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Lots of Story & Phasing in ESO

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  • thexratedthexrated OuluPosts: 1,368Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Actually phasing when done right is the only thing that can truely give players a single player experience and immersion in an MMO world.

    Except an MMO should never try to tell a singleplayer story, because phasing has never done right. All it does is split people up and break immersion.

    Because it adds so much immersion, when you are standing in a same spot with fifteen other players waiting for a mob to spawn, so that you get a chance to loot a quest item from it. Oh, the respawn time is no less than 5 minutes and the one who does the most damage gets the loot rights. Just an example, but it actually used to be worse in few games.

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • IridescentOrkIridescentOrk Ellicott City, MDPosts: 157Member
    Not a big deal. Phasing in WoW was properly implemented. I think Zenimax will know how to do it right?

    gameplay > graphics

  • IridescentOrkIridescentOrk Ellicott City, MDPosts: 157Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Actually phasing when done right is the only thing that can truely give players a single player experience and immersion in an MMO world.

    Except an MMO should never try to tell a singleplayer story, because phasing has never done right. All it does is split people up and break immersion.

    ESO is not an MMO.

    gameplay > graphics

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,579Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    I'll pass on the phasing TYVM..  That is the only thing I can think technically that is worse then instancing..... Another BAD design mechanic that segregates the community..
     
    Yup, MMos that use instancing aren't worth touching.

    So why do you keep touching it? I'm amazed you still post in this forum. There must be some sick negative attraction for you.

    It's like a guy said the other day its just weird... Imagine going to the movie theater and standing in line. Meanwhile the guy in line behind you is going on about how bad the movie is going to be but is in line to see it.  Seems freaking oddball too me.

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 20,538Member Epic
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

      And THAT, is why story based MMOs don't work.

    No not at all.

    "And that is why story based mmo's made by developers who don't put player interaction as a driving force of development" don't work".

     

    Let's use your example; LOTRO.

    LOTRO (as you rightly said) puts as many impediments in the way of player groups as it can do. You want to help someone going into a cave for a particular quest? Best make sure you are on that quest or you CAN'T EVEN ENTER.

    All they would have to do is remove those barriers. People would just have to realize that doing story bits out of order means they would be "doing story bits out of order" and that would be that.

    They could even make it that the xp you get doesn't add into your total until you do the prior story bits if they wanted. Or just let the player have the xp/rewards and if the player wants the rest of the story they can go back.

    Heck in this type of game they can even scale the difficulty so that you arne your level 50 buddies aren't doing an instance made for a level 10.

     

  • BadOrbBadOrb ManchesterPosts: 791Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tazarconan
    All these are insignificant details really. Whether i ll play TES or not depends only an only in just a few things. 1.Combat system how well it will get implemented and if its really working. 2.Character progression system, how deep it is,and with a slow gear improvement so u cant cap everything in just a few months playing. 3. Working and fun pvp If any of the above aint work THEN id worry about TES .Not though about small details like instancing,phacing etc etc

    In reply to no 2 , well if you mean a few months on 1 character then i doubt it will take that long at all , maybe 2-3 weeks if you are lucky. How many classes are there in the game btw ?

    It was really interesting to read about LotRo , I never played it but sounds like a total immersion breaker , can't party up to do quests unless you are at that stage. I know in SWTOR that you would have to complete a starter planet if your friend was on a different one , then meet up on the second planet. At least after that you could play the whole rest of the game together. I know if you are the same class then you would have to repeat the class mission for those characters , which is a bit of an immersion breaker. Anyways good to hear some games are less of an MMO than SWTOR , good news indeed. 

    Cheers,

    BadOrb.

    PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
    "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
    The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  • gamekid2kgamekid2k Austin, TXPosts: 360Member
    Originally posted by Tierless
    At this point a game like Darkfall is more true to TES than TES is...sad really.

    Actually this is very true. 

    Example:

    The combat in Dark Fall is more like Skyrim  (action based) where it is suppose to be soft targeted for ESO

    There are no linear progression in Dark Fall but not in ESO

    You have open world housing but no in ESO

    You have open world pvp in Dark Fall but ESO PvP only limited to one area.

     

     

     

    Now Playing: DARKFALL Unholy Wars "Return to Open World, Full Loot PvP, Conquest in a Sandbox MMO with player driven economy! Just like classic MMOs!"

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 5,055Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/19/tamriel-infinium-phasing-the-elder-scrolls-online/#continued Let's see if they can implement it well and make ESO a good game.  

    Old news.

    That's why I've been saying since its announcement that this game will go the same route as SWTOR.

    I am happy to see that you consider it a good thing...............for me that's THE game killer (this and the Facebook integration...............Lol!)

  • PanzerbasePanzerbase Chicago, ILPosts: 423Member
    Originally posted by gamekid2k
    Originally posted by Tierless
    At this point a game like Darkfall is more true to TES than TES is...sad really.

    Actually this is very true. 

    Example:

    The combat in Dark Fall is more like Skyrim  (action based) where it is suppose to be soft targeted for ESO

    There are no linear progression in Dark Fall but not in ESO

    You have open world housing but no in ESO

    You have open world pvp in Dark Fall but ESO PvP only limited to one area.

