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When did atlas shrug?

2

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  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,227Member Uncommon

    It's cyclical, and many people in this thread are correct, it really was a variety of factors.

    Primarily I'd say that familiarity breeds contempt. And that the poorly executed themepark clones are what brought about this contempt.

    Let's say WoW is the Lamborghini of themeparks. Well a bunch of people bought Kia's put Lamborghini badges on them, painted them bright red and put a coffee can exhaust on and tried to tell us that they were the real thing. People went through stages of annoyance, disappointment, until they arrived at anger, hatred and contempt.

    As games got more casual oriented the core MMO players began to wonder if the industry had strayed from a better formula. That's the thing about innovation and evolution, it doesn't always turn out how you want it to. Different is not always better, it's just different - it's the next step of it's predecessor.

    I know there's all sorts of revisionist history about what really went on, but when WoW came out, I distinctly remember people hating on Everquest and the camping and the grind and the death penalty and the lack of quests. People actually wanted to level by questing, they felt it was more fun than just killing stuff.

    Blizzard didn't pull design decision out of their asses, they looked at what players were saying and said, well let's make that. So they did and players flocked to it. Most of the EQ playerbase ended up in WoW, but Blizzard's problem was one of listening too much. Players are always looking for the path of least resistance, and blizz saw that and simply kept removing the resistance until it became detrimental.

    Even to this day, any new game will be full of players looking for the fastest way to level, the fastest way to get rich, the fastest way to get geared. It's fine that the players seek it, but developers should not accommodate it.

    Once the sandbox becomes the norm, you can pretty much bet on the market being flooded with copies. That's just how business works. Someone makes a product, it makes lots of money, investors believe that there's money to be made by making a similar product so they all jump in. And 5-10 years after sandboxes become the normal thing, we'll be having this same conversation about why we can't have more themeparks. Eventually, people get tired of something and want a change.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    It's pretty obvious now. The times they are a changing. It seems like every other day we hear about a new MMO from a small company that plans to get back to the old school, the way they used to be, to have consequence and meaning again. Its a beautiful thing but I wonder, when did this happen?

    Available data suggests that a marketer reads the 'better back when' grumbling, and starts writing down a set of bullet points that will (most likely) sell some games.

    The first generation of mmorpgs did have some Veteran players, but they were veterans of SP games, or shooters, or strat games or consoles. But now all of those original MMO players are 15 years older...and so (rather naturally) the talk turns gradually to the "good old days". Because now the whole market is veteran MMO players. Old guys. Who talk the way old guys do. Who reminisce and talk about the past much more often than the future.

    Imagine maintaining a set of buyers for you new car from RocketX motors. And then marketing to them, 15 model years later. What's your approach? "Remember the Feel of your first Rocket 2000? Introducing: The Rocket 2015, the perfect retro recreation of that amazing experience!"

    Mustangs (just one example) went through several "retro recreation" periods. Mustang II's. Oh Mustang IIs were just feaking awful. Back to the Original Mustang (only better!)

    Sound familiar, EQ1 fans?

    The marketing response is an obvious one, a forgone conclusion.

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    I see a lot of talk about the next big push will be sandbox MMOs. I hate to burst your wet dream but the games in development that are talking about old school concepts and mechanics will not be sandbox games. This includes EQN and AA. These games will be hybrids of both sandbox and themepark elements. I've been saying for a while now that sooner or later the "Sandpark" model would become the new king and it looks like that time has arrived. People still want the structure that the Themepark games give them but they also want the freedom that a sandbox allows. I think you will find that the new trend will most likely be games that have a themepark structure built within a sandbox framework. This will give players the best qualities of both types of games.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 243Member

    Luckily the tools required to make an online game has improved dramatically, allowing for smaller companies to produce online games.

    Pros: More variety of MMO

    Cons: Decision paralysis

    Standing out with unique features is paramount.

    -WL

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Brenelael
    I see a lot of talk about the next big push will be sandbox MMOs. I hate to burst your wet dream but the games in development that are talking about old school concepts and mechanics will not be sandbox games. This includes EQN and AA. These games will be hybrids of both sandbox and themepark elements. I've been saying for a while now that sooner or later the "Sandpark" model would become the new king and it looks like that time has arrived. People still want the structure that the Themepark games give them but they also want the freedom that a sandbox allows. I think you will find that the new trend will most likely be games that have a themepark structure built within a sandbox framework. This will give players the best qualities of both types of games. Bren

    I'm fine with that, honestly I think the best MMO would be a sandbox world with lots of PVE and PVP lakes on borders.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,918Member Uncommon
    MMO's going back old school is like Metallica trying to get back to their roots. It just isn't going to happen and every new album (game) released sucks more and more each time.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    MMO's going back old school is like Metallica trying to get back to their roots. It just isn't going to happen and every new album (game) released sucks more and more each time.

    There are always some small indie effort of almost anything. Look at point-n-click adventures. They pretty much died and now making a come back but almost all the effort is indie and small.

     

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I didn't list FTP as having a major impact other than it saving the lives of several poor excuses for MMOs. All it really did was let companies know they can run MMOs just like Casinos and make a profit.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    I didn't list FTP as having a major impact other than it saving the lives of several poor excuses for MMOs. All it really did was let companies know they can run MMOs just like Casinos and make a profit.

