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Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...
mmorpgs are tricky. besides the impact on pvp, the more multiboxing and botting is allowed , the more players will be required to do it to stay 'productive' (unless there is activity that cannot be botted that gives better rewards for active only play, although players will always try find a way to multi or bot these)
but the less it is allowed, the more gold sellers will control the games economy, limited only by the open world pvp nature of the game and not always then (darkfall 1, for example, had no botting but yes multiboxing, although gold sellers were able to successfuly farm enough to supply many players)
you might have your SB1 buff/summon bots, the AC1 unattended combat macros, eve online belt farming, market botting (true control of eve),
in my opinion, the best system for me is one where players can multi box and can bot for good rewards , xp and loot, but are limited only by a fully open world pvp system. i realize this is not everyones ideal system. i can and do enjoy other kinds of games.
It basicly comes down to bad game design.
I begin to see why some people dislike tab targeting so much.
Sure, a company could take a zero tolerance stance on 3rd party software.. But Im sure clever people could circumvent that by using hardware in some way.. Even that that too is disallowed it is harder to prove.
If you dont have to make a unique key stroke for every single action on every single character, then it is the most extreme example of paying to win. Even for games without an item shop or subscription. Worst case the company recieves no extra money from all of these accounts and they are driving paying customers away. When I said Pay to Win I was referring to paying for 3rd party software or an elaborate hardware setup. (Although in the case of subscription based games or essential items from the item mall, there would be some money going to the game.)
I've multiboxed in a few games. But I have never cloned my keystrokes or automated what wasnt already automated, like passive shield block, autoattacks, /follow or autopilot. Ok I jammed a key with a piece of paper to allow my shaman to keep casting heal.. which incidently allowed, or forced, due to aggro from over healing, 2 of my shamans to tank pretty much anything in DAoC PvE.
Anyways, I have found multiboxing to be quite enjoyable at times and down right necessary at other times. But I would think this keystroke cloning would soon lose its allure for me.
Multiboxing isn't how the games are supposed to be played, but in most cases it only has a slight influence on the ingame economy. What was presented by the OP is gamebreaking. Sure "a coordinated group could take them down." But how often do you run into one of those in MMOs these days. Especially when the choices offered are: Join solo/duo and get farmed. Try to organize a group and get farmed. Spend weeks getting farmed trying to train a guild group. Or pay 5 dollars per month for some 3rd party software and pwn newbs all day long and maybe get owned back once a day.
argh.. Im just rambling on THE END
Originally posted by thegreatestagain you might have your SB1 buff/summon bots, the AC1 unattended combat macros, eve online belt farming, market botting (true control of eve),
I have no problem at all with this sort, provided you can kill them for profit. Although as far as I know that only applies to the macro miners of EvE.. But those I saw as NPCs that paid for for my enjoyment twice. once to CCP for game time and once ingame for me to get a better ship.
Ofcourse they did their part to ruin mining as a career. It was dull enough to begin with.. But since minerals were much easier to get from missions it hardly mattered. Mission macroers or belt ratting macroers were not part of my personal experience, so I wont speak to the effect of that.
I have my own opinion on bans,they are or more or less a way to avoid discussion and talking over a problem,it is a way of saying, "I don't care".
It matters even more when you involve as mentioned the person responsible for doing just that,discussing a problem.
Now there is also a trend followed by MOST sites,people in charge which i also don't agree with .That is they tend to say if you don't talk to us in the proper fashion,we will ignore you.I mention this because i like others are not certain of all the particulars but i also have another opinion.Two wrongs don't make a right and never will.
How one person conducts themselves does not make it right for the other to follow the same ignorant or rude pattern,however such is life,that is usually what happens.This is also very important because rules or no rules,you can't use rules to hide your character.Example you can't act like an ass hat just because the other person broke the rules.
Everything i mentioned matters to both the site employees and the users,i just see so many poor morals carried throughout our society,always someone pointing a finger at someone else.Point is there might be ,could be a problem it is all a matter of opinion,either way Trion SHOULD be willing to discuss it on forums,that is what forums are for.If my point still was not clear,it means you SHOULD also treat their employees with respect but even if you did not the problem should still be discussed.
My opinion is really undecided,i do know what problems arise from allowing duo boxing,example one is botted and often hard to prove,another is you are allowing the player that spends more money to have a VERY definite advantage.Are those two concerns alone ,enough to warrant Trion to rethink their stance,i would say most certainly.If their reaction is to SNUFF at anyone's discussion on the topic,i say it shows poor character by an employee representing Trion.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So in other words, you got an official statement from Trion, got official statements from the community people, and then proceeded to publicly discuss things like forum moderation and the rules that Trion setup for their game, and went out of your way to "call out" one of the community managers. Nice. Not surprising you got banned. Trion made their position on the matter clear. You should have left it at that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
In my experience, Multi-boxing has always been discouraged and frowned upon in Online Gaming.