     

     

     

    Excellent point, Dark Fall at its core is closer to Skyrim than ESO at this point. And phasing is more of a casual endeavor, I'm starting to think this game is going to be an appeal to all the masses type. 

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member Common
    Originally posted by thexrated
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Actually phasing when done right is the only thing that can truely give players a single player experience and immersion in an MMO world.

    Except an MMO should never try to tell a singleplayer story, because phasing has never done right. All it does is split people up and break immersion.

    Because it adds so much immersion, when you are standing in a same spot with fifteen other players waiting for a mob to spawn, so that you get a chance to loot a quest item from it.

    No. It doesn't. A properly designed MMO doesn't have everyone standing around waiting for a mob to spawn for a "quest item".

    And say you go into an instance for a special sword because you're the "chosen one". Well, what you do in the instance doesn't change once you leave the instance. The world is still full of monsters. Still full of players standing around, holding the supposedly one a kind items you just got in your "immersive" instance.

    Instances are a poor half assed illusion. They can never be used to properly tell a "singleplayer story" because that just flat out doesn't work in MMOs. Either devs can focus on telling a story that involves everyone, considering that's the point of MMOs, or they can make a singleplayer game with optional coop. The middle ground results in a clusterfuck, IE, SWTOR.

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 367Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Panzerbase    I'm starting to think this game is going to be an appeal to all the masses type.
     

    It does seem that Zenimax is trying to hit all the bases with this game

     

    Unfortunately I believe this will make ESO a Jack of all Trades Master of None game

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 7,475Member Epic
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    I'll pass on the phasing TYVM..  That is the only thing I can think technically that is worse then instancing..... Another BAD design mechanic that segregates the community..
     
    Yup, MMos that use instancing aren't worth touching.

    So why do you keep touching it? I'm amazed you still post in this forum. There must be some sick negative attraction for you.

    It's like a guy said the other day its just weird... Imagine going to the movie theater and standing in line. Meanwhile the guy in line behind you is going on about how bad the movie is going to be but is in line to see it.  Seems freaking oddball too me.

    I have some sympathy for the guy standing in line since most likely, someone dragged him there against his better judgement. If he's there by himself doing that? Yeah that's weird.

     

    Unless, I suppose, his enjoyment comes not from watching movies but rather from the awe (which he imagines) others feel when they hear him talking about how any movie with CGI is not a real movie and he won't go anywhere near them...oblivious to the fact that he's much more near them than the millions who are giving it a pass and are happily doing something else they actually enjoy...

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 7,475Member Epic
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by Panzerbase    I'm starting to think this game is going to be an appeal to all the masses type.
     

    It does seem that Zenimax is trying to hit all the bases with this game

     

    Unfortunately I believe this will make ESO a Jack of all Trades Master of None game

    I know eh? What's up with that? Why not make it for the 3 people who actually agree on everything an MMO shouldn't have.

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tierless
    At this point a game like Darkfall is more true to TES than TES is...sad really.

     

    More accurately, I'd say that Mortal Online is much closer to TES than TESO is.  MO is an actual sandbox.

    Having said that, I don't particularly care for phasing in games - it's weird to have multiple different players in different phases of the same place.  I'd prefer that gameworlds would change for everyone based on the actions of players, instead of solo based changes.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member Common
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by Tierless
    At this point a game like Darkfall is more true to TES than TES is...sad really.

     

    More accurately, I'd say that Mortal Online is much closer to TES than TESO is.  MO is an actual sandbox.

    Having said that, I don't particularly care for phasing in games - it's weird to have multiple different players in different phases of the same place.  I'd prefer that gameworlds would change for everyone based on the actions of players, instead of solo based changes.

    That's exactly what MMos should do. They should change and be influenced by the players.

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by Tierless
    At this point a game like Darkfall is more true to TES than TES is...sad really.

     

    More accurately, I'd say that Mortal Online is much closer to TES than TESO is.  MO is an actual sandbox.

    Having said that, I don't particularly care for phasing in games - it's weird to have multiple different players in different phases of the same place.  I'd prefer that gameworlds would change for everyone based on the actions of players, instead of solo based changes.

    That's exactly what MMos should do. They should change and be influenced by the players.

     

    Couldn't agree with you more.  Unfortunately, most games do not allow this.  They are largely static, or use phasing, which makes the gameworld seem far less meaningful.

    The one thing that sets MMOs apart is a persistent gameworld populated by massive populations.  MMO creators have done an excellent job of making that one difference completely meaningless in their games.  It's a major reason most of them have been garbage.  TESO is walking the same path.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Actually phasing when done right is the only thing that can truely give players a single player experience and immersion in an MMO world.  Now many people are not looking for such an experience, but many other more casual players are exactly looking for that.   Just ask yourself, did you like the story part of TSW, SWTOR and personal story in GW", then you surely are going to love this as it will give you a Skyrim experience inside an MMO.   As long as it is immersive, it can be done, as long as it keeps focussing players on the world and not on the actuall game mechanics, as long as it feels natural withouth to many loading screens, then it will work for the majorrity of MMo players, and thats still where the money is.

