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"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is

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  • NomadMorlockNomadMorlock N/A, VAPosts: 593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    Ignoring human nature will fail or at least only attract a small following. If you throw 1000 people onto a desert island only a hand full will take initiative an lead, a few less will want to help coordinate and the rest of the mass will be happy to follow. This behavior runs thru everything in life including games and is what the holy trinity mirrors.

     

    Making it so "everyone" can do "everything" just goes against human nature and will only attract a small population. It doesn't even fit realistically. Imagine if I was that boss and I had five people attacking me what would I do? I would kill the high threat to my life first and then move on. I wouldn't stop or randomly change my target for no reason.

     

    Under the trinity system the boss or mobs attacking the "highest threat" to their life (albeit a mechanic) at least makes sense in the real world. I've said it before that tanks threat mechanic should be pure dps to make it even more realistic i.e tanks do the highest damage hence attract the most attention as that are the highest threat ot life. As a bonus would create more tanks.

    I could live with that reasoning..  The man stabbing me the most that is close to me gets MY attention..  His buddy might be throwing rocks at me, but in the heat of a fight, that man with the knife is my primary focus.. Range DPS would carry less threat, and other melee dps like a rogue has to select his attack moments.. Healers carry on as usual, no change..  And I really get tired hearing smart AI's.. Smart AI's should only apply to intelligent humanoids, not a pack of wolves or a bear.. I personally would like to see the trinity (role system) expanded to include  more CC, better buffing and debuffing.. and utility support

    Expand roles - Don't walk away from them!

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

     

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

     

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    This mmo proves your statement wrong and its a class-less system.

  • Whiskey_SamWhiskey_Sam Lynchburg, VAPosts: 294Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Another big "if" from the EQN team - promising "wait and see, WE'LL be the ones to finally get it right, we promise!"

    I hope they do.

    It'd be AMAZING if they do. It really would change everything.

    But after 14+ years in this genre, you can't get upset at people like me for being pessimistic and assuming they are just blowing smoke.

     

    We're of the same mindset.  Show don't tell.  Developers overpromise and underdeliver all the time.  Best to wait for them to have something tangible before hyperventilating over marketing.

    ___________________________
    Have flask; will travel.

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    Where did they say you...

    1. have to dabble in everything

    2. can't specialize into specific roles (classes)

    3. can't still have the trinity in some fashion

    If AI is smart enough to not fall for the old taunt spam, no the trinity of old isn't going to work as the dragon will just walk on over to the healers and eat them. So healers can't just hide in the corner staring at health bars the whole fight.

    But there is nothing stopping a Warrior (tank) from shield bashing a dragon in the ankle and slowing him down and or making him turn around, not because he "taunted" but because he hindered his movement and is now angry!

    Healer was first priority, but if the warrior is keeping him from the healer,  the warrior is first priority again and has given the healer time to get out of the way. But don't forget those magi in the corner blasting away, dragon has to get them too!

    Tactics are still needed. "Trinity" is just a name slapped onto a set of roles. The old way is very unrealistic and is a sign of how crappy AI was/is.

    If they clearly said "Trinity is Dead!" "You can't have a healer, dps, tank, cc in the same group" "A whole bunch of DPS is much better then a mix of various roles" I will stand corrected. But so far they have shown very very little about the classes, combat, and AI. To jump to any conclusion one way or the other and have a fit is not very smart.

  • r0guyr0guy ParisPosts: 115Member
    Originally posted by wsmar
    Originally posted by r0guy

     

    First paragraph:

    Semantics. Why ask what's different about the AI if you define it as non-existant in any game then? What was the point of your question? I thought you were asking how the way the NPCs are programmed changed the game, I answered. They act more like real creatures/people now.

     

    Moving on...

     

    Second paragraph:

    You said PVP was dependent on the trinity, I said it wasn't, and I gave an explanation. If you meant that pvp is more fun with the trinity, that's your opinion, I respect it and I have nothing to say to that.

    I have never played GW2, because i thought it looked terrible and chaotic from the videos i saw of it and I also love playing healers and when I heard that it didn't have any, I didn't bother. But just because another game was badly designed doesn't mean that the concept doesn't work, doesn't mean that it can in the future or that it hasn't worked somewhere else before.

    I was questioning why they considered it "primitive" or in other words any different from what they are doing now. You answered my question, and I responded by saying that isn't AI. The point I was making is that they are saying it is "primitive" because it was used in older games or games that came before it. I think at this point based on the statements you made, that validated what I was saying. Nothing drastic has actually happened. It is the same old same old. If you want to call it an argument of semantics be my guest, even though that is definitely debateable, I was merely wondering what differentiated it from its "primitive" counterparts. Obviously not very much in the artificial intelligence department. It should be called game design.

