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For those upset by the lack of trinity have you ever thought of....

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  • NetSageNetSage Lake Geneva, WIPosts: 1,040Member Uncommon
    It's easy to say anything.  Like I could say I developed the greatest MMO ever but I'm not going to show you right now.  Which is basically what they're saying :P.  See my point?
  • AzothAzoth montreal, QCPosts: 720Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Daaken

    .......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?

     

    Can you show us a vid of all this smart AI in EQN, making such a claim must mean you can back it up with vids.

    I'll wait here while you go find them, thanks.image

    I'll not bring myself down to your level so I'll just assume you have no intention to honestly debate or you'd know the game is being designed with Storybricks and this whole weekend the panels and the devs in those panels have repeatedly stated the game is featuring a true AI system the likes that's never been done.  Since you refuse to take my or their words for what they are, I'll go ahead and place you on block and ignore your attempts in baiting me into a confrontation.  Good bye sir!

    Can you explain to us what a true smart AI could do ?

  • TalmienTalmien Hopewell, NJPosts: 78Member
    Story Bricks has nothing to do with Combat AI. Story Bricks is all about how the monsters interact with the world, where will they go? what will they do? its there to make the world come alive and be dynamic. Combat AI has nothing to do with that, and I'm sure we'll see the same scripted style fights we've seen in any other game. All you have to do is look at the video of those two fighting the golem, it move towards you and cast some spells that you dodge, very basic.
  • blastermasterblastermaster Cap-aux-Meules, QCPosts: 149Member Uncommon

    What I got from their emergent AI is not really related to combat but more to behavior. Mobs won't stay in"fields", waiting to be farmed, only agroing players that walk close to their bubbles,etc.  This does'nt mean that they will have smarter combat tactics. One could hope, but I think it will be mlre of the same on that aspect.  As for most other subject on that game.. wait and see!

     

  • KingsFieldKingsField Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 37Member
    SOE probably wants to make the game very casual friendly and history has shown that removing the trinity has this effect. Since the dungeons are going to be randomly generated, it's pretty obvious that they're going for the Diablo feeling where everyone can zerg a dungeon regardless of how badly they play their class. It's not like anyone notices since the lack of defined roles makes it hard to tell if everyone is doing their job.
  • syntax42syntax42 Columbus, OHPosts: 1,305Member Uncommon

    We won't see truly intelligent AI until computers are able to make decisions.  For now, they can only follow written code which is either predictable or has a random element, either of which makes the AI unintelligent.  

    That said, I believe it is possible to make AI which does not follow the standard trinity, and do it well.  For example, people react to pain by withdrawing from it.  The AI could be programmed to attack the caster, but run from the wall of fire the caster puts in front of them.  At that point, the AI would switch targets to the tank who is feigning a limp, which makes it look like an easy target.  Combining more intelligent abilities with complex AI can make it feel smarter while changing the landscape of the trinity.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,212Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Daaken

    .......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?

     

    Can you show us a vid of all this smart AI in EQN, making such a claim must mean you can back it up with vids.

    I'll wait here while you go find them, thanks.image

    I'll not bring myself down to your level so I'll just assume you have no intention to honestly debate or you'd know the game is being designed with Storybricks and this whole weekend the panels and the devs in those panels have repeatedly stated the game is featuring a true AI system the likes that's never been done.  Since you refuse to take my or their words for what they are, I'll go ahead and place you on block and ignore your attempts in baiting me into a confrontation.  Good bye sir!

    Can you explain to us what a true smart AI could do ?

    If SOE wanted to make players cry they could program trash mob groups to focus fire, break player line of sight when attacked, and use crowd control at the appropriate times. They won't though.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • munx4555munx4555 moiPosts: 169Member
    Originally posted by Daaken

    .......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?

     

    They never said their getting rid of roles, the panel even explicitly said that if you enjoy playing a certain way, you can continue to play that way and even be rewarded just the same as anyone else.  This isn't GW2, where you have dumb AI, the mobs will target intelligently and a Trinity based system makes no sense in the grand scheme of a dynamic and smart world.  Story Bricks will revolutionize the genre because of this.

     Exactly how would the trinity be less important with smarter AI?

    Gw2 also didnt get rid of the roles, the problem is SoE clearly said healer and tanks wont be needed, which means the content will be designed so that you can clear it without those, this makes both healer and tanks useless, and we will have another silly entirely dps focused game like gw2.

    Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of the trinity, however if you are gonna move away from the trinity you need to have a sensible replacement for it, and this sure as hell does not sound like it will be.

    Also the whole "scaleing" bosses raises a big red flag, they can't really scale up the bosses damage since they are designed it so you wont need healers or tanks, which means you'll see weakass bosses with a ton of hp like in gw2, possibly with some idiotic cheap oneshot mechanisms.

    Also the whole "Oh, but you can still play tank or healer" arguement is flawed, if you played gw2 you will know that you get flamed for being a hindrance to your team by playing as either role, when the content is designed for dps dps and more dps.

    Sorry but I fail to see how the Holy Dpsity is any better then the holy Trinity.

