Personally I think I'll reserve judgement until we see something thats like actually more final or get some hands on experience with it... The game isn't even anywhere near Closed Beta yet, things can change quite dramatically before final release which is a long ways away... All the QQ on the forums here is pretty ridiculous.
Agree with your post. They said you can play offensive or deffensive, but maybe a healer have to participate in game ie looking at fight, moving around and make some DPS instead of lokking at macro or buttons, Sounds good to me.
I see such little objective thinking nowadays about games.
The holy trinity really indoctrinated people hard.
Well the holy trinity was part of table top D&D. But they had other classes such as the bards and rogues and tricksters and strikers and so on and so on. It is a extremely successful model and was has been used by MMORPG with mixed results. EQ had the bards and other support classes. But Games like wow began to do away with classes like enchanters because it's difficult to get a group together when you need different classes and people tend to play DPS either to show of or because they see it as an easy gig.
The gameplay videos looked like Diablo-style combat.
Diablo sux
They better get some testers going on this combat system so they can realize it's no good and start working on a better system. Otherwise, they can scratch their heads in a couple of years trying to figure out why their beloved games fizzled out after a few months after launch
it is expected, the game isnt done. they will be able to answer question more easily once they get testers in to figure out what works and what doesn't. don't think they are dodging anything, just that it is the unknown as of now.
I see such little objective thinking nowadays about games.
The holy trinity really indoctrinated people hard.
Well the holy trinity was part of table top D&D. But they had other classes such as the bards and rogues and tricksters and strikers and so on and so on. It is a extremely successful model and was has been used by MMORPG with mixed results. EQ had the bards and other support classes. But Games like wow began to do away with classes like enchanters because it's difficult to get a group together when you need different classes and people tend to play DPS either to show of or because they see it as an easy gig.
No...D&D had roles yes defense,offense and support and characters were really different mixes of the 3 or at least 2 but could all at least dps.There was also no aggro mechanic in D&D the DM decided based on intelligence of the mob and his own discretion who the mob would go after.
SO no the Holy Trinity didn't exist then as we know it now.
I see such little objective thinking nowadays about games.
The holy trinity really indoctrinated people hard.
Well the holy trinity was part of table top D&D. But they had other classes such as the bards and rogues and tricksters and strikers and so on and so on. It is a extremely successful model and was has been used by MMORPG with mixed results. EQ had the bards and other support classes. But Games like wow began to do away with classes like enchanters because it's difficult to get a group together when you need different classes and people tend to play DPS either to show of or because they see it as an easy gig.
Incorrect sir. Roles were part of the game, but the trinity was not. The trinity was a construct pretty much created by EQ and perpetuated by every game that followed. It was created to compensate for the lack of technology and programming in early MMOs.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I don't play themepark games, and I don't feel that way.
I feel like the combat will be bad because I understand how AI works, being a computer programmer. I also understand what made games good in the past, and its irrelevant to dungeons or raids, it was the mechanics that promoted player interdependence. Both the ability to switch classes on the fly, multi-class AND the removal of necessary roles in combat just does not make for intelligent combat. They already effectively removed the need for any player interdependence via class specific abilities by allowing players to switch and combine abilities, but going further and dumbing down combat (I don't care how much "emergent AI" there is) is just taking it too far. A combat system that allows players to succeed without any necessary roles will ALWAYS result in playing cat and mouse, kiting and button mashing dps. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the whole system was designed to be viable on a handheld controller (Playstation 4 anyone?). Come on, a maximum of 4 class abilities? Get real.
Oh, Dullahan, keep beating that tired old drum. As I've posted on a couple of occasions, your fictitious assertions don't hold up under scrutiny. You should watch the Panels again. Then, watch them one more time and rinse and repeat until you understand what the Dev's have said. Just for you, I'm going to supply a link you should pay close attention to. Why? I will bullet the counter-points:
Multi-classing is an option
Roles are still there and are just as viable
Mob AI has been kicked up a hundred notches, so you have to play smarter
The removal of the tank aggro system is due to the smarter AI
Player interdependence is huge and necessary
If you mindlessly button mash you will die. Play smarter, because the mobs definitely will
Ref: Class Panel part 2 see 13:30 and 19:18 (although the whole Panel is filled with great info)
Now, I understand that you won't really watch that. However, for the people that haven't seen the panels and who might believe your misinformation, I've supplied factual data.
I don't play themepark games, and I don't feel that way.
I feel like the combat will be bad because I understand how AI works, being a computer programmer. I also understand what made games good in the past, and its irrelevant to dungeons or raids, it was the mechanics that promoted player interdependence. Both the ability to switch classes on the fly, multi-class AND the removal of necessary roles in combat just does not make for intelligent combat. They already effectively removed the need for any player interdependence via class specific abilities by allowing players to switch and combine abilities, but going further and dumbing down combat (I don't care how much "emergent AI" there is) is just taking it too far. A combat system that allows players to succeed without any necessary roles will ALWAYS result in playing cat and mouse, kiting and button mashing dps. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the whole system was designed to be viable on a handheld controller (Playstation 4 anyone?). Come on, a maximum of 4 class abilities? Get real.
