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Skills, the gamebreaker for me..

Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

With about 15 years of MMO experience, i have come to a point about the things that i do like and the things that i dont like..

 

I dont care about this games cartoony style, because its not the graphics that make a game feel real, but the annimations and the NPC inteaction.  There are  certainly a lot of things to look forward with this game.

 

Sadly time has learned me that a combat system with only 7 active skills is a gamebreaker to me.

 

now let me explain why i think this is bad gamedesign.

 

there are 3 layers in a good combat system

-Strategical ( this is where you plan ahead, making your skillbuild and putting your stats in the right place, but also finding the right people and builds to group with)

-tactical (this is where you choose your skills wisely during combat, where you change roles depending on how the fight goes, and where you switch between defense and offense if necesary, this is where you decide which tools to use at what moment, ie different types of mobs require different actions, it would be to simple to repeat the same rotation against every mob you encounter)

-Execution ( this is the part where you react in real time to the challenges a game throws at you,  you move out of harms way, you target the right mobs, you take positioning, ie the action you perform)

 

 

Now wildstar is making exact the same mistake that Neverwinter and TSW did, both combat styles are pretty much alike, but having only 7 skills to choose from in real time redusces the tactical level to almost non excistant compared to other games that have many many more skills to choose from in real time. 

They give you a system that allows you to build your character around a single tactic  and rotation, with maybe one or 2 situational skills.  This build however is not a tactical thing, but belongs in the strategical sphere.

The big mistakes these developers make is replacing the old deep tactical gameplay with a more active execution phase. And that in my opinion is a big mistake, as the perfect combat system consists of all 3.  Which makes me sad that these developers dont see it that way. 

And with only about 20 skills available to each class, the strategical part, or the choosing of the 7 active skills is also almost neglectible.  Because in games like GW1 this part was incredible nifty with players having access to hundreds of skills, but only 20 skills adds much strategic options. In the end this means people will see the flaws in the simplicity of the design and the lack of depth and move on.

 

Either you agree with me or not, this is how i see it, and it makes me feel kind of sad that the current trent is replacing the old tactical layer with something more flashy instead of adding the flashy layer to the combat we knew.. Because all those telegraphs might actually work well, and so does a FPS targetting style combat, but not at the cost of things that have proven to be a valuable asset.

 

(Now dont tell me that EQ had only 8 skills, i know, but you get more then 10 new skills every few levels which changed the options your class had totally.. but at max level, i quickly found that only 8 skills was lacking for me)

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

     

    Sadly time has learned me that a combat system with only 7 active skills is a gamebreaker to me.

     

     

     

    there are 3 layers in a good combat system

    -Strategical ( this is where you plan ahead, making your skillbuild and putting your stats in the right place, but also finding the right people and builds to group with)

    -tactical (this is where you choose your skills wisely during combat, where you change roles depending on how the fight goes, and where you switch between defense and offense if necesary, this is where you decide which tools to use at what moment, ie different types of mobs require different actions, it would be to simple to repeat the same rotation against every mob you encounter)

    -Execution ( this is the part where you react in real time to the challenges a game throws at you,  you move out of harms way, you target the right mobs, you take positioning, ie the action you perform)

     

     

    I can't speak to the best in strategy or tactics in WildStar but the game of "Go" is one of the simplest games out there with incredibly deep tactics and strategy.

    I don't know what this needs to be repeated so often but "how many skills you have doesn't equal great tactics or strategy".

    If WildStar misses the boat it has nothing to do with how many skills you get to have and more to do with what you are able to do with those skills.

     

  • tyrlaantyrlaan Union, NJPosts: 17Member

    To the OP:

    Before this descends down the typical path, I want to applaud you for expressing your views clearly and as YOUR VIEWS. It's truly refreshing to see someone post something that's not rude, presumptuous, etc. 

    I don't think my preferences are in line with yours, but hey you even acknowledged people can do that too :)

  • acidbloodacidblood melbournePosts: 265Member Uncommon
    Won't say too much because of NDA, and while it's unlikely they will move away from the limited action (LAS) set in general, changes have already been made in beta, and more are coming... basically the devs really are listening, and responding.
  • JoekraJoekra BlieskastelPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by acidblood
    Won't say too much because of NDA, and while it's unlikely they will move away from the limited action (LAS) set in general, changes have already been made in beta, and more are coming... basically the devs really are listening, and responding.

