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Sandboxes without OW PVP would have worse player retention than themeparks

 

We all know that themeparks post-WoW have a problem with the retention rate of players (the already discussed "themepark trap"), that they start with a big burst in subscriptions and after some months (when the people reach the "endgame") the playerbase falls fast.

Well, i think sandboxes without ow meaningful pvp can have a even worse fall in the playerbase than these themeparks, since:

 

1- Themeparks can put their "carrots" in instanced areas, which allow them multiply by hundreds or thousands the real in-game "content" available to the players. Sandboxes in the other hand will have to provide all their pve content (at least the best) in the open world, which restricts dramatically the amount of "pve content" (that works as "tools" to pursue the "carrots") available to players.

2- Outside the structured and "dramatized" challenges provided in instanced dungeons or raids, there are not many alternatives left to provide the players with funny and cool combat challenges without pvp. The openess of epic bosses to the world without the possibility of players dispute it through fights between them would preclude the tactical and challenging aspect of fighting bosses. These fights would be a zerg of thousand of players trying to tag or take the most credit from a easy boss kill. With open pvp the players can at least have the challenge of expelling others players, keeping them away while a minor group kill the boss.

3- Without instanced content, the gathering of itens, farming of mobs and killing of elites/bosses would occur through a zerg of players in a crowded open world area. The whole thing would be to decide who "tags" the itens first or who can hit more the targets, earning more credits. Even if the developers make the respawn rate very high (or instant respawns), the whole proccess would be far dumber and boring than themepark instances.

4- Without ow pvp, many metagame content arised from players disputes that originate political, diplomatic, social, moral and economical complexities (e.g: carismatic power or leadership, spying, sabotage, betrayals, big rivalries and fellowships, reputations with real consequences, etc) would be damaged or even wouldn't exists. The mmo would be only a bunch of players gathering itens and building stuff that would have little or none use besides the cosmetic, without challenges and still jammed by the crowd in the proccess. Anyway, this would be way less fun than themepark instanced stuff and the created things (buildings, gear, etc) would have little use and meaning. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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Comments

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,609Member Uncommon

    And open world PVP focused sandbox MMos already have worse retention than themeparks.

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    And open world PVP focused sandbox MMos already have worse retention than themeparks.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/373227/Theme-Park-Trap.html

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • vmopedvmoped Athens, GAPosts: 1,708Member

    Not to be snarky, but name one ow pvp mmo that has done well?  Only one I can even recall doing any business at this point is Darkfall, and it is not doing well.  Shadowbane, dead, Old UO, dead, SWG, dead, Mourning, aborted, etc... So many have died, yet so many themeparks thrive. 

    Cheers!

    MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  • DocBrodyDocBrody EldridgePosts: 1,820Member
    A sandbox without OW PvP can't even be called sandbox. Would still be a themepark just with more fluff.
  • DocBrodyDocBrody EldridgePosts: 1,820Member
    Originally posted by vmoped

    Not to be snarky, but name one ow pvp mmo that has done well?  Only one I can even recall doing any business at this point is Darkfall, and it is not doing well.  Shadowbane, dead, Old UO, dead, SWG, dead, Mourning, aborted, etc... So many have died, yet so many themeparks thrive. 

    Cheers!

    name one which wasn't developed on a shoestring budget!

    oh yeah theme parks thrive.. that's why they went F2P left and right and EvE has half a million subs.

    lol

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by vmoped

    Not to be snarky, but name one ow pvp mmo that has done well? 

     

    I remember at moment three: Lineage 2, UO and EvE.

     

     

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • bubbabillbubbabill beloit, WIPosts: 80Member
    Originally posted by DocBrody
    Originally posted by vmoped

    Not to be snarky, but name one ow pvp mmo that has done well?  Only one I can even recall doing any business at this point is Darkfall, and it is not doing well.  Shadowbane, dead, Old UO, dead, SWG, dead, Mourning, aborted, etc... So many have died, yet so many themeparks thrive. 

    Cheers!

    name one which wasn't developed on a shoestring budget!

    oh yeah theme parks thrive.. that's why they went F2P left and right and EvE has half a million subs.

    lol

    out of those million subs how many do you think are owned by the same person.  i know in eve people have up to 5 or more accounts. 

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by DocBrody
    A sandbox without OW PvP can't even be called sandbox. Would still be a themepark just with more fluff.

     

    I think OW PVP is essential to a sandbox provide "player created" challenges and fun in all aspects.

