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Preffered Spawn system?

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,719Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rounner

    Yeah, balance goes against the principle of variety and surprise.

    This whole discussion assumes things don't deviate from the current standard that much. For example, why we are killing farm animals, or that we are killing things for typical  rewards such as xp or mats.

    Balance is actually required for a surprise to be impactful.  If a boss is designed for 6 players and 12 fight it because there aren't limits on player count, then an ambush of additional mobs isn't a "surprise" -- it barely affects the fight at all.  With 12 players, the fight had already been trivially easy, and now it's still trivially easy.

    But if only 6 players were fighting (balance), then additional mobs take a tense situation and draw it tighter in a way which is very noticeable.

    You need that tension in game mechanics, or all the systems fall apart and become meaningless.  A game which used to be about delicate, tactical decision-making falls apart and becomes a mindless spam of the most basic attacks and heals, because there isn't any challenge to the fights.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by rounner

    Yeah, balance goes against the principle of variety and surprise.

    This whole discussion assumes things don't deviate from the current standard that much. For example, why we are killing farm animals, or that we are killing things for typical  rewards such as xp or mats.

    Balance is actually required for a surprise to be impactful.  If a boss is designed for 6 players and 12 fight it because there aren't limits on player count, then an ambush of additional mobs isn't a "surprise" -- it barely affects the fight at all.  With 12 players, the fight had already been trivially easy, and now it's still trivially easy.

    But if only 6 players were fighting (balance), then additional mobs take a tense situation and draw it tighter in a way which is very noticeable.

    You need that tension in game mechanics, or all the systems fall apart and become meaningless.  A game which used to be about delicate, tactical decision-making falls apart and becomes a mindless spam of the most basic attacks and heals, because there isn't any challenge to the fights.

         Not so Axe.. You miss one very important thing when talking about gaming and group content.. YOU assume everyone is equal to the challenge and that isn't the case..  I don't consider myself a pro by any standard, but I am good at what I do, very good.. I can definitely hold my own in any role except tank.. LOL 

         One thing that frost my ass in today's gaming, especially instance games is that I have friends that do not excel in the combat area..  For example, I can log on to my friends character and set it up to do 3,000 dps (which is above average) but soon as my friend logs back on to join us in the dungeon, they have a hard time doing 1,500 dps..... So now what?   Are you suggesting that I stop playing with my friends that lack the skill to maximize their character?  I come from the aspects that if I have guild mates and friends that are less then optimal I'll just get MORE to pick up the slack..  That my friend is called social gaming..   I never refuse or turn down another player because they don't meat the threshold.. WoW was notorious for this.. I can't begin to count how many times I had raid members that fall into that category of less then optimal, and because of the raid limit size, our raids failed.. BULLSHIT is what I say.. If I have 1 or 2 members that aren't combat focused, I should be allowed to pick another player or two to pick up the slack..

         MMO's should be social, where NO one person is told to GO HOME because they can't carry their weight.. Not play this Esport instance mentality that seems to run wild..

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,719Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         Not so Axe.. You miss one very important thing when talking about gaming and group content.. YOU assume everyone is equal to the challenge and that isn't the case..  I don't consider myself a pro by any standard, but I am good at what I do, very good.. I can definitely hold my own in any role except tank.. LOL 

         One thing that frost my ass in today's gaming, especially instance games is that I have friends that do not excel in the combat area..  For example, I can log on to my friends character and set it up to do 3,000 dps (which is above average) but soon as my friend logs back on to join us in the dungeon, they have a hard time doing 1,500 dps..... So now what?   Are you suggesting that I stop playing with my friends that lack the skill to maximize their character?  I come from the aspects that if I have guild mates and friends that are less then optimal I'll just get MORE to pick up the slack..  That my friend is called social gaming..   I never refuse or turn down another player because they don't meat the threshold.. WoW was notorious for this.. I can't begin to count how many times I had raid members that fall into that category of less then optimal, and because of the raid limit size, our raids failed.. BULLSHIT is what I say.. If I have 1 or 2 members that aren't combat focused, I should be allowed to pick another player or two to pick up the slack..

         MMO's should be social, where NO one person is told to GO HOME because they can't carry their weight.. Not play this Esport instance mentality that seems to run wild..

    If there's no point to anything you're doing because the game is going to give you a trophy just for participating, what's the point of playing the game?

    At the end of the day, everyone wants there to be some content balance at their personal sweet spot of challenge.

    • If it's too easy, it's boring.
    • If it's just right, it's fun.  (sweet spot)
    • If it's too hard, it's frustrating.
    This extends to group skill as well, implying you should always be able to find dungeons which are fitting of your group's overall skill (including your friends who aren't as good.)
     
