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[Column] General: MMO’s New Buzzwords: Dynamic Events

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    The problem with any buzzword is people try and use them before they really know what they mean.

    Sandbox has got to be the worst of these. Sandbox was always about building and changing the world, how pvp got involved I don't know.

    Dynamic events were about the outcome of the event not that it could be done more than once.

    I guess the other issue with them is, they're not solutions to a problem. A sandbox isn't a fix for a bad themepark. It's just a different way to make a game. If it's still a crappy game, being a sandbox wont make it popular.

    Actually, that's quite a profound statement. But it's true.  All of the recent games didn't fail simply because they were Theme Parks, they failed because they were poorly developed.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,769
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    New?

    Anarchy Online had dynamic content like 10 years ago but its mmorpg tho.

     

    Anarchy online was very scripted and not as dynamic as you think it was. Dynamic scripting takes alot of coding and horsepower to do. We are just getting into the time where that is possible.

    I consider GW2 DE to be scripted.  AO might have been the first to do DE in an mmorpg.  City of heroes also was scripted with the rikti invasion but those were DEs as well.   I think you want to nitpick it because you love GW2 and want to give it undo credit.  my 2 cents.

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  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    New?

    Anarchy Online had dynamic content like 10 years ago but its mmorpg tho.

     

    Anarchy online was very scripted and not as dynamic as you think it was. Dynamic scripting takes alot of coding and horsepower to do. We are just getting into the time where that is possible.

    I consider GW2 DE to be scripted.  AO might have been the first to do DE in an mmorpg.  City of heroes also was scripted with the rikti invasion but those were DEs as well.   I think you want to nitpick it because you love GW2 and want to give it undo credit.  my 2 cents.

    I was not going to even answer to that horsepower scripting crap hehe.

    But point is that there was 10 years ago some geniuses and ambitious devs who had these ideas and those ideas materialized pretty nicely.

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  • HomituHomitu Member UncommonPosts: 2,030

    "Dynamic Events" certainly have been buzz words over the past year.  I've seen just about every developer drop the "D bomb" since GW2 started to emerge on the scene as a strong player in the MMO market.  And I agree that it's a good thing.  

    I still say that GW2 did with public events what WoW did with quests; it took a concept that had been utilized to varying minor extents in previous titles and used it as the core mechanic through which players experience the world throughout the leveling process and beyond - and to great success.  Just as quests have evolved over the years into more effective forms of gameplay and storytelling, I fully expect dynamic content to continue to evolve and improve over the next decade.  Once you experience a world built on a foundation of dynamic events, it's seriously difficult to go back to quests.  It's not hard to see why so many developers are looking to incorporate them into their game worlds.  

  • VoqarVoqar Member UncommonPosts: 510

    I don't even consider GW2 to be a real MMO.  It's a single player online game.  Even when you are in a group instance you are just sharing space and a chat with soloists.

     

    Some of the content in GW2 is slick but the game overall is a crappy MMO - for me at least - because I like a more group-oriented experience.  Real groups.  Not just soloists thrown together in zergs.

     

    I don't think the problem is so much that people are sick of theme park MMOs.  Somewhat.

     

    The problem is that no matter how obvious and simple the "WoW Formula" (or EQ formula since WoW borrows HEAVILY from EQ) most people just can't match it.

     

    Here's the simple way to define all of the clones and failures.

     

    Design a game with a ton of single player content.  Spend most of your dev time on single player content - years and millons of dollars.  Add a few dungeons.  Add hardmodes of the same dungeons, often with little variation, for endgame.  Maybe but not always throw in 1, maybe 2 short and easy raids.  Slap on some crappy as hell PvP after talking the whole time you were developing about how your PvP...really..this time we mean it...is going to be the BEST MMO PVP EVARRRRR!!!!1!1!!1

     

    The end result is you have a glorified single player game.  You have tons of solo content that's usually of pretty good quality.  Players obliterate that single player content in somewhere between 1 and 60 days depending on how much they play.  For most MMOs players (IMO), it's less than 30 days because most serious MMO players play obsessively.

     

    In Neverwinter's beta that wasn't beta players were doing endgame within a few days.

     

    So all that content that took years and millions to develop is over and done with in a few weeks max.  Then what?  Players are at endgame almost immediately.  Except...there isn't much endgame because most dev time was spent on solo content that got summarily obliterated.  There's that handful of hardmodes that get old quick and maybe a few raids, and no raid progression.   So a few weeks/months later everybody is done with that too.