    Well regardless the game wont be perfect for every single player. What one tester has to say another would despise.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member

    [mod edit]

     

    First off, the LAS is not a flawed design.  If we are honest, even in games like WoW you primarily only hit a few buttons most of the time.  Also, the number of buttons is absurd in WoW.  I have nearly 40 buttons on my characters in WoW, most of which I need binds for.  Whats more, they increases with every expac.  I am sure blizz developers don't particularly like this, but they have no choice at this point.

    What makes the LAS work so fluently in WS is that you have to aim your abilities.  That level of situational awareness will require a level of skill far greater than another 20 buttons you rarely press. 

    It also means you will have to pick 8 out of 35+ skills to use during combat for every single encounter.  You don't get everything all the time like in WoW.  That is yet another level of strategy required.

    Furthermore, this game is highly mobile.  So not only will you have to dodge, but you will have to land aimed shots while doing so.  This is on a completely different level of skill compared to wow where your target is locked.

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,048Member Uncommon

    I have to disagree.

    But only in case its similar to D3 skill system.

    In other words, having a large pool of skills, but having to choose 7 from them to encounter.

     

    1.You have a strategy of choosing the right setup for the encounter. 

    2.You have tactic of proper rotation.

    3.And you have action of pressing the right key in right time.

     

    In games where you have all skills bared.

    You are lacking the first step , since you don't have to choose nothing.

    And combat is lacking in third step, because having 20 skills is hard to have bind to keyboard.

    So you have to mouse them.

     

    Now, only question is - will they give you enough skills to have actual strategy, and will they let you modify the bar when ever you want.

     

    image

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Now, only question is - will they give you enough skills to have actual strategy, and will they let you modify the bar when ever you want.

     

    Devs said 30+ skills.

    You can modify them whenever you are out of combat.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,260Member Uncommon
    If what your saying is true Lord, we agree. First time maybe? image
  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

     

     

     

    OP. I agree.

     

    The trend now is to relieve players of the need to "think" during an encounter, by think I mean to know when to switch between defensive and offensive. The choice has been to replace this with a "dodge" mechanic. Yes, I understand this can be argued as a "defensive tactic". But, I for one, feel it is not. Why? Well, to avoid a long and complicated dissertation, I will leave it at this: In both TSW and GW2, games I have played, it goes the same way. Spam DPS, then dodge. Repeat until encounter is finished. Here we see the dodge mechanic has replaced all defensive tactics. No need for buffs, or well placed heals. Simply "dodge or die". Now that is a fine style of game play, we call it TWITCH. Personally I play multiple kinds of games. I like twitch games, and I like RPG games. (I also like driving games but that didn't seem to apply) For me I "get into my characters", I like having abilities and knowing when to activate them to achieve a goal, when I play a RPG. When I play a twitch game that is what I want. Just as I find character development in a setting such as Unreal, being foolish. I find twitch game play in a RPG to be out of place.

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,076Member Uncommon

    I have to disagree, I'm tired of all the action bars filling up my screen, preventing me from seeing more of the world.  I remember TOR, playing certain classes, you basically needed every skill available.  I remember going though my skills and trying to take some off, but I just couldnt find ones I never used.  It was just to cluttered.

     

    Also you really dont have to make much of a tactical choice if you always have every choice available to you.  A real choice would be sacrificing one good skill for another good skill for a given fight.  Then again I liked the TSW skill system. 

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    With about 15 years of MMO experience, i have come to a point about the things that i do like and the things that i dont like..

     

    I dont care about this games cartoony style, because its not the graphics that make a game feel real, but the annimations and the NPC inteaction.  There are  certainly a lot of things to look forward with this game.

     

    Sadly time has learned me that a combat system with only 7 active skills is a gamebreaker to me.

     

    now let me explain why i think this is bad gamedesign.

     

    there are 3 layers in a good combat system

    -Strategical ( this is where you plan ahead, making your skillbuild and putting your stats in the right place, but also finding the right people and builds to group with)

    -tactical (this is where you choose your skills wisely during combat, where you change roles depending on how the fight goes, and where you switch between defense and offense if necesary, this is where you decide which tools to use at what moment, ie different types of mobs require different actions, it would be to simple to repeat the same rotation against every mob you encounter)

    -Execution ( this is the part where you react in real time to the challenges a game throws at you,  you move out of harms way, you target the right mobs, you take positioning, ie the action you perform)

     

     

    Now wildstar is making exact the same mistake that Neverwinter and TSW did, both combat styles are pretty much alike, but having only 7 skills to choose from in real time redusces the tactical level to almost non excistant compared to other games that have many many more skills to choose from in real time. 

