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Too much realism is not good for games

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  • berenimberenim KasselPosts: 134Member Uncommon

     Anyone who played Nethack nows how far realism can get. Like choking on your food (eating much to prevent starving which happened most times before), food rotting in your backpack (if you don't have a cooling box), being petrified by eating a cockatrice egg, falling down stairs and being hit by your own inventory (sometimes causing petrification, too) because you are overburdened, being attacked by a partly eaten troll (which you tried to eat to prevent it from ressurecting), or being killed by your own pet which fell through a trapdoor and you meet again a few levels down, but it turned ferral and killed oyu before you could retame it...

     Nethack is called sadistic for a reason, same would happen to a too realistic MMO. Realism in games has borders which turn it form fun to tedious as enervating as someone already said.

    image

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Luckilly this is no problem at all for current day mmos, most developers make their games with cartoony graphics and replced their epic content with childrens bedtime stories..

    "Epic" content isn't any more realistic than bedtime stories.

    Maybe not.. but it's still better. I think that was the point.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,553Member Uncommon

    A friend of mine played an Ogre shaman in EQ - after about 2 years he started to look like an Ogre himself.

    Nothing more realistic than when a game starts to transform your friends in RL!

     

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    At the end of the day i play games to have fun...

    I really enjoy ultra simulation games just as much as some high fantasy games.. it all depends on what mood im in..

     

    Graphics wise tho I really like it to look as good as realistic as possible... hate al lthe cartoon styled games and so on.. but we all like different things.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,023Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by berenim

     Anyone who played Nethack nows how far realism can get. Like choking on your food (eating much to prevent starving which happened most times before), food rotting in your backpack (if you don't have a cooling box), being petrified by eating a cockatrice egg, falling down stairs and being hit by your own inventory (sometimes causing petrification, too) because you are overburdened, being attacked by a partly eaten troll (which you tried to eat to prevent it from ressurecting), or being killed by your own pet which fell through a trapdoor and you meet again a few levels down, but it turned ferral and killed oyu before you could retame it...

     Nethack is called sadistic for a reason, same would happen to a too realistic MMO. Realism in games has borders which turn it form fun to tedious as enervating as someone already said.

    Did you just say that becoming petrified is realistic? ;)

    Frankly does most of that really sound rather unrealistic to me. Few people actually eat until they choke. Partly eaten things rarely attacks. Pets don't become ferral in hours...

    Food do spoil and carrying loads of heavy crap is bad though. But why would you carry food that spoils in your backpack anyways when stuff like jerky is good for a long time?

    I actually like that falling damage is relative to how much crap you carry though, that is actually a pretty smart mechanic. :)

    I think for example that a historical musketeer game with a rather realistic combat system could be really fun. But there are good realistic things and bad realistic things as well, you don't really want to let your character take a bio every few hours because it really doesn't add anything to the game, not to any game.

    And adding realism to a game where wizards can call down meteor showers from the sky seems rather pointless to me.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind CrawleyPosts: 359Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by rojo6934

     

    It is more important to have realistic mechanics than realistic graphics.

    It is more important to have FUN mechanics than realistic mechanics. That is the message of the article.

    If crafting is realistic, you need to spend hours to make a sword. Does any sane players really want that?

     

    Well, if spending hours crafting is going to be the difference between EVERYONE being a master craftsman and only those dedicated enough to master a craft then I say realism is a must.

    As for fun, some people enjoy lots of things in a game I do not. Doesn't mean then things I do not have fun doing are not fun for someone else.

  • berenimberenim KasselPosts: 134Member Uncommon

    Usually if peopl taslk about "realisitc" in fantasy context they talk about realisitc physics, although they do not want to let the mechanic of bunny hpping while swinging a sword go (Then it is called too realistic), or circling a char swinging a sword. Whoever held a sword and did show fights knows it's not that easy.

