Why'm I not surprised. Another thread written by someone who didn't listen to all the interviews.
Recap. We didn't see combat, we saw a demo with nonresponsive monsters. The demo was to show some combat moves and environment destruction. It was not actually showcasing combat.
That's something Sony will show later when they're ready.
Another interview I saw touched on Pvp. Sony said it'll be amazing, but they don't want to discuss it yet.
They're saving some goodies for later.
Hope this helps, track down ALL the interviews because they're rather enlightening.
Originally posted by vorpal28 I just like the fact that it's a very tiny amount of people complaining, rest of us a really looking forward to a new interration of EQ!
Love a lot of the EQN idea, practically all of them. That said, I absolutely detest their take on what combat "should be." I heard them out, watched their class panel, and was disgusted for the same reason I hate League of Legends. I want a role I can be attached to, that I can progress, not an ever changing class that will be nothing more than a passing trend.
Furthermore, action combat the way they are planning on doing it will only be a step backwards, and will end up a mess like GW2. Its not "more intelligent", its fucking stupid. Sorry, I try to restrain myself but theres no way to communicate that any less severely without something being lost in translation or somehow ambiguous. Removing the tank role in favor of a system where mobs randomly bounce around and attack whoever they can get their hands on is dumb, not intelligent. Aggro = logic. Removing it = dumb. Mobs will never be as fast as players, even if they do have all the abilities players have at their disposal. They will never be able to predict player counter measures, or be able to catch them when they evade. This system is nothing but cat and mouse combat where you avoid the big telegraphed target rings.
These are legitimate complaints and no amount of innovative features will make a bad combat system a fun game to play.
Originally posted by vorpal28 I just like the fact that it's a very tiny amount of people complaining, rest of us a really looking forward to a new interration of EQ!
That's kind of the issue here as well. There are maybe 6 people here creating and feeding the complaining threads, posting again and again about the same thing. You can boil it down to 2 complaints, really: Graphics and the 8 skill hotbar. They'll either get over it or move on to something else. Until then its a waiting game until this drama storm ends.
Also, I have no idea whatsoever who started the ridiculous claim of there not being a trinity. Dave and the EQN team in interviews and presentations have very clearly stated the trinity exists. I have to assume it is the Committee of Discontent that has falsified this into a "There is no Trinity" axis just to fuel their rants. Please, do some reading, watch the videos again, and stop feeding the blatant lies being spread in that regard. The Trinity exists, and you can multi-class to add other skills to your healer/tank/dps.
I am all for change if it is right. The EQ franchise was the leader (at least in my eyes) among the many. It was, or is the anchor that is an mmorpg. These proposed changes have mixed it up the wrong way imho!
I no longer will view EQ upon a fantasy pedestal but as a new XBox 360 Skylanders theme. Although it may be great for my kids, I would not expect it for adults, and see this on about the same course as Skylanders.
I hope the changes are not permanent, they have plenty of time to do something different, but for now I have lost my EQ hopes.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
There has been a lot of criticism of EQN over the last couple of days and inevitably in response to every criticism is this statement that "it's new and innovative, and you don't like it because you can't handle change".
Here is the thing though. The innovative pieces of EQN - Rally Calls, Voxel World, Landmark, Dynamic Content - these ARE NOT what are "hating" on. Even the "hater" threads tend to like some or all of these innovative and new things.
What people are criticizing is stuff that's been done in multiple other games and that people have hated.
The WoW-meets disney character models - there is nothing innovative about them. It is an inappropriate choice for the EQ franchise. It has nothing to do with it being new, it has to do with them being ugly and just wrong.
The GW2 action-combat and removal of the trinity - this sucked in GW2 and resulted in extremely trivial easy-mode encounters, no reliance on other people, poor socialization (no one ever talked in GW2 raids) and general boredom. There are other action-combat game (NW, TSW - that do a better job designing complex encounters with action-combat, but only GW2 has totally tossed out the trinity and their encounters are crap.)
So yeah, before you blame people for hating change, consider that it's not change they hate, it's bad or inappropriate features that they've seen before and did not like. I don't see too many people talking about how "Rally Calls are a bad idea" or "being able to build anything via landmark is stupid". Poeple LIKE the new and innovative ideas. It's stuff copied from WoW and GW2 that people are hating on.
