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What's people's problem with instances.

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  • xerxaxxerxax San Francisco, CAPosts: 5Member

    For what it's worth, the two games I play are Eve and DDO, which I like for different reasons.   I hate the PvE in Eve, but love its player-based economy and PvP.  I appreciate the PVE in DDO and also the instancing as a way to cooperate with other players in a way that I don't have to worry about other people coming along and disrupting whatever challenge we've decided to take on.  I don't PvP at all in DDO and I'd love it if DDO's open world was more of a sandbox.  

    Personally, I'm keeping an eye on EQNext and hoping that it has the complexity of character creation of DDO, the aforementioned instancing, combined with a sandbox open world and player-based economy.  If that's what it turns out to be, count me in.

     

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Furthermore .... If you are in a raid instance set for 10/20........ What do you do is 15 people want to raid that night? or better yet, 30 or even 40..  Who gets to tell some to GO HOME, the raid is full...... That doesn't sound very social.. and as for the people saying they hate to "wait".. Well every raid instance game I've seen uses LOCKOUTS.. so if you are not in the first team, you WAIT another week to get a chance.... hmmmmmmm POT meet KETTLE

    I am not sure if that was aimed at me, since I was talking mainly about shared dungeons (at least in the more recent posts).

     

    That being said, as i've been an officer and former leader of a casual raid guild in EQ2, i am well-positioned to answer your question.    Majority of raids in EQ2 are set for 24 players.   Any given raid day (my guild raids twice a week), we have between 18 and 26 people that show up.   If we get 26 (which is rare, since we work hard - "socially" - to keep our roster at around 30), 2 people will sit. Who sits depends on who has volunteered,  on what classes are required for any given encounter and (less so) on a person's rank in the guild.  The people that sit are still eligible for loot and share of the money earned by the raid.  Eventually we'll switch around who sits so that everyone gets to play.    Having too many is quite rare for us.    If we have too few, we pick the most difficult content that we can do with that amount of people.  There are many different raids in EQ2 and even though they are designed for a maximum of 24, they can be done with anything from a few people to the max of 24.  

     

    It's very much like being on a baseball team (i play on two baseball teams, so the analogy always comes to mind).  Both my teams have 14 players.  For any given game, 8 to 12 show up.  If 8 show up, we play shorthanded or get subs.  If 12 show up, people take turns sitting.  But you can't play baseball with more than 9 on the field, the rules don't allow it.  It's pretty much identical.  

     

    As far as lockouts, EQ2's raid zones are "persistent", so once you open one up, you can go in and our with different people for 5-10 days.  There are lockouts, which are 3-5 days.  For most "casual" guilds like mine, there are more than enough zones that you don't need to worry about not having something to do.  it would take more time to do every single raid than most guilds dedicate to raiding in a week.  (There are super hardcore guilds that can either dedidcate more time or that are just very awesome and get it all done super-quick, but i'm talking about casual/average)

     

    As far as it being social - it is EXTREMELY social.  Having been in the guilds that i've been over the past 8 years in EQ2 is the main reason i've stayed with EQ2 even though many games with better individual gameplay elements have emerged.  

     

    So yeah.. it's a bit of a tangent, but hopefully i answered your questions.

     

    p.s  This is in no way different from open world raids, which are also limited to 24 people.  So if a contested open-world mob spawns for us, it's handled the same way.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

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  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    You haven't explained why the different groups would need to communicate. Yes, obviously they can't, but why do they need to? If a group is in an instance, and they can't communicate with another group someplace else, what are they missing out on besides the communication?

    Funny you should mention Rift as a game I'm not familiar with.

    If a player wants to participate in instanced content, and they aren't participating in open world content, then they aren't missing out. They are expressing a preference.

