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One way to tell EQN is serious about being a sandbox

DudehogDudehog Newark, DEPosts: 112Member

If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.

 

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Comments

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter fewefw, CTPosts: 607Member

    Darkfall is not a sandbox now?

    A game doesn't have to mimic SWG to be a sandbox, you know. I hate the idea of non-combat classes because it means I can't be a combat character and craft/do other stuff at the same time.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • WaterlilyWaterlily parisPosts: 2,973Member Uncommon

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

  • TygranirTygranir Colordo Springs, COPosts: 741Member

    All sandbox means is player driven content. Sandbox features are simply player generated content. A sandbox game is a game that is actually altered by player actions.

     

    That really is the meat of it.

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  • KrimzinKrimzin Fort Worth, TXPosts: 545Member Uncommon
    Guess we will see tomorrow.

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.


    It's an Orange thing
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,487Member Uncommon
    What if the class system let you build your own class, skills and spells? Would that not be sandbox even if there was no non-combat classes? Sandbox is about the ability to build, create and shape your class, world, story and other areas of the game. Some or all is how much of the game is sandbox. Even SWG was not a pure sandbox game. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Does this mean FFXIV:ARR is a sandbox?

    Because they have 8 combat classes, 9 combat jobs, 8 crafting classes, and 3 gathering classes?

  • LorgarnLorgarn SwedenPosts: 371Member Uncommon

    Good thread, very informative and interesting.

     

    +1

     

    Also, the definition of sandbox is my definition of sandbox. What is actually is doesn't matter to you since it's not the same as yours.

  • DudehogDudehog Newark, DEPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by NagelRitter

    Darkfall is not a sandbox now?

     

    Not now and never was. Next question.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    If I can't dig a 1 meter cube out of the dirt, it's not a sandbox.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • DudehogDudehog Newark, DEPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Does this mean FFXIV:ARR is a sandbox?

    Because they have 8 combat classes, 9 combat jobs, 8 crafting classes, and 3 gathering classes?

    I see this is a difficult concept for some to comprehend. Let me make it simple so even you can understand.

     A sandbox has to have crafting, correct? My point is that if a game is going to have crafting, but it doesn't have fully fleshed out crafting classes in the same way it has for combat classes, then it's very likely it's going to be a weak sandbox experience. I'm not saying EQN won't be a sandbox without non-combat classes. I'm saying it will probably be a lame sandbox.

    [mod edit]

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon

    I would tend to agree that being able to make e.g. a 100% crafter character is an asset for a game that labels itself as "sandbox". Having to be a "warrior", "priest" or "mage" just to be a blacksmith isn't very "sandboxy". I'd love to create a blacksmith who is really just... a blacksmith, like it was possible in UO.

    But like all other factors, it's neither defining nor necessary. Fact is thought that a true sandbox game should not be only about bashing things with swords. Otherwise, Quake is a sandbox.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

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    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,487Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    If I can't dig a 1 meter cube out of the dirt, it's not a sandbox.

    That where gamers get messed up. They take a game to be known for being a great sandbox and look at all its features and say that = a sandbox game. Minecraft, SWG etc. Even Minecraft and SWG were very different games. A sandbox MMO that has PvP in it that lets you loot items off players you kill and now looting players is a sandbox feature... NO. Its simple, if the game designed lets you build, change parts of the game you interact with you now have sandbox. Be that your char, the world, crafting and story. How much of the game you can change depends on how much of the game is sandbox.  


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAPosts: 931Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dudehog

    If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.

     

    While I don't agree at all that a 'Sandbox' needs non-combat classes, I'd be more than excited to see a character class without any combat abilities.   Having a non-combatant class would imply that the game provides a meaningful game experience (at least in the eyes of the developers) that did not invoke the RP convention of fight, loot, level.  (Crafting, in every MMORPG I've played, involves looting to obtain the raw materials.  No one's ever thought of tanning that pig- or cow-hide that they unwrapped of their lunch?   Nope, got to kill a dangerous wolf instead.)

    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    Agreed.  Can we move on, or at least call it a 'Bumbleshoot' instead of a 'Sandbox'?   The repetition is getting mind-numbing.

     

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AdrazahnAdrazahn Lake Park, FLPosts: 26Member
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    This is why I can't stand this whole Sandbox vs Themepark debate. These terms are so vague they're practically meaningless. 

