I don't care about P2W. I care about real money to game money conversion. In short. Gold selling. In a game with any emphasis on player economy or heavy crafting systems. This is a deathblow.
I think it all depends on how it works in the game and the community. EVE has RMT to game cash conversion and by the player accounts here it has a great economy.
Neverwinter, GW2, and Rift all have RMT to game cash conversions and those games are doing fine despite the exploit in Neverwinter. They may not have the sort of economy wheelers and dealers like to play in, but for the larger player populace within those games it seems to be working fine. I buy and sell stuff with AD in Neverwinter. I sell my stuff on the AH in Rift.
If you're thinking of players becoming an economic powerhouse and influencing other players and controlling things, then yeah the cash conversion could hurt that. There is an argument to be made that taking the wind out of that is a good thing for the rest of the playerbase and the health of the game in general.
EVE's economy is fine because it was established before RMT and the amount of currency you can realistically acquire from real money is pretty small. It's not enough to offset your overall status in the game. This won't be the case when a brand new game launches with RMT.
Also, EVE being set as the example of success is pretty empty to be honest. EVE may be a successful game, but I doubt it will ever be duplicated. CCP's biggest claim to success with EVE is their ability to re-monetize it's mediocre playerbase to support the whole dam game. If they weren't able to create this, given the current sentiment about subscriptions within the entire genre, I seriously doubt all those people having their subs paid for by other players would just start plunking down the plastic for all those accounts. How many accounts do the top players have each? 3? 4? more? If they had to pay for their own, how many would that drop to? How many subs would be lost overall? Eve is a success but it's because of PLEX and multiple accounts. It's good for eve, But you cannot consider it a reproducable success. It's also an anomoly. The next game to come along cannot bank on more than one paid account per player. And if that were applied to EVE.....One account for each active player, I dare say it's Subscription would be in the 5 figures. Maybe 6 pushing it. That's not a success in today's market. It's not even big pre-WoW for that matter.
For the other examples, I disagree. I don't think they have good economies at all. But meh....opinions.
For the last point, what you are saying you don't want to happen still will, but it will be the players who buy gold in the 1st days of the game's release. The "wind in their sails" can be purchased.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
Then you should stop playing MMOs. Time to play often gives (not better players) an advantage. Cash shops help people who have less time play to get a level playing field. But then you get P2W that gets everyone upset. When it costs 20-50 bucks a month thats harsh but what if its F2P and costs 5 bucks a month to get all the boost? Is that unfair? In 14 years of MMOing I have never seen any game that had an equal or level playing field. Some MMOs it time that gives an advantage and other MMOs its money. As long as its a good game with a fair price does it really matter what one gives the advantage?
Well you're going to be exhausted because there are a lot of us. Just look at the thread you're posting in. There are enough anti-cash shop players to fill up a subscription only server.
Buying experience potions are strictly P2W in any scenario. If you feel that is an opinion, good for you. But quite honestly I'm not alone and eventually a game (or server) will come out that caters to our crowd.
Cash shops also break immersion. The cash shop makes no sense in the virtual world. The cash shop is a window on your screen that takes real world money and makes things happen in game. That is retarded. That isn't even a gaming experience. It makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.This is a strong opinion felt by many. Once a less greedy company comes up with a server or game that caters to immersion, you will see it become very popular amongst hardcore players. Maybe EQN will do it, maybe not. But the desire for it will still be there until a game offers it.
Someone else's level has nothing to do with you or your enjoyment. Unless your enjoyment is based solely on Powerleveling and getting a "server first" to cap, or being the first person to loot an item. If that is where you derive your happiness, then I would say the problem with MMORPGs are you. I surely hope you're not one of those.
Microtransactions aren't going anywhere. They're pretty much the future for the gaming industry in general. Especially for online games where putting a body in the world is extremely valuable, even if they don't pay.
If you can't feel "immersed" in a game because there's a UI button you can press to access a cash shop, then you got some serious problems to contend with on an individual level.
And no, the numbers don't lie. "P2P hardcores", like myself, and maybe you, are a drastic minority. Calling that playerbase niche is even stretch. It's a tiny fraction of the gaming community, sadly, but a reality non-the-less.
We are larger than you think.
