servers becoming the new rage) We don't know about this. Will there be public dungeons? Will there be fluff mini-games and activities? Ocean travel? Vertical air travel? (Hinted floating islands) Will there be auction houses or a more sandbox friendly physical marketplace or bazaar where players have to sell items face to face? Confirmed housing with player vendors? How will the looting system work, FFA PvP and full loot, partial loot? Good/Evil alignment? (hinted) Diety system? (hinted) Territory control? Social activities that are non-combat oriented? (bar brawls, playing instruments, chess, horse racing, fireworks, alcohol drinking, etc etc.)
Ultimately, it has a long way to go. I will say that I am encouraged though. I see no reason why they can't have all of these things and be successful. Well, perhaps they may have to avoid the full loot and partial loot systems that most sandboxes have employed. But other than that, with the direction that they seem to be taking so far, I wouldn't be surprised at all if most of that list made it in.
We know a little bit about housing. It's going to tie in with Landmark (creating your own assets or buying other people's assets) and it's going to be instanced.
Hmm, where did you hear it's going to be instanced?
You create assets in Landmark and if they are approved by SOE they can appear on the market. In EQN you buy the asset as a blueprint. Then after finding a plot you use the blueprint with its resource cost to build the structure.
SoE said at SoELive that there will be designated areas for player housing. If that area runs out of space they will create more.
Nowhere did I hear any mentioning of instancing in any shape or form.
Difference between themepark and a sandbox, guidance and staticness, versus freedom.
In a themepark you are required to go in a pre-determined way the developers have thought out for you. Typically they want you to go from quest hub to quest hub. This allows them to show you each part in their world, bit by bit. As a visitor you can not skip much of it (you can't go to the highest level zones right zones). Think of it as a funfair, or a zoo, where all the attractions are in one straight line. You got to see everything!
In a sandbox there is no such guidance, you are free to go wherever you want.
Currently the term sandbox seems to be the best thing in an MMO. Who doesn't want freedom? But guidance can also be a very convenient thing. Many people would like a guide, so they don't miss anything. And the guide can tell them things about the different animals in the cages as you walk on.
I think this is the key element of themepark versus sandbox.
Originally posted by Gallus85We know a little bit about housing. It's going to tie in with Landmark (creating your own assets or buying other people's assets) and it's going to be instanced.
A citation for the instanced part would be helpful, because I have the impression that it will not be instanced. There's talk of acquiring plots and building what you want on then in EQN, not just in EQNL, although I'd expect tighter restrictions in EQN.
One of the reasons I hate this forum is that the definition of sandbox is so narrow with many posters. Even many games recognized as sandbox don't qualify for the title based on their criteria. So it's like talking to a stone on the matter. Straw men and games that simply have never existed are posited as examples. On top of that, there may be a standard (EVE), but realize that most things of this nature are never black and white. It's similar to saying whether a person is "evil" or "good".
What I took away from one poster above was literally "if there are public quests (rallying calls), then it is a themepark". And that's patently absurd. SWG pre-NGE is pretty much the definitive sandbox game (there are others), and there were public quests, general objectives, which you could take part in. I ran quests for extra credits and skill points back in the day on my BH, so they existed (kill 100 sandpeople).
So, I'll list out the features announced which (to me) define it as "sandbox". This is not to say there are not themepark methodologies in play. A true sandbox, 100%, is said not to exist. I disagree. Try Wurms Online. It's a horrible game, because there is literally no guidance past the start of the game, and you can do aaaaannnytthiinnnng you want. Which means most players quit playing very rapidly, because there is NOTHING to do. 157 skills to level, true "open world" with no real purpose, no "adventures", just your own personal goals and that's it. And that's the sandbox they want to play by their words.
The problem is, in theory it sounds nice, but when it was made, it is not, in actual practice, fun to play. It is not adventurous, it is not heroic, and in being able to have every effect possible upon the world, you actually have no impact on the world. Very 1984 in that regard. Anything you make will be unmade if you leave the game for a month.
Without further ado, here's the list:
Freeform character development in a level-less system. This is not required for a sandbox, but it does help with the feeling of "this is my unique snowflake character".