    They give you a system that allows you to build your character around a single tactic  and rotation, with maybe one or 2 situational skills.  This build however is not a tactical thing, but belongs in the strategical sphere.

    The big mistakes these developers make is replacing the old deep tactical gameplay with a more active execution phase. And that in my opinion is a big mistake, as the perfect combat system consists of all 3.  Which makes me sad that these developers dont see it that way. 

    And with only about 20 skills available to each class, the strategical part, or the choosing of the 7 active skills is also almost neglectible.  Because in games like GW1 this part was incredible nifty with players having access to hundreds of skills, but only 20 skills adds much strategic options. In the end this means people will see the flaws in the simplicity of the design and the lack of depth and move on.

     

    Either you agree with me or not, this is how i see it, and it makes me feel kind of sad that the current trent is replacing the old tactical layer with something more flashy instead of adding the flashy layer to the combat we knew.. Because all those telegraphs might actually work well, and so does a FPS targetting style combat, but not at the cost of things that have proven to be a valuable asset.

     

    (Now dont tell me that EQ had only 8 skills, i know, but you get more then 10 new skills every few levels which changed the options your class had totally.. but at max level, i quickly found that only 8 skills was lacking for me)

     

    At least you gave the game a fair shake.image

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Four0Six

     

     

     

    OP. I agree.

     

    The trend now is to relieve players of the need to "think" during an encounter, by think I mean to know when to switch between defensive and offensive. The choice has been to replace this with a "dodge" mechanic. Yes, I understand this can be argued as a "defensive tactic". But, I for one, feel it is not. Why? Well, to avoid a long and complicated dissertation, I will leave it at this: In both TSW and GW2, games I have played, it goes the same way. Spam DPS, then dodge. Repeat until encounter is finished. Here we see the dodge mechanic has replaced all defensive tactics. No need for buffs, or well placed heals. Simply "dodge or die". Now that is a fine style of game play, we call it TWITCH. Personally I play multiple kinds of games. I like twitch games, and I like RPG games. (I also like driving games but that didn't seem to apply) For me I "get into my characters", I like having abilities and knowing when to activate them to achieve a goal, when I play a RPG. When I play a twitch game that is what I want. Just as I find character development in a setting such as Unreal, being foolish. I find twitch game play in a RPG to be out of place.

    Completely false.

    There is more thinking involved before a fight, and during with this style of game play.

     

    Look at this video,

    http://youtu.be/ko4cX0majzg?t=18m10s

    That is but a mid level dungeon, and difficulty increases with level! 

    Needless to say raids will be far more intense.

  • gr0und3dgr0und3d Why, CAPosts: 113Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    there are 3 layers in a good combat system

    -Strategical ( this is where you plan ahead, making your skillbuild and putting your stats in the right place, but also finding the right people and builds to group with)

    -tactical (this is where you choose your skills wisely during combat, where you change roles depending on how the fight goes, and where you switch between defense and offense if necesary, this is where you decide which tools to use at what moment, ie different types of mobs require different actions, it would be to simple to repeat the same rotation against every mob you encounter)

    -Execution ( this is the part where you react in real time to the challenges a game throws at you,  you move out of harms way, you target the right mobs, you take positioning, ie the action you perform)

     

     

    Now wildstar is making exact the same mistake that Neverwinter and TSW did, both combat styles are pretty much alike, but having only 7 skills to choose from in real time redusces the tactical level to almost non excistant compared to other games that have many many more skills to choose from in real time. 

    They give you a system that allows you to build your character around a single tactic  and rotation, with maybe one or 2 situational skills.  This build however is not a tactical thing, but belongs in the strategical sphere.

    The big mistakes these developers make is replacing the old deep tactical gameplay with a more active execution phase. And that in my opinion is a big mistake, as the perfect combat system consists of all 3.  Which makes me sad that these developers dont see it that way. 

    And with only about 20 skills available to each class, the strategical part, or the choosing of the 7 active skills is also almost neglectible.  Because in games like GW1 this part was incredible nifty with players having access to hundreds of skills, but only 20 skills adds much strategic options. In the end this means people will see the flaws in the simplicity of the design and the lack of depth and move on.

