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EQN cash shop - If things other than vanity items offered, I'll play, but not seriously.

24

Comments

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Canan

    Title says it all. I can never seriously be immersed in a game that offers resources, items or experience rewards to someone who pays more than I. What happened to games like Ultima Online? If you saw a player owned castle in UO it was understood that player worked his tail off to get it and there was a certain feeling of admiration and jealousy. Pay to win makes a game feel soulless and easily attainable. It belittles and disintegrates player competition and pride. 

    So, yes, I will stay play but only until a game that requires true effort and player cooperation comes along. AND I will not make a single purchase to the cash shop unless only vanity items are offered.

    What about you? Does a cash shop that offers game changing items diminish your fun factor? 

     

     Seriously Op This was worth writing a thread? You'll play but not seriously play it? Gosh that'll sure teach them.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by udon

    The only SOE game who's cash shop I have a problem with is Dragon Prophet and that's not really a SOE game more like a partner publisher.  I know some people might disagree but SOE's other games like EQ2 and PS2 just don't bother me at all because once you sub you can 100% ignore the cash shop to no personal determent at all.

    Yea I know EQ2 pretty much cuts the game off at higher levels to free players due to spell and gear restrictions and you really either have to spend money in the cash shop or sub to do anything after a certain point but is that really a bad system?  It's certainly not P2W in my book.  More like a extended free trial of the lower level parts of the game.

    Everyone has to spend some money at higher levels it's just that SOE gives you the option of either spending that money piece meal as you go or once a month in blocks.  I have seen much worse in games of late than what SOE has done with EQ2 or PS2.

    I don't expect SoE to offer subs in their new games, but we'll see what they do with EQN.

    I don't have a problem with unlocking better gear in EQ2.  I have a problem with the fact I paid $35 - $50 for that expansion and then they want me to pay again to unlock gear I get from it.  If you buy the xpac then you should get to use all the stuff from that particular xpac.  If you don't buy the xpac then it makes sense you should have to pay more piecemeal for ala carte offerings.

    The only other thing I don't really like is the gold membership pop-up.  It tends to show up at the most inconvenient times like right when a pack of linked mobs are aggroing on you, not to mention it just feels tacky.

  • teddy_bareteddy_bare Washington, NJPosts: 398Member Uncommon

    XP pots, Fast Mounts, larger bags, and the like are definitely NOT P2W, and I don't understand the thought process that says it is. Those items are of little consequence, yeah, they may make a levels XP requirement 10% less, or the run to the next city 10% quicker, but that is not P2W.

    P2W seems pretty clear to me. P2W, to me, means that you can buy, end-game or equivalent gear, or even worse, gear better than what can be aquired in the game through actually playing it. Or, if they sell in-game currency in the store, that too is P2W. I might even go so far as to say that being able to purchase slots for bags, or unlocking an extra ability slot or some such, even those can be P2W imo.

    Cosmetic items, mounts of any speed, XP pots, larger bags, appearance armor, unique skins for characters (faces, body types, etc.), even the gear-gating they use in EQ2....none of that is P2W, that's all cosmetic crap. I mean, I suppose it can be argued that an XP pot is P2W b/c it enables someone to level up faster, true, it does do that, but it does NOT give that person any real advantage over you as a direct result of that potion. They were going to level anyway, how does it affect you that they leveled up faster? And don't say the stat bump they get from the level gives them an advantage, b/c it's so fleeting and the chance that you are standing there while they happen to gain a level, turn around and kill you w/ said stat boost, b/c that's silly ;). The closest to P2W is the gear-gating, and even that I don't feel is P2W. Is it lame? Yes. But you can't pay for the gear itself, basically you're paying for access to the end-game, which I don't find unreasonable at all. You can have a grand ole time in the game, but if you want to get serious, you gotta pay to experience that content.

    To me, P2W means you can obtain items through a storefront that you would otherwise have to grind or raid for, and said items are of such high-quality that they give a definite advantage over someone not geared as well.