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Every game that has gone F2P converted from P2P has seen massive increase in players and profits.
Clearly people aren't sick of them.
Clearly they don't ruin the games for more* people.
I never had a problem with P2P, I have to buy 2x-3x boxes and subscriptions for every P2P MMO RPG I have ever had and I still didn't mind, but I can at least accept reality and understand that what's good for the company, is good for me.
F2P creates more money, a larger, healthier community and brings more attention and support to the game. An optional cash shop button is a small price to pay.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
It is snobbish.
And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it. SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games. I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).
Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
Nothing is equal opportunity as we are not equal in any manner.
Whether you have more money to build a better system and therefore have a better experience since you can raid and I cannot.
OR
You have more disposable cash to put into buying exp potions.
Nothing is equal, never will be and any illusions that anything in life is equal are just that...illusions.
Seeing as EQN will not have PvP as a cornerstone of anything then it really shouldn't matter what they have in their cash shops as it won't give you an advantage over anyone but the NPC's. Since we've already established that it's not equal (for a multitude of reasons beyond those given) then you're already going to be on unequal terms if you try to compete, so don't....just enjoy the game and if you're not doing that then watch out for the slamming door.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
It is snobbish.
And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it. SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games. I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).
Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.
One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.
So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
It is snobbish.
And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it. SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games. I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).
Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.
One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.
So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.
You have never really looked at SoE cash shop have you?
I agree with you, this is why i would to play in subscription only server without a cash shop.
Howether i know that this kind of server will probably not implemented, so i hope that, at least, cash shop will sell only vanity items.
If EQN wil be a P2W game i will simply not play it.
No matter what someone will call it P2W because they cant afford the items offered in the store that they want.
I highly doubt most people dislike cash shops because "they can't afford it". It's more of a "If it isn't earned in game then it doesn't belong in game" mentality as to why people think cash shops are bad.
Seems like most cash shop models these days offer both options. Doesn't bother me either way. If it makes the gamer happy and it supports the game it's all good. p2w is such a buzz word these days game isn't even out yet.
You will play EQN and you will like it. Don't pretend like you won't.
Oh, wait. That only works in cartoons. All right-thinking EQ fans hate cartoons.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
Nothing is equal opportunity as we are not equal in any manner.
Whether you have more money to build a better system and therefore have a better experience since you can raid and I cannot.
OR
You have more disposable cash to put into buying exp potions.
Nothing is equal, never will be and any illusions that anything in life is equal are just that...illusions.
Seeing as EQN will not have PvP as a cornerstone of anything then it really shouldn't matter what they have in their cash shops as it won't give you an advantage over anyone but the NPC's. Since we've already established that it's not equal (for a multitude of reasons beyond those given) then you're already going to be on unequal terms if you try to compete, so don't....just enjoy the game and if you're not doing that then watch out for the slamming door.
You misunderstand me.
You and I don't ever have to be equal. But once we set foot in the game, we are on equal footing for that 1st moment. What you and I do in the game after that, will determine our path. We are obviously limited by our real lives and will never be equal, but we are differentiated ONLY by the choices we made in the game not outside of it.
And I think people who use the "I'm married with kids and don't have time so it is not fair" argument are just people with entitlement issues. They made choices to better their real life and are active in the real world. That's where their rewards will be, not in a game. Why shouldn't someone who is single with more dedication to their online hobby have more to show for it?
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
It is snobbish.
And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it. SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games. I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).
Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.
One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.
So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.
You have never really looked at SoE cash shop have?
I don't think he's ever installed and played an SOE game.
How would a subscription only no cash shop server even work? What would happen to all the cash shop items? Assuming there are different mounts and cosmetics would these just be unavailable? I suppose that's a fair trade off. Or would you expect them to create a whole new system to incorporate them into the game world?
Either way, I don't ever see it happening.
It would be like Denny's offering a Buffet option for the same price as one meal.
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
Then you should stop playing MMOs. Time to play often gives (not better players) an advantage. Cash shops help people who have less time play to get a level playing field. But then you get P2W that gets everyone upset. When it costs 20-50 bucks a month thats harsh but what if its F2P and costs 5 bucks a month to get all the boost? Is that unfair? In 14 years of MMOing I have never seen any game that had an equal or level playing field. Some MMOs it time that gives an advantage and other MMOs its money. As long as its a good game with a fair price does it really matter what one gives the advantage?