Agreed. There are good ways to incorporate change in any product.. SOE made some grave mistakes with changes in a number of key areas the will, in the end, alienate the very player base that Smed was toasting for their 14 years of patronage during his keynote.
1. Cartoonish characters last longer... That's the only reason for this decision. If they can make a mmo with Halo 4 graphics and art style they WILL! Ever heard of uncanny valley? That's why all the big budget games are anime-like now. I don't want my mmo to look like shit in ten years, like EQ2 is right now, just because some people want it to be more realistic.
2. Hard holy trinity is the reason why there're so many unhappy healers and tanks back in EQ or WoW, because they're always forced to play certain ways, at certain hour of the day by their guildmates, and be hated forever when they decide to quit the game. Notice that I used the word "hard" here? Do you know that EQN will not fully abandon holy trinity and they want people to feel "needed" in some degree but not "WTF why can't you fXckers play tonight you little #$%^&*"
Go watch the Curse class panel then we'll talk...
So I have heard the "Trinity must die, since I can't ever find a tank of healer."
Now you have shown me another with "The trinity must die since tanks and healers are being bossed around and people are mean to them"
Seems the "trinity" just can't win.
The trinity's problems ARE there. Just because no one has figure out how to avoid them doesn't mean devs should stop trying. And... didn't I mention that they say they WILL NOT remove trinity as a whole?
Why'm I not surprised. Another thread written by someone who didn't listen to all the interviews.
Recap. We didn't see combat, we saw a demo with nonresponsive monsters. The demo was to show some combat moves and environment destruction. It was not actually showcasing combat.
Hope this helps, track down ALL the interviews because they're rather enlightening.
I've read the summaries and seen the videos from every single EQN panel.
When i talk about combat, i'm not talking about the demo, I'm talking about the things said in the panels, specifically: "no holy trinity", "content doable without your best player", "everyone responsible for themselves in combat", etc. It all sounds extremely similar to how GW2 combat sounded prior to GW2 being launched.
Yes, that is "opinion", but it is a well-informed and widely shared opinion based on all available information.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by vorpal28 I just like the fact that it's a very tiny amount of people complaining, rest of us a really looking forward to a new interration of EQ!
That's kind of the issue here as well. There are maybe 6 people here creating and feeding the complaining threads, posting again and again about the same thing. You can boil it down to 2 complaints, really: Graphics and the 8 skill hotbar. They'll either get over it or move on to something else. Until then its a waiting game until this drama storm ends.
Also, I have no idea whatsoever who started the ridiculous claim of there not being a trinity. Dave and the EQN team in interviews and presentations have very clearly stated the trinity exists. I have to assume it is the Committee of Discontent that has falsified this into a "There is no Trinity" axis just to fuel their rants. Please, do some reading, watch the videos again, and stop feeding the blatant lies being spread in that regard. The Trinity exists, and you can multi-class to add other skills to your healer/tank/dps.
The more vocal crowd on the internet can always make their opinions sound like a big deal...
Most people didn't even watch the class panel for christ's sake!
I don't have a problem at all with the voxel world, destructibility and more enhanced AI...those are innovative and I hope other games incorporate them quickly. My problem is with the gameplay as I detail below.
1) Art style - cartoons remind me that I'm playing "just a game" and thus suck the immersion out
2) Class system or lack thereof - extremely simplistic classes (8 total abilities) not much to sink your teeth into there. All the abilities in the game (across 40 "classes") could fit within 4 classes from most other MMORPGs. It's easy on the devs but too simplistic with the players. Mixing and matching via multi-classing will still mean you will only have a couple attacks that you ever use in combat, I cannot see that not getting boring...fast.
3) Gameplay combat - action based/simplistic/shallow console style combat complete with over the top animations and superhero type moves. Combat will get very boring quickly.
4) Minimal vertical progression replaced with "horizontal progression" - I played TSW it had horizontal progression, it felt like no progression.
5) No trinity - This means no defined roles in a group, which makes group play very simplistic and zergy. Have played other games like this and the combat is not tactical/strategic or fun in my mind. It ends up chaotic and repetitive.