Random areas are procedurally generated through events which may not exist after that character leaves (the underground described as created during a combat sequence).
Rallying calls, where there are multiple avenues to advance a general "we're building a town here" goal. The examples (not be-all end-all) I took away from the announcement were: Crafters able to fortify the town, adventurers able to fight threats, trading routes that could be established, and multiple methods of handling threats generated via player actions (the example was quarrying too deeply and opening a "Mines of Moria" type event). These events don't occur if players don't take certain actions. Different consequences result.
Creature AI reacting to players incursions. The event you run into may have been generated by another player's (or successive generation of players') actions within the environment.
Gameworld is different from server to server, based upon actions taken by the players on that server.
The general experience being aimed for is that the landscape, spawns, events will not be repeated if you level another character on that server or another server.
The general developer statement of "players actions have consequence on the gameworld", which was only talked about in broad-stroke terms.
Now, to be fair, none of this was visible during the announcement. It was all mock-ups and hype at this point. I for one have been disappointed with the implementation of many features in different MMOs, so I subscribe to caveat emptor.
However, none of the recent development teams have even discussed such a lofty goal. Not to the degree the developers seem committed to in this game. Are there themepark elements? Of course. In a game attempting to get a broad public audience and not the minority (as in Wurms Online), you would have to do some handholding at points in order to give the players direction or purpose. I'm not sure I even qualify that as themepark so much as "new-player friendly actions".
What we all thought was that EQN was the only game that was releated to SOE reveal and they sead it would be the greatest sandbox ever made.
I think It's more complex than that, now with the landmark project which is a sandbox minecraft game a stand alone game or a sidegame if you could call it that to EQN.
Was the landmark project the sandbox part and EQN the sandpark or freepark part?
I'm not sure really, I'm confused.
We don't know for sure until more information is released about EQN.
There are all kind of retarded speculations floating around but this is the ultimate truth at the moment and it will stay like that for a long time even tho people will make up all kind of things inside their fairytale poluted minds.
Besides, even when it eventualy gets released, there will be people claiming it's sandbox, even if it will just turn out to be some new variation of WoW+GW2 with the twist of terraforming.
so far there is zero hand holding in this game and also they already said that the stuff you build can be put down on a new continent but not on the continent of norath. To me this game is 100% a sandbox so far.
What we all thought was that EQN was the only game that was releated to SOE reveal and they sead it would be the greatest sandbox ever made.
I think It's more complex than that, now with the landmark project which is a sandbox minecraft game a stand alone game or a sidegame if you could call it that to EQN.
Was the landmark project the sandbox part and EQN the sandpark or freepark part?
I'm not sure really, I'm confused.
I bet a doughnut it is theme park and I will throw in another doughnut and bet it feels and plays like World of Warcraft.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
So the simple fact that EQ Landmark exists equates to EQNext being a sandbox game (sandbox according to SOE)? Will EQ Landmark only be available for a set timeframe? Once all the player made content has been capped and approved for the actual game, what happens to the Landmark builder?
I have watched most if not all of the interviews and panels regarding EQ Next and the world building element. It all leads me to believe that EQ Next has two parts and that building and environment creation may not be included in the final EQ Next game.
What we all thought was that EQN was the only game that was releated to SOE reveal and they sead it would be the greatest sandbox ever made.
I think It's more complex than that, now with the landmark project which is a sandbox minecraft game a stand alone game or a sidegame if you could call it that to EQN.
Was the landmark project the sandbox part and EQN the sandpark or freepark part?
I'm not sure really, I'm confused.
I bet a doughnut it is theme park and I will throw in another doughnut and bet it feels and plays like World of Warcraft.
Yeah.. i see me leveling up through linears quests all the way. Do the exact same instances all the time to level up throw gears, And i see me doing instanced Raids nonstop to progress further in a linear behavoir. Absolutely it sound exactly like what we have heard from EQN.
Yes.. this was sarcastic. If anything EQN is the complete opposite of WoW.