    LOL f2p has no major impact? It is making MORe money than P2P-only games, and more and more MMOs are F2P. In fact, it is harder to find P2P -only games.

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,898Member Uncommon

    It's inevitable. There were a few unique designs in this genre before the coming of WOW. We know the story that came next.

    Now we've come full circle.. Devs will begin to exploit those other designs for the next decade.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    "atlas shrugging" in the sense of mmo's would be something like all the major developers packing up shop and saying "go ahead little developers, make your games without us"

     

    which would be, essentially, my personal gaming nirvana.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Distopia

    It's inevitable. There were a few unique designs in this genre before the coming of WOW. We know the story that came next.

    Now we've come full circle.. Devs will begin to exploit those other designs for the next decade.

    Or they can make MOBA, online ARPGs, MMOFPS ......

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,898Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Distopia

    It's inevitable. There were a few unique designs in this genre before the coming of WOW. We know the story that came next.

    Now we've come full circle.. Devs will begin to exploit those other designs for the next decade.

    Or they can make MOBA, online ARPGs, MMOFPS ......

    Sure, never said they couldn't. There are a lot of development studios out there. Hell ex blizz SOE and relic devs just formed one (under the premise of doing what the old guys did). New studios for MMO's pop up quite frequently.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Tierless I didn't list FTP as having a major impact other than it saving the lives of several poor excuses for MMOs. All it really did was let companies know they can run MMOs just like Casinos and make a profit.
    LOL f2p has no major impact? It is making MORe money than P2P-only games, and more and more MMOs are F2P. In fact, it is harder to find P2P -only games.

     


    I agree with that, but I don't think it had or has anything to do with the shift in the genre to more sandboxy like games.

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Lancaster, UKPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Who is John Galt?

     

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    I keep seeing posts like the OP's. People are over reacting to news and hype. The MMO landscape is full of broken promises. Developers are saying things, but that's all they are doing. I wouldn't assume MMO's are headed in any direction for 100%, but it is nice to hear some conversation and interest in making them into something you can really sink your teeth into again.
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itchmon

    "atlas shrugging" in the sense of mmo's would be something like all the major developers packing up shop and saying "go ahead little developers, make your games without us"

     

    which would be, essentially, my personal gaming nirvana.

    Can you imagine Brad McQuaid saying, "I will stop the motor of the world".

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • jesadjesad Arnold, MDPosts: 751Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by itchmon

    "atlas shrugging" in the sense of mmo's would be something like all the major developers packing up shop and saying "go ahead little developers, make your games without us"

     

    which would be, essentially, my personal gaming nirvana.

    Can you imagine Brad McQuaid saying, "I will stop the motor of the world".

    Don't have to imagine it.  I was there when Garriot went to outer space LOL.  That was the closest thing I've ever seen to Atlas Shrugging.  Proof being that even after that there are STILL people willing to throw money at him to make them the next great toaster.

    image
  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by itchmon

    "atlas shrugging" in the sense of mmo's would be something like all the major developers packing up shop and saying "go ahead little developers, make your games without us"

     

    which would be, essentially, my personal gaming nirvana.

    Can you imagine Brad McQuaid saying, "I will stop the motor of the world".

    and then the world would rejoice i would imagine.

    i think folks are getting so fed up with the purported atlases that we're ready for them to go ahead and move.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    much like players, companies tried to slay the wow dragon...and failed.

     

    wowkiller after wowkiller ended up in the graveyard.

     

    then they stoppd trying.

     

    and here we are.

     Pretty much this.

     

    Although I will add plenty of Triple-A studios are still trying to chase that WoW model, namely with games like TESO and Wildstar.  However by and large indie developers have always strayed from the WoW model, its a shame too because given enough capital and investment they could probably churn out a good game here and there but for the most part Indie's suck because they have no polish and zero production quality.

     

    Let's just hope future Triple-A studios try and innovate and make great games with longevity right now all my hopes are pinned on EQN, other then that there's nothing in the immediate future that I am really interested in.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • jesadjesad Arnold, MDPosts: 751Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    much like players, companies tried to slay the wow dragon...and failed.

     

    wowkiller after wowkiller ended up in the graveyard.

     

    then they stoppd trying.

     

    and here we are.

     Pretty much this.

     

    Although I will add plenty of Triple-A studios are still trying to chase that WoW model, namely with games like TESO and Wildstar.  However by and large indie developers have always strayed from the WoW model, its a shame too because given enough capital and investment they could probably churn out a good game here and there but for the most part Indie's suck because they have no polish and zero production quality.

     

    Let's just hope future Triple-A studios try and innovate and make great games with longevity right now all my hopes are pinned on EQN, other then that there's nothing in the immediate future that I am really interested in.

    It's funny.  I watched a thing on Good Morning America (or whatever that one morning show with Charley Rose on it is) this morning where they were talking about how movie ticket sales were down this year and how the blockbuster movies had not done their job in boosting them as they did in past years.