Chalk me up as another that can't stand anything in a cash shop that isn't vanity. Want to advance in a game? Play it. Whats wrong with it taking you longer, if you don't have as much time? Maybe instead of him stopping to play mmos, maybe you should if you don't have enough time to play one, or can't deal with being in a guild of people that maybe only have as much time as you do, and thus do content together on that time frame?
Everyone wanting money to equal out in a mmo is part of what is making current mmos crap imo. P2W is good? How about you have no levels, and once you pay over time and hit $1000, you get a screen that flashes *** YOU WIN!!! *** If you don't want to PLAY a mmo without boosts, it must not be that good of a mmo.
If EQN is some modern crappy mmo, that people get to max level, like it is nothing, then I guess who cares about xp boosts, because you about get to max level by logging in...If it is anywhere close to EQ style leveling, then yeah I have a big problem with xp potions...
I do not consider time as unfair either, work at your job more hours (if your hourly), you get more pay, work less, you get less....Want to advance in the game more? Play more... Should someone working at the same job for 10 hours get the same money as someone working 40 hours? The person working 10 hours flirts with the boss, so its ok, its fair now!
I don't have unlimited time, I have a job that I routinely have to work ot, a house, wife etc...So yeah people will have more time to play than me, doesn't bother me one bit, and I make good money, so yeah I could be the guy living on xp potions. If I disliked a game enough that I felt I needed to skip content with xp potions, I probably wouldn't want to play it anyway.
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
TOR was/is a shallow, over instanced, lobby mmo. The crafting/harvesting was bland/easy/worthless. The story was ok, but the diversity was nearly non-existant (I played dark, the wife played light and 95%+ was the same response/end result). The end game was daily quests and a broken end game world even over a month after release. I consider I got my money out of it, but after playing my free month, I actually posted here, that I was done, even if it was f2p, with no cash shop...So was it a decent game? Sure...."decent" mmorpg? Hell no...Everyone has different ideas of decent, but to be decent imo, you have to have some system that are worth doing, TOR didn't imo. I haven't played FF14, but I will probably check out its open beta...It looks pretty, but that doesn't do much for me, I prefer substance.
Not every p2p game has gone f2p, but it seems to be happening at an alarming rate with these new lobby based mmos.
This is the hottest topic on every game forum. How we pay to play the games we want to love. As gamers we get bent out of shape if the game we want to play does not have the payment model we want. If other gamers dont like the payment model we like then something is wrong with them as a gamer or a person.
F2P, B2P or P2P no matter what you will be paying something to play, so what really matters? A fair price. Thats all that should matter to a gamer. If you get 10-15 bucks a month on average from a player no matter what model you use and everyone get get the same advantages from the fee of 10-15 bucks a month, what do we care how the extract it?
This is what I dont get, if the price is fair and the game is good, why should we care past that? How is a game thats F2P with a cash shop thats fair, what is their to get upset about? That more honest then games that are double dipping with a monthly sub and a cash shop. SoE gives subbing players free SoE coin so they can use the cash shop and not spend a dime past their sub. Dont want to use the cash shop, you wont feel left behind if you dont and use your coin to buy expansions and other new games that SoE makes.
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
The difference will be clear later in the game. Those games shared one thing in common. Resources were invested early in teh game experience but fell off the map later on. I didn't play AOC, but read up where enough people said the game was great early, but fell apart after a certain zone. SWTOR is great game while leveling. But hitting cap in a week and very limited options to do after that are what killed the sub base. Had SWTOR had anything that even closely resebled an Endgame, it probably would still be Sub based. These games failed in their own rights, not because players don't want P2P games anymore. Will FF14 be different? I can't say just yet. I can only hope. But I'm willing enough to give it a shot.
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
The difference will be clear later in the game. Those games shared one thing in common. Resources were invested early in teh game experience but fell off the map later on. I didn't play AOC, but read up where enough people said the game was great early, but fell apart after a certain zone. SWTOR is great game while leveling. But hitting cap in a week and very limited options to do after that are what killed the sub base. Had SWTOR had anything that even closely resebled an Endgame, it probably would still be Sub based. These games failed in their own rights, not because players don't want P2P games anymore. Will FF14 be different? I can't say just yet. I can only hope. But I'm willing enough to give it a shot.