    Nethack is a nice game for those seeking a real challenge (You load up on food because you starve if you don't and can even eat the corpses of killed mobs sometimes) and can stand playing with ascii chars.

     

    A Nethack nightmare:

    T @ DD&

    (let's see who gets it)

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    "nudges people to perform odd gameplay that is frequently repetitive as well as not particularly fun."

    I learned some years ago that anything that can be tackled with a "grind" approach, will be. 1 in 10000 drop chance? No solution except to start the months of grinding required until you get it (whatever it is).

    Gamers invariably blame the devs for their own poor decision-making skills.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    "nudges people to perform odd gameplay that is frequently repetitive as well as not particularly fun."

    I learned some years ago that anything that can be tackled with a "grind" approach, will be. 1 in 10000 drop chance? No solution except to start the months of grinding required until you get it (whatever it is).

    Gamers invariably blame the devs for their own poor decision-making skills.

    gamers blame devs because grinding is the easiest and shallowest way to prolong content. Are you plowing through a zone? OK, the only way you can advance is by getting a key that has a 1 in 1,000 drop rate. see you in a month. Grinding is ok in extremely limited doses when its warranted, but 9/10 times it really is there just to make weak and short content seem longer than it actually is, because at that point you are at the mercy of RNG and not your own skill

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by KBishop
    gamers blame devs because grinding is the easiest and shallowest way to prolong content. Are you plowing through a zone? OK, the only way you can advance is by getting a key that has a 1 in 1,000 drop rate. see you in a month. Grinding is ok in extremely limited doses when its warranted, but 9/10 times it really is there just to make weak and short content seem longer than it actually is, because at that point you are at the mercy of RNG and not your own skill

    Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

    That means, not everyone has one.

    Gamers also hate "no" for an answer. Maybe you'll have to live without the latest rare pet? No wai! I'd much rather devote several months to grinding it out.

    Blizzard sees it a lot with holiday events. Here's *prize* with a binomially ridiculous combination rarity, you'd have to be really lucky to get one! Ten Million gamers respond "I must have it!" and begin to grind it out, "I must open 11 million candy wrappers before Tuesday!"

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by KBishop
    gamers blame devs because grinding is the easiest and shallowest way to prolong content. Are you plowing through a zone? OK, the only way you can advance is by getting a key that has a 1 in 1,000 drop rate. see you in a month. Grinding is ok in extremely limited doses when its warranted, but 9/10 times it really is there just to make weak and short content seem longer than it actually is, because at that point you are at the mercy of RNG and not your own skill

    Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

    That means, not everyone has one.

    Gamers also hate "no" for an answer. Maybe you'll have to live without the latest rare pet? No wai! I'd much rather devote several months to grinding it out.

    Blizzard sees it a lot with holiday events. Here's *prize* with a binomially ridiculous combination rarity, you'd have to be really lucky to get one! Ten Million gamers respond "I must have it!" and begin to grind it out, "I must open 11 million candy wrappers before Tuesday!"

    giving 1 item an absurd drop rate for the bases of being rare is lazy design through and through. You can achieve the same thing by making  the item actually require you to fight difficult encounters, but thats harder to design and keep things up consistently.

    Thats human nature dude (chick, i cant tell). You give people something that is only available for a limited time and people flock too it (see the mcrib) You also give something a certain rarety and people want it for the prestige. This isn't something only common amongst gamers, this is how psychology works.

     

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by DMKano

    A friend of mine played an Ogre shaman in EQ - after about 2 years he started to look like an Ogre himself.

    Nothing more realistic than when a game starts to transform your friends in RL!

     

    This made me laugh.  Remember kids, don't replace your good diet and exercise with gaming!  Well, if you practiced them in the first place that is.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

    That means, not everyone has one.

    Bad idea to make stuff actually rare. What is the point to make an item if only 0.0000001% of your audience will ever see one.

    The trick is to make it feel rare .. an illusion. Just like achievements in games (except may be e-sports). They make you feel good, but it is no substitute of actually doing something worthwhile in the real world.

