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For those upset by the lack of trinity have you ever thought of....

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  • syntax42syntax42 Member UncommonPosts: 1,378

    We won't see truly intelligent AI until computers are able to make decisions.  For now, they can only follow written code which is either predictable or has a random element, either of which makes the AI unintelligent.  

    That said, I believe it is possible to make AI which does not follow the standard trinity, and do it well.  For example, people react to pain by withdrawing from it.  The AI could be programmed to attack the caster, but run from the wall of fire the caster puts in front of them.  At that point, the AI would switch targets to the tank who is feigning a limp, which makes it look like an easy target.  Combining more intelligent abilities with complex AI can make it feel smarter while changing the landscape of the trinity.

  • munx4555munx4555 Member Posts: 169
    Originally posted by Daaken

    .......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?

     

    They never said their getting rid of roles, the panel even explicitly said that if you enjoy playing a certain way, you can continue to play that way and even be rewarded just the same as anyone else.  This isn't GW2, where you have dumb AI, the mobs will target intelligently and a Trinity based system makes no sense in the grand scheme of a dynamic and smart world.  Story Bricks will revolutionize the genre because of this.

     Exactly how would the trinity be less important with smarter AI?

    Gw2 also didnt get rid of the roles, the problem is SoE clearly said healer and tanks wont be needed, which means the content will be designed so that you can clear it without those, this makes both healer and tanks useless, and we will have another silly entirely dps focused game like gw2.

    Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of the trinity, however if you are gonna move away from the trinity you need to have a sensible replacement for it, and this sure as hell does not sound like it will be.

    Also the whole "scaleing" bosses raises a big red flag, they can't really scale up the bosses damage since they are designed it so you wont need healers or tanks, which means you'll see weakass bosses with a ton of hp like in gw2, possibly with some idiotic cheap oneshot mechanisms.

    Also the whole "Oh, but you can still play tank or healer" arguement is flawed, if you played gw2 you will know that you get flamed for being a hindrance to your team by playing as either role, when the content is designed for dps dps and more dps.

    Sorry but I fail to see how the Holy Dpsity is any better then the holy Trinity.

     

  • bobfishbobfish Member UncommonPosts: 1,679

    Raid have to be scripted, smart AI is simply emulating human behavior. If people wanted that, they'd PvP, not PvE raid.

     

    AI can only do so much, events... need structure to be awesome.

  • FonclFoncl Member UncommonPosts: 347
    Removing the trinitry and limiting the number of skills to 8 has me worried that the combat will be very shallow and zergy, like many others have said. I'm all for developers trying different things but I'll remain sceptical about the combat until they they can convince me that it will have depth and complexity. In group situations there needs to be challenging content that requires alot of teamwork to overcome, for me to be interested.
  • BrooksTechBrooksTech Member Posts: 163
    For me, no trinity = no thanks. 
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,466
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by Daaken
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Daaken

    .......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?

     

    Can you show us a vid of all this smart AI in EQN, making such a claim must mean you can back it up with vids.

    I'll wait here while you go find them, thanks.image

    I'll not bring myself down to your level so I'll just assume you have no intention to honestly debate or you'd know the game is being designed with Storybricks and this whole weekend the panels and the devs in those panels have repeatedly stated the game is featuring a true AI system the likes that's never been done.  Since you refuse to take my or their words for what they are, I'll go ahead and place you on block and ignore your attempts in baiting me into a confrontation.  Good bye sir!

    Can you explain to us what a true smart AI could do ?

    Your not allowed to ask that because he will accuse you of baiting.

    Fact is he can't show, explain or even back up his "first smart AI system in the history of the genre" claim, it's just based on a "the devs said so" line.

    Don't get me wrong, i'm an EQ vet but until i see all this actually working i'm not going to start proclaiming anything, the same op did that with GW2.

    As to smart AI, well i'll name one game that really does have it: Ryzom.

    You should try it sometime OP, oh and while you are there check out Ryzom Core world editor, hmmm Landmark 1.0.

     




  • Riposte.ThisRiposte.This Member Posts: 192
    The part that sucks the most is the abilities are like GW2, that's a huge issue. Swapping attacks with what weapons you carry is just not something I think is cool or innovative. I think it actually fails quite hard.

    Killing dragons is my shit

  • RogoshRogosh Member UncommonPosts: 208
    Until they change their toon and allow clear set roles this game is doomed to failure. Eq is tanking, dps, crowd control, healing and pulling without it this game will be some button spam aoe trash clearing love fest(hate fest if you are me).

    So no thanks and screw you mmorpg and tentonhammer for selling us this load of crap, bext of e3 my arse.