    Of course, this is all symantics we're arguing here. Pay 2 Win has no accepted-by-the-public definition as of yet, so we can argue like this til we're blue in the face and no one is going to get anywhere. But, going from what I have personally experienced, especially in the EQ games, and Planetside 2, SoE actually goes out of there way to avoid selling anything that can be construed as P2W. Smed may be MANY things, but he is a shrewd business man first, and he knows EQNext is a game targeted at a "Western" audience that has not, and doesn't seem willing to ever, accept a P2W game. SoE knows their audience, and wouldn't go as far to P2W, and if they did, it would be on non-transfer enabled segregated servers where it has no impact on the rest of the community.

    image
  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by grimfall
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by Nadia

    I expect experience potions to be offered

    - whether thats a deal breaker is up to you

    This pretty much depends on the game design, for me.

    If it is a game which is based on design where you quickly level to max level, get capped and then char progression stops, it is not a big deal. Not that I would be interested in such game anyway.

    However, in a game which is based on design with longterm vertical character progression, it may represent a serious problem.

     

    Based on SOE's history - they've added experience potions, fast mounts, larger bags, and tried to add power-ups to PS2, you can bet there is going to be some P2W stuff in the item shop, and the item shop is going to be shoved in your face every time you log in.

    They can't help themselves.  They've shown no history of being able to control themselves, so there's basically no evidence that supports they will be able to control themselves now, just because they have a new game.

    All I am hoping is that the imbalance issues are not too glaring, and that the OOH BUY ME NOW, pop-ups aren't too prevalent.

     

    I trust them to make a good game, and I'm excited about it, but based on history and applying  a little logic, you can see that the bean counters are making these decisions, not the game makers.

    None of the things you listed are P2W in the slightest.

    The fact that there's a UI button to buy cash shop items is hardly "in your face".

     

    In particular game designs, experience boosts can be considered so called P2W which means they may give player significant longterm competitive advantage over other players who do not use the cash shop.

    Imagine for instance Lineage II in early chronicles. A guild of players who do not use experience boosts would never manage to take castle from players using experience boosts. 

    I admit we all have different perception of what "P2W" means, but saying that experience boosts are not P2W in the slightest is still quite a bold statement, in my eyes.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by arieste
    Originally posted by ClassicEQ

    Cash shops also break immersion. The cash shop makes no sense in the virtual world. The cash shop is a window on your screen that takes real world money and makes things happen in game. That is retarded.  That isn't even a gaming experience. It makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.This is a strong opinion felt by many. Once a less greedy company comes up with a server or game that caters to immersion, you will see it become very popular amongst hardcore players. Maybe EQN will do it, maybe not. But the desire for it will still be there until a game offers it.

    Having to put in your credit card number to continue playing for another month also makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.  You just have to accept that paying for the game and playing the game are separate activities. 

     

    I would much rather had an old-school sub model myself, but in terms of roleplay, there is very little difference in going to a RL store and paying $50 for the next expansion which your character is "is magically blocked from accessing otherwise" versus clicking on an in-game button to pay $50 for the same magic barrier to drop.  The latter is just easier. 

     

    So long as I am paying for content and "access to play" and not for "gameplay achievements",  I've resigned myself to live with the cash shop model.  Is it my ideal model? No.  But it's where the industry is at and if it's the only way to get new and better MMORPG's to be made, I'll have to suck it up.

    I actually agree that cash shops are highly immersion breaking. Well, at least much more than subs based games and expansions sales.

    You mention monthly inserting credit card number. I have to say that when I was subbed in WoW, for instance, I just input credit card details once and then played for years without a single interference of the RL currency transactions with my gameplay. It was so subtle, I did not even know I was paying for the game which is why I often forgot to actually cancel my subs and kept paying for months while not playing the game anymore :).

    Cash shops on the other hand seem to be omnipresent in an MMO. Furthermore, they usually require you to visit them quite often which depends on the game of course.

    When I think of  Dungeons and Dragons for instance, I feel like puking all over my screen. You had to buy entrances to dungeons and stuff like that. I was not sure whether I am playing a PC game or slot machines. The game itself was actually quite nice :o/

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    This topic again?

    Well, same topic gets the same answer.