- open seamless world vs. heavily instanced
- horizontal progression and world vs. linear progression and linear world divded into level zones
- multiclassing to choose whatever you want to play vs. fixed class with a fixed role
- dynamic mob behavoir and wandering mobs vs. static mob spawn locations
- destructable(even if limited in time and place) and buildable world vs. static world
The one a sandbox, the other a themepark. It really can't be any different.
So the simple fact that EQ Landmark exists equates to EQNext being a sandbox game (sandbox according to SOE)? Will EQ Landmark only be available for a set timeframe? Once all the player made content has been capped and approved for the actual game, what happens to the Landmark builder?
I have watched most if not all of the interviews and panels regarding EQ Next and the world building element. It all leads me to believe that EQ Next has two parts and that building and environment creation may not be included in the final EQ Next game.
Questions with no confirmed answers.
No. they already have confirmed that you can build in EQN. You will be just more limited. You have to earn/get first of all a land, where you can build. And your buildings will have to be lore conform. It may be that you can't use all those tools from landmark, and that you have to use blueprints.. but that is more of a speculation.
We seem to have several PHD experts on the subject here on these boards. I welcome them to create a bullet list of every game feature that they feel falls under "themepark", then another listing the mechanics of a "sandbox" game.
One of the defining differences is that indeed "Themepark" games are centered around questing hubs. Ohh you're level 15, you quest out of this hub, now you're 18, quest out of this hub. "Sandbox" on the other hand dose not follow such a liner, hand-holding, take on gameplay. A game can have elements of both, of course... in addition to dozens of other elements.
It boils down to, if Sony wants to call it a Sandbox game, and all evidence points that way, then it is indeed one. There has been extremely little evidence showing that it is a Themepark game.
Though some games have sandbox elements, at their core they are still fundumentally a themepark game. Very few mmos are true sandbox games, count them on only a few fingers; out of the hundreds of standard park games.
Some people on these boards just need to calm down a bit. A lot of information is unknown and to debate unknown information is just silly.
Ill bite. I have only one real requirement for sandbox game, At no point through the inherent design of the game do i want to feel like im being pushed or guided to play a certain way. When combat is the focus because of game mechanics, it is not a true sandbox. same could be said for any element in-game. That being said, i want options. Those options include themepark oriented material. I have no problem with it. But if i ever hear the game whisper in my ear that thats what i need to be doing to "progress" my character, its lost a large part of its sandbox for me. A true mmo should be able to make everyone happy. If they cant do that, they aren't thinking big enough.
Originally posted by tawess
Well with landmark it is at least a sandbox... the game part.. who knows.
I think it will be something in between. Not a full-blown do what ever you like without any guidance or semblance of story sandbox.. But i think it will be less linear then say WoW. Maybe something closer to SWG.
Nothing about EQN reminds of SWG:pre NGE sadly. if anything it reminds of me of SWG:NGE.
If that's the case then the game is fucked before its launch.
I definetly understand and respect your stance and opinion. Little to nothing was said about PvP or Crafting in any of the panels, which will certainty move the needle one way or another once we learn more. After watching all the panels myself it became pretty clear we are, minimally, a year away from the main title launch. A lot of time for anything to change, from mechanics, elements, reasoning, perception, understanding and opinions. People were tossed a lot of information over the past few days and are trying to digest it, though it's difficult since large, and critical, pieces of information are missing like a void in space. Perhaps it will be as bad as people are speculating, who knows, it's anyones guess at this point. God knows the number of mmos that launched after 2005, the promises made, and the flops that have happened. heh.
You have shown nothing but the upmost respect for my opinion so I will return the favor. I hope you find the game you're looking for one day. Myself, I'll stick around till least Landmark launches before making a final choice.
~ Crag
Cragfire, the feeling is mutual.
You are right many things may and will change. We can only hope for something that we can both enjoy in the end and share in the same Virtual world But if not it is more than fine to have different games which appeal to different styles too. Sometimes we just can't have it all.
regards,
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
However, none of the recent development teams have even discussed such a lofty goal. Not to the degree the developers seem committed to in this game. Are there themepark elements? Of course. In a game attempting to get a broad public audience and not the minority (as in Wurms Online), you would have to do some handholding at points in order to give the players direction or purpose. I'm not sure I even qualify that as themepark so much as "new-player friendly actions".