And in 3 months when end game is not living up to what you or others want, is it worth 15 bucks a month then? Or like most P2P games, once they have failed you its rare you ever go back? I have been burned by X game because it fell short, so am I willing to drop 15 bucks to see if its changed? Thats one area P2P loses. I got really mad at GW2 but because its F2P I have gone back to check it out on and off and I am a little shocked for a game that made me so mad I am playing it again. If it had a sub I would not have. I have dropped money on the game as well =-)
How many people who play FF14 will love it from launch? You know there is a % of the gamers that will drop it. How many could they win back if they had F2P with a sub option to join end game? How many people that pass on buying the game would buy it and sub if they got to try it risk free to end game? This is another area pure P2P games fail at.
Well you're going to be exhausted because there are a lot of us. Just look at the thread you're posting in. There are enough anti-cash shop players to fill up a subscription only server.
Buying experience potions are strictly P2W in any scenario. If you feel that is an opinion, good for you. But quite honestly I'm not alone and eventually a game (or server) will come out that caters to our crowd.
Cash shops also break immersion. The cash shop makes no sense in the virtual world. The cash shop is a window on your screen that takes real world money and makes things happen in game. That is retarded. That isn't even a gaming experience. It makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.This is a strong opinion felt by many. Once a less greedy company comes up with a server or game that caters to immersion, you will see it become very popular amongst hardcore players. Maybe EQN will do it, maybe not. But the desire for it will still be there until a game offers it.
Someone else's level has nothing to do with you or your enjoyment. Unless your enjoyment is based solely on Powerleveling and getting a "server first" to cap, or being the first person to loot an item. If that is where you derive your happiness, then I would say the problem with MMORPGs are you. I surely hope you're not one of those.
Microtransactions aren't going anywhere. They're pretty much the future for the gaming industry in general. Especially for online games where putting a body in the world is extremely valuable, even if they don't pay.
If you can't feel "immersed" in a game because there's a UI button you can press to access a cash shop, then you got some serious problems to contend with on an individual level.
And no, the numbers don't lie. "P2P hardcores", like myself, and maybe you, are a drastic minority. Calling that playerbase niche is even stretch. It's a tiny fraction of the gaming community, sadly, but a reality non-the-less.
This statement is absolutely ridiculous. The reason people play MMO's and spend time working toward their goals is so they can show off their accomplishments to everyone. Whether you believe it or not, people like to brag what they've worked hard for. In-game levels are no exception to this.
When you introduce content that is purchasable with real currency, all of the equivalent in-game assets will instantly have less worth. If I spent 100 hours farming and grinding for a certain item or level, and then player B just comes out and is able to get the same accomplishment just buy purchasing it with real money - that content I worked so hard for won't be nearly as satisfying nor accomplishing.
And arguing that players don't or shouldn't care about what other people attain in-game is absurd because this is literally why we play multi-player games. We enjoy sharing our experiences and accomplishments with other people.
Comments
EVE's economy is fine because it was established before RMT and the amount of currency you can realistically acquire from real money is pretty small. It's not enough to offset your overall status in the game. This won't be the case when a brand new game launches with RMT.
Also, EVE being set as the example of success is pretty empty to be honest. EVE may be a successful game, but I doubt it will ever be duplicated. CCP's biggest claim to success with EVE is their ability to re-monetize it's mediocre playerbase to support the whole dam game. If they weren't able to create this, given the current sentiment about subscriptions within the entire genre, I seriously doubt all those people having their subs paid for by other players would just start plunking down the plastic for all those accounts. How many accounts do the top players have each? 3? 4? more? If they had to pay for their own, how many would that drop to? How many subs would be lost overall? Eve is a success but it's because of PLEX and multiple accounts. It's good for eve, But you cannot consider it a reproducable success. It's also an anomoly. The next game to come along cannot bank on more than one paid account per player. And if that were applied to EVE.....One account for each active player, I dare say it's Subscription would be in the 5 figures. Maybe 6 pushing it. That's not a success in today's market. It's not even big pre-WoW for that matter.