Oh, Dullahan, keep beating that tired old drum. As I've posted on a couple of occasions, your fictitious assertions don't hold up under scrutiny. You should watch the Panels again. Then, watch them one more time and rinse and repeat until you understand what the Dev's have said. Just for you, I'm going to supply a link you should pay close attention to. Why? I will bullet the counter-points:
Multi-classing is an option
Roles are still there and are just as viable
Mob AI has been kicked up a hundred notches, so you have to play smarter
The removal of the tank aggro system is due to the smarter AI
Player interdependence is huge and necessary
If you mindlessly button mash you will die. Play smarter, because the mobs definitely will
Ref: Class Panel part 2 see 13:30 and 19:18 (although the whole Panel is filled with great info)
Now, I understand that you won't really watch that. However, for the people that haven't seen the panels and who might believe your misinformation, I've supplied factual data.
Good post. Part of the issue here is that no one has seen the AI yet. I'm sure at some point we will get some demos about it so people can understand why aggro tanking won't work anymore. Those of us who have the capacity to think, can already imagine how that might work.
There are so many false assertions on these forums that it boggles the mind. Half of these people haven't watched a single minute of the livestream or the panels, and they are just making up their own scenarios. Either that or they are far too dumb to be concerned about playing an MMO. They should be out buying headgear.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I don't play themepark games, and I don't feel that way.
I feel like the combat will be bad because I understand how AI works, being a computer programmer. I also understand what made games good in the past, and its irrelevant to dungeons or raids, it was the mechanics that promoted player interdependence. Both the ability to switch classes on the fly, multi-class AND the removal of necessary roles in combat just does not make for intelligent combat. They already effectively removed the need for any player interdependence via class specific abilities by allowing players to switch and combine abilities, but going further and dumbing down combat (I don't care how much "emergent AI" there is) is just taking it too far. A combat system that allows players to succeed without any necessary roles will ALWAYS result in playing cat and mouse, kiting and button mashing dps. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the whole system was designed to be viable on a handheld controller (Playstation 4 anyone?). Come on, a maximum of 4 class abilities? Get real.
Oh, Dullahan, keep beating that tired old drum. As I've posted on a couple of occasions, your fictitious assertions don't hold up under scrutiny. You should watch the Panels again. Then, watch them one more time and rinse and repeat until you understand what the Dev's have said. Just for you, I'm going to supply a link you should pay close attention to. Why? I will bullet the counter-points:
Multi-classing is an option
Roles are still there and are just as viable
Mob AI has been kicked up a hundred notches, so you have to play smarter
The removal of the tank aggro system is due to the smarter AI
Player interdependence is huge and necessary
If you mindlessly button mash you will die. Play smarter, because the mobs definitely will
Ref: Class Panel part 2 see 13:30 and 19:18 (although the whole Panel is filled with great info)
Now, I understand that you won't really watch that. However, for the people that haven't seen the panels and who might believe your misinformation, I've supplied factual data.
Watched and rewatched.
Still see their hatred of any mechanics that might even potentially ostracize a player in any way. That means levels, that means "necessary roles" (which they specifically said they would NEVER have). Sorry you don't see it. Not going to go back through and provide you with quotes, because its obvious your mind is made up to "keep the faith" in SOE.
I, on the other hand, will not be defending them regardless of how many innovative features they add to the list. By all means though, continue to "fight the good fight." You would be a good PR guy for SOE; You down play all the most important points and highlight possible interpretations of vague statements remarkably well. Maybe you should submit an app.
I don't play themepark games, and I don't feel that way.
I feel like the combat will be bad because I understand how AI works, being a computer programmer. I also understand what made games good in the past, and its irrelevant to dungeons or raids, it was the mechanics that promoted player interdependence. Both the ability to switch classes on the fly, multi-class AND the removal of necessary roles in combat just does not make for intelligent combat. They already effectively removed the need for any player interdependence via class specific abilities by allowing players to switch and combine abilities, but going further and dumbing down combat (I don't care how much "emergent AI" there is) is just taking it too far. A combat system that allows players to succeed without any necessary roles will ALWAYS result in playing cat and mouse, kiting and button mashing dps. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the whole system was designed to be viable on a handheld controller (Playstation 4 anyone?). Come on, a maximum of 4 class abilities? Get real.
Oh, Dullahan, keep beating that tired old drum. As I've posted on a couple of occasions, your fictitious assertions don't hold up under scrutiny. You should watch the Panels again. Then, watch them one more time and rinse and repeat until you understand what the Dev's have said. Just for you, I'm going to supply a link you should pay close attention to. Why? I will bullet the counter-points:
Multi-classing is an option
Roles are still there and are just as viable
Mob AI has been kicked up a hundred notches, so you have to play smarter
The removal of the tank aggro system is due to the smarter AI
Player interdependence is huge and necessary
If you mindlessly button mash you will die. Play smarter, because the mobs definitely will
Ref: Class Panel part 2 see 13:30 and 19:18 (although the whole Panel is filled with great info)
Now, I understand that you won't really watch that. However, for the people that haven't seen the panels and who might believe your misinformation, I've supplied factual data.
Watched and rewatched.
Still see their hatred of any mechanics that might even potentially ostracize a player in any way. That means levels, that means "necessary roles" (which they specifically said they would NEVER have). Sorry you don't see it. Not going to go back through and provide you with quotes, because its obvious your mind is made up to "keep the faith" in SOE.
I, on the other hand, will not be defending them regardless of how many innovative features they add to the list. By all means though, continue to "fight the good fight." You would be a good PR guy for SOE; You down play all the most important points and highlight possible interpretations of vague statements remarkably well. Maybe you should submit an app.
sorry.. but the more you post.. the less believable you are... in your other post.. you said there are 4 class abilities.. that isn't true at all
there are 8.. four optional abilities based on a combination of wpn/class. each wpn does different things for each class...Then there are 4 pure class abilities.. based on what class you select. Building on that they give you the option of not using your class abilities and introducing 4 other class abilities. being able to mix abilities doesn't ruin interdependence.. The inability to adapt and think ruins group combat. cc abilities are much more believable than traditional taunt abilities. so if a tank has cc abilities that allow him to control the pace of the fight.. i don't see why he would no longer be a tank. as long as he can perform the basic protection of other party members function... he is still a tank. he may not be able to protect them 100%.. but protecting someone 50-70% is much better than not at all.