     Well if you want to say that there's not much difference when a mob just stands still on it's spawn and mob that is unpredictable, moves around, actually comes to ambush you and changes it's behaviour when you attack/kill them giving you a possibility to have an impact on the world.... That's up to you i guess. They did not say it was primitive because it was used in older games, the reasoning was that it's "stupid" (their word, not mine), repetitive and immersion breaking. It's a "no true scotsman" to say "since neither have real AI, like Skynet in Terminator, there's no difference". Raid monsters following a strategy that will obviously get them killed, looks stupid, and if I'm a healer for example, the raid monster will never ever ever go for me (at least in WoW, with the exceptions of gimmick encounters like Little red riding hood in karazan) and that's boring and predictable. As sure as enemies in old FPS' used to not take cover/retreat/be able to throw back grenades compared to now, It may not be true AI, but thank god for technology.

    In order for the PvP battlegrounds to work as intended in the games you mentioned, having the trinity present works wonders. Obviously, that isn't always the case, the trinity isn't always present. However, it does change the experience.Yeah it does, I still don't see why a trinity group of 1 dps+1tank+1healer should be forced to be so much better than any other setup. What is the more complex game? The one where everyone plays a trinity or the one where you can build, discover and learn new setups? You havn't addressed my MOBA example, it's a system where everyone gets what they want.  It didn't make the battles as long for instance because when you died, you respawned, instead of getting rezzed or healed. So battles would become more fragmented, which can clearly be seen often in GW2. You are right, as I stated earlier, the trinity doesn't have to be present for you to be able to play in a battleground. Not only that, but when there isn't any kind of class synergy, something that the holy trinity brings to the table, people tend to not work in a group. This is completely false, you find teamwork in all genres of games that don't force people into roles, from first person shooters, RTS to real life sports. MLG championships have quite a few. People solo more, even in PvP battlegrounds. It is not always the most intelligent choice to stick with your allies because they can't do that much for you in the sense of heals or buffs. It is up to you to decide whether that works or not. In my opinion it doesn't but that's just me. This can be applied to games that do have the holy trinity as well. When a healer or a dps or a tank isn't present in a battleground the balance is gone, and relying on oneself becomes more important. It still functions, but that doesn't mean it works as intended. Maybe it is intended, maybe the situation you've described doesn't change at all. If there's no healer, tanks still tank, dps still dps. They'll need to revise their strategy but if you split up, you still have just as much chance to get outnumbered and killed. What has disappeared is the forced dependence on specific classes. Not because the player is good, not because it's part of your strategy, not because he's a friend and I want to play with him, it's because I've been forced too. Teamwork is about interacting with others and I can't remember the last time I actually interacted with a tank, healer or DPS in a PVE dungeon.

     

    I could even go on about WAR's RvR and why it wouldn't have worked if the holy trinity wasn't there. That isn't really open world PvP because you can only PvP within the boundaries of the PvP area.

     

    As I said earlier, I'm drawing from the fact that GW2 didn't have the trinity as well as roleless classes. I don't know what EQN will be like, for all I know they will have dedicated healers, but I don't. However, I do know that there hasn't been a game without the holy trinity that has had successful battlegrounds where balance is a key issue. DOTA 2, LoL (not MMOs, but you'd have to argue why it doesn't apply), WoW arenas and according to some GW1 didn't require it either. And they're the most successful games that apply.

     

  • camphor1camphor1 waterford, MIPosts: 19Member

    But there is nothing stopping a Warrior (tank) from shield bashing a dragon in the ankle and slowing him down and or making him turn around, not because he "taunted" but because he hindered his movement and is now angry!

    2 things here

    1. your assuming the dragon has no ranged attack

    2. if it doesent it obviously can be snared in this scenario wouldent it be much much easier for that warrior and everyone else in the group to switch to wizard class snare it and kite it around until dead instead of having to worry about someone being hit

    ps. everyone always forgets ranged attacks and everyone always forget that stunlocking a mob permenently isnt fun combat

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Well, I won't be sorry to seen the magic "Neener neener, you gotta fight me and only me no matter what, hyper-intelligent space alien, cause I insulted your mama! Do you even have one of those? Here's your lawful stupid pills Nyah nyah nyah."

    Most potent form of mind-control in the universe, who says Tanks aren't magical?

    Shame we have to lose Tanks to get rid of that. Tanks were (usually) pretty likeable fellows.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    Every game has that - get over it.
     

    EQ has no zerg whatsoever, none, and the reason is the trinity system and the dependency and controlled and strategic combat it creates.