     

  • bobfishbobfish SouthamptonPosts: 1,688Member

    Raid have to be scripted, smart AI is simply emulating human behavior. If people wanted that, they'd PvP, not PvE raid.

     

    AI can only do so much, events... need structure to be awesome.

  • FonclFoncl UppsalaPosts: 197Member
    Removing the trinitry and limiting the number of skills to 8 has me worried that the combat will be very shallow and zergy, like many others have said. I'm all for developers trying different things but I'll remain sceptical about the combat until they they can convince me that it will have depth and complexity. In group situations there needs to be challenging content that requires alot of teamwork to overcome, for me to be interested.
  • BrooksTechBrooksTech Canton, ILPosts: 163Member
    For me, no trinity = no thanks. 
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,081Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Daaken

    .......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?

     

    Can you show us a vid of all this smart AI in EQN, making such a claim must mean you can back it up with vids.

    I'll wait here while you go find them, thanks.image

    I'll not bring myself down to your level so I'll just assume you have no intention to honestly debate or you'd know the game is being designed with Storybricks and this whole weekend the panels and the devs in those panels have repeatedly stated the game is featuring a true AI system the likes that's never been done.  Since you refuse to take my or their words for what they are, I'll go ahead and place you on block and ignore your attempts in baiting me into a confrontation.  Good bye sir!

    Can you explain to us what a true smart AI could do ?

    Your not allowed to ask that because he will accuse you of baiting.

    Fact is he can't show, explain or even back up his "first smart AI system in the history of the genre" claim, it's just based on a "the devs said so" line.

    Don't get me wrong, i'm an EQ vet but until i see all this actually working i'm not going to start proclaiming anything, the same op did that with GW2.

    As to smart AI, well i'll name one game that really does have it: Ryzom.

    You should try it sometime OP, oh and while you are there check out Ryzom Core world editor, hmmm Landmark 1.0.

     

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  • Riposte.ThisRiposte.This Toronto, ONPosts: 192Member
    The part that sucks the most is the abilities are like GW2, that's a huge issue. Swapping attacks with what weapons you carry is just not something I think is cool or innovative. I think it actually fails quite hard.

    Killing dragons is my shit

  • RogoshRogosh MIPosts: 182Member Uncommon
    Until they change their toon and allow clear set roles this game is doomed to failure. Eq is tanking, dps, crowd control, healing and pulling without it this game will be some button spam aoe trash clearing love fest(hate fest if you are me).

    So no thanks and screw you mmorpg and tentonhammer for selling us this load of crap, bext of e3 my arse.

    "Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member

    I hope there is a better AI in this game than am h we have seen in the past. Lets hope story bricks works like its advertised to.

    as for lack of trinity or roles... We still really are not sure of this.. Why this debate keeps happening  I don't know. I've seen  the interviews over at eqhammer, and devs said absolutely you ca build your character towards different rolls, or be a truist class. That some classes were also geared more to certain roles.

    so I am going to take this with the whole lets wait and see more attitude. Instead of latching onto rumors and non proven arguments.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,081Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Riposte.This
    The part that sucks the most is the abilities are like GW2, that's a huge issue. Swapping attacks with what weapons you carry is just not something I think is cool or innovative. I think it actually fails quite hard.

    Yeah i would have liked the ArcheAge system of of using any weapon and wearing any armour plus a combination of 120 class choices.

    Info http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/572/view/forums/post/5805359#5805359

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  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member
     

    This is true, smart AI is the death of the holy trinity, because trinity means exploiting a weak AI. I would even call it bug-using.

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 
    Who would be your target priority the guy in heavy amour that is insulting you mother nonstop but does not really harm you or the guy in the back who is roasting you with fireballs.

    I also find it ridiculous to picture a armored knight jumping up and down and shouting "Hey dragon, look at me! You suck!". 


    Maybe it could be designed in a way that the orcs fall for the tanking trick the first time, but then they adapt and the players need to come up with something else. There could be differed levels of AI, a giant amoeba would always fall for the same old trick.
     
    I would change the tanking into a bodyguard mechanic, in such a way that a fighter could ward of hits from one or two other characters that are right next o him.

     
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Read the mmorpg.com coverage of EQNEXT and they have mentioned clearly that there is going to be 'trinity' in game.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • MontaronxMontaronx SchiedamPosts: 260Member Uncommon

    if tanking becomes obsolete in this game, why even wear armor and or a shield as a warrior? it makes no sense what so ever . just dps it down as quick as you can and move to the next mob.

     

    I think SOE still have some tricks up their sleeves they will reveal soon

     

     

    image

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mightyking
    Originally posted by Azoth

    Better AI doesn't mean that role would not work. You won't see much better than from the other games, they won't just auto target the one guy that is healing, it will be an agro game like all the rest. We might see improved behavior, calling for help and running when getting low on health (which isn't new) but I am pretty sure it won't be much more than that.

    It's not like we can give npc the brain capacity of humans. It all have to be scripted. Strict role and challenging mobs is a great way to improve community and team play. If you can do it all and faceroll thru the content it will just be another solo game that most people will quit after a month.

    Where exactly have you seen that this so-called "improved AI" has improved the community and team play? My experience tells me exactly the opposite.