     

          Well there you go.. I think that last sentence says it all.. (Freudian slip).. Did it ever concern you that the other players in your instance group MIGHT want the opportunity to take down the rare big bad boss?  NO.. Because the game is all about YOU..I think you look at today's games as private single player games with you in control..  Would you even consider a game that has NO INSTANCING at all?   

     

    I'm sure they all want to take down the rare big boss. They are 77th in line...

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Vineland, NJPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    A scenario which happens quite often in completely open zone MMOs with "camping".

    You arrive with your guild at some boss spawn deep in a dungeon first. You guys setup camp, and start the wait.

    4 hours 50 minutes later, some other guild arrives. You start to discuss with them about "first come, first served", but the guys don't care, they say "who kills gets the loot".

    5 hours later, the boss spawns, the douchebag guild tags him first, does the most damage, and gets the rewards, while your complete guild just wasted 5 hours for nothing, not even a good fight.

    Anyone pretending it's fun can't be anything else than masochistic.

    Dungeons can be open, but the major bosses must be instanced.

    Bad game design is bad game design. Instancing or otherwise. 

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

    Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • quseioquseio stevens, PAPosts: 222Member

     I would rather not have housing personally, if it is instanced, just give me a bigger bank.  It feels like a secret closet to me, not a house when it is instanced.  I say this personally, but I know people do like it too, but that is my feelings on it.  It being instanced ruins it being my characters house, and it is no better than a bank in my mind at that point.

     

    eq1 didit good imo  yes the neighborhoods where instanced copies  but anyone could  come into that instance,  houseing isnt good if anyone can build houses anywhere i dont want to see some shack in the middle of blackburrow

     

    as ive said before as long as they go light on the instanceing and dont use it for  everything its ok, just use it for important access quests imo

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

    Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

    I'm sure they do.

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    I really don't get this hate towards instances. MMORPG.com now has an article "What we don't want in EQnext: Instances".

    I don't know who this "we" is. People who never played EQ?

    The best expansions in Everquest were the heavily instanced ones.

    LDON-OOW (proving grounds trials+pizza instances)-DoN-DoD (amazing expansion, also the best looking one imo)

    Let alone all the raid instances, which were actually a huge improvement over the mob ganking and drama caused on the server.

    GoD group instances, one of the most fun and rewarding content you could find. Ask anyone what the most fun group content was and many will say LDON, DoD, MPG trials and the freeport Badge Arena battle. All instanced.

    I have no idea why some people don't want instances. If done right, they are great.

    The OWPVP community is where the love lost for instances mostly comes from.  More times than not a game with instances puts so much emphasis on them, that there is no need to be in the open world...which kills the owpvp.  Look at Tera for example...they've put so much into their instances, that the open world is dead other than safezones.

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  • vmopedvmoped Athens, GAPosts: 1,708Member

    In my opinion, instances take away from the open world feel of games.  Every mmo I play that adds more and more instance content results in less and less people actually playing in the open world.  Look at WoW now:  The entire over world is just a large lobby for group finder.  If I wanted a lobby game I would go buy a single player game with multiplayer function and skip the cash shops and sub fees.

    Cheers!

    MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Sacramento, CAPosts: 159Member

    Of course there is nothing wrong with instancing, as long as it's balanced.  People tend to express things as either black or white, when balance is the key.

    Besides, it's not instancing that detroyed communities anyway, it's cross-server and Looking for group tools that did that.  When it's just your one server and the only way to get a group is to actually...gasp..talk to people, it's plenty social.  You found a group, you all traveled to the instance (no instant porting) and you went in.  Because it was all one server, people were better behaved because you could destroy your reputation on a server by being an Ass-hat. 

    Instanced dungeons were plenty social. 

    The key is balance.  There is nothing wrong with providing people with instances where they can group with their buddies and tackle content without worrying about being griefed or ganked.  There should also be plenty of open-world dungeons and random spawning bosses as well.

  • NavinJohnsonNavinJohnson albquerque, NMPosts: 60Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

    Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

    I'm sure they do.