I just wanted to say, fantastic post Lanessar.
I'd quote your entire post but to save space I'll just quote the final paragraph.
Im hoping that EQN is a lot like SWG was. Where crafting your way through the game is a viable option. Where crafting was where your gear came from, but you needed some drops for some awsome items. Where I could build a house, and sell my wares out of it. Where others could combat their way through the game.
From what I saw in the EQN videos, I have hope that it will be a lot like SWG. I didn't see anything that led me to believe it would not.
It looks/seems like they are heading in the sandbox direction. It sure does NOT seem like they are attempting to make a themepark game.
Originally posted by bebopdrums Nothing about EQN reminds of SWG:pre NGE sadly. if anything it reminds of me of SWG:NGE.
Really? Because the EQN multiclassing arrangement sounds to me very, very similar to pre-NGE SWG professions. Housing will be robust and open-world. And we know nothing at all yet about crafting, which was a cornerstone of old SWG. So what elements exactly are suggesting this to you?
Comments
To be clear, sandbox is an extremely subjective term with no hard criteria.
What is "sandboxy" to one person is "themeparkish" to another.
The key thing to note about EQN is it's horizontal progression, level-less system and it's free-roaming off-the-rails exploration/adventuring.
Call it what you want, but it's going to be the virtual world RPG we've been waiting for. If a person simply equates sandbox to something like EVE, and it has to be like EVE to be a sandbox, they're going to be sad when it comes to EQN.
If you're looking for a great, next gen, virtual living world with free-roaming gameplay, then you'll be happy.
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It is trending as close to sandbox as any AAA MMO has in the past decade.
Just to throw this out there...
Clearly there will be a PvP system, they just weren't ready to show it yet. Perhaps they are waiting on round tables to help guide their system. We already have hints with the siege capability with the voxel world being fully destructible. We have seen keeps being destroyed by enemy AI. So saying it isn't there and that EQN is going to be a PvE game is just being ignorant of the clues that were provided.
I will also say, without proof, that I am 100% certain that there will be a housing feature. This is another staple for sandbox games. How will it be presented? No one knows yet.
The world, alone, is enough to make people believe that it's a sandbox. It can be altered temporarily and permanently on the fly by developer and player alike.
The AI is supposed to be the most advanced that we've seen. AI that reacts on a large scale to player traffic. A world that remembers all of your actions and reacts accordingly. The world will be moving and shifting without you even being online. Or at least that's what they claim it will do.
The character building is as close to a sandboxes skill based progression as possible. Most sandboxes don't give XP for killing NPC AI. Neither does EQN. EQN's flexibility to create an unbelievable amount of hybrid classes is something that we don't typically see in themepark games as well. I would classify this as a hybrid system, and sandboxy enough to put it in that category.
We'll see what they say about crafting and harvesting soon enough. I'm willing to bet, and they've hinted at it already, that crafters will be very important. Just as important as loot from mobs.
Other strong points for sandboxes involve a seamless open world, uninstanced, non-layered, non-phased, etc. (Doubt this happens entirely with mega servers becoming the new rage) We don't know about this. Will there be public dungeons? Will there be fluff mini-games and activities? Ocean travel? Vertical air travel? (Hinted floating islands) Will there be auction houses or a more sandbox friendly physical marketplace or bazaar where players have to sell items face to face? Confirmed housing with player vendors? How will the looting system work, FFA PvP and full loot, partial loot? Good/Evil alignment? (hinted) Diety system? (hinted) Territory control? Social activities that are non-combat oriented? (bar brawls, playing instruments, chess, horse racing, fireworks, alcohol drinking, etc etc.)
Ultimately, it has a long way to go. I will say that I am encouraged though. I see no reason why they can't have all of these things and be successful. Well, perhaps they may have to avoid the full loot and partial loot systems that most sandboxes have employed. But other than that, with the direction that they seem to be taking so far, I wouldn't be surprised at all if most of that list made it in.
We know a little bit about housing. It's going to tie in with Landmark (creating your own assets or buying other people's assets) and it's going to be instanced.
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People are often too literal with the term 'sandbox'.
Player housing, in itself, is not 'sandbox'.