    EQ couldnt have a zerg based on the limitations of combat.  Mobs actually took time to burn and kill.  All of them.  The trinity is not a good reason.

    image
  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

     

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    Lets separate roles from trinity because they are different.  You can play a role such as a warrior but not have a trinity.  Everyone is presenting the same argument that the trinity is required which does not but limit what you imagine to be possible.

    I don't want to be limited and want to see a game without the trinity.  Those who love the trinity (I do) but cant get over not using it should just stop following this game because its not going to be there.

    Completely agree with the Op and what I have been saying since Aug 2.  The AI is going to change the game simply because we have never played anything like it.  If it 'works' or is 'good' is going to be completely subjective to what each of us as a gamer likes.  It doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure out that those who love the trinity aren't going to complain about it. But I welcome that experience over re-hashing what I have been playing since 1999.

    image
  • dzoni87dzoni87 BelgradePosts: 541Member
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

    image

    What the guy said :D

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member

    "Stood the test of time"...more like it's "outdated". The more action-oriented the game is, the more incompatible it is for a hard trinity system.

    It's not like GW2 was ALWAYS zergy; the experience changes depending who you're around with. It has the potential to be the better or worse experience, compared to a Trinity based system that I will ALWAYS find dull and predictable in the sense that I always know what I'm there for, and what my contributions will be.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    Ignoring human nature will fail or at least only attract a small following. If you throw 1000 people onto a desert island only a hand full will take initiative an lead, a few less will want to help coordinate and the rest of the mass will be happy to follow. This behavior runs thru everything in life including games and is what the holy trinity mirrors.

     

    Making it so "everyone" can do "everything" just goes against human nature and will only attract a small population. It doesn't even fit realistically. Imagine if I was that boss and I had five people attacking me what would I do? I would kill the high threat to my life first and then move on. I wouldn't stop or randomly change my target for no reason.

     

    Under the trinity system the boss or mobs attacking the "highest threat" to their life (albeit a mechanic) at least makes sense in the real world. I've said it before that tanks threat mechanic should be pure dps to make it even more realistic i.e tanks do the highest damage hence attract the most attention as that are the highest threat ot life. As a bonus would create more tanks. 

    EQN isn't getting rid of roles though, just the strict holy-trinity roles. They've stated multiple times in the SOE Live panels that they don't want to get rid of roles in EQN.

    The problem with the trinity system is that it just wouldn't work with the robust AI system they have in place. An intelligent mob won't just focus a single party member while 10 other guys are bashing it - that is predictable and primitive AI. Think of it like PvP, a real player will be constantly changing his targets based on his situation. Storybricks wants to make npc AI much more lifelike. Traditional threat/aggro mechanics just won't work in this game.

    Constantly changing targets is a good way to fail.  You do a little damage to everyone, but kill no one. 

    That sounds like GW2 in reverse. Instead of the players running from mob to mob to mob just to get tags without focusing on killing the target, so they can get credit for loot,  now the mobs will be doing that to the players.

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 760Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

     

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    Old D&D doesn't have the trinity, that was added in the latest edition (4th which mmo-ized the ruleset and players hate it so much that the 5th version is already being made). D&D 2nd and 3rd Editions do not have aggro management (GM and dices decide), there are no taunts in the rulesets. Healing is mostly done outside of combat (in combat is dangerous because your Cleric will probably get hit while trying to heal). Everyone deal damage. Multiclassing exist as well and with it come sharing abilities. The mobs are as stupid or intelligent as the GM decide too.

    In D&D, roles don't exist because the classes are dedicated to something. The role exist because the encounters require tactics to resolve and the players can build their characters to come up with any tactics. The combat is also slower so you can come up with brilliant ideas in a fight depending on your build.

    In D&D, a Wizard isn't necessarily a DPS, he could be a CCer or a debuffer/buffer. He could do a little bit of everything too. A Cleric isn't just a out-of-combat healbot, they make awesome meatshield and damage dealers too (my favorite D&D class).

  • NephelaiNephelai SydneyPosts: 182Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    I could live with that reasoning..  The man stabbing me the most that is close to me gets MY attention..  His buddy might be throwing rocks at me, but in the heat of a fight, that man with the knife is my primary focus.. Range DPS would carry less threat, and other melee dps like a rogue has to select his attack moments.. Healers carry on as usual, no change..  And I really get tired hearing smart AI's.. Smart AI's should only apply to intelligent humanoids, not a pack of wolves or a bear.. I personally would like to see the trinity (role system) expanded to include  more CC, better buffing and debuffing.. and utility support

     

    See you're dumbing it down already. You're scripting the fight just like trinity. What if the ranged guy has an M16? You're just going to sit there and fight the guy with a measly knife while the guy at range  cuts you to pieces?  Why would a ranged dps carry less threat? You're scripting the encounters to suite your idea of how you would like the fight to go to give YOU the most satisfaction.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs. 

    Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs. 

    Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)

    Soon as you learn to read. I didn't say the trinity was used in PnP RPGs. I said it was used longer than even D&D. Meaning, it preceeds D&D

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • NephelaiNephelai SydneyPosts: 182Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    What you described sounds like a much more interesting mechanic than traditional tank-heal-dps roles. You're making assumptions that these sort of encounters would only "smash groups" but how do we know that? I'm sure SOE is quite capable of designing intelligent mob encounters that are very possible to take down, you and many people seem to be stuck in the traditional mindset of only one design.

    We haven't seen this design in context so we don't know how well it will work.

     

    You don't need to see it. If any programmer designed a boss with more health and more control and more power than players THEN gave it the best PvP instincts it would destroy groups. The only way is to give it faults that can be exploited by real players which makes the argument of trinity v no trinity redundant. The debate is solely about preferred style of play only. One group likes control and roles the other likes out of control and the "feeling" of no roles. Human nature is the former.

     

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

    Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

    "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

    Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

    The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

    You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs. 

    Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)

    Soon as you learn to read. I didn't say the trinity was used in PnP RPGs. I said it was used longer than even D&D. Meaning, it preceeds D&D

    Do you have any proof of this? I talked to my friends father who played these back in the 70s and hes never heard of the trinity, tank, healer, or dps. D&D for entered publication in 1974 and I highly doubt they used the trinity in the 60s.

    Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
    Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    We already had a game that had the non trinity system, it failed miserably. Do you actually think this will fair any better ? I don't. Once proven a failed system players turn away from it despite some still believing this type of combat set up actually works.
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  • ice-vortexice-vortex Xenia, OHPosts: 951Member
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
    We already had a game that had the non trinity system, it failed miserably. Do you actually think this will fair any better ? I don't. Once proven a failed system players turn away from it despite some still believing this type of combat set up actually works.

    So which game was that? Ultima Online? Asheon's Call? Guild Wars 1?

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by DSWBeef

    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Aceshighhhh Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today: "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."  Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
    One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.
    Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI. The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.
    You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs.  Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)
    Soon as you learn to read. I didn't say the trinity was used in PnP RPGs. I said it was used longer than even D&D. Meaning, it preceeds D&D
    Do you have any proof of this? I talked to my friends father who played these back in the 70s and hes never heard of the trinity, tank, healer, or dps. D&D for entered publication in 1974 and I highly doubt they used the trinity in the 60s.
    Everybody knows Pinball invented the trinity. Flippers are the tank, the ball is dps, and that pocket full of quarters is your heals. Where do you think the term pocket healer comes from?
  • arbacusarbacus red deer, ABPosts: 39Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tkreep
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The thing that is primitive is action combat.

    It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

    And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

     

    So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

     

    On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

     

    Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

    The current action mmos still use the same primitive AI thats in trinity based games, which is threat dependent.  In GW2 the mobs still attack the ones with the most threat which is still determined by whos doing the most damage or doing the most healing, its still no different from a trinity system.  Smart AI is when the mobs attack based on whats more strategic to their long term survival and what can they do with their abilities to make that happen all based on what kind of enemy(s) and surrounding environment.

    And there are mmos with action combat and smart AI that doesnt end up in zerg fest coming out like the Division for example.  GW2s mistake is that it was trying to be half and half. Theres lots of team work going on in that gameplay video against the AI.

     

    That is where you are just wrong holy trinity works regardless of intelligence of AI. You just have to use intelligence in designing the holy trinity rather than lazy design and just mirroring enough skills across classes, so that defined rolls are destroyed. Threat is in a dumb AI and a smart AI don't let their marketing terms fool you. AI has to figure out who it should attack a dumb AI is easily manipulated by lame skills like taunt a smart AI will need much more reaction and engagement from players to control where it's damage is funneled. Now the damage I refur to as funneled can be the enemy's focused/melee damage or aoe/ranged damage. Focused damage will obviously be harder to avoid if its not dumbed down so a party has to soak it up somehow(tank?), AOE/Ranged damage however it makes sense to just avoid most of it.

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  • DemalisDemalis Drumheller, ABPosts: 134Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by DSWBeef

    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Originally posted by Loktofeit


    Everybody knows Pinball invented the trinity. Flippers are the tank, the ball is dps, and that pocket full of quarters is your heals. Where do you think the term pocket healer comes from?

     

    I endorse this comment.

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