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Payment model - Box Sales & Subs more or less confirmed

2

Comments

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,743Member Uncommon
    8 years in development? That seems like an awfully long time to make a game...Also if its box and sub I wont even look at it.....No way am I paying 100 bucks for a game anymore, especially with 100s of free options out there now.
  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    8 years in development? That seems like an awfully long time to make a game...Also if its box and sub I wont even look at it.....No way am I paying 100 bucks for a game anymore, especially with 100s of free options out there now.

    They started from scratch.  New IP, new everything, including an in house engine.

     

    Quality takes times!

    You get what you pay for.  Most of those free options are free for a reason.

  • malamor666malamor666 Middletown, NYPosts: 4Member
    I hope they include a downloadable trial. Play to level X or whatever. Then purchase the download and sub. My days of blind faith game buying are over for MMO's.
  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by keithian
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

     

    This game won't be P2W.

     

    If you were 2/10, after hearing all the amazing stuff this game has to offer, then you weren't interested to start with.  Why are you even here?

     Have no idea what you are talking about with the ESO devs making it sound like a chore lol. Really not tied to any sort of reality.

    Well hopefully this game will be as good as the ridiculous hype because I don't get your digs into ESO which is a game that seems to be on the surface appealing to the RPG crowd with meaningful PVE and PVP and not some leading someone by a leash with combat circles and arrows saying...go explore.....but make sure you follow the arrow and look for those special exclamation points so you can do a kill x quest that nobody will read or care about.  I'm about to find out to some degree the reason for the hype around Wildstar..though there is an NDA I believe...so I'll have to respect that...who knows...maybe I'll be special and be capable of liking and supporting two games...or maybe it will fit the vibe they give off thats its targeted for the under 18 crowd..hope not.

    As far as the payment model, I think I like BTP with a sub option as long as the Cash shop isn't PTW. Unlike a lot of cheapoos in these forums I'll pay a monthly fee for any game that I enjoy..though I really think this $15 a month is ridiculous and they should make it the same price as a Netflix Subscription. Maybe they will.

    Ok, this is the first interview I found on ESO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e4gv_GW5gs

    I almost went to sleep listening to him talk.  If it weren't for the lies I heard, I probably would have.

     

    First WS interview I found,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDfQEhnHFak

    He is lively and actually looks like he is enjoying his time spent talking about the game.

  • StrangerousStrangerous ny, ILPosts: 165Member

    Maybe they should change it to "fifty cents a day sub" rather than $15 a month.

    I mean has western civilization degraded so much in the last 20 years that two quarters a day has become outrageous and expensive for some?

     

    Sad I can remember back when money was actually worth more, dollar gas, could buy a softdrink with a single dollar and get change back...ect...two quarters in an arcade machine a day?  No problem!

    Fast forward 20 years and I cant buy shit for a dollar, gas costs like $5 a gallon, and people are actually bitching about wasting two quarters a day on a game they play 10+ hours a week for months.

     

    I mean i bet half you complaining lose $50 in change a day to couches, laundry, dropping the coins.

     

    Its really quite sad to be honest.

    Im just glad i didn't pick up programming as a skill and go into game making...how insulting that so many demand my labor be free.

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by furbans

    [mod edit]  P2W is subjective at times it seems and really when push comes to shove they will go down the route for profit 9 times out of 10.

    P2W isn't that subjective.  To say otherwise is just PR spin after the fact.

     

    Just because some shit MMOs didn't mention the fact they were P2W, and then turned out to be, then all new games are automatically assumed to be P2W!  Even if they say they aren't...  Damn, that is a sad cynical pessimistic way to look at things.

    I don't get you guys.  If you say your game isn't P2W, then it isn't.  If you had some reason to doubt carbine, then I could understand.  A coupe dishonest people doesn't make everyone dishonest.   Seriously though, how else do you prove the game isn't P2W if plainly stating it isn't sufficient?  What level of proof do you need?

    P2W is very subjective.  Hell people were clamoring how even GW2 was "P2W" which is utter nonesense.

    I just won't be tooting your horn how a game will not be P2W when no details are given out.

    And it's not a couple of dishonest people, time n time again have I seen companies make the claim of "purely cosmetic and itme effeciency items" when in fact the opposite is true.  So much so that it has become a trend.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by furbans
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by furbans

    [mod edit]  P2W is subjective at times it seems and really when push comes to shove they will go down the route for profit 9 times out of 10.