How Multi-boxing is dealt with is an entirely different matter.
Then again i can't remember the last time i read a Terms of Service to begin with, haha.
Originally posted by Neoyoshi In my experience, Multi-boxing has always been discouraged and frowned upon in Online Gaming.
Perhaps, but when it starts to hurt the game, developers are forced to introduce a harsher policy and to enforce it if they want to stay in business.
I would also add that while the Devs might be frowning till their eye brows reach their chins, they often say it is completly within the ToS or EULA or whatever. Atleast until their customers start leaving in droves.
Basicly its a cost benefit analysis going on.. when will it cost less to fix a mechanic or enforce a policy. And sometimes it is individual GMs making policy as they decide what is banable and what isnt.
Originally posted by WW4BW Originally posted by Neoyoshi In my experience, Multi-boxing has always been discouraged and frowned upon in Online Gaming.
There's a tipping point where multiboxing is so widespread that they will never do anything to hurt multiboxers.
In Everquest multiboxing is so widespread (50% or more are multiboxers) that not allowing it would cut in their proftis way too much
As far as multiboxing, multiboxing hurts everyone except the people who multibox, from the market to the game balance, PVP, etc
Originally posted by tristanryan Originally posted by Purutzil Originally posted by tristanryan For the record, you believe this type of play in a PvP environment is "fair play"?
I never said I really consider it fair play, I just said its not exploiting. Just because I dislike something and feel its bad doesn't mean I'm going to just bad mouth it and call it something that it is not.
Originally posted by Waterlily Negative. Many MMO use Gameguard and hackshield. Circumventing the anti-hack software by using a VM is illegal. Can't believe I am explaining this.
... Pull up the terms of service of a game in which it explicitly says that. I'll be here waiting to see proof from a game.
According to your logic, if you are logged on a game on two computers, that would be bypassing anti-hack software. A VM (or a different computer as it acts) is NOT bypassing the anti-hack software, its using it on another system thus not disrupting it.
Try not and have a course tone with someone as if they are stupid, its quite rude. Just since I make a point you are not fond of doesn't mean you need to act hostile towards me.
With all due respect, this person isnt using multiple computers. This person, is violating the TOS with 3rd party software which is against the Terms of Service agreement. Pressing 1 button, causes 10+ characters to act in unison, be it movement, or using predetermined skill sets.
Have you sent in a message to them, asking them if this was a cheat? and what their stand is? Because i have. And they told me as long as some one is behind the wheel, it doesn't count as an exploint. Also i watched that video. Did you see the players that rush him knowing they would going to die? They are called bots, and yet you say nothing about them?
I have also faced a 6 person boxer and beat them, take out the leader the others fall. I think basically you cant beat them, so you are complaining. End of story, end of post
That video is awesome, you know whats even more awesome?
Seeing so many tears here about it i love it.
Fine, we'll compromise. I'll get my way & you'll find a way to be okay with that.
Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by Margulis snip
(Particularly games that award points for killing other players in duels, you could milk them fast that way (remember rumors about people doing it in AoC way back).
Glad you brought this up. THIS wasnt a multibox issue, this was an issue where the diminishing return from killing a specivic player would reset by trading kills due to a bug, which.. Funcom fixed by resetting most of these exploiters pvp xp and levels to 0 and took away every single pvp assosiated piece of gear.
Originally posted by Aadien Have you sent in a message to them, asking them if this was a cheat? and what their stand is? Because i have. And they told me as long as some one is behind the wheel, it doesn't count as an exploint. Also i watched that video. Did you see the players that rush him knowing they would going to die? They are called bots, and yet you say nothing about them? I have also faced a 6 person boxer and beat them, take out the leader the others fall. I think basically you cant beat them, so you are complaining. End of story, end of post
#1 The players rushing him and dieing are not bots. Those are players that are getting killed in one GCD. This is something even the most elite of premades cannot coordinate. Nobody, anywhere, can fire off exact same abilities at the exact same second across 10+ different players.
#2 You have faced a 6 person box and beat them, taking out the leader makes the others fall? Apparently you didnt watch the video or you use crap multiboxing software. After the first dies its extremely simple and easy to switch to box 2 in the blink of an eye. You think bascially i cant beat them so i complain? I would like to see you beat something that kills you in one GCD. Tell me, exactly, how you would react or defend when after one skill press and you are dead.
#3 No, it isnt the end of story, or the end of the post.
Its kind of pathetic people even defend this style of play. It really shows you where this genre is headed and if it stays in that direction MMORPGs will cease to exist because absolutely nobody will play them.
Proper aim in an FPS can lead to a one shot kill which definitely correlates with player skill and muscle coordination. One shot kills in a tab target MMORPG are absolutely retarded.
Originally posted by lolunatic no one plays this game for its pvp... whats the problem?