     

     

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by bubbabill
    Originally posted by DocBrody
    Originally posted by vmoped

    Not to be snarky, but name one ow pvp mmo that has done well?  Only one I can even recall doing any business at this point is Darkfall, and it is not doing well.  Shadowbane, dead, Old UO, dead, SWG, dead, Mourning, aborted, etc... So many have died, yet so many themeparks thrive. 

    Cheers!

    name one which wasn't developed on a shoestring budget!

    oh yeah theme parks thrive.. that's why they went F2P left and right and EvE has half a million subs.

    lol

    out of those million subs how many do you think are owned by the same person.  i know in eve people have up to 5 or more accounts. 

    EvE is P2P, so if people bother to pay 5 times it is a advertisement  supporting the game and not againts it. A themepark F2P should have the triple of same person of accounts.

    And since the discussion is about retention rate (and not the playerbase numbers by itself), its favours completely EvE.

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    UO's population increased when they added a world that wasn't OW PvP focused. SWG didn't have the Theme Park Trap when it opened. They didn't have issues until they changed the whole game.

    History suggests that sandboxes without OW PvP can maintain a stable population just fine. More recent sandbox games like ATiTD and Ryzom, though small, have a relatively stable population and have had that population for a very long time.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

     

    We all know that themeparks post-WoW have a problem with the retention rate of players (the already discussed "themepark trap"), that they start with a big burst in subscriptions and after some months (when the people reach the "endgame") the playerbase falls fast.

    Well, i think sandboxes without ow meaningful pvp can have a even worse fall in the playerbase than these themeparks, since:

     

    1- Themeparks can put their "carrots" in instanced areas, which allow them multiply by hundreds or thousands the real in-game "content" available to the players. Sandboxes in the other hand will have to provide all their pve content (at least the best) in the open world, which restricts dramatically the amount of "pve content" (that works as "tools" to pursue the "carrots") available to players.

    2- Outside the structured and "dramatized" challenges provided in instanced dungeons or raids, there are not many alternatives left to provide the players with funny and cool combat challenges without pvp. The openess of epic bosses to the world without the possibility of players dispute it through fights between them would preclude the tactical and challenging aspect of fighting bosses. These fights would be a zerg of thousand of players trying to tag or take the most credit from a easy boss kill. With open pvp the players can at least have the challenge of expelling others players, keeping them away while a minor group kill the boss.

    3- Without instanced content, the gathering of itens, farming of mobs and killing of elites/bosses would occur through a zerg of players in a crowded open world area. The whole thing would be to decide who "tags" the itens first or who can hit more the targets, earning more credits. Even if the developers make the respawn rate very high (or instant respawns), the whole proccess would be far dumber and boring than themepark instances.

    4- Without ow pvp, many metagame content arised from players disputes that originate political, diplomatic, social, moral and economical complexities (e.g: carismatic power or leadership, spying, sabotage, betrayals, big rivalries and fellowships, reputations with real consequences, etc) would be damaged or even wouldn't exists. The mmo would be only a bunch of players gathering itens and building stuff that would have little or none use besides the cosmetic, without challenges and still jammed by the crowd in the proccess. Anyway, this would be way less fun than themepark instanced stuff and the created things (buildings, gear, etc) would have little use and meaning. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    It's not really a sandbox if there isn't owpvp...sandbox you should have total control.  The more restraints you have on the player, the less of a sandbox it is.

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
    "You're either with us or against us"

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    UO's population increased when they added a world that wasn't OW PvP focused.

    The themepark trap is characterized by a initial big burst in the playerbase followed by a fast decline some time later (when they reach the "endgame"). Sandboxes, in the other hand, usually have a steady growing in time (the game become "richer" with more players and their contents).  This usually occurs if nothing external have a bigger influence.

     

     

     

     

    SWG didn't have the Theme Park Trap when it opened. They didn't have issues until they changed the whole game.

     

    The themepark trap is a post-WoW issue (more specifically with the wow-clones, that try but cant compete with the original).

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    :scans topics on page 1:

    My goodness, are the Internet Prophets of Doom having a convention?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,121Member Uncommon
    As far as I'm concerned, you are never going to find players embracing owpvp in any form if the game requires a lot of time investment.  I'm sure owpvp can do well in the MMOFPS, MMORTS and MMOAA arenas, but good luck finding a large welcome or any welcome at all from audiences of a MMORPG.  The huge investments in time, character development, loot and wealth acquisition and story of an RPG are major deterrents to pvp and even more so with owpvp.

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    As far as I'm concerned, you are never going to find players embracing owpvp in any form if the game requires a lot of time investment.  I'm sure owpvp can do well in the MMOFPS, MMORTS and MMOAA arenas, but good luck finding a large welcome or any welcome at all from audiences of a MMORPG.  The huge investments in time, character development, loot and wealth acquisition and story of an RPG are major deterrents to pvp and even more so with owpvp.