However, it is a feature that is largely one of the main staples in ALL sandbox titles that have ever been made in the MMO space. This fact alone makes it considered a sandbox feature.
This cannot be argued.
Without the race for xp .. It opens up how you wish to play more. Allowing you to just go out and explore and adventure with friends without worrying about out leveling them or leaving them behind. You are going to be able to just lose yourself I the world and the story if that's what you like.
This sounds alot like EQ1 without the levels. So much better than having to be force thru a story or racing thru one.
If the housing is instanced as you say, then it is a large step away from what I'd consider sandbox. I'm willing to bet it has to do with their server architecture, since I strongly assume they will have mega server tech. I'll reserve judgement until I know exactly how it will be implemented. Are they going to be openly placed in the world, but players will be divided up in world instanced based on player load? Will you have to jump between instances to get to your house, or will you be phased or layered in when you enter a certain area in which you have a placed home? Will it be instanced completely, in an area that isn't actually in the game world itself, like the systems in DAoC or even Rift? Are player vendors even possible in their system? Can friends freely visit your house? More importantly, will strangers be able to pass by and look at what you built?
Rift style dimensions would really disappoint me. It is a complete cop out of a system. If EQN wants to back up that claim of making the biggest sandbox MMO ever, then this has to be handled correctly.
When I think of Sandbox, I think of games like EQ1 and Shadowbane. For example, EQ1 used to start out like this:
Your some naked character in a town of the race/class you created with a crap sword and a note to see your class trainer. You find your class trainer (with no map or arrows) and he says "welcome aboard young warrior, here's your useless noob tunic...good luck" and you get a few faction bonuses for completing the hand in the note quest. Then....its up to you.
There isn't a hub of quests waiting outside town to tell you to kill rats and skeletons. You can look at the monster to tell how they "con" to see if you are high enough to take them. So its up to you to figure out where you go to level, where your items are, what factions you look out for. There are a lot of different places in the game you can go, and monsters you can kill.
In the case of Classic EQ there aren't many quests or items. You either randomly talk to people all over towns and in the world seeing if they had something to say, hear about quests from a friend, or look them up online (not as easy to do in 1999-2001). In those days, you could easily find a quest or item that few other people knew about. By constantly changing the world and the way quests and items are delivered, EQN is trying to capture some of that experience, which I honestly thought was dead forever.
Shadowbane is a better example of the more PvP based sandbox. Which is more player built things to fight over, and little to no dungeons, powerful npcs, and vertical progression. It is basically a map to fight over. It is usually really fun for awhile and gets old IMO, without the PvE element.
Hmm, where did you hear it's going to be instanced?
You create assets in Landmark and if they are approved by SOE they can appear on the market. In EQN you buy the asset as a blueprint. Then after finding a plot you use the blueprint with its resource cost to build the structure.
SoE said at SoELive that there will be designated areas for player housing. If that area runs out of space they will create more.
Nowhere did I hear any mentioning of instancing in any shape or form.
http://www.eqnexus.com/forums/threads/player-housing-and-construction.511/
Difference between themepark and a sandbox, guidance and staticness, versus freedom.
In a themepark you are required to go in a pre-determined way the developers have thought out for you. Typically they want you to go from quest hub to quest hub. This allows them to show you each part in their world, bit by bit. As a visitor you can not skip much of it (you can't go to the highest level zones right zones). Think of it as a funfair, or a zoo, where all the attractions are in one straight line. You got to see everything!
In a sandbox there is no such guidance, you are free to go wherever you want.
Currently the term sandbox seems to be the best thing in an MMO. Who doesn't want freedom? But guidance can also be a very convenient thing. Many people would like a guide, so they don't miss anything. And the guide can tell them things about the different animals in the cages as you walk on.
I think this is the key element of themepark versus sandbox.
A citation for the instanced part would be helpful, because I have the impression that it will not be instanced. There's talk of acquiring plots and building what you want on then in EQN, not just in EQNL, although I'd expect tighter restrictions in EQN.