No, this game has too much unreleased information, and people speculate about things they saw in other games without knowing anything tangible about this game.
Originally posted by itchmon shouldnt we at least see a minute or two of game play before we say the game has unresolved issues? I'm not saying people cant theorycraft (or theoryquest) but lets not bury the poor game even before we have seen actual gameplay footage.
Not really. It's a bit like asking to see a match lit to see that it burns. We know how this plays out, it's been done before.
Originally posted by itchmon shouldnt we at least see a minute or two of game play before we say the game has unresolved issues? I'm not saying people cant theorycraft (or theoryquest) but lets not bury the poor game even before we have seen actual gameplay footage.
Not really. It's a bit like asking to see a match lit to see that it burns. We know how this plays out, it's been done before.
Not really, thats just like saying every hamburger is the same.. cause its a hamburger.
Originally posted by itchmon shouldnt we at least see a minute or two of game play before we say the game has unresolved issues? I'm not saying people cant theorycraft (or theoryquest) but lets not bury the poor game even before we have seen actual gameplay footage.
Not really. It's a bit like asking to see a match lit to see that it burns. We know how this plays out, it's been done before.
Not really, thats just like saying every hamburger is the same.. cause its a hamburger.
Watching the Q&A panel made me realise, as I suspected, that this team has no solution for the inherent problems of action combat that GW2 has.
Someone asked the question how a lack of trinity, is going fix the issue of tanks and healers in the game, and how they are going to avoid the issues GW2 has. Their answer is simply:
"Everyone is DPS"
It's like they don't realise the issues with action combat or didn't anticipate these questions.
I think this game is severely underdeveloped and they have no idea whatsoever on how to fix gameplay issues when they copy the action combat system and remove trinity and aggro.
Let alone all the community and raid issues this system creates.
The fact they said earlier in the video that they think having to rely on other classes in a raid is a bad system, but don't offer an alternative except making everyone DPS and removing tanks and healers, is staggering.
It's completely mindboggling how this game that has more holes in their system than swiss cheese got "best MMORPG of E3"
They actually sound like they know the problem but yea, they don't quite sound like they have the answer yet.
I feel the answer to the problem is great encounter design. Give the mobs pack mentality, give the mobs skills that make the players actually think about how to beat them instead of just running through them (for instance, a support caster mob in the back, an anti-caster mob in the front, and a heavy CC mob that knocks players around) with big dps and you have yourself a game without a trinity but with structure when it comes to tackling the content.
Originally posted by itchmon shouldnt we at least see a minute or two of game play before we say the game has unresolved issues? I'm not saying people cant theorycraft (or theoryquest) but lets not bury the poor game even before we have seen actual gameplay footage.
Not really. It's a bit like asking to see a match lit to see that it burns. We know how this plays out, it's been done before.
Not really, thats just like saying every hamburger is the same.. cause its a hamburger.
I think a lot of this hate would be dispelled if you had a full party combat demo, instead you had 2 guys fighting 1 giant mob.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Going to admit i have far more expirience with WoW then EQ 1 and EQ 2. To make this easier i will compare EQN GW2 versus WoW as most people here have at least done a few dungeons or raids in WoW.
Traditional mmo
The Tank The Healer The DPS / Crowd Control
You got good and bads playing mmo's.
The Tank and his gaming / playing skill
You can see it the moment the 1st mob it pulled if you got that super tank that knows how to play ball and rape dungeons, some even mock you for trying to take aggro off them in playfull manner. They know wich skills to use, how to maintain aggro, how to pull bosses, how to use their offensive and defensive skills and time those perfecly.
But no tank good or bad will survive without The Healer no matter how skilled the Tank may be.
The Healer and his gaming / playing skill
Most of the succes in hardmore contend be it in dungeons or raids depend on this man or woman. 1 mistake and it is game over and you can start again.
Healer is one of those classes that have great responsibility, not only do then keep the tank alive, they also need to keep themselves and the DPS going. You can spot those wonderfull skilled healers reasly fast.
They know to react to big spikes of damage, AoE damamge or just /cast renew to conserve mana. People call them whack a mole stly of play, i call them hero's, people dont roll a class they hate, they roll that class they love and have fun playing.
The DPS / Crow Controller
In the old days of WoW they could make a diffrence between a 2 hour dungeon run or a 1 hour dungeon run. Everyone played dps t some point in their mmo carreer i asume and to be a good dps you have to use all those that are given to you.
A good dps will know his class, watch their suroundings and react to those. Healer under attack ? use CC to give the healer some breathing room and recover. Need AoE damage ? spam those AoE but watch the crowd contolled mob/s. Most dps is pretty straight forward. But you can also instandly see which guy fully understands his class and the random noob pressing one of the 40 skills. We all seen that warlock spamming drain life 50 minutes dont we ?
The Trinity gone - GW2
We applauded it, myself included. We loved it, we wanted it, we longed for it after the trinity for 2 decades or more.
No healers no tanks, just you and your skills versus the angry mob. I played a ranger in GW2 straight to level 80. I never grouped with anyone, i did shitloads of public events, The Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless, men o men when i first saw it i had a 190 bpm heartbeat. But something felt odd right from start to the end.