    P2W isn't that subjective.  To say otherwise is just PR spin after the fact.

     

    Just because some shit MMOs didn't mention the fact they were P2W, and then turned out to be, then all new games are automatically assumed to be P2W!  Even if they say they aren't...  Damn, that is a sad cynical pessimistic way to look at things.

    I don't get you guys.  If you say your game isn't P2W, then it isn't.  If you had some reason to doubt carbine, then I could understand.  A coupe dishonest people doesn't make everyone dishonest.   Seriously though, how else do you prove the game isn't P2W if plainly stating it isn't sufficient?  What level of proof do you need?

    P2W is very subjective.  Hell people were clamoring how even GW2 was "P2W" which is utter nonesense.

    I just won't be tooting your horn how a game will not be P2W when no details are given out.

    And it's not a couple of dishonest people, time n time again have I seen companies make the claim of "purely cosmetic and itme effeciency items" when in fact the opposite is true.  So much so that it has become a trend.

    The definition of P2W is pretty standard actually.  Just because you saw one idiot make a post that GW2 was P2W means nothing.  I could probably find a post that says WoW is P2W. 

     

    It doesn't matter how many dishonest people you know.  Do you have any proof carbine is untrustworthy?

    Just ooc, do you think it is better for a company to declare it isn't P2W, or do you think it is better for them to not say anything?  Because it looks like you are just going to assume whatever you want regardless.

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 583Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
     

    Remember WAR?

    With any game you just dont know until it is released, whether B2P or P2P.

     

    I think the fact that NC Soft has shown with GW2 that you dont have to have an imbalanced CS is a good sign, but we wont know until W* is released.  It's as simple as that, just like any game.

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,589Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    The Payment model is most likely straighforward:

     

    F2P + Box (Optional Exclusive Item Sales + CS Currency) + Cash Shop (Optional Item Sales) + Sub (Optional Sub for bonus + CS Currency)

     

    This makes the game fully F2P, but with incentives to buy the box, sub for bonus, and then use the Cash Shop. No restrictions on content, but bonus items to make it easier/faster/better looking. Why should any game being launched today forgoe any of the monitization options that customers want.

    There is not a chance in hell the game is straight up F2P!

    The last quote on reddit practically tells you straight up that you will have to buy the box.

     

    More than likely this is the model,

    Buy Box

    Cash shop with only cosmetic items

    F2P or Subscription (Subs get CS currency and some other perks)

    Bah, this is just a matter of time. I do not disagree that they can make money by requiring a box (physical or virutal) sale to start... and then drop it 3 months in. I would be surprised if they did not already have this planned. There is no real advantage to B2P past the first few months of sales, and it converts to F2P very easily (no real changes, except the requirement to buy). This is why the box sales will basically be exclusive bonus items... which can be sold after they convert.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Superman0X
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    The Payment model is most likely straighforward:

     

    F2P + Box (Optional Exclusive Item Sales + CS Currency) + Cash Shop (Optional Item Sales) + Sub (Optional Sub for bonus + CS Currency)

     

    This makes the game fully F2P, but with incentives to buy the box, sub for bonus, and then use the Cash Shop. No restrictions on content, but bonus items to make it easier/faster/better looking. Why should any game being launched today forgoe any of the monitization options that customers want.

    There is not a chance in hell the game is straight up F2P!

    The last quote on reddit practically tells you straight up that you will have to buy the box.

     

    More than likely this is the model,

    Buy Box

    Cash shop with only cosmetic items

    F2P or Subscription (Subs get CS currency and some other perks)

    Bah, this is just a matter of time. I do not disagree that they can make money by requiring a box (physical or virutal) sale to start... and then drop it 3 months in. I would be surprised if they did not already have this planned. There is no real advantage to B2P past the first few months of sales, and it converts to F2P very easily (no real changes, except the requirement to buy). This is why the box sales will basically be exclusive bonus items... which can be sold after they convert.

    Actually there are 2 massive advantages to selling a box,

     

    #1

     

    #2

    You need the box sales to pay for the overwhelming cost of development!