    People cry out for change because they are bored.........change it back to the way it was!

     

    :)

     

     

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

    Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

    I'm sure they do.

     

    Yep, I leave the money on the table after each night...

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by SirBalin

    The OWPVP community is where the love lost for instances mostly comes from.  More times than not a game with instances puts so much emphasis on them, that there is no need to be in the open world...which kills the owpvp.  Look at Tera for example...they've put so much into their instances, that the open world is dead other than safezones.

    But since most implementations of OWPVP suck anyway (the Holy Grail of PVP, always searched for but never found), is all of the hate inspired by a rainbow chase?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by lizardbones   You haven't explained why the different groups would need to communicate. Yes, obviously they can't, but why do they need to? If a group is in an instance, and they can't communicate with another group someplace else, what are they missing out on besides the communication? Funny you should mention Rift as a game I'm not familiar with. If a player wants to participate in instanced content, and they aren't participating in open world content, then they aren't missing out. They are expressing a preference.  
          Well there you go.. I think that last sentence says it all.. (Freudian slip).. Did it ever concern you that the other players in your instance group MIGHT want the opportunity to take down the rare big bad boss?  NO.. Because the game is all about YOU..I think you look at today's games as private single player games with you in control..  Would you even consider a game that has NO INSTANCING at all?   


    If I was in an instance with other people, my assumption would be they were there because they wanted to be there, not because I somehow mind controlled them into being there.

    I've played and enjoyed games that don't have any instancing. I don't particularly like instances, and when I do go, it's because my friends want to go, not because I want to be in an instance. I am, in fact, one of the people who would rather kill bosses out in the open world on pvp servers rather than spend time in instances.

    I'm not "Pro Instance", your arguments are just bad.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by bronick

    People cry out for change because they are bored.........change it back to the way it was!

    Does seem to be a gamer paradigm that we just can't ditch.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Vineland, NJPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by arieste
    Originally posted by Rydeson

              So again, give me a good SOCIAL reason why people should instance other then for SINGLE player experience or private group limitations.. 

    to prevent over-crowding.  of an area, a zone, an npc, an encounter, a town, whatever.   

     

    Anything that exists in the game world has an ideal number of players that it's designed for.  If you have double that number of players, it stops working well, resulting in a poor social experience.  Instancing solves that by preventing the over-crowding.   See my "20 seat romantic restaurant" example a couple of posts back.

     

    As you said, anything that can be done in an instance - including the private single-player experiences - can be done out in the open-world.  The only that can't be done, is population control.  Well, that can too.. i guess, by having fences and things, but it's kinda weird to execute.  It would be awkward to get to the Qeynos gates and be told "sorry, Qeynos is full, please wait"

    i just don't get it. You want instancing to reduces crowding? There is to many people around? Your one of those people that get pissed right away when there are to many people around the AH nps and you cant click on them fast enough arent you?

     

    You just want a very quaint, safe, gaming experience and im sorry, thats not indicative to what a MMO is. You want a multi player lobby rpg not a full on MMO. MMO cities should be filled with other players off doing their thing. passing you in the street or talking to another npc or doing a job, crafting, the list goes on and on. 

     

    You want population control? Leave that up to the pop a sever can hold and let the chip fall where they may. removing instances, you'll never get a notice saying Qeynos is full. Qeynos should NEVER BE FULL!!!!

     

    An open, full world with helpfull people and jerkoffs. Thats the game im hoping EQN will be. 

     

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

    Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

    I'm sure they do.

     

    Yep, I leave the money on the table after each night...

    A true gentleman image

  • Sleepy-SleepeeSleepy-Sleepee Staten Island, NYPosts: 5Member

      I'm an old school MMO'er starting back with UO and here's my take on the issue. I want EQN to have both open world dungeons and instance versions of the dungeons. Although I agree that too much instancing is bad thing for the community I still think wisely, lightly used instancing has it place and should be used when required (or limited see example I give a bit later).