(And this is the point were it started to daunt in me)
I was just nuking and nuking with a group of people (70+?) at least. No strategy was talked, no healing needed, dont stand in the poo and you can faceroll trough it. No words were spoken during the whole encounter then a few words like AWMAHGOD EPIC EPIC !!! OMFG !!!! I was disapointed.........not by the scale of things !! that was realy breat taking, But the difficulty... it was to easy to slay a dragon so big so easy.
At that moment i rememberd a boss in WoW, Razorgore, a simple boss with a few eggs in the room, how hard could it be ? this would be a cakewalk with our A raid team. wrong, our guild (third best of the server) tried and tried and tried. day 1 - 5 hours of wipes day 2 - more countless hours of wipes week 1 - 1% many many times second week....our guild almost fell apart, people dodged our raids, dint log in, frustration commenced in our ranks.
We refused to read guides or ask the #1 guild of our server for info. So we tried and tried and finaly figured out how to beat Razorgore. Nerd screams of epicness, we slain the dragon.
This fight was a race against time, healers needed to play their best, tanks needed to pick up elite mobs, dps needed to not die and do MAX dps it required a gigantic amount of >>>teamwork<<< to down that boss. Iam not going into details how the tactical side of this fight was, as this post would be way to long, but i give you a guide if your interested about it http://www.wowwiki.com/Razorgore_the_Untamed
Fast forward to GW2 again and The Shatterer, we downed it 1st try with random people. No tactics, no healers, no tanks, just nuke nuke dodge nuke nuke dodge. i was ok its still level 50 so things might get extemely hard at level 80 right ? Well was i wrong level 80 was the same nuke nuke dodge nuke nuke dodge, just diffrent spells from bosses and other skin, but no tactic required realy.
Dungeons in GW2 are realy hardcore tough, but in a realy bad way. No Gaurdian ? have a good time wiping fellas. No warrior ? have a good time wiping fellas.
Not because they can tank so well, but due to their increased hitpoints and massive range dps.... You might be able to pull of it off with other classes, but you will wipe so much due to unlucky events that you cannot controll or survive like you can with Gaurdian... He is almost mandatory to complete most hardcore contend. He is the FoTM
Isnt this then the same as needing a tank or healer ? what changed then realy ? Nothing changed you just need a flavor of the month to complete hardest contend. And EQN how much i would give the benefit of all my doubts will just be the same stuff as in GW2.
TLDR
I learned alot from GW2, but not in a good way. I learned its a zergfest compared to tactical use of classes. I learned that Tanks and Healers are awesome, and would not wanne live without them in my games. I learned that GW2 can never change the way this game is played, unless they do a total overhaul and add healer and tank. I learned that you can spot skilled players in traditional mmo's much more then in GW2. I learned that you can make bosses much more advanced and difficult / challaging then in mmo's were you dont have tanks and healers. And most importandly, i learned i have alot more fun playing a healer or tank then a dps. GW2 and EQN will almost have idantical combat, we have already seen this on the presentation. And i cant stress enough how disapointed i am with a next gen mmo using this kind of system Pfew can we get on teamspeak next time ?
Going to admit i have far more expirience with WoW then EQ 1 and EQ 2. To make this easier i will compare EQN GW2 versus WoW as most people here have at least done a few dungeons or raids in WoW.
Traditional mmo
The Tank The Healer The DPS / Crowd Control
You got good and bads playing mmo's.
The Tank and his gaming / playing skill
You can see it the moment the 1st mob it pulled if you got that super tank that knows how to play ball and rape dungeons, some even mock you for trying to take aggro off them in playfull manner. They know wich skills to use, how to maintain aggro, how to pull bosses, how to use their offensive and defensive skills and time those perfecly.
But no tank good or bad will survive without The Healer no matter how skilled the Tank may be.
The Healer and his gaming / playing skill
Most of the succes in hardmore contend be it in dungeons or raids depend on this man or woman. 1 mistake and it is game over and you can start again.
Healer is one of those classes that have great responsibility, not only do then keep the tank alive, they also need to keep themselves and the DPS going. You can spot those wonderfull skilled healers reasly fast.
They know to react to big spikes of damage, AoE damamge or just /cast renew to conserve mana. People call them whack a mole stly of play, i call them hero's, people dont roll a class they hate, they roll that class they love and have fun playing.
The DPS / Crow Controller
In the old days of WoW they could make a diffrence between a 2 hour dungeon run or a 1 hour dungeon run. Everyone played dps t some point in their mmo carreer i asume and to be a good dps you have to use all those that are given to you.
A good dps will know his class, watch their suroundings and react to those. Healer under attack ? use CC to give the healer some breathing room and recover. Need AoE damage ? spam those AoE but watch the crowd contolled mob/s. Most dps is pretty straight forward. But you can also instandly see which guy fully understands his class and the random noob pressing one of the 40 skills. We all seen that warlock spamming drain life 50 minutes dont we ?
The Trinity gone - GW2
We applauded it, myself included. We loved it, we wanted it, we longed for it after the trinity for 2 decades or more.
No healers no tanks, just you and your skills versus the angry mob. I played a ranger in GW2 straight to level 80. I never grouped with anyone, i did shitloads of public events, The Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless, men o men when i first saw it i had a 190 bpm heartbeat. But something felt odd right from start to the end.
