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No minimap and insta travel

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,752Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    And yet, FFXI worked fine. Travel was changed by coming across someone needing help or someone spawning something they couldn't handle, and pulling it across the paths of other players, or similar things. A well designed zone lets the different players create the interesting things that can happen while traveling.

    Er, this discussion is built upon players disliking slow travel.  They dislike it in games where you can stumble across other players in the same way you seem to be describing FFXI, so obviously stumbling upon others completely fails to make slow travel worth it.

    I imagine the following things were true of FFXI travel:

    • You didn't stumble upon another player 100% of the time.  So all of your travel was boring during those times.
    • The times you did stumble upon another player, you still had to travel the full remaining distance after helping them. 

    So it just seems to take us back to the original argument: slow travel is an overwhelming waste of players time.

    Really to fix the problem with dynamic gameplay it's much more than simply having dynamic content in between locations.  It's about having that content replace travel.

    If someone filmed the ultra-boring "Lord of the Rings, in Real-Time" movie, it would last 1 year and be composed 99% of uneventful scenes (characters traveling or sleeping or eating.)  Adding 30 days of eventful new scenes to the movie would help, but it wouldn't overcome the fact that the movie is still like 11.5 months worth of utterly boring content.  

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    And yet, FFXI worked fine. Travel was changed by coming across someone needing help or someone spawning something they couldn't handle, and pulling it across the paths of other players, or similar things. A well designed zone lets the different players create the interesting things that can happen while traveling.

    Er, this discussion is built upon players disliking slow travel.  They dislike it in games where you can stumble across other players in the same way you seem to be describing FFXI, so obviously stumbling upon others completely fails to make slow travel worth it.

    I imagine the following things were true of FFXI travel:

    • You didn't stumble upon another player 100% of the time.  So all of your travel was boring during those times.
    • The times you did stumble upon another player, you still had to travel the full remaining distance after helping them. 

    So it just seems to take us back to the original argument: slow travel is an overwhelming waste of players time.

    Really to fix the problem with dynamic gameplay it's much more than simply having dynamic content in between locations.  It's about having that content replace travel.

    If someone filmed the ultra-boring "Lord of the Rings, in Real-Time" movie, it would last 1 year and be composed 99% of uneventful scenes (characters traveling or sleeping or eating.)  Adding 30 days of eventful new scenes to the movie would help, but it wouldn't overcome the fact that the movie is still like 11.5 months worth of utterly boring content.  

    You seem to be arguing that the devs have to hand you fun every moment in the game or its a waste of time, and that's a gulf we'll never bridge. It's not the dev's responsibility to make everything fun 100% of the time, it's the dev's responsibility to give the players the tools they need to have an overall fun experience. If the players don't use those tools, or think that the game isn't going to have at least some kind of downtime or repetitive content, no MMO will ever be able to satisfy them. Unlike other genres where devs create the content, push it out there, and move on to the next project, the environment that MMOs operate in require an investment of time and effort from both devs and players that isn't present in other genres. Slow travel is part of that.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,752Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

    You seem to be arguing that the devs have to hand you fun every moment in the game or its a waste of time, and that's a gulf we'll never bridge. It's not the dev's responsibility to make everything fun 100% of the time, it's the dev's responsibility to give the players the tools they need to have an overall fun experience. If the players don't use those tools, or think that the game isn't going to have at least some kind of downtime or repetitive content, no MMO will ever be able to satisfy them. Unlike other genres where devs create the content, push it out there, and move on to the next project, the environment that MMOs operate in require an investment of time and effort from both devs and players that isn't present in other genres. Slow travel is part of that.

    What I'm suggesting is that games need reasonable pacing.

    What I'm suggesting is for every piece of a game to carry its own weight.