    Guild wars 2 has pretty much advertised their game as having no trinity. World content sees an every man for themselves mentality: try to hit the boss, hope you stay alive.

    Rift having multi classes where anyone can pretty much play anything, sees world content zerg fests. Tank-healer concept is usually not present because you just join public groups, and you'd be lucky to find a tank and healer taking responsibility for such roles. World content sees again everyone for themselves.

    Neither of these two games, at least in my opinion, has improved community and team play. Ergo, those who like to play support roles, tanking, healing, CC, are looked upon when mechanics just require dps.

    For one that has played Rift on and off since beta I can say that even in world events there are tank and especially healing roles being used. It is a HUGE zerg-fest, but if no one took on the healing roles (especially) during the events it would make for a tough fight on the bigger bosses.

     

    I am all for "smarter" AI and even unpredictable AI. The problem with raids and most pve in general in MMOs is it gets to be the same thing over and over. When you fight a boss you know that at certain points in the fight they are going to use a certain spell or ability. Towards the end of my WoW days I went to mostly PvP fighting, because at least it wasn't the same fights over and over.

    image

  • RaassRaass Nashville, TNPosts: 21Member
    I'll be playing this game for sure, love everything I have seen so far.
  • thinlizzythinlizzy perthPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by Sengi
     

    This is true, smart AI is the death of the holy trinity, because trinity means exploiting a weak AI. I would even call it bug-using.

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 
    Who would be your target priority the guy in heavy amour that is insulting you mother nonstop but does not really harm you or the guy in the back who is roasting you with fireballs.

    I also find it ridiculous to picture a armored knight jumping up and down and shouting "Hey dragon, look at me! You suck!". 


    Maybe it could be designed in a way that the orcs fall for the tanking trick the first time, but then they adapt and the players need to come up with something else. There could be differed levels of AI, a giant amoeba would always fall for the same old trick.
     
    I would change the tanking into a bodyguard mechanic, in such a way that a fighter could ward of hits from one or two other characters that are right next o him.

     

    Tanking in Warhammer online  works perfectly in PvP because the class designers had a brain.

    Its the failed RAID based trinity that does not stack up to an intelligent opponent.

    Dont diss the trinity because EQ WoW and games like it gave tanks agro generation and taunt as a way to hold brainless mobs

    Give the tanks proper tools to do the job and even a smart player has to confront the tank.

    DO it right and tanks DONT need to be DPS monsters and DONT need to be able to charge (how the %$#@ did anyone think the heaviest armored unit should be the fastest)

  • GoldmundGoldmund Nixa, MOPosts: 8Member
    Originally posted by Sengi
     

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 

     

    I see people throwing this argument around a lot.  In EQ2 pvp though, tanking is a viable role because taunts actually do force your enemy to target you.  You can't lock their target onto you permanently unless your enemy is really careless and not paying attention, but when timed well, it's quite effective and creates much more interesting fights, in my opinion.

  • bansanbansan blah city, MOPosts: 367Member

    Do a little critical thinking.  When the OP says "smart" AI, he's not talking about some super duper coding to will make mobs act like real animals.

    It has been done, and is as simple as making a mob not stupid enough stand there and attack a guy that hits him for 1 damage, while 9 other guys are putting holes in him with laser beams.  You've all seen it before, and that not so smart AI already would blow the trinity out of the water.  Smart AI is not the problem.

    The problem is that you can't even have not so smart AI with the trinity.  If you want the trinity, it is not possible to have smart AI.

  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member
    Originally posted by thinlizzy
    Originally posted by Sengi
     

    This is true, smart AI is the death of the holy trinity, because trinity means exploiting a weak AI. I would even call it bug-using.

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 
    Who would be your target priority the guy in heavy amour that is insulting you mother nonstop but does not really harm you or the guy in the back who is roasting you with fireballs.

    I also find it ridiculous to picture a armored knight jumping up and down and shouting "Hey dragon, look at me! You suck!". 


    Maybe it could be designed in a way that the orcs fall for the tanking trick the first time, but then they adapt and the players need to come up with something else. There could be differed levels of AI, a giant amoeba would always fall for the same old trick.
     
    I would change the tanking into a bodyguard mechanic, in such a way that a fighter could ward of hits from one or two other characters that are right next o him.

     

    Tanking in Warhammer online  works perfectly in PvP because the class designers had a brain.

    Its the failed RAID based trinity that does not stack up to an intelligent opponent.

    Dont diss the trinity because EQ WoW and games like it gave tanks agro generation and taunt as a way to hold brainless mobs

    Give the tanks proper tools to do the job and even a smart player has to confront the tank.

    DO it right and tanks DONT need to be DPS monsters and DONT need to be able to charge (how the %$#@ did anyone think the heaviest armored unit should be the fastest)

     
    Ok, the trinity in WoW was the one I was talking about. I haven't played Warhammer Online. What did It do differently. How can tanking work in PvP? Does the tank have a lot of CC? But someone who provides CC is not really a tank in my opinion. 
     
    Aren't taunts the central point of the whole trinity? If the tank can't hold aggro, the whole thing breaks down.  
     
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