(And this is the point were it started to daunt in me)
I was just nuking and nuking with a group of people (70+?) at least. No strategy was talked, no healing needed, dont stand in the poo and you can faceroll trough it. No words were spoken during the whole encounter then a few words like AWMAHGOD EPIC EPIC !!! OMFG !!!! I was disapointed.........not by the scale of things !! that was realy breat taking, But the difficulty... it was to easy to slay a dragon so big so easy.
At that moment i rememberd a boss in WoW, Razorgore, a simple boss with a few eggs in the room, how hard could it be ? this would be a cakewalk with our A raid team. wrong, our guild (third best of the server) tried and tried and tried. day 1 - 5 hours of wipes day 2 - more countless hours of wipes week 1 - 1% many many times second week....our guild almost fell apart, people dodged our raids, dint log in, frustration commenced in our ranks.
We refused to read guides or ask the #1 guild of our server for info. So we tried and tried and finaly figured out how to beat Razorgore. Nerd screams of epicness, we slain the dragon.
This fight was a race against time, healers needed to play their best, tanks needed to pick up elite mobs, dps needed to not die and do MAX dps it required a gigantic amount of >>>teamwork<<< to down that boss. Iam not going into details how the tactical side of this fight was, as this post would be way to long, but i give you a guide if your interested about it http://www.wowwiki.com/Razorgore_the_Untamed
Fast forward to GW2 again and The Shatterer, we downed it 1st try with random people. No tactics, no healers, no tanks, just nuke nuke dodge nuke nuke dodge. i was ok its still level 50 so things might get extemely hard at level 80 right ? Well was i wrong level 80 was the same nuke nuke dodge nuke nuke dodge, just diffrent spells from bosses and other skin, but no tactic required realy.
Dungeons in GW2 are realy hardcore tough, but in a realy bad way. No Gaurdian ? have a good time wiping fellas. No warrior ? have a good time wiping fellas.
Not because they can tank so well, but due to their increased hitpoints and massive range dps.... You might be able to pull of it off with other classes, but you will wipe so much due to unlucky events that you cannot controll or survive like you can with Gaurdian... He is almost mandatory to complete most hardcore contend. He is the FoTM
TLDR
I learned alot from GW2, but not in a good way. I learned its a zergfest compared to tactical use of classes. I learned that Tanks and Healers are awesome, and would not wanne live without them in my games. I learned that GW2 can never change the way this game is played, unless they do a total overhaul and add healer and tank. I learned that you can spot skilled players in traditional mmo's much more then in GW2. I learned that you can make bosses much more advanced and difficult / challaging then in mmo's were you dont have tanks and healers. And most importandly, i learned i have alot more fun playing a healer or tank then a dps. GW2 and EQN will almost have idantical combat, we have already seen this on the presentation. And i cant stress enough how disapointed i am with a next gen mmo using this kind of system Pfew can we get on teamspeak next time ?
A post from someone who gets it.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I am tired of people raging about non-trinity just because ArenaNet are bad designers.
All they have to do to make non-DPS teams viable is make SOMETHING OTHER THAN DPS WORTH USING.
e.g.
I am going to play a mace/shield Warrior in GW2.
Oh, bosses have stacks of Defiant which make stuns/control useless.
WHY NOT GREATSWORD?
ArenaNet created a new trinity (control, support, damage) and at the same time negates the use of one role in their trinity. This is why you end up with teams of four damage Warriors and a support Guardian/Mesmer.
If mobs used player abilities (GW1 anyone?) and could heal and dodge and do generally do things that players could do full DPS teams would be less useful.
If EQ:N can pull off good AI then I do not think they will have a problem with players making full DPS teams. Imagine if your party came up against an enemy party that had lots of stuns. No longer would a full DPS party be useful. You might want to think about bringing a support character that has anti-stun skills. Or, how about you run into a party that is heavy on healing and protective magic. You then have to consider bringing a character that can stop the healing through control, and you might also want a character that can counter the protective magic with some sort of debuffs.
The fault is not the non-trinity; the fault is ArenaNet's terrible combat mechanics. So please stop saying that this type of system will not work simply because ONE company fails at implementing it properly.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
They said in the panel very clearly, THERE WILL BE Support/tanks, they just don't want to force you to have this claass for grouping or that class. They mention how they saw the damage it caused to guilds and players by requiring a specific class (IE healer/tank) to do content and how things fell apart when you didn't have them.
However this doesn't mean they are geting "Rid" of healing mechanics, or tanking, they are changing how the AI behaves and how things work.
Instead of hitting a "taunt" on a monster while your DPS kills it, it might figure out, hey "that guy is hurting me" and turn around to grab him and toss him away.
However as a TANK int eh game, you might "Build" your character toward controlling enemies, being able to PEEL them, knock them down/back, and other things.
Plus you could maybe block damage by actually standing in front of it?
You see the monster running toward your wizard? You run in front of him as the monster goes to hit him and put up your shield and block it.
This can ALL exist with "action " combat.
The problem is GW2's combat lacks so much basic depth or tactics.
Also another idea, but did anyone here play Dragon's Dogma? It was a great action adventure/rpg that had a variety of classes and ways to build your character and I thought it handled things quite well while still having action combat.
You had the nimble guy who could shoot arrows if you wanted or be able to physically CLIMB on giant monsters and stab them to bring them down. you had knights with shields that actually blocked things, etc.
The guy with the shield could even HELP people jump up (using his shield to "launch" them into the air).
Imagine if they did something similar with EQ2, allowing the different type sof characters to cooperate in terms of navigating the world and doing various things.
Think for example you're in a cave. Obviously it's dark, bu the wizard is able to cast a light spell for each person to give them light (if you have no torch or something of course).