    The movie analogy should've made that super obvious:

    • Lord of the Rings as a real-time movie would take 1 full year to watch.  It would be 99% dull travel and sleep.  This is obviously piss-poor pacing, because the travel parts wouldn't carry their own weight.  Because they have no reason to exist, they shouldn't be there.
    • If the movie even involved 10% of those scenes, it would still be ridiculously poorly-paced and be over a month long.
    • Conversely if the movie involved no transition scenes whatsoever, and when one scene ends, the next scene instantly began, it would also be poorly-paced.  It'd watch like a schizophrenic mess.
    • But the sweet spot -- the right pacing -- is to involve short transition sequences.  The event of one scene ends, accomplishments are celebrated (or setbacks are reinforced,) and then the camera briefly shows someone riding a horse, and then the next few shots establish the location of the next scene.
    Point being that a certain amount of minimal travel is required to create the right transition pacing between "scenes" in a game, but that excessive travel goes far beyond this.  It's not the year-long LOTR in its ridiculousness, but it's definitely the month-long version.  Conversely, games with instant travel still involve that bit of travel which happens after you instantly travel to a waypoint -- so they're actually almost perfectly aligned with the pacing viewers want in their entertainment.
     
    The reason for this is rooted in the purpose behind the scenes.  When one scene ends, you need the closure-shot, the travel-shot, and the establishing-shot.  Each has a purpose.
     
    It's identical in games: all expenditures of the player's time need to have a reason to justify their existence, or they're a waste.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    People like slow travel, many don't. Some people can't handle different opinions and get stuck in a mental rut where they just cannot understand 'different'. A sandbox game with a sophisticated virtual world for example has no pacing, but does rely on player emotional investment (not just adrenalin).

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,752Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    People like slow travel, many don't. Some people can't handle different opinions and get stuck in a mental rut where they just cannot understand 'different'. A sandbox game with a sophisticated virtual world for example has no pacing, but does rely on player emotional investment (not just adrenalin).

    Virtual worlds do not exist in outside time and space.  They have pacing.  It's just a dramatically slower pacing than normal games.

    The reason there's a niche who enjoys that sort of game is they highly value the type of gameplay found in them (and under-value the gameplay found in other games) which results in the time being "worth it" from their perspective.

    But the joke's on them in a way, since most of the type of gameplay they enjoy could be gained without the excessive downtime of those games.  Really the only reason it isn't is that there isn't really a game offering that correct mix of gameplay (combining a player-driven world economy where resources exist at discrete locations, with a gameplay feature that frees players from having to manually do the traveling and hauling themselves.)

    Also you're wrong to imply that pacing only matters to adrenaline-driven entertainment.   The wrong pacing can ruin the mood of a drama.  The wrong pacing can completely dismantle comedy.  Pacing is critically important to every form of entertainment. And really the Value per Time Investment relationship is a factor of every aspect of our lives, not just entertainment. 

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by sunshadow21
     

    Not really; some people dare to think that a game could be both at the same time.

    Of course. Wishful thinking is allowed.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    The reason there's a niche who enjoys that sort of game is they highly value the type of gameplay found in them (and under-value the gameplay found in other games) which results in the time being "worth it" from their perspective.

    You don't have to explain why there is niche. People like different things. Everyone got that. In fact, didn't the post you are responding to note the some like slow travel and some don't?

    The market decides whether there is enough for a particular type of customers to produce a AAA game for.

     

  • YoungCaesarYoungCaesar San Diego, CAPosts: 297Member Uncommon
    Well okay there should be open world pvp for no insta travel and no minimap to work. Just anything could be trouble along the way to another city, of course ítems shouldnt make you invincible vs noobies so its not a griefers Paradise...
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 836Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by sunshadow21

     

    So it just seems to take us back to the original argument: slow travel is an overwhelming waste of players time.

    Let just discuss about your point slow travel are waste of player's time.

    It depend what kind of game.

    If it a adventure game then it not waste , it part of gameplay, where you need to go around and discover the world.

     

    It not like every MMORPGs out here and those will be make are same dungeon crawl like WOW (most famous example)

    So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

    If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

     

    Op only said it interested idea and like to see if it could have a good use , not like he said WOW or D3 ( lol i use it again as example) need slow travel .