    I don't care about P2W. I care about real money to game money conversion. In short. Gold selling. In a game with any emphasis on player economy or heavy crafting systems. This is a deathblow.

    I think it all depends on how it works in the game and the community.  EVE has RMT to game cash conversion and by the player accounts here it has a great economy.

    Neverwinter, GW2, and Rift all have RMT to game cash conversions and those games are doing fine despite the exploit in Neverwinter.  They may not have the sort of economy wheelers and dealers like to play in, but for the larger player populace within those games it seems to be working fine.  I buy and sell stuff with AD in Neverwinter.  I sell my stuff on the AH in Rift.

    If you're thinking of players becoming an economic powerhouse and influencing other players and controlling things, then yeah the cash conversion could hurt that.  There is an argument to be made that taking the wind out of that is a good thing for the rest of the playerbase and the health of the game in general.

    EVE's economy is fine because it was established before RMT and the amount of currency you can realistically acquire from real money is pretty small. It's not enough to offset your overall status in the game. This won't be the case when a brand new game launches with RMT.

    Also, EVE being set as the example of success is pretty empty to be honest. EVE may be a successful game, but I doubt it will ever be duplicated. CCP's biggest claim to success with EVE is their ability to re-monetize it's mediocre playerbase to support the whole dam game. If they weren't able to create this, given the current sentiment about subscriptions within the entire genre, I seriously doubt all those people having their subs paid for by other players would just start plunking down the plastic for all those accounts. How many accounts do the top players have each? 3? 4? more? If they had to pay for their own, how many would that drop to? How many subs would be lost overall? Eve is a success but it's because of PLEX and multiple accounts. It's good for eve, But you cannot consider it a reproducable success. It's also an anomoly. The next game to come along cannot bank on more than one paid account per player. And if that were applied to EVE.....One account for each active player, I dare say it's Subscription would be in the 5 figures. Maybe 6 pushing it. That's not a success in today's market. It's not even big pre-WoW for that matter.

    For the other examples, I disagree. I don't think they have good economies at all. But meh....opinions.

    For the last point, what you are saying you don't want to happen still will, but it will be the players who buy gold in the 1st days of the game's release. The "wind in their sails" can be purchased.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    Then you should stop playing MMOs. Time to play often gives (not better players) an advantage. Cash shops help people who have less time play to get a level playing field. But then you get P2W that gets everyone upset. When it costs 20-50 bucks a month thats harsh but what if its F2P and costs 5 bucks a month to get all the boost? Is that unfair? In 14 years of MMOing I have never seen any game that had an equal or level playing field. Some MMOs it time that gives an advantage and other MMOs its money. As long as its a good game with a fair price does it really matter what one gives the advantage? 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by ClassicEQ.

    Well you're going to be exhausted because there are a lot of us. Just look at the thread you're posting in. There are enough anti-cash shop players to fill up a subscription only server.

    Buying experience potions are strictly P2W in any scenario. If you feel that is an opinion, good for you. But quite honestly I'm not alone and eventually a game (or server) will come out that caters to our crowd.

    Cash shops also break immersion. The cash shop makes no sense in the virtual world. The cash shop is a window on your screen that takes real world money and makes things happen in game. That is retarded.  That isn't even a gaming experience. It makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.This is a strong opinion felt by many. Once a less greedy company comes up with a server or game that caters to immersion, you will see it become very popular amongst hardcore players. Maybe EQN will do it, maybe not. But the desire for it will still be there until a game offers it.

    Someone else's level has nothing to do with you or your enjoyment.  Unless your enjoyment is based solely on Powerleveling and getting a "server first" to cap, or being the first person to loot an item.  If that is where you derive your happiness, then I would say the problem with MMORPGs are you.  I surely hope you're not one of those.

    Microtransactions aren't going anywhere.  They're pretty much the future for the gaming industry in general.  Especially for online games where putting a body in the world is extremely valuable, even if they don't pay.

    If you can't feel "immersed" in a game because there's a UI button you can press to access a cash shop, then you got some serious problems to contend with on an individual level.

    And no, the numbers don't lie.  "P2P hardcores", like myself, and maybe you, are a drastic minority.  Calling that playerbase niche is even stretch.  It's a tiny fraction of the gaming community, sadly, but a reality non-the-less.