For the other examples, I disagree. I don't think they have good economies at all. But meh....opinions.
For the last point, what you are saying you don't want to happen still will, but it will be the players who buy gold in the 1st days of the game's release. The "wind in their sails" can be purchased.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
Then you should stop playing MMOs. Time to play often gives (not better players) an advantage. Cash shops help people who have less time play to get a level playing field. But then you get P2W that gets everyone upset. When it costs 20-50 bucks a month thats harsh but what if its F2P and costs 5 bucks a month to get all the boost? Is that unfair? In 14 years of MMOing I have never seen any game that had an equal or level playing field. Some MMOs it time that gives an advantage and other MMOs its money. As long as its a good game with a fair price does it really matter what one gives the advantage?
Every game that has gone F2P converted from P2P has seen massive increase in players and profits.
Clearly people aren't sick of them.
Clearly they don't ruin the games for more* people.
I never had a problem with P2P, I have to buy 2x-3x boxes and subscriptions for every P2P MMO RPG I have ever had and I still didn't mind, but I can at least accept reality and understand that what's good for the company, is good for me.
F2P creates more money, a larger, healthier community and brings more attention and support to the game. An optional cash shop button is a small price to pay.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
It is snobbish.
And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it. SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games. I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).
Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Nothing is equal opportunity as we are not equal in any manner.
Whether you have more money to build a better system and therefore have a better experience since you can raid and I cannot.
OR
You have more disposable cash to put into buying exp potions.
Nothing is equal, never will be and any illusions that anything in life is equal are just that...illusions.
Seeing as EQN will not have PvP as a cornerstone of anything then it really shouldn't matter what they have in their cash shops as it won't give you an advantage over anyone but the NPC's. Since we've already established that it's not equal (for a multitude of reasons beyond those given) then you're already going to be on unequal terms if you try to compete, so don't....just enjoy the game and if you're not doing that then watch out for the slamming door.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.
So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.
You have never really looked at SoE cash shop have you?
Seems like most cash shop models these days offer both options. Doesn't bother me either way. If it makes the gamer happy and it supports the game it's all good. p2w is such a buzz word these days game isn't even out yet.
Oh, wait. That only works in cartoons. All right-thinking EQ fans hate cartoons.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You misunderstand me.
You and I don't ever have to be equal. But once we set foot in the game, we are on equal footing for that 1st moment. What you and I do in the game after that, will determine our path. We are obviously limited by our real lives and will never be equal, but we are differentiated ONLY by the choices we made in the game not outside of it.
And I think people who use the "I'm married with kids and don't have time so it is not fair" argument are just people with entitlement issues. They made choices to better their real life and are active in the real world. That's where their rewards will be, not in a game. Why shouldn't someone who is single with more dedication to their online hobby have more to show for it?
I don't think he's ever installed and played an SOE game.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
How would a subscription only no cash shop server even work? What would happen to all the cash shop items? Assuming there are different mounts and cosmetics would these just be unavailable? I suppose that's a fair trade off. Or would you expect them to create a whole new system to incorporate them into the game world?
Either way, I don't ever see it happening.
It would be like Denny's offering a Buffet option for the same price as one meal.
LOL, They are selling gold in a sandbox. Argue away.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Chalk me up as another that can't stand anything in a cash shop that isn't vanity. Want to advance in a game? Play it. Whats wrong with it taking you longer, if you don't have as much time? Maybe instead of him stopping to play mmos, maybe you should if you don't have enough time to play one, or can't deal with being in a guild of people that maybe only have as much time as you do, and thus do content together on that time frame?
Everyone wanting money to equal out in a mmo is part of what is making current mmos crap imo. P2W is good? How about you have no levels, and once you pay over time and hit $1000, you get a screen that flashes *** YOU WIN!!! *** If you don't want to PLAY a mmo without boosts, it must not be that good of a mmo.
If EQN is some modern crappy mmo, that people get to max level, like it is nothing, then I guess who cares about xp boosts, because you about get to max level by logging in...If it is anywhere close to EQ style leveling, then yeah I have a big problem with xp potions...