     

    PS:Most post just argument about people's personal like , it wasn't bad because it show how about market think about this idea , but i feel pointless to argu about people's like.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

    If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

     

     

    Sure, let's be specific,

    In the combat-centric, LFD heavy modern MMOs, slow travel is a waste of players' time. Accurately enough for you?

    In an adventure game (like a point & click adventure), there is little travel. I have been playing Testament of Sherlock Homes, which is presentative adventure games. You don't back-track much. You have instanced fast travel to interesting locations, and each location is made up with a few rooms (or the biggest is like several street). You are not required to backtrack or travel a lot. Each room has interesting stuff going on.

     

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by YoungCaesar
    Who would like an MMORPG with these characteristics? It would help tons with immersion and making it a real world, an unnescesary hassle for others... No ingame map with a marker for your toon so you can actually get lost, altho you would get a compass or something and a regular map

     

    Mini-Maps:

    I do not see how not having a mini-map would help with the immersiveness of my own experience. However, I can see how not having one would detract from it. If I have to physically hunt down NPC's, Party Members, Locations etc. with no quick guide as to where these things might be...It seems like that would be frustrating.

     

    I think the point of the mini-map is not so much to show me where I am, as it is to show where things important to me at the moment are in relation to me. I don't have all the sensory input with an MMOG that I would in Real Life. I can't feel the air current,  use my internal compass, take in smells. or sense temperature differences. Being cut off from a lot of my senses in a game, I need to have most most powerful sense as a human (Sight) played on more heavily to make up for that.

     

    For me at least, a well designed mini-map is indispensable for gaining a good depth of involvement. Once I learn what things on it mean and am a little practiced with it, glancing it become second nature and an unconscious act...and I simply know where I am, where things I need to know about are, and where I am going, almost automatically. And, to a level of potency that is within reason for a character that would live in supposed world.

     

    Heck in real life I use my cell phones navigator a lot. and I look at a map at least a few times a day. I used to be an avid hiker with friends. We always had at least two trail/topographical maps between us. We all understood the 3 north's and how to reconcile map north with magnetic north. we all had compasses and if they became damaged. we all knew other ways of finding our bearings. We would have walkie talkies and check in (or at the very least a whistles). We would look for and landmarks and make visual markers. We would wear bright reflective pieces of clothing to identify each other from a distance. we had signal mirrors as well...

     

    So, to me there is nothing a mini-map does in a game that does not have a realistic answer to it rl, that any sensible person would go adventuring.

     

    Insta-Travel:

    For me it all depends on the world I am taking part in. I think a good part of what can make a game feel either rushed or dragged out are the choices the developers make about transit. The way you are able to get around in a game can make or break it in truth.

     

    My opinion in general, is that the larger a world is the more options it should have for fast transit.

    A small world should probably have a return ability and maybe a few general location save spots. But, mainly things that allow for escaping imminent death or returning to where you left off easily enough after a death. A larger world should probably have a lot more to it in the way of fast travel capability. Simply because it can get tedious otherwise.

     

    Another factor to consider is how adaptive a world is. If world is static and repetitive then it stands to reason that it probably is not worth revisiting a lot of it's environs. Once is enough as part of the challenge in getting to the point. but if you have shifting terrain overtime, renewable resources through out, random mobs or treasure. then making it too easy to simply skip over vast distances can defeat the purpose of having a more dynamic world.

     

    I don't think that I could say with any confidence that any style of modern MMOG, that I have seen would be better off without insta-travel completely. But, I can say I have seen plenty that would likely be better off with a lot less of it.

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,752Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Let just discuss about your point slow travel are waste of player's time.

    It depend what kind of game.

    If it a adventure game then it not waste , it part of gameplay, where you need to go around and discover the world. 

    It not like every MMORPGs out here and those will be make are same dungeon crawl like WOW (most famous example)

    So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

    If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

     Op only said it interested idea and like to see if it could have a good use , not like he said WOW or D3 ( lol i use it again as example) need slow travel . 