     

    Either you agree with me or not, this is how i see it, and it makes me feel kind of sad that the current trent is replacing the old tactical layer with something more flashy instead of adding the flashy layer to the combat we knew.. Because all those telegraphs might actually work well, and so does a FPS targetting style combat, but not at the cost of things that have proven to be a valuable asset.

     

     

    Choosing the right balance of offense, defense and utility is very strategic. 

    I don't see how having 'only' 7 skills reduces the tactical level.  LoL has 4 skills and that is very tactical, if not making it MORE tactical.  Using offensive skills in a utility fashion to run away or chase.  There is massive potential for tactically timing skills, combos, multi-target.....  

    Action oriented combat needs execution to make tactical decisions work.

    I see wildstar as having all 3, so I'm not sure where you think Wildstar is really lacking.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    It is 8 buttons on the LAS guys, not 7.  They increased it awhile back.
  • ArskaaaArskaaa KauhajokiPosts: 841Member Uncommon

    Tis game dies like age of conan, tera, GW2.

    ppl want new combat system and after playing game few week they get bored of it and stop playing.

    also game looks outdatet imo. even wow looks more pretty. (yeah).

  • indojabijinindojabijin Posts: 88Member Uncommon
    No one has mentioned Guild Wars which uses the same system - and honestly it works well in that game. If done right it can lead to very competitive gameplay and pvp.
  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Arskaaa

    Tis game dies like age of conan, tera, GW2.

    ppl want new combat system and after playing game few week they get bored of it and stop playing.

    also game looks outdatet imo. even wow looks more pretty. (yeah).

    Why does a different combat system make the game boring within a few weeks?  There is absolutely zero logical reasoning within that statement.

    I am glad you don't like our game.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    I have to disagree.

    But only in case its similar to D3 skill system.

    In other words, having a large pool of skills, but having to choose 7 from them to encounter.

     

    1.You have a strategy of choosing the right setup for the encounter. 

    2.You have tactic of proper rotation.

    3.And you have action of pressing the right key in right time.

     

    In games where you have all skills bared.

    You are lacking the first step , since you don't have to choose nothing.

    And combat is lacking in third step, because having 20 skills is hard to have bind to keyboard.

    So you have to mouse them.

     

    Now, only question is - will they give you enough skills to have actual strategy, and will they let you modify the bar when ever you want.

     

    Rotations are something you plan ahead of time, they are not tactical in nature, they are more strategical..  So a game where all there is in choosing the right skills is a single rotation over and over and over, then there is no tactical layer involved... tactical would mean that there are deviations and alternatives to the rotation needed to be made in real time to react to the mobs.

     

    in games where all players have all the skills for their classes available, there is a strategical layer in placing stat points speccing a class with passives, having an AA system, there is so many choices involved with building a character in todays MMOs that choosing your skillsetup is only part of the strategical layer, but far from being the whole strategical layer

     

    --------------

     

    I think people think that the developers think an interface with only 7 buttons works good... well let me tell them that 7 main skill buttons does not mean that there are only 7 skills...  imagine allowing people to build 3 or 4 personal stances with passive abbilities and such, and have a set of 7 skills available in every stance... this would allow players to actually change their roles based on what is happening in the combat, and this would deliver much much more dynamic classes and combat.

     

    However so far they announced that they want the builds of 7 skills to be all that needed for a class to perform in a single role... and precisely this fact could end up with dumbing down the players to mindless gameplay in a group or open world environment.

     

    I think its my preferences, because i allways have disliked playing the static DPS classes with strict rotation in any MMo so far.  I prefer Tanks, healers and crowd controllers, just for this reason. They have to tools needed for reactive combat where reactive combat means much much more then just jumping to safety at the right moment.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon

    It is not really more or less tactical, just a different time to use tactics. I prefer having more abilities available because it allows me to adapt during combat in case the encounter changes or shifts.

    I find that kind of tactics, deciding what to do if something unforeseen arises more satisfying than setting up something before hand and hope it works out. I setup things before hand regardless for what I usually encounter, but appreciate  the flexibility of having more skills at my disposal.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    I have to disagree.

    But only in case its similar to D3 skill system.

    In other words, having a large pool of skills, but having to choose 7 from them to encounter.