Then you get to a giant chasm with a ledge far away. So the archer is able to shoot a rope-arrow to the other side to provide a way for the other people to climb across.
There are all kinds of neat things they could give to classes and mechanics to make them different without having to take away dps from them in order to do so.
They said in the panel very clearly, THERE WILL BE Support/tanks, they just don't want to force you to have this claass for grouping or that class. They mention how they saw the damage it caused to guilds and players by requiring a specific class (IE healer/tank) to do content and how things fell apart when you didn't have them.
However this doesn't mean they are geting "Rid" of healing mechanics, or tanking, they are changing how the AI behaves and how things work.
Instead of hitting a "taunt" on a monster while your DPS kills it, it might figure out, hey "that guy is hurting me" and turn around to grab him and toss him away.
However as a TANK int eh game, you might "Build" your character toward controlling enemies, being able to PEEL them, knock them down/back, and other things.
Plus you could maybe block damage by actually standing in front of it?
You see the monster running toward your wizard? You run in front of him as the monster goes to hit him and put up your shield and block it.
This can ALL exist with "action " combat.
The problem is GW2's combat lacks so much basic depth or tactics.
QFT
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Originally posted by CalmOceans Watching the Q&A panel made me realise, as I suspected, that this team has no solution for the inherent problems of action combat that GW2 has.
Someone asked the question how a lack of trinity, is going fix the issue of tanks and healers in the game, and how they are going to avoid the issues GW2 has. Their answer is simply:
"Everyone is DPS"
It's like they don't realise the issues with action combat or didn't anticipate these questions.
I think this game is severely underdeveloped and they have no idea whatsoever on how to fix gameplay issues when they copy the action combat system and remove trinity and aggro.
Let alone all the community and raid issues this system creates.
The fact they said earlier in the video that they think having to rely on other classes in a raid is a bad system, but don't offer an alternative except making everyone DPS and removing tanks and healers, is staggering.
It's completely mindboggling how this game that has more holes in their system than swiss cheese got "best MMORPG of E3"
Or maybe they realized that there are a large number of people who are tired of trinity combat. That's not an issue, that's supplying what their target audience wants.
I still think the biggest blunder was not capitalizing on ESO's delay. I thought ESO's delay and Smedley tricking me/others into thinking the game was gonna come out this year (The whole 'you'll get your hands on a version of the game this year and we dont mean a beta' quote) was a prime opportunity.
To me, all it is are ideas. Ideas that maybe Summer 2015 will actually be able to be played. I dont get why they were in a Blackbox if they arent even close to releasing, anyone who likes their ideas can steal them and the game won't be out for a year or 2.
Additionally: A lot of people (AKA, WildStar's hype) want a game just like WoW in a new setting. I don't always understand why "WoW clone" is a negative term. Sure, even I might be a little tired of those style of games, but I totally understand why people enjoy never feeling like they've beaten the game. They always have new raids to look forward to.
Comments
Well the holy trinity was part of table top D&D. But they had other classes such as the bards and rogues and tricksters and strikers and so on and so on. It is a extremely successful model and was has been used by MMORPG with mixed results. EQ had the bards and other support classes. But Games like wow began to do away with classes like enchanters because it's difficult to get a group together when you need different classes and people tend to play DPS either to show of or because they see it as an easy gig.
The gameplay videos looked like Diablo-style combat.
Diablo sux
They better get some testers going on this combat system so they can realize it's no good and start working on a better system. Otherwise, they can scratch their heads in a couple of years trying to figure out why their beloved games fizzled out after a few months after launch
No...D&D had roles yes defense,offense and support and characters were really different mixes of the 3 or at least 2 but could all at least dps.There was also no aggro mechanic in D&D the DM decided based on intelligence of the mob and his own discretion who the mob would go after.
SO no the Holy Trinity didn't exist then as we know it now.
Incorrect sir. Roles were part of the game, but the trinity was not. The trinity was a construct pretty much created by EQ and perpetuated by every game that followed. It was created to compensate for the lack of technology and programming in early MMOs.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Oh, Dullahan, keep beating that tired old drum. As I've posted on a couple of occasions, your fictitious assertions don't hold up under scrutiny. You should watch the Panels again. Then, watch them one more time and rinse and repeat until you understand what the Dev's have said. Just for you, I'm going to supply a link you should pay close attention to. Why? I will bullet the counter-points:
Ref: Class Panel part 2 see 13:30 and 19:18 (although the whole Panel is filled with great info)
Now, I understand that you won't really watch that. However, for the people that haven't seen the panels and who might believe your misinformation, I've supplied factual data.
Good post. Part of the issue here is that no one has seen the AI yet. I'm sure at some point we will get some demos about it so people can understand why aggro tanking won't work anymore. Those of us who have the capacity to think, can already imagine how that might work.
There are so many false assertions on these forums that it boggles the mind. Half of these people haven't watched a single minute of the livestream or the panels, and they are just making up their own scenarios. Either that or they are far too dumb to be concerned about playing an MMO. They should be out buying headgear.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Watched and rewatched.
Still see their hatred of any mechanics that might even potentially ostracize a player in any way. That means levels, that means "necessary roles" (which they specifically said they would NEVER have). Sorry you don't see it. Not going to go back through and provide you with quotes, because its obvious your mind is made up to "keep the faith" in SOE.