    PS:Most post just argument about people's personal like , it wasn't bad because it show how about market think about this idea , but i feel pointless to argu about people's like. 

    When is travel an adventure? The first time, when new sights and experiences are encountered.

    • With fast-travel, you explore everywhere the first time.  The entire game is adventure!
    • With slow-travel, the thing added is repeat travel.  This increases the time spent not adventuring, and delays your next real adventure.
    So we can still call it a waste of time in that context too.
     
    OP can have whatever opinion he wants, but my posts are mainly centered around pointing out the lack of interest in that type of gameplay (and puzzling out the reasons behind that lack of interest.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member

    The removal of any form of instant travel has a merit if it leads to the creation of interesting decisions.

     

    An abstract example of how such interesting decisions can look:

    Do I stay here at place A to gain X1 per hour with risk factor Y1 or do I risk Y2  traveling to place B to gain X2 per hour with risk factor Y3?

     

    If the solution to that question is far from simple in such manner that it may many minutes to solve and so that you may need to solve it again another day, then yeah the "removal of instant travel"in connection with other game features has created interesting decisionmaking. 

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member

    As for no minimap: it works well if the environment isn't full of copy+paste terrains. 

     

    The minimap itself does not have to be removed, but it should remove the auto-position feature of such minimaps so that you are forced to identify where the fck you are rather than the game auto-identifying that for you. Like orientation in real life, in other words, would be nice.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 836Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    When is travel an adventure? The first time, when new sights and experiences are encountered.

    • With fast-travel, you explore everywhere the first time.  The entire game is adventure!
    • With slow-travel, the thing added is repeat travel.  This increases the time spent not adventuring, and delays your next real adventure.
    So we can still call it a waste of time in that context too.
     
    OP can have whatever opinion he wants, but my posts are mainly centered around pointing out the lack of interest in that type of gameplay (and puzzling out the reasons behind that lack of interest.)

    Then how about the case of MMO called Silkroad , slow travel play part of it.

    I wasn't play (not my like) it but i do research about little (to decide i should play or not)

    In this game , You role as merchant and take your good from city A to B to earn gold , it way to travel from A to B , you have face threats like monsters and players (pk) who going to kill you and rob your good , if it to dangerous to travel alone , you can hide people (player) to protect you in way from city A to B.

     

    I don't think in this case slow travel are waste of time since it part of game play, what do you think ?

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,752Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Then how about the case of MMO called Silkroad , slow travel play part of it.

    I wasn't play (not my like) it but i do research about little (to decide i should play or not)

    In this game , You role as merchant and take your good from city A to B to earn gold , it way to travel from A to B , you have face threats like monsters and players (pk) who going to kill you and rob your good , if it to dangerous to travel alone , you can hide people (player) to protect you in way from city A to B. 

    I don't think in this case slow travel are waste of time since it part of game play, what do you think ?

    Well decisions are gameplay, so as long as travel isn't a period of no decision-making, it's probably going to be just fine.

    The exception being that if a game offers multiple types of gameplay and requires one form of gameplay which is way shallower than the rest, then that's going to really drag down the experience.

    Like how in most MMORPGs travel involves the tiniest trickle of gameplay (avoiding mobs), but because that's so much shallower than the rest of the game it totally ruins the experience if you end up forced into traveling.

    But if travel is where Silkroad's most interesting gameplay is found, then obviously that would be fine.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • KaledrenKaledren , NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    Let just discuss about your point slow travel are waste of player's time.

    It depend what kind of game.

    If it a adventure game then it not waste , it part of gameplay, where you need to go around and discover the world. 

    It not like every MMORPGs out here and those will be make are same dungeon crawl like WOW (most famous example)

    So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

    If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

     Op only said it interested idea and like to see if it could have a good use , not like he said WOW or D3 ( lol i use it again as example) need slow travel . 

    PS:Most post just argument about people's personal like , it wasn't bad because it show how about market think about this idea , but i feel pointless to argu about people's like. 

    When is travel an adventure? The first time, when new sights and experiences are encountered.