    "Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Member UncommonPosts: 1,117

    I hope there is a better AI in this game than am h we have seen in the past. Lets hope story bricks works like its advertised to.

    as for lack of trinity or roles... We still really are not sure of this.. Why this debate keeps happening  I don't know. I've seen  the interviews over at eqhammer, and devs said absolutely you ca build your character towards different rolls, or be a truist class. That some classes were also geared more to certain roles.

    so I am going to take this with the whole lets wait and see more attitude. Instead of latching onto rumors and non proven arguments.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,466
    Originally posted by Riposte.This
    The part that sucks the most is the abilities are like GW2, that's a huge issue. Swapping attacks with what weapons you carry is just not something I think is cool or innovative. I think it actually fails quite hard.

    Yeah i would have liked the ArcheAge system of of using any weapon and wearing any armour plus a combination of 120 class choices.

    Info http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/572/view/forums/post/5805359#5805359




  • SengiSengi Member CommonPosts: 350
     

    This is true, smart AI is the death of the holy trinity, because trinity means exploiting a weak AI. I would even call it bug-using.

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 
    Who would be your target priority the guy in heavy amour that is insulting you mother nonstop but does not really harm you or the guy in the back who is roasting you with fireballs.

    I also find it ridiculous to picture a armored knight jumping up and down and shouting "Hey dragon, look at me! You suck!". 


    Maybe it could be designed in a way that the orcs fall for the tanking trick the first time, but then they adapt and the players need to come up with something else. There could be differed levels of AI, a giant amoeba would always fall for the same old trick.
     
    I would change the tanking into a bodyguard mechanic, in such a way that a fighter could ward of hits from one or two other characters that are right next o him.

     
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Read the mmorpg.com coverage of EQNEXT and they have mentioned clearly that there is going to be 'trinity' in game.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • MontaronxMontaronx Member UncommonPosts: 273

    if tanking becomes obsolete in this game, why even wear armor and or a shield as a warrior? it makes no sense what so ever . just dps it down as quick as you can and move to the next mob.

     

    I think SOE still have some tricks up their sleeves they will reveal soon

     

     

    image

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Member UncommonPosts: 759
    Originally posted by Mightyking
    Originally posted by Azoth

    Better AI doesn't mean that role would not work. You won't see much better than from the other games, they won't just auto target the one guy that is healing, it will be an agro game like all the rest. We might see improved behavior, calling for help and running when getting low on health (which isn't new) but I am pretty sure it won't be much more than that.

    It's not like we can give npc the brain capacity of humans. It all have to be scripted. Strict role and challenging mobs is a great way to improve community and team play. If you can do it all and faceroll thru the content it will just be another solo game that most people will quit after a month.

    Where exactly have you seen that this so-called "improved AI" has improved the community and team play? My experience tells me exactly the opposite.

    Guild wars 2 has pretty much advertised their game as having no trinity. World content sees an every man for themselves mentality: try to hit the boss, hope you stay alive.

    Rift having multi classes where anyone can pretty much play anything, sees world content zerg fests. Tank-healer concept is usually not present because you just join public groups, and you'd be lucky to find a tank and healer taking responsibility for such roles. World content sees again everyone for themselves.

    Neither of these two games, at least in my opinion, has improved community and team play. Ergo, those who like to play support roles, tanking, healing, CC, are looked upon when mechanics just require dps.

    For one that has played Rift on and off since beta I can say that even in world events there are tank and especially healing roles being used. It is a HUGE zerg-fest, but if no one took on the healing roles (especially) during the events it would make for a tough fight on the bigger bosses.

     

    I am all for "smarter" AI and even unpredictable AI. The problem with raids and most pve in general in MMOs is it gets to be the same thing over and over. When you fight a boss you know that at certain points in the fight they are going to use a certain spell or ability. Towards the end of my WoW days I went to mostly PvP fighting, because at least it wasn't the same fights over and over.


  • RaassRaass Member UncommonPosts: 24
    I'll be playing this game for sure, love everything I have seen so far.
  • thinlizzythinlizzy Member Posts: 68
    Originally posted by Sengi
     

    This is true, smart AI is the death of the holy trinity, because trinity means exploiting a weak AI. I would even call it bug-using.

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 
    Who would be your target priority the guy in heavy amour that is insulting you mother nonstop but does not really harm you or the guy in the back who is roasting you with fireballs.

    I also find it ridiculous to picture a armored knight jumping up and down and shouting "Hey dragon, look at me! You suck!". 


    Maybe it could be designed in a way that the orcs fall for the tanking trick the first time, but then they adapt and the players need to come up with something else. There could be differed levels of AI, a giant amoeba would always fall for the same old trick.
     
    I would change the tanking into a bodyguard mechanic, in such a way that a fighter could ward of hits from one or two other characters that are right next o him.

     

    Tanking in Warhammer online  works perfectly in PvP because the class designers had a brain.

    Its the failed RAID based trinity that does not stack up to an intelligent opponent.