    We think differently. I think ow pvp and its consequences can be a strong motivator to players develop their characters and keep their interest in game after they reach the "cap" (if there be one).

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I'm beginning to wonder if the people on the site are even capable of discussing anything but this one topic over and over. How many times have each of you responded to the same people and said the same things in multiple threads about the same topic.

     

  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd. Hell, CAPosts: 806Member Uncommon

    Seems like panic is starting to creep in with these continuous whine threads about pvp.

     

    Relax pve people you have tons of games already released that are designed exactly the way you want them.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    Seems like panic is starting to creep in with these continuous whine threads about pvp.

     

    Relax pve people you have tons of games already released that are designed exactly the way you want them.

    hmmm and I would say the opposite. Well, two more days.

  • StrommStromm BrisbanePosts: 243Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    I'm beginning to wonder if the people on the site are even capable of discussing anything but this one topic over and over. How many times have each of you responded to the same people and said the same things in multiple threads about the same topic.

     

    Well to be fair, it's the same story for the continuously recycled topics relating to EQN.

    Instances are the work of Satan!

    P2P is for da dummies, F2P is fo da smarties!

    A Multi-boxer stole my baby!

    Won't somebody think of the Bots!?!1?one!

    Favourite class/zone/town/boss/lore from EQ/EQ2/SWG/DAoC/UO?

    What colour do you want your ogres ballsack to be?

    Ok I may have made that last one up, but give it time.

    Not defending this topic since it basically amounts to a pre-teen sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "NANANANANANA I can't hear you!", but still its endemic across the entire site, including the paid staff. It's like there's a word cloud somewhere with 10 words and you can only make topics/articles on this site from those 10 words.

    Almost no discussion/debate about Storybricks, shared intersect worlds between the different games, mobile platform integration, breaking away from the PnP paradigm,  etc.

    This site has become a case study for developers on why you do not ever listen to the players.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Humm, ever hear of this game called SWG.  Pretty certain it was a universally loved MMO.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Since reliable stats are hard to come by, I can only go by personal experience.

    Can I promise that I'm a good representative of a whole demographic waiting out there?  No.

    Can I promise that I'm about to jump on any passing bandwagon?  No.

    But UO Trammel kept me happily entertained for quite a few years and I still have many fond memories of it.

    Lately I've been wandering procedurally generated landscapes of Minecraft a fair amount.

    I can imagine worlds I'd enjoy even more.

     

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DocBrody
    A sandbox without OW PvP can't even be called sandbox. Would still be a themepark just with more fluff.

    This tired and worn out argument will never hold water, as PvP does not make a sandbox.  FFA PvP or PvP for that matter  has not, does not, will not ever be part of the definition of the word sandbox.  No matter how you much it you wish it to be.

     

    Sandbox is open world, non linear gaming with the player having 100% freedom of choice in how he plays.  Asheron's Call is a sandbox, Just Cause 2 is a sandbox, Skyrim is a sandbox, GTA is a sandbox, Saints Row is a sandbox, etc.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd. Hell, CAPosts: 806Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin

     Sandbox is open world, non linear gaming with the player having 100% freedom of choice in how he plays.  Asheron's Call is a sandbox, Just Cause 2 is a sandbox, Skyrim is a sandbox, GTA is a sandbox, Saints Row is a sandbox, etc.

    So if I cannot chop your head off it is not 100% freedom of choice. So pvp must be included to have complete total freedom of choice.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Saxx0n
    Originally posted by azzamasin  Sandbox is open world, non linear gaming with the player having 100% freedom of choice in how he plays.  Asheron's Call is a sandbox, Just Cause 2 is a sandbox, Skyrim is a sandbox, GTA is a sandbox, Saints Row is a sandbox, etc.
    So if I cannot chop your head off it is not 100% freedom of choice. So pvp must be included to have complete total freedom of choice.


    Having freedom in choosing how you play doesn't mean you get to choose how other people play.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd. Hell, CAPosts: 806Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    Originally posted by azzamasin  Sandbox is open world, non linear gaming with the player having 100% freedom of choice in how he plays.  Asheron's Call is a sandbox, Just Cause 2 is a sandbox, Skyrim is a sandbox, GTA is a sandbox, Saints Row is a sandbox, etc.
    So if I cannot chop your head off it is not 100% freedom of choice. So pvp must be included to have complete total freedom of choice.

    Having freedom in choosing how you play doesn't mean you get to choose how other people play.

     

    I think we have a paradox here.

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