    • With fast-travel, you explore everywhere the first time.  The entire game is adventure!
    • With slow-travel, the thing added is repeat travel.  This increases the time spent not adventuring, and delays your next real adventure.
    So we can still call it a waste of time in that context too.
     
    OP can have whatever opinion he wants, but my posts are mainly centered around pointing out the lack of interest in that type of gameplay (and puzzling out the reasons behind that lack of interest.)

    Lack of interest for you.

    I understand where you are coming from with traveling somewhere once or twice that is new is fun and exciting. There after, it just becomes routine and not as fun as it's been seen before. However, I feel there can be things done and/or added to make it fun more often.

    For instance...the announcement of EQ Next's destructable world. Sure, it regenerates after a bit, but still provides the possibility to come across different settings at times when traveling a route often used. And that it has multiple levels to discover. Meaning destroy the surface to uncover a sub surface cavern, etc.

    How about having free roam mobs. Where they aren't restricted to certain areas, but can roam at will...allowing for different mobs in different areas...and maybe of even different level or skill ranges.

    Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc.

     

    Even though I do use insta travel at times, I STILL travel the worlds I play in more on foot or via mount....and the same areas. Sure, most of the time it's the same ole stuff...doesn't bore me though. I guess knowing I am getting closer to my intended destination is the fun. That, and the possibility of encountering a player in trouble to help, or just help them because I am in the area makes it intriguing to me.

     

    Anyways, not all players think traveling the same roads is boring and uneeded. it's what makes it a world and not a lobby game after all. Even in the real world people often travel by bike, foot, or car because they enjoy it and their chosen mode of travel...even traveling the same roads they've traveled countless times before. Not everyone can, nor has the means to travel via private jet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc.

     

    You don't need slow travel to have those. Just randomly interrupt instant travel, and drop the player into a random encounter. You get the fun of the random encounter without the tedium of walking around the same route again and again.

    The fun part is not the travel, but the encounter .... so just jump to the fun.

     

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by YoungCaesar
    Who would like an MMORPG with these characteristics? It would help tons with immersion and making it a real world, an unnescesary hassle for others... No ingame map with a marker for your toon so you can actually get lost, altho you would get a compass or something and a regular map

    When games were games , and not just insta win . You had to orientate yourself , and explore... What is amusing is that games these days have been dumbed down to the point where their is no game play left. and yes game play is not just stabbing or shooting it's commuinicating / crafting / traveling /combat / developing charachters ....

    A key to most game worlds is that people get a chance of immersion, I am all for real gameplay to return and that includes trading with players in game so no auction houses just player run shops.

    I also remember when you used to be able to die traveling town to town because their were always higher level mobs that wandered.

    All for the player having to think and actually play the games ....

     

     

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • KaledrenKaledren , NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc.

     

    You don't need slow travel to have those. Just randomly interrupt instant travel, and drop the player into a random encounter. You get the fun of the random encounter without the tedium of walking around the same route again and again.

    The fun part is not the travel, but the encounter .... so just jump to the fun.

     

    Christ...you relentlessly try to alter anything anyone else may find enjoyment in into your persistent campaign for lobby game, instanance heavy crap in MMORPG's.

    The point of what we were talking about is ways to make that travel in an open MMORPG world more entertaining and varied. Not how to shorten it into more instanced non-open world console like garbage for the ADD stricken.

     

  • reichtreicht Austin, TXPosts: 41Member
    Originally posted by Tazlor
    Am I the only one who realizes we live in a real world? I never understood this want for a living, breathing world online. Step outside and you've got a living, breathing world.

    If I run outside and kill the nearest town guard I rot in prison for the rest of my life instead of leading a Gnoll uprising against the Southern Freeport Coalition... I want living breathing worlds aplenty everywhere all the time, so I can try things and not die for them.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kaledren
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc.

     

    You don't need slow travel to have those. Just randomly interrupt instant travel, and drop the player into a random encounter. You get the fun of the random encounter without the tedium of walking around the same route again and again.