    The idea was non-combat classes. Is this or good idea or not? Who gives a crap if it's "sandbox".

     

     

     

     

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,487Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adrazahn
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    This is why I can't stand this whole Sandbox vs Themepark debate. These terms are so vague they're practically meaningless. 

    The idea was non-combat classes. Is this or good idea or not? Who gives a crap if it's "sandbox".

     

     

    They are very simple, problem most people dont know what themepark or sandbox means. Its simple, Themepark - play as the devs intended and players interaction with crafting, story, char and world will only have an outcome the devs intended. Sandbox - Players get ti change part or all of the world be that crafting, world, story or char. If you get creative rights over some or all of it you have a sandbox. How much you get to change tells you what % of the game is sandbox. Most MMOs are a hybrid of Sandbox and Themepark.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • keenberkeenber galwayPosts: 438Member
    If there is crafting classes that all they can do is crafting then that makes it a non sandbox game due to removing the option to choose what you char can do.
  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by keenber
    If there is crafting classes that all they can do is crafting then that makes it a non sandbox game due to removing the option to choose what you char can do.

     

    They have alluded to the possbility of a character changing classes.

    So it could allow you to do what you want to do in a sense by changing from blacksmith to wizard.

    I don't know how that would be better than a classless system though.

  • DudehogDudehog Newark, DEPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Adrazahn
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    This is why I can't stand this whole Sandbox vs Themepark debate. These terms are so vague they're practically meaningless. 

    The idea was non-combat classes. Is this or good idea or not? Who gives a crap if it's "sandbox".

     

     

    They are very simple, problem most people dont know what themepark or sandbox means. Its simple, Themepark - play as the devs intended and players interaction with crafting, story, char and world will only have an outcome the devs intended. Sandbox - Players get ti change part or all of the world be that crafting, world, story or char. If you get creative rights over some or all of it you have a sandbox. How much you get to change tells you what % of the game is sandbox. Most MMOs are a hybrid of Sandbox and Themepark.

    We all understand ,and we all knew this before you posted it. You can stop repeating yourself.

    I wasn't defining the term sandbox in my post. I was giving my opinion of one aspect of what I believe makes a good sandbox game. That's it. I think a good sandbox will have non-combat classes.  Is that so controversial or hard to understand?

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,487Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dudehog
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Adrazahn
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    This is why I can't stand this whole Sandbox vs Themepark debate. These terms are so vague they're practically meaningless. 

    The idea was non-combat classes. Is this or good idea or not? Who gives a crap if it's "sandbox".

     

     

    They are very simple, problem most people dont know what themepark or sandbox means. Its simple, Themepark - play as the devs intended and players interaction with crafting, story, char and world will only have an outcome the devs intended. Sandbox - Players get ti change part or all of the world be that crafting, world, story or char. If you get creative rights over some or all of it you have a sandbox. How much you get to change tells you what % of the game is sandbox. Most MMOs are a hybrid of Sandbox and Themepark.

    We all understand ,and we all knew this before you posted it. You can stop repeating yourself.

    I wasn't defining the term sandbox in my post. I was giving my opinion of one aspect of what I believe makes a good sandbox game. That's it. I think a good sandbox will have non-combat classes.  Is that so controversial or hard to understand?

    No you were very clear, if no non-combat classes are in EQN we dont have a real sandbox game. Time to move on then?


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXPosts: 1,155Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dudehog
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Adrazahn
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    This is why I can't stand this whole Sandbox vs Themepark debate. These terms are so vague they're practically meaningless. 

    The idea was non-combat classes. Is this or good idea or not? Who gives a crap if it's "sandbox".

     

     

    They are very simple, problem most people dont know what themepark or sandbox means. Its simple, Themepark - play as the devs intended and players interaction with crafting, story, char and world will only have an outcome the devs intended. Sandbox - Players get ti change part or all of the world be that crafting, world, story or char. If you get creative rights over some or all of it you have a sandbox. How much you get to change tells you what % of the game is sandbox. Most MMOs are a hybrid of Sandbox and Themepark.

    We all understand ,and we all knew this before you posted it. You can stop repeating yourself.

    I wasn't defining the term sandbox in my post. I was giving my opinion of one aspect of what I believe makes a good sandbox game. That's it. I think a good sandbox will have non-combat classes.  Is that so controversial or hard to understand?