     

    1.You have a strategy of choosing the right setup for the encounter. 

    2.You have tactic of proper rotation.

    3.And you have action of pressing the right key in right time.

     

    In games where you have all skills bared.

    You are lacking the first step , since you don't have to choose nothing.

    And combat is lacking in third step, because having 20 skills is hard to have bind to keyboard.

    So you have to mouse them.

     

    Now, only question is - will they give you enough skills to have actual strategy, and will they let you modify the bar when ever you want.

     

    Rotations are something you plan ahead of time, they are not tactical in nature, they are more strategical..  So a game where all there is in choosing the right skills is a single rotation over and over and over, then there is no tactical layer involved... tactical would mean that there are deviations and alternatives to the rotation needed to be made in real time to react to the mobs.

     

    I think people think that the developers think an interface with only 7 buttons works good... well let me tell them that 7 main skill buttons does not mean that there are only 7 skills...  imagine allowing people to build 3 or 4 personal stances with passive abbilities and such, and have a set of 7 skills available in every stance... this would allow players to actually change their roles based on what is happening in the combat, and this would deliver much much more dynamic classes and combat.

     

    However so far they announced that they want the builds of 7 skills to be all that needed for a class to perform in a single role... and precisely this fact could end up with dumbing down the players to mindless gameplay in a group or open world environment.

     

    I think its my preferences, because i allways have disliked playing the static DPS classes with strict rotation in any MMo so far.  I prefer Tanks, healers and crowd controllers, just for this reason. They have to tools needed for reactive combat where reactive combat means much much more then just jumping to safety at the right moment.

    Again, it is 8 buttons.

     

    Also, there is a rotation/priority system in place regardless.  When shit happens in game, then you deviate slightly, and then get back into it.  This has nothing to do with 8 buttons v/s 30.  So if you are saying there are no tactics with 8 buttons, then there are no tactics with 30.

     

     

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    **snip**

    Now wildstar is making exact the same mistake that Neverwinter and TSW did, both combat styles are pretty much alike, but having only 7 skills to choose from in real time redusces the tactical level to almost non excistant compared to other games that have many many more skills to choose from in real time. 

    They give you a system that allows you to build your character around a single tactic  and rotation, with maybe one or 2 situational skills.  This build however is not a tactical thing, but belongs in the strategical sphere.

    The big mistakes these developers make is replacing the old deep tactical gameplay with a more active execution phase. And that in my opinion is a big mistake, as the perfect combat system consists of all 3.  Which makes me sad that these developers dont see it that way. 

    You're so close to touching on a really good point, but you're focusing on completely the wrong thing.

    As was mentioned  earlier in the thread, games like Go, or Chess are VERY simple on the surface but have an insane amount of depth to them. THAT is the mark of good game design. Not cluttering your game will all kinds of skills. That's actually the mark of BAD game design. I'll explain:

    Guild Wars 1: For example, only allowed 8 skills. However, those 8 skills derived from a pool of 100s (now over 1000 i believe), nearly all of which had unique uses, unique counters, solved different problems. It also revolved around a system that had more than just 'damage, healing, mitigation'. There were damage types (elements, hexes vs. conditions, pure dmg, etc.), different methods of applying damage (delays, interrupts, self-inflicted, on-action), the complexity of which was also applied to types of mitigations, interrupts, heals, utility.

    The Secret World: Tried a similar approach, but the overlooked WHY it worked in GW1. It wasn't the limitation of skills that made it good (though that was an important factor), it was the diversity of options available, how they interacted, which were THEN limited by you (forcing you to have to make intelligent choices, and to figure out what to bring to any particular fight). This also allowed for a mix between builds that were made for versatility (had skills to answer a variety of problems), or builds that were built for specialization (had skills focused around 1 specific rotation or attack). Instead, TSW gave you a lot of skills, most of which essentially did the same thing, and added secondary mechanics to others; many of which were not necessary for the bulk of the game (i.e. buff stripping).

    - As you can see, 2 games focusing on a very similar approach to combat. The first focuses on diversity of choice. The 2nd focuses on the number of skills. It's not the number of skills that makes good combat design. It's the diversity of choices, the intricacy of which player's actions play off of one another, and the fluidity to which this all gets executed. In short, you don't need 1000 skills to have depth to your combat system, just interesting mechanics.

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