     

    GW2 for instance has sold 2.6 million copies

    2.6 million sales * $60 = $156 million dollars

     

    That isn't chump change!

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,207Member Uncommon
    I don't mind paying an entry cost (box fee).  I hope the content and cash shops are setup like GW2, Tera, and Rift.  Those are my favorite games right now and I really like how they charge for them.  The prices are reasonable, there is some stuff in the cash shop I like, the content is open, and the subs (Rift and Tera only) are boosters not requirements.
  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by keithian
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

     

    This game won't be P2W.

     

    If you were 2/10, after hearing all the amazing stuff this game has to offer, then you weren't interested to start with.  Why are you even here?

     Have no idea what you are talking about with the ESO devs making it sound like a chore lol. Really not tied to any sort of reality.

    Well hopefully this game will be as good as the ridiculous hype because I don't get your digs into ESO which is a game that seems to be on the surface appealing to the RPG crowd with meaningful PVE and PVP and not some leading someone by a leash with combat circles and arrows saying...go explore.....but make sure you follow the arrow and look for those special exclamation points so you can do a kill x quest that nobody will read or care about.  I'm about to find out to some degree the reason for the hype around Wildstar..though there is an NDA I believe...so I'll have to respect that...who knows...maybe I'll be special and be capable of liking and supporting two games...or maybe it will fit the vibe they give off thats its targeted for the under 18 crowd..hope not.

    As far as the payment model, I think I like BTP with a sub option as long as the Cash shop isn't PTW. Unlike a lot of cheapoos in these forums I'll pay a monthly fee for any game that I enjoy..though I really think this $15 a month is ridiculous and they should make it the same price as a Netflix Subscription. Maybe they will.

    Ok, this is the first interview I found on ESO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e4gv_GW5gs

    I almost went to sleep listening to him talk.  If it weren't for the lies I heard, I probably would have.

     

    First WS interview I found,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDfQEhnHFak

    He is lively and actually looks like he is enjoying his time spent talking about the game.

    You are entitled to you opinion (I think you should check out my signature), but why bring the thread off topic by even mentioning ESO? A tone of voice in a video has nothing to do with payment options, so why cant you just talk about Wildstar instead of digging another game on an irrelevant topic? By the way, as of now, your first link has thumbs up by 88% of those responding, so it seems like most disagree with you. I actually liked the presenter better for Wildstar even though I felt he targeted my nieces more with expressions like 'super powerful' and ESO still seems more up my alley due to its more mature tone and look, but it was informative and a good video nonetheless.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I don't mind a box price but I wont preorder one. GW2 showed me that no matter how popular or well loved the game is there's always a chance you wont like it....and I didn't

    If it's going to be a b2p I'll be waiting to hear how the game plays and what types of features it has. I know enough about what I like to know what I hate.

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by fiontar

    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar.

    "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal.

    As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales.

    I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    NCsoft is just the publisher.  That doesn't mean diddly shit.  They are two completely different games made by two completely different game developers.

    GW2 only did good, because they intentionally didn't create any end game, or devote any resources to continually pumping out end game updates.  That is extremely expensive.  WS has 50-70% of its team devoted to doing just that!

    Just to clarify, Carbine, just like Arenanet, is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft. I assume they have a similar level of creative control, but NCSoft makes the business decisions, even if done so with input from the studio.

    I stand by my post and reasoning. Also, any variation on the GW2 business model may provide some insight into how NCSoft views the results of that model.

    My take is that the GW2 business model will be one of the most prominent business models for future MMOs, with straight F2P being the the other most prevalent. There seems to be some room for an optional monthly subscription with value added benefits in the mix, but it has to be truly optional. The once dominant P2P  model is making it's exit and once a few more major AAA titles opt out, that business model will likely die a rapid death.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • WildaboutwildstarWildaboutwildstar Space, VAPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by fiontar

    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by fiontar
    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar. "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal. As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales. I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    NCsoft is just the publisher.  That doesn't mean diddly shit.  They are two completely different games made by two completely different game developers.

    GW2 only did good, because they intentionally didn't create any end game, or devote any resources to continually pumping out end game updates.  That is extremely expensive.  WS has 50-70% of its team devoted to doing just that!

    Just to clarify, Carbine, just like Arenanet, is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft. I assume they have a similar level of creative control, but NCSoft makes the business decisions, even if done so with input from the studio.