    The fun part is not the travel, but the encounter .... so just jump to the fun.

     

    Christ...you relentlessly try to alter anything anyone else may find enjoyment in into your persistent campaign for lobby game, instanance heavy crap in MMORPG's.

    The point of what we were talking about is ways to make that travel in an open MMORPG world more entertaining and varied. Not how to shorten it into more instanced non-open world console like garbage for the ADD stricken.

     

    "Alter"? How can i alter anything? This is just a discussion forum. I don't see how you can "relentlessly" advocate your viewpoint and why i should not talk about my preferences.

    See .. your point has a logical fallacy. You have to "make" travel more entertaining. That also implies that you ADMIT that travel is not entertaining on its own. Anything you add that *is* entertaining (like random encounters), is an add-on, and can be enjoy on its own.

    So again, if the random encounter is the fun part, and the slow travel is not entertaining, as you have implied, why should a game keep both? Just keep the more entertaining part, and junk the non-fun part, and you have a BETTER game.

    In fact, that is why devs have done. It is not a coincident that most game have fast travel. BTW, you should be grateful. Devs have kept slow travel as an option. You can always walk. Just don't expect many will join you.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,752Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    Lack of interest for you.

    I understand where you are coming from with traveling somewhere once or twice that is new is fun and exciting. There after, it just becomes routine and not as fun as it's been seen before. However, I feel there can be things done and/or added to make it fun more often.

    For instance...the announcement of EQ Next's destructable world. Sure, it regenerates after a bit, but still provides the possibility to come across different settings at times when traveling a route often used. And that it has multiple levels to discover. Meaning destroy the surface to uncover a sub surface cavern, etc.

    How about having free roam mobs. Where they aren't restricted to certain areas, but can roam at will...allowing for different mobs in different areas...and maybe of even different level or skill ranges.

    Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc. 

    Even though I do use insta travel at times, I STILL travel the worlds I play in more on foot or via mount....and the same areas. Sure, most of the time it's the same ole stuff...doesn't bore me though. I guess knowing I am getting closer to my intended destination is the fun. That, and the possibility of encountering a player in trouble to help, or just help them because I am in the area makes it intriguing to me. 

    Anyways, not all players think traveling the same roads is boring and uneeded. it's what makes it a world and not a lobby game after all. Even in the real world people often travel by bike, foot, or car because they enjoy it and their chosen mode of travel...even traveling the same roads they've traveled countless times before. Not everyone can, nor has the means to travel via private jet.

    Open your eyes and get real, man.  It's lack of interest for me, and nearly all gamers.   This is not some singular personal opinion I'm talking about.

    Gamers do not play games to watch a run animation.  They play games to be entertained -- either by actively interacting with the game world or by viewing something which is interesting.  Slow travel is the low-point in gameplay of every game it's part of, because it is the low-point in these types of experiences.

    Dynamic elements in the game world are good, and help, but they don't excuse long periods of non-gameplay.  Long periods of non-gameplay are almost universally hated by gamers, because they're usually the exact opposite of the reason they chose to play a game in the first place.

    Most players demand a higher quality bar than to engage in a system which is not only repetitive, but easily mastered (aka shallow) and utterly familiar.  And they should demand better!  Without demanding experiences which offer deep gameplay that intrigues for years, the industry would quickly settle on that new, lower bar of quality and all we'd have would be trash travel-heavy games.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • KaledrenKaledren , NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kaledren
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc.

     

    You don't need slow travel to have those. Just randomly interrupt instant travel, and drop the player into a random encounter. You get the fun of the random encounter without the tedium of walking around the same route again and again.

    The fun part is not the travel, but the encounter .... so just jump to the fun.

     

    Christ...you relentlessly try to alter anything anyone else may find enjoyment in into your persistent campaign for lobby game, instanance heavy crap in MMORPG's.

    The point of what we were talking about is ways to make that travel in an open MMORPG world more entertaining and varied. Not how to shorten it into more instanced non-open world console like garbage for the ADD stricken.