    We're talking about RPGs so it's not like a social raid isn't going to be able to find content to do.  There will be lower level or easy-mode raids to do.  But if even the hardest raids let players just over-fill them with players, the game ceases to have any meaning because victory is handed out for free.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    • If it's too easy, it's boring.

    It's not that I think you are wrong about this, it's that I think you are too focused on this one element of a much larger picture.

    Even if you engineer the perfect difficulty that is right on the edge of my personal sweet spot, if you keep giving it to me, it gets bland.  An MMO needs texture, it needs punctuation.  To get great memories, you need contrast, you need moments that stand out from the background routine.

    Look at this way: good, memorable battles are the loot of the exploration side of game.

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    Seems like things are getting a bit off topic (it's about spawn systems, not how people should be treated and why). I don't want this to degrade into arguing over weather players deserve to be included regardless of merit. That is not what this thread is intended for. Lets please try to steer this back on topic. Because, as it stands it  is using spawn system discussion as a plank to walk off into an ocean of other stuff.

     

     

     

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  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAPosts: 205Member

    I prefer the spawn type where I can control when I spawn something and get on with my life.

    I had spawns with a respawn time. I hate respawns with a window. I hate spawns that there is only one of at a time which cuts off how many people can kill it.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,719Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone

    It's not that I think you are wrong about this, it's that I think you are too focused on this one element of a much larger picture.

    Even if you engineer the perfect difficulty that is right on the edge of my personal sweet spot, if you keep giving it to me, it gets bland.  An MMO needs texture, it needs punctuation.  To get great memories, you need contrast, you need moments that stand out from the background routine.

    Look at this way: good, memorable battles are the loot of the exploration side of game.

    First, the sweet spot is a range of difficulty and not precisely the same difficulty each time.  Looks like someone threw together a convenient chart of it recently for some Firefall post: image.  It's a little weird to graph it as Difficulty vs. Skill, but it's basically the same idea.

    Second, in RPGs there will naturally be a cycle to the challenge.  You'll fight mobs which will progressively get harder, then you'll level and they'll be very easy for a while, but as you keep progressing and fighting harder mobs it gets tough again, then you level...Even with a system dynamically adjusting difficulty, this is going to be the case because that system will likely be driven by one factor (like level) while the player's strength is the result of many factors (like level and gear,) so the end result is still a cycle.

    Third, shitty battles are going to happen anyway -- even without the system trying to serve up an appropriate challenge.  For example, there are some truly epic down-to-the-wire overtime rounds I've had in TF2.  This can only happen in a match where both teams were nearly balanced in skill.  Similarly in PVE, some the most memorable fights were the ones where your 25 man kills the boss right as he hard-enrages, or when I was the tank and last man standing when I killed the boss.  The fights where we wipe (too hard) or where we facerolled (too easy) the boss just automatically happen on account of players not always playing at exactly the same skill.

    But the good fights -- the really close ones; the memorable ones -- happen most frequently when the boss is perfectly suited to the raid's gear and skill level.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    We have been over items, and individual monsters, mobs and bosses, timers etc...But, there is one thing I would like to touch on before letting this thread die...The Player and Spawning. Rather, The penalties for player death and methods of player Re-spawning.

     

    Should players have ghosts? What about on the spot or near to goal resurrections? Should death penalties be harsher for PvP or PVE; or consistent across both? Is loosing a portion of experience fair? How do you feel about loosing items? How should all this work?

     

    Plenty of good questions in there to address that didn't get looked at here in any depth, yet.

    image

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 834Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Helleri

    We have been over items, and individual monsters, mobs and bosses, timers etc...But, there is one thing I would like to touch on before letting this thread die...The Player and Spawning. Rather, The penalties for player death and methods of player Re-spawning.

     

    Should players have ghosts? What about on the spot or near to goal resurrections? Should death penalties be harsher for PvP or PVE; or consistent across both? Is loosing a portion of experience fair? How do you feel about loosing items? How should all this work?

     

    Plenty of good questions in there to address that didn't get looked at here in any depth, yet.

    Ghosts part may fun but i don't think it should , just normal return to nearest town are best lol.

    As for death penalties , i don't think lost experience are good idea. It make game pointless longer and annoying.

    item dura lost or broken sound better.

    Repair cost and new item purchase are good for in game economy gold sink.

    Reasonable consume are better than lost something.

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    I can understand experience loss from a death, granting it seems fair and is useful. If I die before reaching a next level. It seems to make sense that my character would not deserve to keep as much experience as it would had I kept it alive. For sure I don't like loosing all of my experience earned between leveling if my character dies. And, I don't like de-leveling if I die to much.