6) "Each group member will be responsible for their own survival (within the group)"...this is like the BYOH (Bring Your Own Heals) groups in Dungeons & Dragons Online...it means very loose group ties, not group centric like I and many others wanted.
The only "combat" we have seen has been tech demos purely showing off what it looks like. Most of the AIs they were fighting were designed to be really easy and most did not even attack. Don't come to such conclusions until we see the actual combat. And the features they are adding in are only possible with such a graphical style as it allows for everything to be destructible and other things. I am excited and really looking forward to EQN.
The GW2 action-combat and removal of the trinity - this sucked in GW2 and resulted in extremely trivial easy-mode encounters, no reliance on other people, poor socialization (no one ever talked in GW2 raids) and general boredom. There are other action-combat game (NW, TSW - that do a better job designing complex encounters with action-combat, but only GW2 has totally tossed out the trinity and their encounters are crap.)
I remember shortly after launch people were roaring and gnashing teeth that the dungeons in gw2 were not only too hard, but un-doable unless you had a team of well seasoned players on VOIP comms.
I didnt stay too long in that game (i didnt like how grindy the crafting was vis a vis the story moving you to a new place while your crafting demanding you stay in the starter zone for another 500 hours farming the same resources) but i am supposing either Anet nerfed the encounters or people just learned how to do the fights with the tools they were given.
in tera which also has an action style of combat the dungeons are fun and challenging (at least the bosses and BAMs) to me at any rate. the game has flaws but i dont think "difficulty of encounters" is one of them.
also i dont see how trinity = complex encounters. aftr all many if not most trinity bossfights can be described as how best to boil a situation down to tank and spank. when i think of a truly memorable bossfight in the trinity game WoW for example, i remember lady vashj, which was a brilliant example of how to turn a fight into something other than tank and spank (which, again is what trinity endeavours to do). those fights were in the minority however. most of the boss fights were a prety standard Trinity tank / spank with a few whistles and bells.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Read? You need to watch the QA in that panel if you haven't...
One of the dev, Jeff I think, talked a lot about the subject since so many people is asking questions related to the trinity. The focus in EQN combat is not about removing trinity and streamlining every character build, but to remove the bad things that happened in the old system in the last 15 years while maintaining the feel and need to have certain "roles" in a combat situation, dungeon, or guild. It's not going to be easy, and they'll be arrogant to say that they will make everything perfect on their first try, but they're definitely not going to stop trying to find the middle ground between trinity and action combat just because someone else tried and failed.
Great that this many people have already played the game and know so much about how the combat system, grouping, class dynamics, etc work, but aren't you guys breaking some NDA by informing us about all this?
Why'm I not surprised. Another thread written by someone who didn't listen to all the interviews.
Recap. We didn't see combat, we saw a demo with nonresponsive monsters. The demo was to show some combat moves and environment destruction. It was not actually showcasing combat.
That's something Sony will show later when they're ready.
Another interview I saw touched on Pvp. Sony said it'll be amazing, but they don't want to discuss it yet.
They're saving some goodies for later.
Hope this helps, track down ALL the interviews because they're rather enlightening.
Since you are so kind to tell OP to do some research, you are obviously aware of the video on the curse website, of the SOE live class panel.
There has been a lot of criticism of EQN over the last couple of days and inevitably in response to every criticism is this statement that "it's new and innovative, and you don't like it because you can't handle change".
Here is the thing though. The innovative pieces of EQN - Rally Calls, Voxel World, Landmark, Dynamic Content - these ARE NOT what are "hating" on. Even the "hater" threads tend to like some or all of these innovative and new things.
What people are criticizing is stuff that's been done in multiple other games and that people have hated.
The WoW-meets disney character models - there is nothing innovative about them. It is an inappropriate choice for the EQ franchise. It has nothing to do with it being new, it has to do with them being ugly and just wrong.
The GW2 action-combat and removal of the trinity - this sucked in GW2 and resulted in extremely trivial easy-mode encounters, no reliance on other people, poor socialization (no one ever talked in GW2 raids) and general boredom. There are other action-combat game (NW, TSW - that do a better job designing complex encounters with action-combat, but only GW2 has totally tossed out the trinity and their encounters are crap.)