    We are larger than you think.

    Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P.  More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.

    Every game that has gone F2P converted from P2P has seen massive increase in players and profits.

    Clearly people aren't sick of them.

    Clearly they don't ruin the games for more* people.

    I never had a problem with P2P,  I have to buy 2x-3x boxes and subscriptions for every P2P MMO RPG I have ever had and I still didn't mind, but I can at least accept reality and understand that what's good for the company, is good for me.

    F2P creates more money, a larger, healthier community and brings more attention and support to the game.  An optional cash shop button is a small price to pay.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    It is snobbish.

    And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it.  SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games.  I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).

    Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    Nothing is equal opportunity as we are not equal in any manner.

     

    Whether you have more money to build a better system and therefore have a better experience since you can raid and I cannot.

    OR

    You have more disposable cash to put into buying exp potions.

     

    Nothing is equal, never will be and any illusions that anything in life is equal are just that...illusions.

     

    Seeing as EQN will not have PvP as a cornerstone of anything then it really shouldn't matter what they have in their cash shops as it won't give you an advantage over anyone but the NPC's.  Since we've already established that it's not equal (for a multitude of reasons beyond those given) then you're already going to be on unequal terms if you try to compete, so don't....just enjoy the game and if you're not doing that then watch out for the slamming door.

     

     

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    It is snobbish.

    And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it.  SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games.  I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).

    Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.

    One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.

    So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    It is snobbish.

    And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it.  SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games.  I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).

    Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.

    One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.

    So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.

    You have never really looked at SoE cash shop have you?


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • mikunimanmikuniman Keene, NYPosts: 312Member
    Originally posted by Shadowguy64
    Originally posted by St_konker
    Originally posted by Gholos

    I agree with you, this is why i would to play in subscription only server without a cash shop.

    Howether i know that this kind of server will probably not implemented, so i hope that, at least, cash shop will sell only vanity items.

    If EQN wil be a P2W game i will simply not play it.

    No matter what someone will call it P2W because they cant afford the items offered in the store that they want.

     

    I highly doubt most people dislike cash shops because "they can't afford it". It's more of a "If it isn't earned in game then it doesn't belong in game" mentality as to why people think cash shops are bad.

    Seems like most cash shop models these days offer both options. Doesn't bother me either way. If it makes the gamer happy and it supports the game it's all good. p2w is such a buzz word these days game isn't even out yet.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    You will play EQN and you will like it.  Don't pretend like you won't.

    Oh, wait. That only works in cartoons. All right-thinking EQ fans hate cartoons.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    Nothing is equal opportunity as we are not equal in any manner.

     

    Whether you have more money to build a better system and therefore have a better experience since you can raid and I cannot.

    OR

    You have more disposable cash to put into buying exp potions.

     

    Nothing is equal, never will be and any illusions that anything in life is equal are just that...illusions.

     

    Seeing as EQN will not have PvP as a cornerstone of anything then it really shouldn't matter what they have in their cash shops as it won't give you an advantage over anyone but the NPC's.  Since we've already established that it's not equal (for a multitude of reasons beyond those given) then you're already going to be on unequal terms if you try to compete, so don't....just enjoy the game and if you're not doing that then watch out for the slamming door.

     

     

    You misunderstand me.

    You and I don't ever have to be equal. But once we set foot in the game, we are on equal footing for that 1st moment. What you and I do in the game after that, will determine our path. We are obviously limited by our real lives and will never be equal, but we are differentiated ONLY by the choices we made in the game not outside of it.

    And I think people who use the "I'm married with kids and don't have time so it is not fair" argument are just people with entitlement issues. They made choices to better their real life and are active in the real world. That's where their rewards will be, not in a game. Why shouldn't someone who is single with more dedication to their online hobby have more to show for it?

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    It is snobbish.

    And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it.  SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games.  I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).

    Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.

    One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.

    So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.

    You have never really looked at SoE cash shop have?

    I don't think he's ever installed and played an SOE game.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    You will play EQN and you will like it.  Don't pretend like you won't.