     

    Oh yeah, you have the obligatory must be everything to everybody slapped on craptastic PvP because it would be a shame for the people who won't play unless there's PvP and who don't care about the rest of the game didn't play.  It doesn't matter that the PvP has zero tie to the rest of the game, zero purpose other than to be a minigame, is usually unfinished and broken, and that every little tweak in the chase for the never to be achieved PvP balance affects the real game.

     

    So you have games like LOTRO, SWTOR, TSW, TERA, and on and on.  Good games in general but games that were built almost entirely around solo content that players vaporize in short order.  Games that didn't ship with much of an endgame - surely not enough to keep people busy for any real length of time.  Games that didn't ship with a progression system in place (both EQ and WoW use the same formula for endgame progression...it works...it's why both games have lasted years).

     

    Games that didn't add enough endgame fast enough to retain playes.

     

    MMO players are fickle these days.  If not stimulated adequately they move on, and once gone, they're usually gone for good.

     

    I played TSW after realizing that GW2 is a crappy game.  It has some of the best, if not the best, solo/leveling content ever.  It has amazing instances.  It has a super slick character system.  It has a super slick endgame gearing system.  It had one raid, with one boss.  Once done with the gearing and raid, you're done period.

     

    So what does (un)funcom do?  Do they crank out more group content?  Do they extend the gear progression?  Do they add more instances and raids.  No.  They spend months at a time creating new issues of solo content.  Months.  Players destroy that content in a few hours.  It is probably the least efficient content they could possible create and does nothing to retain players.

     

    Dumb developers is the problem.  Not the style of game.

     

    Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    Not all dynamic events are created equal.  I hated events in both gw2 and rift.  They both just felt like spamfests.  Something about ff14 is different.  Analytically, it seems like it would be the same, but in actuality it feels very different.
  • OmnifishOmnifish Member Posts: 616
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    New?

    Anarchy Online had dynamic content like 10 years ago but its mmorpg tho.

     

    Anarchy online was very scripted and not as dynamic as you think it was. Dynamic scripting takes alot of coding and horsepower to do. We are just getting into the time where that is possible.

    I consider GW2 DE to be scripted.  AO might have been the first to do DE in an mmorpg.  City of heroes also was scripted with the rikti invasion but those were DEs as well.   I think you want to nitpick it because you love GW2 and want to give it undo credit.  my 2 cents.

    GW2 are brilliant at marketing, it has to be said...

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    I don't like the term Dynamic because in reality they are not dynamic they are still scripted content just as any other content is.

    The other FACt is this was a term used to create marketing hype,to make it sound like "we are bringing you something new".

    Truth is the way they are implemented is just normal content but the map is kept basically empty of mobs until something triggers it.This again is nothing new,no different than quests in every other game that use triggers to spawn a Boss or use a damage trigger to have a building collapse.

    Creative content is in how you change things up,simply having content disappear or appear is not a Dynamic event.

    IMO when a developer TRIES too hard to make a point of their game,they are up to something.Why can't a developer simply make a game full of content and say here try our game,why the marketing ploy using gimmick words?

    Marketing and gimmick words is like a car salesman telling you to not worry about the loose steering wheel because we made it that way so you could easily turn the wheel with one hand while talking on the phone with the other.Then he proceeds to remind you how bad is WAS in the past,remember having to use two hands to crank that steering wheel,see we are doing you a favor,we call it a Dynamic steering wheel.Meanwhile the truth is the steering linkage is worn out and a problem waiting to happen.

    I am not saying the use of dynamic is a problem waiting to happen,but it most certainly is doing us no favors either.If we are trying to recreate a living world,you don't do it by making things spawn out of thin air or wait for some trigger to magically make it appear.You do it by having the content already there,after all it is a world not a blank sheet waiting to enter a trigger.There are of course ideas that support phasing in such as starting a fire or pitting out a fire with water.Or of course broken bridges,buildings,nothing like that would look proper if just magically happened,you need something to trigger those.

     

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  • OmnifishOmnifish Member Posts: 616

    Can't edit my above for some reason...to add then

    ANET are brilliant at marketing, it has to be said...

    GW2 content is mainly reverse questing, not a new idea. But through buzzwords you convince enough people it's a revolutionary new idea and now every other developer has to have, 'dynamic events'...it'll forever be associated with GW2, regardless of whoever comes up with a better implementation. 

    I don't think this article really answered why not all buzzwords are bad. All you've stated is how your version of, 'dynamic events', will conceptually work.

    That's great an all but a little false advertising me thinks.

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  • OmnifishOmnifish Member Posts: 616
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I don't like the term Dynamic because in reality they are not dynamic they are still scripted content just as any other content is.