     

    "Alter"? How can i alter anything? This is just a discussion forum. I don't see how you can "relentlessly" advocate your viewpoint and why i should not talk about my preferences.

    See .. your point has a logical fallacy. You have to "make" travel more entertaining. That also implies that you ADMIT that travel is not entertaining on its own. Anything you add that *is* entertaining (like random encounters), is an add-on, and can be enjoy on its own.

    So again, if the random encounter is the fun part, and the slow travel is not entertaining, as you have implied, why should a game keep both? Just keep the more entertaining part, and junk the non-fun part, and you have a BETTER game.

    In fact, that is why devs have done. It is not a coincident that most game have fast travel. BTW, you should be grateful. Devs have kept slow travel as an option. You can always walk. Just don't expect many will join you.

     

    Yep...too many (insert expletive here) like you who rather make them all console games.

    I use slow travel, and fast...but more so the slow. I never said it wasn't entertaining on it's own, but rather if others wanted it to be more entertaining here are options that could be used or considered...which I posted.

    I wonder why you even come here other than to blatantly troll, and get away with it. Because obviously you are not a MMORPG gamer. Hell...you've even stated so before.

  • KaledrenKaledren , NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Kaledren

    Lack of interest for you.

    I understand where you are coming from with traveling somewhere once or twice that is new is fun and exciting. There after, it just becomes routine and not as fun as it's been seen before. However, I feel there can be things done and/or added to make it fun more often.

    For instance...the announcement of EQ Next's destructable world. Sure, it regenerates after a bit, but still provides the possibility to come across different settings at times when traveling a route often used. And that it has multiple levels to discover. Meaning destroy the surface to uncover a sub surface cavern, etc.

    How about having free roam mobs. Where they aren't restricted to certain areas, but can roam at will...allowing for different mobs in different areas...and maybe of even different level or skill ranges.

    Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc. 

    Even though I do use insta travel at times, I STILL travel the worlds I play in more on foot or via mount....and the same areas. Sure, most of the time it's the same ole stuff...doesn't bore me though. I guess knowing I am getting closer to my intended destination is the fun. That, and the possibility of encountering a player in trouble to help, or just help them because I am in the area makes it intriguing to me. 

    Anyways, not all players think traveling the same roads is boring and uneeded. it's what makes it a world and not a lobby game after all. Even in the real world people often travel by bike, foot, or car because they enjoy it and their chosen mode of travel...even traveling the same roads they've traveled countless times before. Not everyone can, nor has the means to travel via private jet.

    Open your eyes and get real, man.  It's lack of interest for me, and nearly all gamers.   This is not some singular personal opinion I'm talking about.

    Gamers do not play games to watch a run animation.  They play games to be entertained -- either by actively interacting with the game world or by viewing something which is interesting.  Slow travel is the low-point in gameplay of every game it's part of, because it is the low-point in these types of experiences.

    Dynamic elements in the game world are good, and help, but they don't excuse long periods of non-gameplay.  Long periods of non-gameplay are almost universally hated by gamers, because they're usually the exact opposite of the reason they chose to play a game in the first place.

    Most players demand a higher quality bar than to engage in a system which is not only repetitive, but easily mastered (aka shallow) and utterly familiar.  And they should demand better!  Without demanding experiences which offer deep gameplay that intrigues for years, the industry would quickly settle on that new, lower bar of quality and all we'd have would be trash travel-heavy games.

    And you know this through market research? Going to gamers houses and asking?

    I don't mind a run animations...but then again I don't have a short attention span either and like to enjoy the scenery. I am certain there are others that feel the same.

    Oh...and ya...because games like WoW don't have repetitive "gameplay", nor any other game for that matter. Last I saw..EQ1 had the things you say (Or consider that way) and it still has servers running. So obviously there are plenty who don't care for everything to be instant and non-stop. That is (Or sadly was anyways) the difference between MMORPG's and most other forms of video game entertainment...downtime, or time to relax, chat (When community existed), sort goods, etc.

    P.S. LOVE that word gameplay don't ya.

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