I do not consider time as unfair either, work at your job more hours (if your hourly), you get more pay, work less, you get less....Want to advance in the game more? Play more... Should someone working at the same job for 10 hours get the same money as someone working 40 hours? The person working 10 hours flirts with the boss, so its ok, its fair now!
I don't have unlimited time, I have a job that I routinely have to work ot, a house, wife etc...So yeah people will have more time to play than me, doesn't bother me one bit, and I make good money, so yeah I could be the guy living on xp potions. If I disliked a game enough that I felt I needed to skip content with xp potions, I probably wouldn't want to play it anyway.
Wonder how many know what the reference is without looking it up.
TOR was/is a shallow, over instanced, lobby mmo. The crafting/harvesting was bland/easy/worthless. The story was ok, but the diversity was nearly non-existant (I played dark, the wife played light and 95%+ was the same response/end result). The end game was daily quests and a broken end game world even over a month after release. I consider I got my money out of it, but after playing my free month, I actually posted here, that I was done, even if it was f2p, with no cash shop...So was it a decent game? Sure...."decent" mmorpg? Hell no...Everyone has different ideas of decent, but to be decent imo, you have to have some system that are worth doing, TOR didn't imo. I haven't played FF14, but I will probably check out its open beta...It looks pretty, but that doesn't do much for me, I prefer substance.
Not every p2p game has gone f2p, but it seems to be happening at an alarming rate with these new lobby based mmos.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
This is the hottest topic on every game forum. How we pay to play the games we want to love. As gamers we get bent out of shape if the game we want to play does not have the payment model we want. If other gamers dont like the payment model we like then something is wrong with them as a gamer or a person.
F2P, B2P or P2P no matter what you will be paying something to play, so what really matters? A fair price. Thats all that should matter to a gamer. If you get 10-15 bucks a month on average from a player no matter what model you use and everyone get get the same advantages from the fee of 10-15 bucks a month, what do we care how the extract it?
This is what I dont get, if the price is fair and the game is good, why should we care past that? How is a game thats F2P with a cash shop thats fair, what is their to get upset about? That more honest then games that are double dipping with a monthly sub and a cash shop. SoE gives subbing players free SoE coin so they can use the cash shop and not spend a dime past their sub. Dont want to use the cash shop, you wont feel left behind if you dont and use your coin to buy expansions and other new games that SoE makes.
The difference will be clear later in the game. Those games shared one thing in common. Resources were invested early in teh game experience but fell off the map later on. I didn't play AOC, but read up where enough people said the game was great early, but fell apart after a certain zone. SWTOR is great game while leveling. But hitting cap in a week and very limited options to do after that are what killed the sub base. Had SWTOR had anything that even closely resebled an Endgame, it probably would still be Sub based. These games failed in their own rights, not because players don't want P2P games anymore. Will FF14 be different? I can't say just yet. I can only hope. But I'm willing enough to give it a shot.
And in 3 months when end game is not living up to what you or others want, is it worth 15 bucks a month then? Or like most P2P games, once they have failed you its rare you ever go back? I have been burned by X game because it fell short, so am I willing to drop 15 bucks to see if its changed? Thats one area P2P loses. I got really mad at GW2 but because its F2P I have gone back to check it out on and off and I am a little shocked for a game that made me so mad I am playing it again. If it had a sub I would not have. I have dropped money on the game as well =-)
How many people who play FF14 will love it from launch? You know there is a % of the gamers that will drop it. How many could they win back if they had F2P with a sub option to join end game? How many people that pass on buying the game would buy it and sub if they got to try it risk free to end game? This is another area pure P2P games fail at.
This statement is absolutely ridiculous. The reason people play MMO's and spend time working toward their goals is so they can show off their accomplishments to everyone. Whether you believe it or not, people like to brag what they've worked hard for. In-game levels are no exception to this.
When you introduce content that is purchasable with real currency, all of the equivalent in-game assets will instantly have less worth. If I spent 100 hours farming and grinding for a certain item or level, and then player B just comes out and is able to get the same accomplishment just buy purchasing it with real money - that content I worked so hard for won't be nearly as satisfying nor accomplishing.
And arguing that players don't or shouldn't care about what other people attain in-game is absurd because this is literally why we play multi-player games. We enjoy sharing our experiences and accomplishments with other people.