    The other FACt is this was a term used to create marketing hype,to make it sound like "we are bringing you something new".

    Truth is the way they are implemented is just normal content but the map is kept basically empty of mobs until something triggers it.This again is nothing new,no different than quests in every other game that use triggers to spawn a Boss or use a damage trigger to have a building collapse.

    Creative content is in how you change things up,simply having content disappear or appear is not a Dynamic event.

    IMO when a developer TRIES too hard to make a point of their game,they are up to something.Why can't a developer simply make a game full of content and say here try our game,why the marketing ploy using gimmick words?

    Marketing and gimmick words is like a car salesman telling you to not worry about the loose steering wheel because we made it that way so you could easily turn the wheel with one hand while talking on the phone with the other.Then he proceeds to remind you how bad is WAS in the past,remember having to use two hands to crank that steering wheel,see we are doing you a favor,we call it a Dynamic steering wheel.Meanwhile the truth is the steering linkage is worn out and a problem waiting to happen.

    I am not saying the use of dynamic is a problem waiting to happen,but it most certainly is doing us no favors either.If we are trying to recreate a living world,you don't do it by making things spawn out of thin air or wait for some trigger to magically make it appear.You do it by having the content already there,after all it is a world not a blank sheet waiting to enter a trigger.There are of course ideas that support phasing in such as starting a fire or pitting out a fire with water.Or of course broken bridges,buildings,nothing like that would look proper if just magically happened,you need something to trigger those.

     

     

    +1 Well said

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  • VentlusVentlus Member Posts: 96
    zzzzz i hope they don't make more games like gw2. Their is no end game at 80, its all about looks no actual, we worked really hard to get these pieces of gear. If they made a sandbox, where i'm not forced to pvp and they had good amount of end game content i would be happy. I don't think people are getting sick of themeparks, just poorly developed ones, and ones that might stay to close to WoW's interface in peoples mind But anyways FFXIV is gonna satisfy me and i will try the other mmo's after that just to see how they are. 
  • HomituHomitu Member UncommonPosts: 2,030
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I don't like the term Dynamic because in reality they are not dynamic they are still scripted content just as any other content is.

    The other FACt is this was a term used to create marketing hype,to make it sound like "we are bringing you something new".

    Truth is the way they are implemented is just normal content but the map is kept basically empty of mobs until something triggers it.This again is nothing new,no different than quests in every other game that use triggers to spawn a Boss or use a damage trigger to have a building collapse.

    Creative content is in how you change things up,simply having content disappear or appear is not a Dynamic event.

    IMO when a developer TRIES too hard to make a point of their game,they are up to something.Why can't a developer simply make a game full of content and say here try our game,why the marketing ploy using gimmick words?

    Marketing and gimmick words is like a car salesman telling you to not worry about the loose steering wheel because we made it that way so you could easily turn the wheel with one hand while talking on the phone with the other.Then he proceeds to remind you how bad is WAS in the past,remember having to use two hands to crank that steering wheel,see we are doing you a favor,we call it a Dynamic steering wheel.Meanwhile the truth is the steering linkage is worn out and a problem waiting to happen.

    I am not saying the use of dynamic is a problem waiting to happen,but it most certainly is doing us no favors either.If we are trying to recreate a living world,you don't do it by making things spawn out of thin air or wait for some trigger to magically make it appear.You do it by having the content already there,after all it is a world not a blank sheet waiting to enter a trigger.There are of course ideas that support phasing in such as starting a fire or pitting out a fire with water.Or of course broken bridges,buildings,nothing like that would look proper if just magically happened,you need something to trigger those.

     

    While I'll agree that Anet surely carefully chose the wording of their catchphrase and drove the word "dynamic" home for a several years intentionally, I don't think they ever once said their content was something it's not.  Dynamic events does not mean non-scripted; it does not mean they don't loop; it does not mean changes are permanent forever and ever; it does not mean they don't repeat.  Anet never said they were all of these things, and the phrase "dynamic event" means exactly however Anet defines it. 

    The problem arises when other MMO players hear the phrase first and immediately attribute their own meaning to it.  Then, when the game doesn't meet their personally established standards for what the phrase "dynamic event" should entail, they say, "ah ha! This isn't dynamic at all!"  It's a line of logic shrouded in the essence of the straw man.  

    The thing that really gets me is people were making these arguments way before the game launched, and other players were correcting them then as well, but to no avail.  

    Dynamic events won't be truly dynamic, they'll be scripted!  Yeah, we know that, we said. That's not what they mean by dynamic.