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One of the reasons I hate this forum is that the definition of sandbox is so narrow with many posters. Even many games recognized as sandbox don't qualify for the title based on their criteria. So it's like talking to a stone on the matter. Straw men and games that simply have never existed are posited as examples. On top of that, there may be a standard (EVE), but realize that most things of this nature are never black and white. It's similar to saying whether a person is "evil" or "good".
What I took away from one poster above was literally "if there are public quests (rallying calls), then it is a themepark". And that's patently absurd. SWG pre-NGE is pretty much the definitive sandbox game (there are others), and there were public quests, general objectives, which you could take part in. I ran quests for extra credits and skill points back in the day on my BH, so they existed (kill 100 sandpeople).
So, I'll list out the features announced which (to me) define it as "sandbox". This is not to say there are not themepark methodologies in play. A true sandbox, 100%, is said not to exist. I disagree. Try Wurms Online. It's a horrible game, because there is literally no guidance past the start of the game, and you can do aaaaannnytthiinnnng you want. Which means most players quit playing very rapidly, because there is NOTHING to do. 157 skills to level, true "open world" with no real purpose, no "adventures", just your own personal goals and that's it. And that's the sandbox they want to play by their words.
The problem is, in theory it sounds nice, but when it was made, it is not, in actual practice, fun to play. It is not adventurous, it is not heroic, and in being able to have every effect possible upon the world, you actually have no impact on the world. Very 1984 in that regard. Anything you make will be unmade if you leave the game for a month.
Without further ado, here's the list:
There are all kind of retarded speculations floating around but this is the ultimate truth at the moment and it will stay like that for a long time even tho people will make up all kind of things inside their fairytale poluted minds.
Besides, even when it eventualy gets released, there will be people claiming it's sandbox, even if it will just turn out to be some new variation of WoW+GW2 with the twist of terraforming.
I bet a doughnut it is theme park and I will throw in another doughnut and bet it feels and plays like World of Warcraft.
So the simple fact that EQ Landmark exists equates to EQNext being a sandbox game (sandbox according to SOE)? Will EQ Landmark only be available for a set timeframe? Once all the player made content has been capped and approved for the actual game, what happens to the Landmark builder?
I have watched most if not all of the interviews and panels regarding EQ Next and the world building element. It all leads me to believe that EQ Next has two parts and that building and environment creation may not be included in the final EQ Next game.
Questions with no confirmed answers.
Yeah.. i see me leveling up through linears quests all the way. Do the exact same instances all the time to level up throw gears, And i see me doing instanced Raids nonstop to progress further in a linear behavoir. Absolutely it sound exactly like what we have heard from EQN.
Yes.. this was sarcastic. If anything EQN is the complete opposite of WoW.
- open seamless world vs. heavily instanced
- horizontal progression and world vs. linear progression and linear world divded into level zones
- multiclassing to choose whatever you want to play vs. fixed class with a fixed role
- dynamic mob behavoir and wandering mobs vs. static mob spawn locations
- destructable(even if limited in time and place) and buildable world vs. static world
The one a sandbox, the other a themepark. It really can't be any different.
No. they already have confirmed that you can build in EQN. You will be just more limited. You have to earn/get first of all a land, where you can build. And your buildings will have to be lore conform. It may be that you can't use all those tools from landmark, and that you have to use blueprints.. but that is more of a speculation.
If that's the case then the game is fucked before its launch.
Cragfire, the feeling is mutual.
You are right many things may and will change. We can only hope for something that we can both enjoy in the end and share in the same Virtual world
But if not it is more than fine to have different games which appeal to different styles too. Sometimes we just can't have it all.
regards,
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I just wanted to say, fantastic post Lanessar.
I'd quote your entire post but to save space I'll just quote the final paragraph.
SWG and EQ were my favorite mmo's, far and away.
Im hoping that EQN is a lot like SWG was. Where crafting your way through the game is a viable option. Where crafting was where your gear came from, but you needed some drops for some awsome items. Where I could build a house, and sell my wares out of it. Where others could combat their way through the game.
From what I saw in the EQN videos, I have hope that it will be a lot like SWG. I didn't see anything that led me to believe it would not.
It looks/seems like they are heading in the sandbox direction. It sure does NOT seem like they are attempting to make a themepark game.
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