      Old Sebilis had to be my favorite dungeon of all time, so I know the importance and would love to experience that atmosphere once again. I also wouldn't mind having the opportunity to have the entire zone to myself or my group(s) to see how far we could get on our own, you know see what we could accomplish.

      I also remember how fun pvp was in WOW before they put in BG's. They actually had better RPs reward for fighting in the BG than in the world which caused all the pvpers to funnel into them (sorry I forgot the actual term WOW used so RPS which maybe from DAOC). The world zones went to ghost towns for pvp action the only people left in the world were people trying to do their quest lines which made me feel like I was griefing.

      A good example of how an instance can be implemented:

    Let say a Dungeon is pretty much full of groups, and no established camps/rooms/areas are available let the players choose to create an instance version... As a deterrent in the instance version I would give all the Mobs increased hps ( maybe +15-20%), you could also ramp up the mobs dps or abilities, maybe you can turn off all the rare loot from dropping, and as a reward maybe if you clear the entire zone within a certain timeframe you can pick a your reward from any of the mobs loot tables in the zone- one time only per character of course no drop no trade.)

    Finally you can tie the opening of the instance into a class ability or better yet crafting, maybe you need some rare object that needs to be manipulate/harnessed.

     

     

     

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Vineland, NJPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Originally posted by xAPOCx

    An open, full world with helpfull people and jerkoffs. Thats the game im hoping EQN will be. 

     

    So lock yourself in a room all alone. There will be four jerkoffs in that room.

    You, and the thing you do three times a day.

    What a worthless and stupid comment. 

    image

  • NavinJohnsonNavinJohnson albquerque, NMPosts: 60Member
    Originally posted by Sleepy-Sleepee

      I'm an old school MMO'er starting back with UO and here's my take on the issue. I want EQN to have both open world dungeons and instance versions of the dungeons. Although I agree that too much instancing is bad thing for the community I still think wisely, lightly used instancing has it place and should be used when required (or limited see example I give a bit later).

      Old Sebilis had to be my favorite dungeon of all time, so I know the importance and would love to experience that atmosphere once again. I also wouldn't mind having the opportunity to have the entire zone to myself or my group(s) to see how far we could get on our own, you know see what we could accomplish.

      I also remember how fun pvp was in WOW before they put in BG's. They actually had better RPs reward for fighting in the BG than in the world which caused all the pvpers to funnel into them (sorry I forgot the actual term WOW used so RPS which maybe from DAOC). The world zones went to ghost towns for pvp action the only people left in the world were people trying to do their quest lines which made me feel like I was griefing.

      A good example of how an instance can be implemented:

    Let say a Dungeon is pretty much full of groups, and no established camps/rooms/areas are available let the players choose to create an instance version... As a deterrent in the instance version I would give all the Mobs increased hps ( maybe +15-20%), you could also ramp up the mobs dps or abilities, maybe you can turn off all the rare loot from dropping, and as a reward maybe if you clear the entire zone within a certain timeframe you can pick a your reward from any of the mobs loot tables in the zone- one time only per character of course no drop no trade.)

    Finally you can tie the opening of the instance into a class ability or better yet crafting, maybe you need some rare object that needs to be manipulate/harnessed.

     

     

     

    I think this is a neat idea. Give people an option. Open zones are contested, but, the loot drops are better or rarer. Instanced, not so much.

    Cool idea :)

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common
    Originally posted by xAPOCx

    You want population control? Leave that up to the pop a sever can hold and let the chip fall where they may. removing instances, you'll never get a notice saying Qeynos is full. Qeynos should NEVER BE FULL!!!! 

    This implies using multiple server technology, which creates multiple copies of the same world and PERMANENTLY separates people from each other.   I want neither multiple copies of the world which i can't travel to, nor to be permanently separated from others that play the game.    I want everyone in the same world, even if it's not all at the same time.