    I stand by my post and reasoning. Also, any variation on the GW2 business model may provide some insight into how NCSoft views the results of that model.

    My take is that the GW2 business model will be one of the most prominent business models for future MMOs, with straight F2P being the the other most prevalent. There seems to be some room for an optional monthly subscription with value added benefits in the mix, but it has to be truly optional. The once dominant P2P  model is making it's exit and once a few more major AAA titles opt out, that business model will likely die a rapid death.

     

    Lets hope the hell not, because GW2 isn't a real MMO. In large part due to the business model they chose.

    There is absolutely no evidence that P2P is a dying model!
    Stop stating your opinions as facts!

    GW2 wasn't subscription based, because it was never designed to be from the start!
    That means no end game, no intention of updating end game. Over half of the WS staff is only working on end game! That is nearly HALF of their current development cost going to something GW2 barely spent any time on.
  • StayonboardStayonboard Vancouver, BCPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by Wildaboutwildstar
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by fiontar

    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar.

    "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal.

    As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales.

    I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    NCsoft is just the publisher.  That doesn't mean diddly shit.  They are two completely different games made by two completely different game developers.

    GW2 only did good, because they intentionally didn't create any end game, or devote any resources to continually pumping out end game updates.  That is extremely expensive.  WS has 50-70% of its team devoted to doing just that!

    Just to clarify, Carbine, just like Arenanet, is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft. I assume they have a similar level of creative control, but NCSoft makes the business decisions, even if done so with input from the studio.

    I stand by my post and reasoning. Also, any variation on the GW2 business model may provide some insight into how NCSoft views the results of that model.

    My take is that the GW2 business model will be one of the most prominent business models for future MMOs, with straight F2P being the the other most prevalent. There seems to be some room for an optional monthly subscription with value added benefits in the mix, but it has to be truly optional. The once dominant P2P  model is making it's exit and once a few more major AAA titles opt out, that business model will likely die a rapid death.

     

    Lets hope the hell not, because GW2 isn't a real MMO. In large part due to the business model they chose. There is absolutely no evidence that P2P is a dying model! Stop stating your opinions as facts! GW2 wasn't subscription based, because it was never designed to be from the start! That means no end game, no intention of updating end game. Over half of the WS staff is only working on end game! That is nearly HALF of their current development cost going to something GW2 barely spent any time on.

    I really have no idea what your trying to say here. What does P2P have to do with having end game content? 

    Guild wars makes PLENTY of money from their cash shop - and it's not pay to win either.... their lack of end game was a horrible mis-management of their development resources, but that isn't because they don't have a subscription. They have tons of money to implement more end game content they just choose to go with the living story route, which I could give two shits about personally even though I quite like GW2.

    Oh and lastly, how is it not an real MMO? I love how you say "GW2 isn't a real MMO" then blast the person for stating his opinions as fact LOL. Hypocrite much?

     

  • achesomaachesoma Portland, ORPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon

    I imagine the cash shop will be similar to Aion.  Will probably have mostly aesthetic items.  Since WS will have a wardrobe system, I'd imagine they could make some decent coin as long as items are reasonably priced. 

    image

  • WildaboutwildstarWildaboutwildstar Space, VAPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Stayonboard

    Originally posted by Wildaboutwildstar
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by fiontar
    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar. "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal. As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales. I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    NCsoft is just the publisher.  That doesn't mean diddly shit.  They are two completely different games made by two completely different game developers.

    GW2 only did good, because they intentionally didn't create any end game, or devote any resources to continually pumping out end game updates.  That is extremely expensive.  WS has 50-70% of its team devoted to doing just that!

    Just to clarify, Carbine, just like Arenanet, is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft. I assume they have a similar level of creative control, but NCSoft makes the business decisions, even if done so with input from the studio.

    I stand by my post and reasoning. Also, any variation on the GW2 business model may provide some insight into how NCSoft views the results of that model.

    My take is that the GW2 business model will be one of the most prominent business models for future MMOs, with straight F2P being the the other most prevalent. There seems to be some room for an optional monthly subscription with value added benefits in the mix, but it has to be truly optional. The once dominant P2P  model is making it's exit and once a few more major AAA titles opt out, that business model will likely die a rapid death.