    So Charley Rose asks the guy - Do you think that now that the studios see that people aren't going to spend their money on these big blockbuster movies as much anymore that they will now start making "better" movies instead?

    The guy says - No, my concern is that since Iron Man is the only thing that did well, they might say well we need to make more superhero movies.

    That's the way these dumbf*&#s think.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50151614n

    image
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aspekx
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by itchmon

    "atlas shrugging" in the sense of mmo's would be something like all the major developers packing up shop and saying "go ahead little developers, make your games without us"

     

    which would be, essentially, my personal gaming nirvana.

    Can you imagine Brad McQuaid saying, "I will stop the motor of the world".

    and then the world would rejoice i would imagine.

    i think folks are getting so fed up with the purported atlases that we're ready for them to go ahead and move.

    That's probably true.  There's a great quote ( I don't know who said it though) ... The graveyards are full of indispensable men.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jesad
    Originally posted by azzamasin Originally posted by Robokapp much like players, companies tried to slay the wow dragon...and failed.   wowkiller after wowkiller ended up in the graveyard.   then they stoppd trying.   and here we are.
     Pretty much this.   Although I will add plenty of Triple-A studios are still trying to chase that WoW model, namely with games like TESO and Wildstar.  However by and large indie developers have always strayed from the WoW model, its a shame too because given enough capital and investment they could probably churn out a good game here and there but for the most part Indie's suck because they have no polish and zero production quality.   Let's just hope future Triple-A studios try and innovate and make great games with longevity right now all my hopes are pinned on EQN, other then that there's nothing in the immediate future that I am really interested in.
    It's funny.  I watched a thing on Good Morning America (or whatever that one morning show with Charley Rose on it is) this morning where they were talking about how movie ticket sales were down this year and how the blockbuster movies had not done their job in boosting them as they did in past years.

    So Charley Rose asks the guy - Do you think that now that the studios see that people aren't going to spend their money on these big blockbuster movies as much anymore that they will now start making "better" movies instead?

    The guy says - No, my concern is that since Iron Man is the only thing that did well, they might say well we need to make more superhero movies.

    That's the way these dumbf*&#s think.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50151614n


    Sad but true, look at how many movies have some sort of Transformers/Iron man robo suit stuff happening. THey even made the freakin Silver Samurai into a robo suit WTF!

  • ariasaitchoariasaitcho Rapid City, SDPosts: 112Member

    Oh look it's another sandbox vs. themepark thread. I'm reminded of two things:

    1) wabbit season! duck season! wabbit season! duck season!

     

    2) aaahhh, the good olde days, when the level topped out at (insert level here) and only very few truly dedicated (or using the more modern term: no life) players reached! Or put another way: I remember loving a game where the grind made a Korean grinder look like child's play; yet today the thing I despise most is (you guessed it) GRINDING!

     

     

    image
  • VigilianceVigiliance Sacramento, CAPosts: 213Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    It's pretty obvious now. The times they are a changing. It seems like every other day we hear about a new MMO from a small company that plans to get back to the old school, the way they used to be, to have consequence and meaning again. Its a beautiful thing but I wonder, when did this happen? Was it one event or several that led us to this place? I have my thoughts, but I'm curious what everyone else is thinking before I sway anyone with my view.

    So, when did the genre take a turn and head back into the virtual world (for both PVP and PVE MMOs) and away from the WOW model?

    *edit I had no idea this was a Novel Title by Ayn Rand I thought it was an expression about a sudden change of the world.

    I don't know when because I haven't honestly being paying strict attention to the MMO market for the last year or two but I can tell you why..

     

    Every developer tried mass market appeal, they wanted the largest audience they could get to support their game... Sounds great in theory, but that is incredibly hard to do out of the box..

     

    WoW didn't just start off as this huge success that it is today, it pandered to its player base, people who enjoyed MMO's (a much smaller audience back then) and people who loved the WarCraft lore and universe. Over time they slowly adapted to expand to a wider range of gamer... and became the MMO Behemoth they are today.

     

    Now all these companies try to do the same thing as WoW right out of the box release.. problem is they have no base following, they are relying completely on marketing and they raerly offer anything new or innovative...  Most people just shrug and go.. why don't I just stick with what I know? Why change games when I have invested X hours in WoW?

     

    Then new developers tried the same thing, and with each new game, and each new marketing campaign and hype build up, the MMO genre's player base as a whole more and more very cynical..

    Oh haven't seen this before... and the term "WoW clone" was created.

     

    Finally developers are starting to understand your not going to tear up the rug from underneath WoW right now. It's going to end on its own time line so the best thing for you to do now, is to market to the people who... aren't interested in WoW and that is an expanding market..

     

    Each new expansion, patch, etc is changing the game, and change isn't universally good. Granted, blizzard does a good job of understanding what people want for the most part.. but that doesn't mean there aren't people who have been and are being turned off from WoW and the direction it is going and will continue to go.

     

    Some are just tired of it, some feel the game is too inclusive, some want a stronger smaller community, etc etc. Its finding those successful elements that WoW has abandoned with the times and creating a game that focuses on those while making it fun and enjoyable.

     

     

    What those elements are... is up to debate.

     

     

     

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