So yeah, before you blame people for hating change, consider that it's not change they hate, it's bad or inappropriate features that they've seen before and did not like. I don't see too many people talking about how "Rally Calls are a bad idea" or "being able to build anything via landmark is stupid". Poeple LIKE the new and innovative ideas. It's stuff copied from WoW and GW2 that people are hating on.
, but with a wait and see on how innovative the innovative pieces actually turn out.
Seriously, people need to stop spreading lies! The freaking developer of the game said that EverQuest Next does have trinity! Quit spreading untrue rumors!
Comments
Why'm I not surprised. Another thread written by someone who didn't listen to all the interviews.
Recap. We didn't see combat, we saw a demo with nonresponsive monsters. The demo was to show some combat moves and environment destruction. It was not actually showcasing combat.
That's something Sony will show later when they're ready.
Another interview I saw touched on Pvp. Sony said it'll be amazing, but they don't want to discuss it yet.
They're saving some goodies for later.
Hope this helps, track down ALL the interviews because they're rather enlightening.
That's because the models looks nothing like WoW.
FreeRealms is closer, but it's really Pixar. Just check the Brave movie for comparison.
Agree with the OP.
Love a lot of the EQN idea, practically all of them. That said, I absolutely detest their take on what combat "should be." I heard them out, watched their class panel, and was disgusted for the same reason I hate League of Legends. I want a role I can be attached to, that I can progress, not an ever changing class that will be nothing more than a passing trend.
Furthermore, action combat the way they are planning on doing it will only be a step backwards, and will end up a mess like GW2. Its not "more intelligent", its fucking stupid. Sorry, I try to restrain myself but theres no way to communicate that any less severely without something being lost in translation or somehow ambiguous. Removing the tank role in favor of a system where mobs randomly bounce around and attack whoever they can get their hands on is dumb, not intelligent. Aggro = logic. Removing it = dumb. Mobs will never be as fast as players, even if they do have all the abilities players have at their disposal. They will never be able to predict player counter measures, or be able to catch them when they evade. This system is nothing but cat and mouse combat where you avoid the big telegraphed target rings.
These are legitimate complaints and no amount of innovative features will make a bad combat system a fun game to play.
Am I allowed to agree with the OP again?
Oops...
That's kind of the issue here as well. There are maybe 6 people here creating and feeding the complaining threads, posting again and again about the same thing. You can boil it down to 2 complaints, really: Graphics and the 8 skill hotbar. They'll either get over it or move on to something else. Until then its a waiting game until this drama storm ends.
Also, I have no idea whatsoever who started the ridiculous claim of there not being a trinity. Dave and the EQN team in interviews and presentations have very clearly stated the trinity exists. I have to assume it is the Committee of Discontent that has falsified this into a "There is no Trinity" axis just to fuel their rants. Please, do some reading, watch the videos again, and stop feeding the blatant lies being spread in that regard. The Trinity exists, and you can multi-class to add other skills to your healer/tank/dps.
I am all for change if it is right. The EQ franchise was the leader (at least in my eyes) among the many. It was, or is the anchor that is an mmorpg. These proposed changes have mixed it up the wrong way imho!
I no longer will view EQ upon a fantasy pedestal but as a new XBox 360 Skylanders theme. Although it may be great for my kids, I would not expect it for adults, and see this on about the same course as Skylanders.
I hope the changes are not permanent, they have plenty of time to do something different, but for now I have lost my EQ hopes.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Agreed. There are good ways to incorporate change in any product.. SOE made some grave mistakes with changes in a number of key areas the will, in the end, alienate the very player base that Smed was toasting for their 14 years of patronage during his keynote.
The trinity's problems ARE there. Just because no one has figure out how to avoid them doesn't mean devs should stop trying. And... didn't I mention that they say they WILL NOT remove trinity as a whole?
I've read the summaries and seen the videos from every single EQN panel.
When i talk about combat, i'm not talking about the demo, I'm talking about the things said in the panels, specifically: "no holy trinity", "content doable without your best player", "everyone responsible for themselves in combat", etc. It all sounds extremely similar to how GW2 combat sounded prior to GW2 being launched.