That's not entirely true.PVP is very popular.
Originally posted by tristanryan Its kind of pathetic people even defend this style of play. It really shows you where this genre is headed and if it stays in that direction MMORPGs will cease to exist because absolutely nobody will play them. Proper aim in an FPS can lead to a one shot kill which definitely correlates with player skill and muscle coordination. One shot kills in a tab target MMORPG are absolutely retarded.
Im reserving my feelings towards multu-boxing for myself but as ussual the youtube linked doesnt show the problem with Multi-boxing. its those 1-2 players running into a full group and die, wether 5-6 seperate players wont coordinate is besides the point, these players would have died ratther fast even if it was a group of seperate players.
2nd you are right, seperate players wont coordinate as well timed as a multiboxer but with the proper macros you can get darn close to it.
As for the guy who was griping about a world boss dieing rediculas fast.. again with 10-11 simular geared players would have died just as fast..
Originally posted by Aadien Originally posted by tristanryan Originally posted by Purutzil Originally posted by tristanryan For the record, you believe this type of play in a PvP environment is "fair play"?
Originally posted by Waterlily Negative. Many MMO use Gameguard and hackshield. Circumventing the anti-hack software by using a VM is illegal. Can't believe I am explaining this.
They may not call it an exploit, but I would and I would not support a company that allows it. How many players like me can they afford to lose? Some gaming companies have the smarts to nip this sort of thing in the bud, knowing from the get go, just how much it can cost them subscribers / cash shoppers. I used to respect Trion, but after the Defiance fiasco and now this, I have very little interest in patronizing them now or in the future.
I have waited for this post to go a ways before I put some input to it. I believe you the OP have experienced fighting a match in pvp with someone who is botting. For as long as mmos have been around botting has been a part of them. From Asherons Call to EQ to SWG, DAOC WOW, EQII, there have always been bots. The reasoning for them differ. Anyone who has botted has done so for a specific reason. In EQI botting takes place not because the botter is trying to take advantage of someone else. But in part because at lower levels finding a group is difficult. In Dark Age of Camelot Realm vs Realm brought botters specifically to buff his or her main. These are just examples.
While I personally do not promote botting. Saying it is a exploit is completely out of bounds. Now to Rift. I dont bot in Rift. I have multiple characters and see no point in botting. In pvp botters would not like to meet me. As I am whats called a minimaxer. I believe you are fairly new to Rift. Complaining about someone who is botting will have little effect of it changing. What you can do is learn how to best effectively play and equip you character. Rift is a somewhat gear centric game.
Also, instead of worrying what(X) player/players have or dont have. I would stick to worrying about yourself. Having friends in game is very important. A good guild, a good social network. People to enjoy the game with. Having that enhances your game experience. Makes those pvp battle much more fun when you have partners with you.
I would not worry so much about a botter. In my case a botter usually means stacking my stats. I would think about getting your characters to that point. As the reality is its your character/characters. What you make of them and the environment around you is up to you. Complaining really does you or anyone else no good. Take advantage of the situation to better your characters.
Hope you take my advice to its fullest extent. Good Luck!
It's been like this in quite a few games. The thing is, it isn't that easy to be good at multiboxing. You have to have the characters set up properly to even do anything in pvp, usually if a group of people is as large as the persons multiboxing group then the players will win over them, simply becuase while multiboxing you can't really react to certain situations that well because you can't take control of characters like a team with individual players can, you just have to spam a button and hope one of your characters can land it.
In wow there was a 40 boxer on my server, named aredone. He ended up leaving becuase he was constantly getting annihilated by groups less than his 40 man group. I'm not saying it's fair in lower amounts of people, but I'm saying it shouldn't be that big of an issue. Every game has multiboxers, there are people who thrive on that kind of stuff. It isn't exploiting, it's just multitasking with a program, and at the same time people sometimes treat it like botting. Which is arguable to whether or not it is, but in my opinion it isn't. Simply because it is really not all that viable.
In the MMO I play the most Lineage 2, multiboxing has been pretty much a necessity because of buffer classes, but it isn't like this. Usually someone would have 1 character they play, and 3 buffers that he would idle somewhere else and run back to when he was needing more buffs.
It does look like he is playing all the same class, so I'm sure if you had people working together it wouldn't be all that hard to take him down.
In case anyone else is interested--as I was--on how this issue was "resolved," they removed the auto-follow ability from PVP scenarios and Warfronts.
It doesn't eliminate multiboxing from PVP since it just makes it a tiny bit more difficult to get all your characters in position. But once you have them all where you want them, you can still fire off your 10 nukes from 10 characters with just one key press.
At least its some recognition that there is a problem.
The new thread discussing this in the Rift forums if you're interested: http://forums.riftgame.com/general-discussions/general-discussion/379204-follow-disabled-warfronts-conquest.html