     

    Lets hope the hell not, because GW2 isn't a real MMO. In large part due to the business model they chose. There is absolutely no evidence that P2P is a dying model! Stop stating your opinions as facts! GW2 wasn't subscription based, because it was never designed to be from the start! That means no end game, no intention of updating end game. Over half of the WS staff is only working on end game! That is nearly HALF of their current development cost going to something GW2 barely spent any time on.

    I really have no idea what your trying to say here. What does P2P have to do with having end game content? 

    Guild wars makes PLENTY of money from their cash shop - and it's not pay to win either.... their lack of end game was a horrible mis-management of their development resources, but that isn't because they don't have a subscription. They have tons of money to implement more end game content they just choose to go with the living story route, which I could give two shits about personally even though I quite like GW2.

    Oh and lastly, how is it not an real MMO? I love how you say "GW2 isn't a real MMO" then blast the person for stating his opinions as fact LOL. Hypocrite much?

     

     

    It seemed pretty simple. You are stating bad opinions and claiming they are facts. They are not. The p2p model is still solid, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

    GW2 was a cheap game to make, and to continue to develop content for. That is why it is profitable! Their lack of end game was not a horrible mismanagement. It was intentional. That is the type of game they tried to make. That is what you can always expect when an MMO is B2P.

    Yet, you claim you want more of this? Are you delusional? B2P is a MMO formula that will always result in a lackluster game, like GW2.

    Also note, that just because the servers are still up doesn't mean the game is making money. Lots of games maintain servers at a loss for years without any subsequent revenue other than a few additional box sales. You can't say they are making tons of money from their cash shop, unless you have actual evidence to support that.

    Its not a real MMO, because it has no end game content. It has no endurance! It doesn't meet the standards of massive. It is merely a single player game with some multiplayer.
  • StayonboardStayonboard Vancouver, BCPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by Wildaboutwildstar
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    Originally posted by Wildaboutwildstar
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by fiontar

    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar.

    "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal.

    As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales.

    I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    NCsoft is just the publisher.  That doesn't mean diddly shit.  They are two completely different games made by two completely different game developers.

    GW2 only did good, because they intentionally didn't create any end game, or devote any resources to continually pumping out end game updates.  That is extremely expensive.  WS has 50-70% of its team devoted to doing just that!

    Just to clarify, Carbine, just like Arenanet, is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft. I assume they have a similar level of creative control, but NCSoft makes the business decisions, even if done so with input from the studio.

    I stand by my post and reasoning. Also, any variation on the GW2 business model may provide some insight into how NCSoft views the results of that model.

    My take is that the GW2 business model will be one of the most prominent business models for future MMOs, with straight F2P being the the other most prevalent. There seems to be some room for an optional monthly subscription with value added benefits in the mix, but it has to be truly optional. The once dominant P2P  model is making it's exit and once a few more major AAA titles opt out, that business model will likely die a rapid death.

     

    Lets hope the hell not, because GW2 isn't a real MMO. In large part due to the business model they chose. There is absolutely no evidence that P2P is a dying model! Stop stating your opinions as facts! GW2 wasn't subscription based, because it was never designed to be from the start! That means no end game, no intention of updating end game. Over half of the WS staff is only working on end game! That is nearly HALF of their current development cost going to something GW2 barely spent any time on.

    I really have no idea what your trying to say here. What does P2P have to do with having end game content? 

    Guild wars makes PLENTY of money from their cash shop - and it's not pay to win either.... their lack of end game was a horrible mis-management of their development resources, but that isn't because they don't have a subscription. They have tons of money to implement more end game content they just choose to go with the living story route, which I could give two shits about personally even though I quite like GW2.

    Oh and lastly, how is it not an real MMO? I love how you say "GW2 isn't a real MMO" then blast the person for stating his opinions as fact LOL. Hypocrite much?

     

     

    It seemed pretty simple. You are stating bad opinions and claiming they are facts. They are not. The p2p model is still solid, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

     

     

    GW2 was a cheap game to make, and to continue to develop content for. That is why it is profitable! Their lack of end game was not a horrible mismanagement. It was intentional. That is the type of game they tried to make. That is what you can always expect when an MMO is B2P.