    The results of dynamic events won't be permanent!  Of course not, we said, that would be preposterous in a themepark entirely contingent upon developer-generated content.  That's not what they mean by dynamic either.

    Events are bound to repeat. They're cycles will loop. That's not very dynamic!  We know that too.  They have to chain back and forth; spawn and respawn.  There won't be an infinite amount of content!

    Bottom line is, you can only go by the actual information Anet gave you.  They chose to name their system something catchy so it garnered attention.  You'd be a business fool to not try to do that.  But they didn't mislead you with false, fantastical ideas of how dynamic events would play out.  They very truthfully explained their system, and millions of us knew exactly what to expect.  If you interpreted more from the simple catchphrase than they explicitly defined, the fault of the misinterpretation lies with you.

  • jinx1942jinx1942 Member Posts: 2
    Interesting article. It must be the time and age for it now as I distinctly remember discussing similar theory just before I was laughed out of DigiPen. At the time the technology was a ignorant impossibility it seemed. There are tools that can facilitate the process that can be integrated into the map generation and masking tools. Taking a penetrating multi-layer approach to the solution may reap greater rewards then attempting a silver bullet approach. In any event, I eagerly await your thesis and lectures on the subjects, lust let me know where to sign up.
  • jbombardjbombard Member UncommonPosts: 598

    I too love dynamic events, and I wish more games had them.

     

    The following however made me chuckle,

    "There are three major trends emerging: dynamic events, sandbox worlds, and emergent gameplay."

     

    You always see sandbox mentioned as a trend, yet I see no trend except for the trend in people calling it a trend.   Not saying they aren't great, but there hasn't been a good sandbox game in a long long time, not hardly a trend.  More like an occasional blip on the radar that quickly disappears.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667

    WoW has not lost 4+ Million subscribers, the MMO market place has lost 4.3 Million potential customers to the economic down turn.  If and when things get better, WoW will regain 4.3 Million subscribers.

     

    As for Dynamic Events, I say "Same As It Ever Was."  FireFall is a MMOFPS, so it is competing  with other MMOFPSs like Planetside2.  IMO, Planetside, was the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot.  It had a 3 faction PvP focused game world, and support for the Trinity Game Play.  DAoC is what you should have strived for.

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  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Member UncommonPosts: 759
    I believe GW2 did a great job spiking the ball in a different direction. The game play is deep and challenging. The combat is one of the better action combat ones out there. Just about every part of the world feels alive and lived in, unlike many mmos out there. There attempt to use dynamic events to better the experience was not for everyone and yes it does get repetitive like regular questing. I do not fault them for their efforts. Unfortunately the game still felt like most other theme park games in the end. I have been so burnt out on mmos I went back to rpgs like Dragon Age and Skyrim. For me when the world changes and a boss is dead I want them to stay that way. MMOs have not offered me the permanency I enjoy from rpgs.


  • FirnwindFirnwind Member UncommonPosts: 25

    Dynamic events hmm they could be great but at the moment they are just an alternative to quests and not always better because they are a more akin to daily quests which repeat everytime without much context or relevance.

    At the beginning I really like the GW2 dynamic quests as they seem to make an interest but they cycle through so damn fast, rescued the village? doesn't matter in no more than 15 minutes it will be attacked again and as player are staying more in high lvl zones this becomes even clearer. It just shows that the result don't matter just as with quests you do one time, but at least quests can have an interesting story behind them. Why can't the defended village stay safe for a few hours while enemies regroup? The world is so big their will always be other content for other players without making everything so ... fast ...

    I like dynamic content as an idea but until now the implementation in all games I have seen them were a bit lacklluster and not a really obvious advantage for me as a player. As a designer of course I can see why they like them, make them once and they can repeat all the item for "unlimited content" but I still hope there is a better way to make dynamic content more meaningful instead of fast repeating "quests".

     

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,412

    Analytics is a buzzword I hear thrown around often but it often is not utilized effectively.

    Probably the best use of analytics in mmos is to survey your customer bases system in order to properly advance the game in the direction of those systems and peripherals. It makes no sense to continue supporting legacy if the players don't use legacy hardware. Today I don't think there is any active mmo gamer without DX10 graphics card and a multi-core 64-bit CPU on a 64-bit operating system. Why are we still making games for DX9.0c for single threaded games? Proper analytics will show this.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,818
    I am not sure how easily dynamic events can made into dynamic content, if you can do that for the whole MMO making every encounter dynamic would really be something new. Lets wait and see how well they can do this.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Dynamic events are indeed interesting and I have a feeling that we only seen the top of the iceberg so far.