     

    I guess it's a matter of preference.  You'd rather have 50 other copies of Norrath that you can never visit, i'd rather have 50 other copies of Antonica that all belong to the same Norrath and that i can travel to.  There is no right or wrong answer.  You prefer one, i prefer the other - probably for much the same reasons.

     

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
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  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member

    Are people fighting for OPEN WORLD because of PvP? What if it's not a PvP server?

     

    Would that change your immersion level? (does seeing other groups fighting wolves while you kill bears make it more immersive?)

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 812Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sleepy-Sleepee

    Let say a Dungeon is pretty much full of groups, and no established camps/rooms/areas are available let the players choose to create an instance version... As a deterrent in the instance version I would give all the Mobs increased hps ( maybe +15-20%), you could also ramp up the mobs dps or abilities, maybe you can turn off all the rare loot from dropping, and as a reward maybe if you clear the entire zone within a certain timeframe you can pick a your reward from any of the mobs loot tables in the zone- one time only per character of course no drop no trade.)

    Finally you can tie he opening of the instance into a class ability or better yet crafting, maybe you need some rare object that needs to be manipulate/harnessed.

     

    You are missing the point. You are taking the PvPers at their word. They don't want no-instancing so they can feel immersed, or socialize, or anything else they lie about. They want it because they are tired of PvP only games that build systems to curb their nonsense, that balance everyone so skill is the only determiner of a winner with other players that are equipped and ready for a confrontation, and exploits and cheats are strictly policed.

    They want a system where the devs leave room for trust that they can exploit. Where the average player is expecting teamwork, and they can betray that. They want a system unprepared for their mental illnesses so they can get their sociopathic thrill. In a phrase they want to destroy what you enjoy.

    Don't think so? Then why aren't they off playing a pure PvP sandbox and not here trying to subvert another proposed game into a 'open world'? It's not like there aren't any PvP sandbox MMOs.

     

     

     

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


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  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by arieste
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Can you use "shared" and "instance" in the same sentence? I am confused...

     

    Yes.. example... Antonica in EQ2....  

     

    You can have an instance for a thousand people.  Or ten thousand.   All instancing does it allow to limit it to whatever number you decided is appropriate and then create a new copy once the population demand exceeds the limit. 

     

    Incorrect.. it can be used for that, but it's main purpose is to offload the actual developer cost of having that exact same area larger and with more content. Instancing is a crutch that developers have relied on too long, so much so that now every game has no game world, just rooms..!

     

    Instancing isn't good, or bad. That is determined when/how a developers uses it.

    *If you are doing a quest w/friends and you open a chest (ZAP).. u get ported away from them (into an instance) where some quest, or story gets played out... = great use of instancing.

    *If Developer's built their game so cheaply that they need to re-use already known dungeons and double... triple.. them up as an instance..  so their player base doesn't know how cheaply they made the game = bad use of instancing.

     

     

     

    Instancing should be used sparingly and only when it's used for added role-playing, etc. Not as a logistical crutch...!

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon

    The whole thing with instances is that it's a scripted experience.

    The instance is set up to be about its main presentation.

    People who aren't interested in instances probably remember a time when being out in the world could produce a more unexpected experience.

    Whether it be a pvp experience such as cresting a hill where a known boss was only to not only discover your enemy but "your enemy in force"

    or a pve experience such as accidentally aggroing too many mobs and having passersby get you out of a tough spot.

    Heck, I remember a time when I died, dropped my map. spawned in an unknown town and had to make my way back only to get lost in the wilderness.only to get into an area that was too dangerous, having a passing player help me and give me directions. It was one of my first mmo adventures and it was great.

    The issue here is not instances vs non-instanced. The issue here is that you have two camps of players arguing their tastes.

    For some instances fall flat. For some, they are into the "game" portion of mmo's and don't care about the emergent gameplay that an open world offers.

     

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