     

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

    That means, not everyone has one.

    Bad idea to make stuff actually rare. What is the point to make an item if only 0.0000001% of your audience will ever see one.

    The trick is to make it feel rare .. an illusion. Just like achievements in games (except may be e-sports). They make you feel good, but it is no substitute of actually doing something worthwhile in the real world.

     

    I disagree. Some things need to be truly and genuinely rare. The trick is to make it so that said items aren't actually necessary or so massively beneficial that everyone is going to feel compelled to get it for a miniscule boost to their skill. In most of the games Ive played, rarity actually isnt a problem because game design doesn't emphasize always needing the biggest and best. In EVE, you don't actually need the biggest or most rare stuff, and in fact, flaunting such things can get you in more trouble than using more mundane ships and gear. Games where everyone walks around bragging how they earned this "rare" armor that everyone else is walking around in tend to be games I drop fast; if rarity means nothing, chances are the rest of the game is stuck in even easier mode and dull as heck because of it.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Loke666
    ... why would you carry food that spoils in your backpack anyways when stuff like jerky is good for a long time?


    Can't fault a guy for wanting a PB & J in his backpack once in a while.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    That was a good article. I thought the bits about realistic mechanics pushing players to do repetitive and unrealistic things was interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. I also liked the bit about how there are unrealistic things that players rarely notice, because being realistic actually makes things more difficult. Like really high ceilings in all the buildings you enter so the camera has room to move around. Then there's the more realistic tiny rooms that you have a hard time moving around in because the camera has to zoom in really close.

    Something else that had never occurred to me was crafting. It takes like two weeks to make a sword, if you know what you're doing. It's got to take longer to make those fancy swords we have in games, but there we are, banging them out, once every five or ten seconds. It doesn't matter what you do with crafting, it's not going to be realistic or add realism because nothing you make is made in any way like actually making the item. Then again, a crafting system in place can lead to very realistic activity, like an in game economy.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    That was a good article. I thought the bits about realistic mechanics pushing players to do repetitive and unrealistic things was interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. I also liked the bit about how there are unrealistic things that players rarely notice, because being realistic actually makes things more difficult. Like really high ceilings in all the buildings you enter so the camera has room to move around. Then there's the more realistic tiny rooms that you have a hard time moving around in because the camera has to zoom in really close.

    Something else that had never occurred to me was crafting. It takes like two weeks to make a sword, if you know what you're doing. It's got to take longer to make those fancy swords we have in games, but there we are, banging them out, once every five or ten seconds. It doesn't matter what you do with crafting, it's not going to be realistic or add realism because nothing you make is made in any way like actually making the item. Then again, a crafting system in place can lead to very realistic activity, like an in game economy.

    I think you hit on a few key points. Realism must occasionally give way, but it cannot feel like you're breaking reality entirely. Things like larger rooms are a fact of life in pretty much any computer game that most people simply accept, largely because it's consistent across the entire game. Likewise, crafting systems have to bend reality in many ways, but the successful one at least capture the feeling of being realistic in both approach and end result. I think in the end, being realistic for the sake of being realistic is a no go, but so is breaking reality for the sake of breaking reality, and crafting is a prime example of this. Shortening the times of the individual steps is a necessary nod to these being games, but that doesn't mean that one should at the same time simply ignore real world processes and related tools when designing ingame processes and tools.

  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Omaha, NEPosts: 354Member
    The Everquest example is actually one I find interesting, as it highlights one big difference that will always exist between games and the real world, and that is time. I know tons of people in real life who would engage in that kind of behavior if the time factor was more forgiving for them to do so. As it is, very few people have the time to spam an activity like that in real life that isn't their job or primary focus, so you don't really see it much outside those who are wealthy enough that they don't have to worry overly much about day to day needs and tasks.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

    That means, not everyone has one.