I, on the other hand, will not be defending them regardless of how many innovative features they add to the list. By all means though, continue to "fight the good fight." You would be a good PR guy for SOE; You down play all the most important points and highlight possible interpretations of vague statements remarkably well. Maybe you should submit an app.
sorry.. but the more you post.. the less believable you are... in your other post.. you said there are 4 class abilities.. that isn't true at all
there are 8.. four optional abilities based on a combination of wpn/class. each wpn does different things for each class...Then there are 4 pure class abilities.. based on what class you select. Building on that they give you the option of not using your class abilities and introducing 4 other class abilities. being able to mix abilities doesn't ruin interdependence.. The inability to adapt and think ruins group combat. cc abilities are much more believable than traditional taunt abilities. so if a tank has cc abilities that allow him to control the pace of the fight.. i don't see why he would no longer be a tank. as long as he can perform the basic protection of other party members function... he is still a tank. he may not be able to protect them 100%.. but protecting someone 50-70% is much better than not at all.
No, this game has too much unreleased information, and people speculate about things they saw in other games without knowing anything tangible about this game.
Not really. It's a bit like asking to see a match lit to see that it burns. We know how this plays out, it's been done before.
Not really, thats just like saying every hamburger is the same.. cause its a hamburger.
Well they are.
A burger made from ham.
They actually sound like they know the problem but yea, they don't quite sound like they have the answer yet.
I feel the answer to the problem is great encounter design. Give the mobs pack mentality, give the mobs skills that make the players actually think about how to beat them instead of just running through them (for instance, a support caster mob in the back, an anti-caster mob in the front, and a heavy CC mob that knocks players around) with big dps and you have yourself a game without a trinity but with structure when it comes to tackling the content.
This is not a game.
not even worth a response..
"Our Npcs arent stupid enough to attack the same person over and over and over again, while the rest of the party is hurting them - they will be able to figure out who is hurting them, and stop them from doing it."
My only response is, "Prove it"
I think a lot of this hate would be dispelled if you had a full party combat demo, instead you had 2 guys fighting 1 giant mob.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Going to admit i have far more expirience with WoW then EQ 1 and EQ 2.
To make this easier i will compare EQN GW2 versus WoW as most people here have at least done a few dungeons or raids in WoW.
Traditional mmo
The Tank
The Healer
The DPS / Crowd Control
You got good and bads playing mmo's.
The Tank and his gaming / playing skill
You can see it the moment the 1st mob it pulled if you got that super tank that knows how to play ball and rape dungeons, some even mock you for trying to take aggro off them in playfull manner.
They know wich skills to use, how to maintain aggro, how to pull bosses, how to use their offensive and defensive skills and time those perfecly.
But no tank good or bad will survive without The Healer no matter how skilled the Tank may be.
The Healer and his gaming / playing skill
Most of the succes in hardmore contend be it in dungeons or raids depend on this man or woman.
1 mistake and it is game over and you can start again.
Healer is one of those classes that have great responsibility, not only do then keep the tank alive, they also need to keep themselves and the DPS going.
You can spot those wonderfull skilled healers reasly fast.
They know to react to big spikes of damage, AoE damamge or just /cast renew to conserve mana.
People call them whack a mole stly of play, i call them hero's, people dont roll a class they hate, they roll that class they love and have fun playing.
The DPS / Crow Controller
In the old days of WoW they could make a diffrence between a 2 hour dungeon run or a 1 hour dungeon run.
Everyone played dps t some point in their mmo carreer i asume and to be a good dps you have to use all those that are given to you.
A good dps will know his class, watch their suroundings and react to those.
Healer under attack ? use CC to give the healer some breathing room and recover.
Need AoE damage ? spam those AoE but watch the crowd contolled mob/s.
Most dps is pretty straight forward.
But you can also instandly see which guy fully understands his class and the random noob pressing one of the 40 skills.
We all seen that warlock spamming drain life 50 minutes dont we ?
The Trinity gone - GW2
We applauded it, myself included.
We loved it, we wanted it, we longed for it after the trinity for 2 decades or more.
No healers no tanks, just you and your skills versus the angry mob.
I played a ranger in GW2 straight to level 80.
I never grouped with anyone, i did shitloads of public events, The Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless, men o men when i first saw it i had a 190 bpm heartbeat.
But something felt odd right from start to the end.
(And this is the point were it started to daunt in me)
I was just nuking and nuking with a group of people (70+?) at least.
No strategy was talked, no healing needed, dont stand in the poo and you can faceroll trough it.
No words were spoken during the whole encounter then a few words like AWMAHGOD EPIC EPIC !!! OMFG !!!!
I was disapointed.........not by the scale of things !! that was realy breat taking,
But the difficulty... it was to easy to slay a dragon so big so easy.
At that moment i rememberd a boss in WoW, Razorgore, a simple boss with a few eggs in the room, how hard could it be ? this would be a cakewalk with our A raid team.
wrong, our guild (third best of the server) tried and tried and tried.
day 1 - 5 hours of wipes
day 2 - more countless hours of wipes
week 1 - 1% many many times
second week....our guild almost fell apart, people dodged our raids, dint log in, frustration commenced in our ranks.
We refused to read guides or ask the #1 guild of our server for info.
So we tried and tried and finaly figured out how to beat Razorgore.
Nerd screams of epicness, we slain the dragon.
This fight was a race against time, healers needed to play their best, tanks needed to pick up elite mobs, dps needed to not die and do MAX dps it required a gigantic amount of >>>teamwork<<< to down that boss.
Iam not going into details how the tactical side of this fight was, as this post would be way to long, but i give you a guide if your interested about it
http://www.wowwiki.com/Razorgore_the_Untamed
Fast forward to GW2 again and The Shatterer, we downed it 1st try with random people.