    I do remember how the quests were in Meridian 59 and how some of the more interesting quests in modern MMOs are (even if we still kill 10 rats in the moat far too often in most MMOs).

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,916
    What we need is a new innovative implementation of a next gen dynamic event that is a random quest generator for sandpark themebox MMORPG's. Buzzwords remind me of food commercials, it never looks that good or your plate.

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  • BelegStrongbowBelegStrongbow Member UncommonPosts: 296
    I miss Tabula Rasa so much.  It did so many things right. 
  • afxzafxz Member Posts: 1

    I don't think your average MMO player is 'tired of theme-park MMO's'. I think everyone is telling them that is how they should feel - but that isn't the case. Nostalgia for old EQ/Lineage/WoW (yes, even WoW) type games is huge. People love that sort of epic feeling and the 'on rails' combat or questing never detracted from it.

     

    The problem is one of over-saturation. The unique thing about WoW wasn't its gameplay (certainly not unique) or its features. WoW was a 'phenomenon' that hooked so many people because it commanded the entire gaming world's attention. People really miss that synchronicity. It's really important for an MMO to feel somehow 'vital', somehow truly 'massive', like your efforts in that virtual-world or server are really making a splash somehow. WoW felt incredible because you knew that, during its hey-day, if you were in one of the 'reputed' guilds, you were 'a part of something'. Nowadays the PC gaming community and MMO playerbase are divided (and ruled) over too many AAA/mainstream titles. I remember when Vanilla WoW launched, there was a period when my Xfire (then the gaming IM of choice) just switched overnight to a sea of little WoW icons. I was a professional CoD1/2 player, and my entire gaming network was also similarly sponsored/high-prem players. Everyone, over night, started playing WoW. The entire gaming community got the fever. So everyone was talking about the same things, progressing the same way, comparing the same gear, sharing the same experiences... etc.

     

    That is what TRULY makes an MMO feel really special. It's not a matter of themepark vs. sandbox, imo. EVE Online feels special because its community has generated that same sense of social massiveness and 'meaning' (no doubt made easier by the single server). No current MMO, regardless of its design principles, is going to easily re-create that concentration of people again. There's too much choice, for better or for worse. Part of WoW's magic allure was that it was a monopoly. Like it or not. It still gives me butterflies now to even think about Plaguelands, or comparing gear in Ironforge... because it really was connected to this huge, PC-wide community. Everything was imbued with an extra level of meaning. The huge Forum/Warcraft Movies/YouTube etc. presence definitely added to that: you knew that you could share content or your achievements and confer a sort of 'status' or 'recognition' in a network that literally commanded the lion's share of all PC gaming. A special moment in PC gaming history.

     

    People aren't tired of questing, or theme-park MMO's. They're tired of the endless repetitive cycle of buying a newly-hyped MMO, and playing/labouring under the knowledge that, in several months, the game will be a ghost-town, and all of their time and efforts will have been wasted. People are tired of buying yet another MMO-of-the-month that they know will generate no real activity, or command any real attention. The repetitive tasks aren't bad in-themselves; they're bad when they feel robbed of meaning, when the game/its community provides no over-arching motivation. It was a literal joy to quest or grind for hours on end when you knew it would establish some 'status' or earn you some gear/character/progression achievement in a virtual world that had relevancy.

     

    Although, of course, developers don't want to talk about that, or acknowledge 'market fatigue'... because the incessant parade of new features for newnesses sake, of the novelty 'buzzword', is what keeps their salaries being paid, and keeps the gaming-illiterate money-men and publishers providing the steady funding stream. But, yes. I predict that future MMO's that 'revolutionise' the genre and hang all of their hopes on dynamic events or gimmicky combat will still fail. What is up with that Wildstar system, with the brightly-coloured flood indicators? It's like playing a game of Dance Dance Revolution. So much for skill and nuance... all hail the impress of the new!

     
  • KarahandrasKarahandras Member UncommonPosts: 1,703
    [mod edit]].

    image, although I thinks it's possible that it's more along the lines of dynamic events being not very dynamic and just buzzwords, therefore buzzwords are cool.

     

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Member RarePosts: 1,530

    Why is it that something CoH did 10 years ago is still being picked up by developers today, and being written off as new and exciting or even remotely worthy of a buzzword.

    Moreover fuck buzzwords, everyone hates them except investors. That's because every investor inundated with ignorance when it comes to gaming.

     

    Why can't an mmorpg just have good combat, a good story, and a lengthy adventure that I can experience with all my friends simultaneously?

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