    It is controversial, and most likely incorrect.  The way that EQ did it, for the most part was that there were no crafting classes at all, it was just a skill.  Making it so you cannot be an adventurer and simultaneously a crafter is a little bit stupid, but needlessly limiting (I think 15 years later the games should offer as a minimum features that EQ and UO had, right?).

    Now, if you what you really meant to say is that it won't be a good sandbox game unless it offers crafting and a crafting based economy that is so compelling you can and many will want to play only or primarily as crafters, that is a totally different thing and a compelling argument to my mind.

    Is this what you were intending?

  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob lexington, KYPosts: 871Member
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    Originally posted by keenber
    If there is crafting classes that all they can do is crafting then that makes it a non sandbox game due to removing the option to choose what you char can do.

     

    They have alluded to the possbility of a character changing classes.

    So it could allow you to do what you want to do in a sense by changing from blacksmith to wizard.

    I don't know how that would be better than a classless system though.

     

    I would really like it actually if you had traditional classes, but they were independent of each other and all had to be leveled up individually.

     

    Like if you hit max level as a warrior, then want to be a wizard, you start as a lev 1 wizard and have your max level warrior "banked".  You aren't a wizard that gets to use some warrior skills or anything like that, but it's there for you to go back to.     If you get to level 5 as a wizard, you're just an ordinary level 5 wizard even though you're a level 50 warrior too.  You don't get to use any of the warrior stuff while in wizard mode.   But you can go talk to an npc or something and switch to whatever you've been already.  

    One thing I never liked about making alts is the loss of all the fluff on your main character.   Your main has the fancy titles, the fancy appearance gear, some cool mount or whatever...but you don't have access to that because you're playing a different class now.   It has deterred people (definitely has deterred me) from doing more in a game.  

     

     

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,154Member Uncommon
    Wait, a sandbox has classes??

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mendel

    Originally posted by Dudehog

    If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.

     

    While I don't agree at all that a 'Sandbox' needs non-combat classes, I'd be more than excited to see a character class without any combat abilities.   Having a non-combatant class would imply that the game provides a meaningful game experience (at least in the eyes of the developers) that did not invoke the RP convention of fight, loot, level.  (Crafting, in every MMORPG I've played, involves looting to obtain the raw materials.  No one's ever thought of tanning that pig- or cow-hide that they unwrapped of their lunch?   Nope, got to kill a dangerous wolf instead.)

    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    Agreed.  Can we move on, or at least call it a 'Bumbleshoot' instead of a 'Sandbox'?   The repetition is getting mind-numbing.

     

    Well my definition of a Bumbleshoot is .................................................!!  Insert umpteen million worthless definitions.

    I can't wait to hear all of the reasons why EQNext  is not a sandbox!!  That debate should carry us over into the next decade at least!

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by olepi
    Wait, a sandbox has classes??

    If they use a classless system for EQN, I will like open a bottle of champain or something, but I'm not holding my breath...

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • DudehogDudehog Newark, DEPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Dudehog
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Adrazahn
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Definition 25098250285028520582058111511515 of Sandbox.

    No one cares what a sandbox is anymore at this point.

    This is why I can't stand this whole Sandbox vs Themepark debate. These terms are so vague they're practically meaningless. 

    The idea was non-combat classes. Is this or good idea or not? Who gives a crap if it's "sandbox".

     

     

    They are very simple, problem most people dont know what themepark or sandbox means. Its simple, Themepark - play as the devs intended and players interaction with crafting, story, char and world will only have an outcome the devs intended. Sandbox - Players get ti change part or all of the world be that crafting, world, story or char. If you get creative rights over some or all of it you have a sandbox. How much you get to change tells you what % of the game is sandbox. Most MMOs are a hybrid of Sandbox and Themepark.

    We all understand ,and we all knew this before you posted it. You can stop repeating yourself.

    I wasn't defining the term sandbox in my post. I was giving my opinion of one aspect of what I believe makes a good sandbox game. That's it. I think a good sandbox will have non-combat classes.  Is that so controversial or hard to understand?

    No you were very clear, if no non-combat classes are in EQN we dont have a real sandbox game. Time to move on then?

    Yes, there are different shades of sandbox. A real sandbox has more features than certain other types of less "real" sandboxes, which is why I said it will  most likely be a sandpark.

    You said the same thing in your response " Most MMOs are a hybrid of Sandbox and Themepark."  It's a gray area and not one extreme or the other.

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