     

    But, I think I would rather loose a little experience from a single death or two, in order to show me that I am out of my depth then to have to repair or replace an item. Earning a little experience back seems easier on me then having to give up some of my earned wealth. But, others might feel they would rather loose experience and have to fix a few items.

     

    I think I might most appreciate a death screen option of what to loose and what to keep. If I can see an item is near breaking because I forgot to repair it and my most recent death will push it over the edge and make the repair of the item cost a lot more or force my hand in getting an all new version of that item, I might elect to loose experience instead. If my items were full repair, and it was a lag death near gaining a level, I might want to take the penalty to my repair status. I feel like I would enjoy having the option in any case.

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  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 834Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Helleri

    I can understand experience loss from a death, granting it seems fair and is useful. If I die before reaching a next level. It seems to make sense that my character would not deserve to keep as much experience as it would had I kept it alive. For sure I don't like loosing all of my experience earned between leveling if my character dies. And, I don't like de-leveling if I die to much.

     

    But, I think I would rather loose a little experience from a single death or two, in order to show me that I am out of my depth then to have to repair or replace an item. Earning a little experience back seems easier on me then having to give up some of my earned wealth. But, others might feel they would rather loose experience and have to fix a few items.

     

    I think I might most appreciate a death screen option of what to loose and what to keep. If I can see an item is near breaking because I forgot to repair it and my most recent death will push it over the edge and make the repair of the item cost a lot more or force my hand in getting an all new version of that item, I might elect to loose experience instead. If my items were full repair, and it was a lag death near gaining a level, I might want to take the penalty to my repair status. I feel like I would enjoy having the option in any case.

    In some old game , "little experience" take 2-4 days or weeks to fill, and in those time , you drop behind people in your group. lol

    But more important

    Since designer still often use old level system , i think lost exp are troublesome

     with current quest hubs MMOs design , lost a lots exp can broken game design. They design only 3 quest  for 1 level, if you die 2 time then you don't have enough exp for next level (design broken).

    You can still play and have fun with weaker gears , but have to add more labor than design aren't good.

     

    Just my personal though , the "hard" in case of broken/lost gears are more are more than casual exp lost. And it fair for everyone than just exp lost , it mean the more power you hold (power of your gears lol) the more you lost when you die (gears broken).

    It give player more option to chose when face challenge , face it with normal gears (less loss) or face it with powerful gears (great loss)

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common

    maybe something like this could work

    specific monsters on a area spawn on some invisible circle with some area

    after every x hours, the system get the position of the monsters and their initial position and do some average to see how much they moved from their starting position (even if the position they are now is still inside the invisible circle).

    the game then after it,  move the circle position a little based on how much the monsters moved from their original position.

    if some monster die before the hours run out, the position that he died counts as where he was, to calculate the averare I said before.

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    And, that is proposed towards the ends of roving mobs?

     

    Your talking about spawn area's and roaming ranges....

     

    If you have 3 monsters spawn anywhere within a 3m sq. game space area (as a mob) and they all have a roaming range from origin of 3m on Random...the average more then likely would have them staying in roughly the same spot. And if they have no set roaming range then a day later, the newb area can be covered in high level monsters.

     

    Even if you take the maximum distance one moved away from it's origin and move the center of the spawn area to that point. You end up with a spawn area that wiggles over the course of a few rather then actually going anywhere. There would have to be a system in place that moves the spawn area to a random location within it's own diameter of the previous location from the edge of the previous location. And it would have to re-assign the spawn area a lot more frequently then every few hours to see anything interesting come about.

     

    It's doable if I understand what you mean by that right. but you need a controller that does not rely on what the mob may do. or you will rarely end up with a result you can predict to any degree, beyond doing nothing (relatively) or doing far more then it should have.

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,719Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Helleri

    We have been over items, and individual monsters, mobs and bosses, timers etc...But, there is one thing I would like to touch on before letting this thread die...The Player and Spawning. Rather, The penalties for player death and methods of player Re-spawning. 

    Should players have ghosts? What about on the spot or near to goal resurrections? Should death penalties be harsher for PvP or PVE; or consistent across both? Is loosing a portion of experience fair? How do you feel about loosing items? How should all this work? 

    Plenty of good questions in there to address that didn't get looked at here in any depth, yet.

    Apart from resetting the encounter (an obvious necessity of failure,) any additional penalty doesn't really add to a game.

    To zoom way back, the evolutionary trait of "enjoying skill improvement" is advantageous.  Which is why certain species derive pleasure from things like play-fighting.  Which is why spending more time practicing tends to be more enjoyable to spending time experiencing a lengthy penalty.

    So basically any penalty that turns gameplay off for any significant length of time is going to make the game less fun for most players.  And while penalties that focus on gameplay (or involve completely new gameplay) are definitely workable, they're definitely not required for a fun game, except for the reset.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

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