Yes, that is "opinion", but it is a well-informed and widely shared opinion based on all available information.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The more vocal crowd on the internet can always make their opinions sound like a big deal...
Most people didn't even watch the class panel for christ's sake!
There are probably some mixed messages going on. The panel quote i read is: "The trinity is dead, time to move on." Seems pretty definite to me.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I don't have a problem at all with the voxel world, destructibility and more enhanced AI...those are innovative and I hope other games incorporate them quickly. My problem is with the gameplay as I detail below.
1) Art style - cartoons remind me that I'm playing "just a game" and thus suck the immersion out
2) Class system or lack thereof - extremely simplistic classes (8 total abilities) not much to sink your teeth into there. All the abilities in the game (across 40 "classes") could fit within 4 classes from most other MMORPGs. It's easy on the devs but too simplistic with the players. Mixing and matching via multi-classing will still mean you will only have a couple attacks that you ever use in combat, I cannot see that not getting boring...fast.
3) Gameplay combat - action based/simplistic/shallow console style combat complete with over the top animations and superhero type moves. Combat will get very boring quickly.
4) Minimal vertical progression replaced with "horizontal progression" - I played TSW it had horizontal progression, it felt like no progression.
5) No trinity - This means no defined roles in a group, which makes group play very simplistic and zergy. Have played other games like this and the combat is not tactical/strategic or fun in my mind. It ends up chaotic and repetitive.
6) "Each group member will be responsible for their own survival (within the group)"...this is like the BYOH (Bring Your Own Heals) groups in Dungeons & Dragons Online...it means very loose group ties, not group centric like I and many others wanted.
The only "combat" we have seen has been tech demos purely showing off what it looks like. Most of the AIs they were fighting were designed to be really easy and most did not even attack. Don't come to such conclusions until we see the actual combat. And the features they are adding in are only possible with such a graphical style as it allows for everything to be destructible and other things. I am excited and really looking forward to EQN.
I remember shortly after launch people were roaring and gnashing teeth that the dungeons in gw2 were not only too hard, but un-doable unless you had a team of well seasoned players on VOIP comms.
I didnt stay too long in that game (i didnt like how grindy the crafting was vis a vis the story moving you to a new place while your crafting demanding you stay in the starter zone for another 500 hours farming the same resources) but i am supposing either Anet nerfed the encounters or people just learned how to do the fights with the tools they were given.
in tera which also has an action style of combat the dungeons are fun and challenging (at least the bosses and BAMs) to me at any rate. the game has flaws but i dont think "difficulty of encounters" is one of them.
also i dont see how trinity = complex encounters. aftr all many if not most trinity bossfights can be described as how best to boil a situation down to tank and spank. when i think of a truly memorable bossfight in the trinity game WoW for example, i remember lady vashj, which was a brilliant example of how to turn a fight into something other than tank and spank (which, again is what trinity endeavours to do). those fights were in the minority however. most of the boss fights were a prety standard Trinity tank / spank with a few whistles and bells.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Read? You need to watch the QA in that panel if you haven't...
One of the dev, Jeff I think, talked a lot about the subject since so many people is asking questions related to the trinity. The focus in EQN combat is not about removing trinity and streamlining every character build, but to remove the bad things that happened in the old system in the last 15 years while maintaining the feel and need to have certain "roles" in a combat situation, dungeon, or guild. It's not going to be easy, and they'll be arrogant to say that they will make everything perfect on their first try, but they're definitely not going to stop trying to find the middle ground between trinity and action combat just because someone else tried and failed.
Great that this many people have already played the game and know so much about how the combat system, grouping, class dynamics, etc work, but aren't you guys breaking some NDA by informing us about all this?
They never said that in the curse panel video... where did you saw that!
Since you are so kind to tell OP to do some research, you are obviously aware of the video on the curse website, of the SOE live class panel.
Go watch it, then try this again.
+1
www.90and9.net
www.prophecymma.com
Agree totally, when I saw a room full of adults cheering when the doe eyed Disney characters made cutesy emotes I almost punched my computer.
I don't want to play a kids cartoon where I can knock trees down. Its doesn't get it done for me.
Smile