    Dont diss the trinity because EQ WoW and games like it gave tanks agro generation and taunt as a way to hold brainless mobs

    Give the tanks proper tools to do the job and even a smart player has to confront the tank.

    DO it right and tanks DONT need to be DPS monsters and DONT need to be able to charge (how the %$#@ did anyone think the heaviest armored unit should be the fastest)

  • GoldmundGoldmund Member Posts: 8
    Originally posted by Sengi
     

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 

     

    I see people throwing this argument around a lot.  In EQ2 pvp though, tanking is a viable role because taunts actually do force your enemy to target you.  You can't lock their target onto you permanently unless your enemy is really careless and not paying attention, but when timed well, it's quite effective and creates much more interesting fights, in my opinion.

  • bansanbansan Member Posts: 367

    Do a little critical thinking.  When the OP says "smart" AI, he's not talking about some super duper coding to will make mobs act like real animals.

    It has been done, and is as simple as making a mob not stupid enough stand there and attack a guy that hits him for 1 damage, while 9 other guys are putting holes in him with laser beams.  You've all seen it before, and that not so smart AI already would blow the trinity out of the water.  Smart AI is not the problem.

    The problem is that you can't even have not so smart AI with the trinity.  If you want the trinity, it is not possible to have smart AI.

  • SengiSengi Member CommonPosts: 350
    Originally posted by thinlizzy
    Originally posted by Sengi
     

    This is true, smart AI is the death of the holy trinity, because trinity means exploiting a weak AI. I would even call it bug-using.

    Just imagine when does tanking ever work in PVP? Only when the opponent doesn't know what he's doing. 
    Who would be your target priority the guy in heavy amour that is insulting you mother nonstop but does not really harm you or the guy in the back who is roasting you with fireballs.

    I also find it ridiculous to picture a armored knight jumping up and down and shouting "Hey dragon, look at me! You suck!". 


    Maybe it could be designed in a way that the orcs fall for the tanking trick the first time, but then they adapt and the players need to come up with something else. There could be differed levels of AI, a giant amoeba would always fall for the same old trick.
     
    I would change the tanking into a bodyguard mechanic, in such a way that a fighter could ward of hits from one or two other characters that are right next o him.

     

    Tanking in Warhammer online  works perfectly in PvP because the class designers had a brain.

    Its the failed RAID based trinity that does not stack up to an intelligent opponent.

    Dont diss the trinity because EQ WoW and games like it gave tanks agro generation and taunt as a way to hold brainless mobs

    Give the tanks proper tools to do the job and even a smart player has to confront the tank.

    DO it right and tanks DONT need to be DPS monsters and DONT need to be able to charge (how the %$#@ did anyone think the heaviest armored unit should be the fastest)

     
    Ok, the trinity in WoW was the one I was talking about. I haven't played Warhammer Online. What did It do differently. How can tanking work in PvP? Does the tank have a lot of CC? But someone who provides CC is not really a tank in my opinion. 
     
    Aren't taunts the central point of the whole trinity? If the tank can't hold aggro, the whole thing breaks down.  
     
  • thinlizzythinlizzy Member Posts: 68
    Originally posted by Sengi
     
     
    Ok, the trinity in WoW was the one I was talking about. I haven't played Warhammer Online. What did It do differently. How can tanking work in PvP? Does the tank have a lot of CC? But someone who provides CC is not really a tank in my opinion. 
     
    Aren't taunts the central point of the whole trinity? If the tank can't hold aggro, the whole thing breaks down.  
     

     

     

    First let me say Warhammer online had many faults.

    However their way of handling tanks in PvP is not one of them

    Warhammer had taunts, they made a target vulnerable to your DPS (take 30% damage from you) untull they had hit you 3+ times.

    Not the worlds greatest solution but a good one given the game

    The roll of a tank in warhammer PvP is front line damage taker, to do that they are WAY harder to kill than any other toon

    They radiate buffs to people near them (different ways for the 6 different tanking classes)

    They can guard ONE friendly target  soaking up 50% of  their incoming damage

    They can CC via the best snares of all classes and a variety of knockdowns and punts.

    THEY CANT CHARGE and cant move around the battlefield like balistic missiles like so many other bad games do.

    btw you have player collision in warhammer so a tank wall can BLOCK people from passing through a door over a bridge or any other tight space.

     

    O and warhammer had directional defences.,.. not some generic defence value

    you get hit in the back...YOU CANT BLOCK OR PARRY...but guess what... that heavy plate still helped

    Stab that caster in the back and watch it drop like a stone...unless OMG its guarded by a TANK.. who then smacks you down to the ground and slows you  and that same casters burns you into ash

     

    As a tank in WAR you FEEL like a TANK and you get to save and protect you squishy DPS but your DPS is woefull

    There was NOTHING wrong with the idea of specialist rolls in MMOs.