     

    Yet, you claim you want more of this? Are you delusional? B2P is a MMO formula that will always result in a lackluster game, like GW2.

     

    Also note, that just because the servers are still up doesn't mean the game is making money. Lots of games maintain servers at a loss for years without any subsequent revenue other than a few additional box sales. You can't say they are making tons of money from their cash shop, unless you have actual evidence to support that.

     

    Its not a real MMO, because it has no end game content. It has no endurance! It doesn't meet the standards of massive. It is merely a single player game with some multiplayer.

    Am I delusional? Only took you one post to get insulting eh? Boy you sure have a lot of assumptions about me when you don't really know what the fuck you're talking about.... I guess I should know better about posting on these forums. Full of people who know pretty much everything about online gaming but yet have never coded a day in their life. B2P is indeed very profitable, if it wasn't you wouldn't have CEO's and executives considering those payment methods as well. Ohhh right... you know more than those people too I'm sure. With your vast business knowledge and fully operational MMO that you've been working on in your studio. 

    And for the record, I'm not saying P2P is dead, far from it... in fact, you can charge people $20 dollar subs with an $80 dollar game if the game is actually a GOOD game to play and it wouldn't be an issue at all. It's all about the quality. But the fact that there's only about 15 games left on the market with this type of payment model SHOULD tell you something (I'm sure it doesn't, but it should). I also know GW2 is making money because their quarterly report indicates they are making money. You know, those funny stat things that they have to give investors during their conference calls?

    Yeahhh I know exactly where this thread is going. Rawr P2P is the ONLY model worth talking about and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong!!! Keep at it though, don't lose the good fight.... I'm done wasting my time on this site. 

     

  • WildaboutwildstarWildaboutwildstar Space, VAPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Stayonboard

    Originally posted by Wildaboutwildstar
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    Originally posted by Wildaboutwildstar
    Originally posted by fiontar
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by fiontar
    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar. "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal. As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales. I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    NCsoft is just the publisher.  That doesn't mean diddly shit.  They are two completely different games made by two completely different game developers.

    GW2 only did good, because they intentionally didn't create any end game, or devote any resources to continually pumping out end game updates.  That is extremely expensive.  WS has 50-70% of its team devoted to doing just that!

    Just to clarify, Carbine, just like Arenanet, is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft. I assume they have a similar level of creative control, but NCSoft makes the business decisions, even if done so with input from the studio.

    I stand by my post and reasoning. Also, any variation on the GW2 business model may provide some insight into how NCSoft views the results of that model.

    My take is that the GW2 business model will be one of the most prominent business models for future MMOs, with straight F2P being the the other most prevalent. There seems to be some room for an optional monthly subscription with value added benefits in the mix, but it has to be truly optional. The once dominant P2P  model is making it's exit and once a few more major AAA titles opt out, that business model will likely die a rapid death.

     

    Lets hope the hell not, because GW2 isn't a real MMO. In large part due to the business model they chose. There is absolutely no evidence that P2P is a dying model! Stop stating your opinions as facts! GW2 wasn't subscription based, because it was never designed to be from the start! That means no end game, no intention of updating end game. Over half of the WS staff is only working on end game! That is nearly HALF of their current development cost going to something GW2 barely spent any time on.

    I really have no idea what your trying to say here. What does P2P have to do with having end game content? 

    Guild wars makes PLENTY of money from their cash shop - and it's not pay to win either.... their lack of end game was a horrible mis-management of their development resources, but that isn't because they don't have a subscription. They have tons of money to implement more end game content they just choose to go with the living story route, which I could give two shits about personally even though I quite like GW2.

    Oh and lastly, how is it not an real MMO? I love how you say "GW2 isn't a real MMO" then blast the person for stating his opinions as fact LOL. Hypocrite much?

     

     

    It seemed pretty simple. You are stating bad opinions and claiming they are facts. They are not. The p2p model is still solid, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

     

     

    GW2 was a cheap game to make, and to continue to develop content for. That is why it is profitable! Their lack of end game was not a horrible mismanagement. It was intentional. That is the type of game they tried to make. That is what you can always expect when an MMO is B2P.

     

    Yet, you claim you want more of this? Are you delusional? B2P is a MMO formula that will always result in a lackluster game, like GW2.