    Bad idea to make stuff actually rare. What is the point to make an item if only 0.0000001% of your audience will ever see one.

    I wouldn't know, the company I worked for made Uniques (as in, one of a kind, ever). :shrug:

    No one told them "that doesn't work!", I guess. Sold a lot of tickets to customers who seemed to enjoy getting them, too.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    That was a good article. I thought the bits about realistic mechanics pushing players to do repetitive and unrealistic things was interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. I also liked the bit about how there are unrealistic things that players rarely notice, because being realistic actually makes things more difficult. Like really high ceilings in all the buildings you enter so the camera has room to move around. Then there's the more realistic tiny rooms that you have a hard time moving around in because the camera has to zoom in really close.

    Something else that had never occurred to me was crafting. It takes like two weeks to make a sword, if you know what you're doing. It's got to take longer to make those fancy swords we have in games, but there we are, banging them out, once every five or ten seconds. It doesn't matter what you do with crafting, it's not going to be realistic or add realism because nothing you make is made in any way like actually making the item. Then again, a crafting system in place can lead to very realistic activity, like an in game economy.

    I'll bet you never tried to make a +9700 quality spade in "A Tale in the Desert" ? image

     

    You started with a big block of metal and selection of hammers. You could vary how hard you wanted to hit the metal block, and where to hit it, and each hammer had a different point shape and size. Each strike deformed the metal block, causing appropriately-shaped dents and bulges (different hammer points) of varying size and depth (force of the blow).

    You could only hit the metal block a set number of times. If you didn't make something useful, the metal block was scrapped.

    If you had a lot of patience and determination, coupled with a certain spatial talent, you could fairly consistently make top quality tools. The vast majority of players could only manage medium quality... image

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon

    Too much can be bad, but realism as a whole is a good thing. No one wants to craft a sword for hours on end, but people who enjoy crafting don't want to just walk up and hit a button that instantly makes it either. It's about balance. And obviously as mentioned earlier going to the bathroom is stupid. 

     

    Some people want less realism, some want more. But I think very few want the kind of realism that the majority considers overboard. Thing is, no one is wrong. If there is a market for it, people will be there.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

    That means, not everyone has one.

    Bad idea to make stuff actually rare. What is the point to make an item if only 0.0000001% of your audience will ever see one.

    I wouldn't know, the company I worked for made Uniques (as in, one of a kind, ever). :shrug:

    No one told them "that doesn't work!", I guess. Sold a lot of tickets to customers who seemed to enjoy getting them, too.

    I am talking about virtual stuff where the cost of duplication is zero.

     

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    The harder the game (in most cases that means more realistic), the longer the playability.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by madazz

    Too much can be bad, but realism as a whole is a good thing. No one wants to craft a sword for hours on end, but people who enjoy crafting don't want to just walk up and hit a button that instantly makes it either. It's about balance. And obviously as mentioned earlier going to the bathroom is stupid. 

     

    Some people want less realism, some want more. But I think very few want the kind of realism that the majority considers overboard. Thing is, no one is wrong. If there is a market for it, people will be there.

    That is the point. Let the market decide. From what i have observe in the market place:

    1) slow travel is too much. LFD/LFR, fast travel is the norm. Even Skyrim has fast travel.

    2) Crafting .... counter to what you said, it seems that large masses of players don't mind hitting-one-button to craft mechanics. No one stops playing WOW because of that. OTOH, games with complex crafting like SWG was doing poorly. So either people don't want complex crafting, or they don't care about crafting enough for it to matter.

    3) Instances are not "realistic" but the market seems to decide that it should be a standard feature.

    Sure there are different preferences and niche games but these seems to be the major trends in the market.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    The harder the game (in most cases that means more realistic), the longer the playability.

    No. Harder has nothing to do with being realistic. MP10 is hard in D3. It is as realistic as MP0.

    Sunwell raid in WOW is 100x harder than open world quests. It is in an instance and less 'realistic' than open world stuff.

     

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