    The push like GW2 to bland... we all DPS a bit heal a bit tank a bit was (for me) a disaster.

    HOWEVER

    the trinity should have been expanded to a pentaverate or more NOT removed.

    BRING BACK buffing classes, dedicates caster CC classes (oooo enchanter i miss you) and the  NEED for hybrids that even Wow had before molten BORE.

     

    P.S. making players able to lvl one toon that can be all things....KILLS THE DESIRE TO EVER PLAY THE GAME ON ANOTHER TOON

     

  • BurrickBurrick Member UncommonPosts: 11

    Well my last post got me banned for trolling, not really sure why, yes my post was totally negative but that is my opinion to this game with the info I have seen so far.

     

    Why are developers so insistent that all action, no brain, no tactic mmo's are the way forward?

    I guess it is because the majority of players these days want food parcels delivered to there grubby doorways on the streets rather than going out, making some effort to receive rewards.

     

    In EQ a great community was built because we had time to build it, we met up, made a group, decided what camp we were going to and then had time between pulls, even during pulls/fights to chat.

    These days it's get randomly invited to a group, no chat, zerg, zerg more zerg and party disbands.

     

    Just like sports in schools these days, no competition, everyone is a winner, everyone gets rewarded, even with the least effort with no incentive to improve.

     

    EQ = good players could take on the throne room in CB, those that are a little less skilled could take on CB entrance and start moving into the zone as t hey gained strength, experience, confidence for example.

     

    One mistake could lead to death, these days how does anyone die in an mmo? AFK possibly?

  • AnthurAnthur Member UncommonPosts: 961
    Originally posted by Xarko
    Im not sure this has been answered anywhere,but .. for GW2 to work without trinity , all classes needed a special skill slot for a self heal ability. In EQN there is no such thing,  how does one stay alive in longer fights ?

    Potions ? No, i don't know, i am just kidding, sorry. ;)

    This whole discussion really is much too early. We don't have enough facts yet to make any reasonable assumptions how EQN combat will work.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852

    Let me see if I can communicate this right..

         Combat today in most games is calculated on dps and damage mitigation.. To win the fight, you must dish it out, more then you can take..  Simple math right?  DPS comes in two forms being direct damage (DD), or damage over time (DoT).. Now as for mitigation, that will come in more forms.. The standard form has always been based on armor value, shields and a variety of combat moves such as dodge and block..  Since the beginning of time it has always been that plate armor is better then cloth armor, therefor your best mitigation is someone that can wear plate..  But there were those uncommon classes like a monk that had high enough dodge and block ratings to make up the difference.. However, in general if you wore cloth, you didn't live long if you got the attention of the mob, hence Squishies..  To protect the squishies something had to be done, and the best two forms of controlling a mob attacking your weaker classes was agro management and rooting the mobs.. 

         Back in the day of EQ, rooting and snaring was a viable method of keeping mobs off "non" plate class wearing toons.. This lead kiting as a popular form of killing..  Druids, Wizzies, Bards and Necro's all kited.. If you didn't kite then someone had to play as meat shield, and that was normally someone able to draw attention with taunting or use skills that acted as taunts.. Here we go with the trinity type of tank & healer formula..  Now if we remove the taunting mechanic, that leaves you with two options..1) control the mobs movement, OR 2) FFA mob chaos.. We all know you can not have mobs roaming free within your group of squishies, especially smart ones..  The way I see it.. Everyone has to have some ability to control a mobs movement, or raise the armor value of squishies so they can take a beating like the plate classes can.. (but doesn't that void the whole purpose of having different armors?).. Or you put taunt back in the game.. 

         IN conclusion you either:

    1. Meat shields taunt the damn mobs
    2. Control the movement of  the damn mobs
    3. Make damage mitigation equal for everyone..
    I"m ok with 1 and 2, but not a fan of 3.. If I missed something, please let me know..
  • ZeroxinZeroxin Member UncommonPosts: 2,515
    Originally posted by Daaken

    .......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?

     

    They never said their getting rid of roles, the panel even explicitly said that if you enjoy playing a certain way, you can continue to play that way and even be rewarded just the same as anyone else.  This isn't GW2, where you have dumb AI, the mobs will target intelligently and a Trinity based system makes no sense in the grand scheme of a dynamic and smart world.  Story Bricks will revolutionize the genre because of this.

    Sorry to sound like I'm attacking you but, you sound like you're in dreamland. GW1 had some of the best Ai in a game to date, if you played that and were excited for GW2 you'd probably be like "Yea, GW1 had badass Ai, I bet GW2 would too!" but look how that turned out. Best not to get your hopes up until they show us some dungeon gameplay or you play it yourself.

    This is not a game.

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