No tactics, no healers, no tanks, just nuke nuke dodge nuke nuke dodge.
i was ok its still level 50 so things might get extemely hard at level 80 right ?
Well was i wrong
level 80 was the same nuke nuke dodge nuke nuke dodge, just diffrent spells from bosses and other skin, but no tactic required realy.
Dungeons in GW2 are realy hardcore tough, but in a realy bad way.
No Gaurdian ? have a good time wiping fellas.
No warrior ? have a good time wiping fellas.
Not because they can tank so well, but due to their increased hitpoints and massive range dps....
You might be able to pull of it off with other classes, but you will wipe so much due to unlucky events that you cannot controll or survive like you can with Gaurdian...
He is almost mandatory to complete most hardcore contend.
He is the FoTM
Isnt this then the same as needing a tank or healer ? what changed then realy ?
Nothing changed you just need a flavor of the month to complete hardest contend.
And EQN how much i would give the benefit of all my doubts will just be the same stuff as in GW2.
TLDR
I learned alot from GW2, but not in a good way.
I learned its a zergfest compared to tactical use of classes.
I learned that Tanks and Healers are awesome, and would not wanne live without them in my games.
I learned that GW2 can never change the way this game is played, unless they do a total overhaul and add healer and tank.
I learned that you can spot skilled players in traditional mmo's much more then in GW2.
I learned that you can make bosses much more advanced and difficult / challaging then in mmo's were you dont have tanks and healers.
And most importandly, i learned i have alot more fun playing a healer or tank then a dps.
GW2 and EQN will almost have idantical combat, we have already seen this on the presentation.
And i cant stress enough how disapointed i am with a next gen mmo using this kind of system
Pfew can we get on teamspeak next time ?
A post from someone who gets it.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
LOL
I am tired of people raging about non-trinity just because ArenaNet are bad designers.
All they have to do to make non-DPS teams viable is make SOMETHING OTHER THAN DPS WORTH USING.
e.g.
I am going to play a mace/shield Warrior in GW2.
Oh, bosses have stacks of Defiant which make stuns/control useless.
WHY NOT GREATSWORD?
ArenaNet created a new trinity (control, support, damage) and at the same time negates the use of one role in their trinity. This is why you end up with teams of four damage Warriors and a support Guardian/Mesmer.
If mobs used player abilities (GW1 anyone?) and could heal and dodge and do generally do things that players could do full DPS teams would be less useful.
If EQ:N can pull off good AI then I do not think they will have a problem with players making full DPS teams. Imagine if your party came up against an enemy party that had lots of stuns. No longer would a full DPS party be useful. You might want to think about bringing a support character that has anti-stun skills. Or, how about you run into a party that is heavy on healing and protective magic. You then have to consider bringing a character that can stop the healing through control, and you might also want a character that can counter the protective magic with some sort of debuffs.
The fault is not the non-trinity; the fault is ArenaNet's terrible combat mechanics. So please stop saying that this type of system will not work simply because ONE company fails at implementing it properly.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Why are people so hung up on this.
They said in the panel very clearly, THERE WILL BE Support/tanks, they just don't want to force you to have this claass for grouping or that class. They mention how they saw the damage it caused to guilds and players by requiring a specific class (IE healer/tank) to do content and how things fell apart when you didn't have them.
However this doesn't mean they are geting "Rid" of healing mechanics, or tanking, they are changing how the AI behaves and how things work.
Instead of hitting a "taunt" on a monster while your DPS kills it, it might figure out, hey "that guy is hurting me" and turn around to grab him and toss him away.
However as a TANK int eh game, you might "Build" your character toward controlling enemies, being able to PEEL them, knock them down/back, and other things.
Plus you could maybe block damage by actually standing in front of it?
You see the monster running toward your wizard? You run in front of him as the monster goes to hit him and put up your shield and block it.
This can ALL exist with "action " combat.
The problem is GW2's combat lacks so much basic depth or tactics.
Also another idea, but did anyone here play Dragon's Dogma? It was a great action adventure/rpg that had a variety of classes and ways to build your character and I thought it handled things quite well while still having action combat.
You had the nimble guy who could shoot arrows if you wanted or be able to physically CLIMB on giant monsters and stab them to bring them down. you had knights with shields that actually blocked things, etc.
The guy with the shield could even HELP people jump up (using his shield to "launch" them into the air).
Imagine if they did something similar with EQ2, allowing the different type sof characters to cooperate in terms of navigating the world and doing various things.
Think for example you're in a cave. Obviously it's dark, bu the wizard is able to cast a light spell for each person to give them light (if you have no torch or something of course).
Then you get to a giant chasm with a ledge far away. So the archer is able to shoot a rope-arrow to the other side to provide a way for the other people to climb across.
There are all kinds of neat things they could give to classes and mechanics to make them different without having to take away dps from them in order to do so.
QFT
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I still think the biggest blunder was not capitalizing on ESO's delay. I thought ESO's delay and Smedley tricking me/others into thinking the game was gonna come out this year (The whole 'you'll get your hands on a version of the game this year and we dont mean a beta' quote) was a prime opportunity.
To me, all it is are ideas. Ideas that maybe Summer 2015 will actually be able to be played. I dont get why they were in a Blackbox if they arent even close to releasing, anyone who likes their ideas can steal them and the game won't be out for a year or 2.
Additionally: A lot of people (AKA, WildStar's hype) want a game just like WoW in a new setting. I don't always understand why "WoW clone" is a negative term. Sure, even I might be a little tired of those style of games, but I totally understand why people enjoy never feeling like they've beaten the game. They always have new raids to look forward to.