    Oh, wait. That only works in cartoons. All right-thinking EQ fans hate cartoons.

    Whom are you kidding.

    Dont you know that "everybody loves hypnotoad"

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon

    How would a subscription only no cash shop server even work? What would happen to all the cash shop items? Assuming there are different mounts and cosmetics would these just be unavailable? I suppose that's a fair trade off. Or would you expect them to create a whole new system to incorporate them into the game world?

    Either way, I don't ever see it happening.

    It would be like Denny's offering a Buffet option for the same price as one meal.

    image
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

     

    You have never really looked at SoE cash shop have?

    I don't think he's ever installed and played an SOE game.

    LOL, They are selling gold in a sandbox. Argue away.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,901Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    We are larger than you think.

    Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P.  More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.

    Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.

    You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.

    What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?

    I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....

    I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish. 

    It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.

    Then you should stop playing MMOs. Time to play often gives (not better players) an advantage. Cash shops help people who have less time play to get a level playing field. But then you get P2W that gets everyone upset. When it costs 20-50 bucks a month thats harsh but what if its F2P and costs 5 bucks a month to get all the boost? Is that unfair? In 14 years of MMOing I have never seen any game that had an equal or level playing field. Some MMOs it time that gives an advantage and other MMOs its money. As long as its a good game with a fair price does it really matter what one gives the advantage? 

    Chalk me up as another that can't stand anything in a cash shop that isn't vanity.  Want to advance in a game?  Play it.  Whats wrong with it taking you longer, if you don't have as much time?  Maybe instead of him stopping to play mmos, maybe you should if you don't have enough time to play one, or can't deal with being in a guild of people that maybe only have as much time as you do, and thus do content together on that time frame?

     

    Everyone wanting money to equal out in a mmo is part of what is making current mmos crap imo.  P2W is good?  How about you have no levels, and once you pay over time and hit $1000, you get a screen that flashes *** YOU WIN!!!  ***  If you don't want to PLAY a mmo without boosts, it must not be that good of a mmo.

     

    If EQN is some modern crappy mmo, that people get to max level, like it is nothing, then I guess who cares about xp boosts, because you about get to max level by logging in...If it is anywhere close to EQ style leveling, then yeah I have a big problem with xp potions...

     

    I do not consider time as unfair either, work at your job more hours (if your hourly), you get more pay, work less, you get less....Want to advance in the game more?  Play more...  Should someone working at the same job for 10 hours get the same money as someone working 40 hours?  The person working 10 hours flirts with the boss, so its ok, its fair now!

     

    I don't have unlimited time, I have a job that I routinely have to work ot, a house, wife etc...So yeah people will have more time to play than me, doesn't bother me one bit, and I make good money, so yeah I could be the guy living on xp potions.  If I disliked a game enough that I felt I needed to skip content with xp potions, I probably wouldn't want to play it anyway.

     

  • jdnycjdnyc Long Island City, NYPosts: 1,696Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Gallus85

    You will play EQN and you will like it.  Don't pretend like you won't.

    Oh, wait. That only works in cartoons. All right-thinking EQ fans hate cartoons.

    Whom are you kidding.

    Dont you know that "everybody loves hypnotoad"

    Wonder how many know what the reference is without looking it up.

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    We are larger than you think.

    Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P.  More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.

    Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.

    You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.

    What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?

    I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.

    TOR was/is a shallow, over instanced, lobby mmo.   The crafting/harvesting was bland/easy/worthless.  The story was ok, but the diversity was nearly non-existant (I played dark, the wife played light and 95%+ was the same response/end result).  The end game was daily quests and a broken end game world even over a month after release.  I consider I got my money out of it, but after playing my free month, I actually posted here, that I was done, even if it was f2p, with no cash shop...So was it a decent game?  Sure...."decent" mmorpg?  Hell no...Everyone has different ideas of decent, but to be decent imo, you have to have some system that are worth doing, TOR didn't imo.    I haven't played FF14, but I will probably check out its open beta...It looks pretty, but that doesn't do much for me, I prefer substance.

     

    Not every p2p game has gone f2p, but it seems to be happening at an alarming rate with these new lobby based mmos.

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