     

    Also note, that just because the servers are still up doesn't mean the game is making money. Lots of games maintain servers at a loss for years without any subsequent revenue other than a few additional box sales. You can't say they are making tons of money from their cash shop, unless you have actual evidence to support that.

     

    Its not a real MMO, because it has no end game content. It has no endurance! It doesn't meet the standards of massive. It is merely a single player game with some multiplayer.

    Am I delusional? Only took you one post to get insulting eh? Boy you sure have a lot of assumptions about me when you don't really know what the fuck you're talking about.... I guess I should know better about posting on these forums. Full of people who know pretty much everything about online gaming but yet have never coded a day in their life. B2P is indeed very profitable, if it wasn't you wouldn't have CEO's and executives considering those payment methods as well. Ohhh right... you know more than those people too I'm sure. With your vast business knowledge and fully operational MMO that you've been working on in your studio. 

    And for the record, I'm not saying P2P is dead, far from it... in fact, you can charge people $20 dollar subs with an $80 dollar game if the game is actually a GOOD game to play and it wouldn't be an issue at all. It's all about the quality. But the fact that there's only about 15 games left on the market with this type of payment model SHOULD tell you something (I'm sure it doesn't, but it should). I also know GW2 is making money because their quarterly report indicates they are making money. You know, those funny stat things that they have to give investors during their conference calls?

    Yeahhh I know exactly where this thread is going. Rawr P2P is the ONLY model worth talking about and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong!!! Keep at it though, don't lose the good fight.... I'm done wasting my time on this site. 

     

     

    Assumptions about you? I have made no such assumptions. Delusional is not an insult. It means your thoughts on the matter are unrealistic.

    You need to be a computer programmer to understand economics and business models? Odd.. I must of missed that day in both my IT courses, and economics courses. Damn!

    I never even hinted that B2P wasn't profitable. You incorrectly assumed I was attacking you, and now you have allowed your emotions to sway your comments. This comment is nothing more than mere straw grasping to attack me. The vast majority of the gaming industry is B2P, so obviously it is profitable!

    You didn't? I guess I imagined it when you wrote,

    "The once dominant P2P model is making it's exit and once a few more major AAA titles opt out, that business model will likely die a rapid death."

    Yah, it tells me they aren't quality games. It is simple supply and demand. The demand is there, the supply of quality games worth a sub is low. People are willing to pay more for quality. WS is aiming to make a quality product, and will almost certainly have a sub option.

    The quarterly report that shows revenues way down? That quarterly report?

    You know? Damn, do you have a magic 8 ball?


  • KratierKratier Riverton, NJPosts: 71Member

    this is hilarious, this game obviously did not cost 100 million to make

    its a budget f2p game with a massive pr spin to it

    no it did not take 8 years to develop thats hilarious

     

    this whole thing reeks of failure, they are going to try to do what every mmo in the past 6 years has been trying, make as much money as they can off of hype, then cash out

     

    theyve clearly said they have no plans post-launch, expect failure

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,341Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

    Remember WAR?

    Remember SWToR , how the devs and members of this community preached the same thing, im sure you remember.. :)

  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member

    From what I've seen of this game so far, I wouldn't call it AAA. Maybe AA.

    Premium Freemium, maybe?

    Meh... Who knows...

  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAPosts: 522Member Uncommon
    I'd pay a box price for this, but not a sub. It's not worth it.
  • FrostveinFrostvein Monogahilla, NJPosts: 157Member
    Originally posted by Hanthos

    I have no problem with paying for a box or a sub, but I'm completely done with the discriminatory cash shops requiring me to pay more for anything. Subs work just fine, they create balance for all players, do not disrupt the in game economy or crafters and encourage invested players.

     

    Cash Shop = Next game please...

    This is how I feel as well.

    Cash shops become pervasive and tend to have all of the best items, and I really dislike having to spend more money on top of my subscription to gain access to everything in the store.

    Unless an MMO with a cash shop prices their in store items in such a way that subscribers have access to everything in there, for free, or there are massive discounts that allow afford everything in there with the stipend of coins then It really turns me off to a game.

     

    Box plus Sub only = I might try the game, and I might end up quitting if I don't like it but you got some money from me.

    Cash shop anything = I probably won't try the game.

     

    Developers can take their pick.

     

     

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