     

    TSW - I liked the quests and their background, more than the story for the mmo, but I really liked TSW, just ran out of content, but it was unique and I was impressed with what seems like a lot of time going into making something different.

     

    TOR - Story was ok, the interaction parts were horrible, my wife and I played the same class, but I played dark, and she played light choices, and it was 95%+ the same.  Also I am not a immersion junkie, but it was pretty silly everyone running around with the same companions that were supposed to be unique characters.  Played my free month, got my money worth.

     

    GW2 - Couldn't stand to play the game long enough to know how well they did the personal story stuff.

     

     

    Phasing may solve some of the problems with personal story and differences for people, but if the game is a ton of instancing, I do not know how well I will like it, no matter how well they do the story.  I am trying to not dig too deep into it, or even criticize anything that people are saying, or like it either.  I am going to wait till we have solid information, then I will decide.  It will also depend on the controls, if it is the same UI setup as NW, then I probably will not enjoy that aspect enough to not give it a go.

     

  • gamekid2kgamekid2k Austin, TXPosts: 360Member
    Originally posted by Xthos
    TSW - I liked the quests and their background, more than the story for the mmo, but I really liked TSW, just ran out of content, but it was unique and I was impressed with what seems like a lot of time going into making something different.

    GW2 - Couldn't stand to play the game long enough to know how well they did the personal story stuff.

     

    My biggest turn off in GW2 was when I was called a "hero" within the first FEW min of the game.  If I am already a hero why do I want to go through this char progression and long journey.  Shouldn't I be thinking about my 401k and retirement.

    Now Playing: DARKFALL Unholy Wars "Return to Open World, Full Loot PvP, Conquest in a Sandbox MMO with player driven economy! Just like classic MMOs!"

  • tazarconantazarconan athensPosts: 1,013Member
    Originally posted by BadOrb
    Originally posted by tazarconan
    All these are insignificant details really. Whether i ll play TES or not depends only an only in just a few things. 1.Combat system how well it will get implemented and if its really working. 2.Character progression system, how deep it is,and with a slow gear improvement so u cant cap everything in just a few months playing. 3. Working and fun pvp If any of the above aint work THEN id worry about TES .Not though about small details like instancing,phacing etc etc

    In reply to no 2 , well if you mean a few months on 1 character then i doubt it will take that long at all , maybe 2-3 weeks if you are lucky. How many classes are there in the game btw ?

    It was really interesting to read about LotRo , I never played it but sounds like a total immersion breaker , can't party up to do quests unless you are at that stage. I know in SWTOR that you would have to complete a starter planet if your friend was on a different one , then meet up on the second planet. At least after that you could play the whole rest of the game together. I know if you are the same class then you would have to repeat the class mission for those characters , which is a bit of an immersion breaker. Anyways good to hear some games are less of an MMO than SWTOR , good news indeed. 

    Cheers,

    BadOrb.

    wow wow Badorb,are u certain about this? Are you sure that after playing TESO with your character just a few weeks u ll be top geared? How do you know this???

     

  • khameleonkhameleon Posts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tierless
    At this point a game like Darkfall is more true to TES than TES is...sad really.

    hahahahahahhaaha.

     

    So glad I got my invite so I can just laugh at people like this guy that have no idea, but he thinks he does.

    GAME TIL YOU DIE!!!!

  • BadOrbBadOrb ManchesterPosts: 791Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tazarconan
    Originally posted by BadOrb
    Originally posted by tazarconan
    All these are insignificant details really. Whether i ll play TES or not depends only an only in just a few things. 1.Combat system how well it will get implemented and if its really working. 2.Character progression system, how deep it is,and with a slow gear improvement so u cant cap everything in just a few months playing. 3. Working and fun pvp If any of the above aint work THEN id worry about TES .Not though about small details like instancing,phacing etc etc

    In reply to no 2 , well if you mean a few months on 1 character then i doubt it will take that long at all , maybe 2-3 weeks if you are lucky. How many classes are there in the game btw ?

    It was really interesting to read about LotRo , I never played it but sounds like a total immersion breaker , can't party up to do quests unless you are at that stage. I know in SWTOR that you would have to complete a starter planet if your friend was on a different one , then meet up on the second planet. At least after that you could play the whole rest of the game together. I know if you are the same class then you would have to repeat the class mission for those characters , which is a bit of an immersion breaker. Anyways good to hear some games are less of an MMO than SWTOR , good news indeed. 

    Cheers,

    BadOrb.

    wow wow Badorb,are u certain about this? Are you sure that after playing TESO with your character just a few weeks u ll be top geared? How do you know this???

     

    As I said the words "I doubt it will take that long" ( a few months ) , I just feel like the MMO gamer who rushes to end game will have it done in about 2-3 weeks , they rush themeparks ( some people do ) to get to end game then complete everything at end-game very quickly. I miss the MMO's that take a few months ( like you described ) to get everything ( top gear ) in-game. I guess it's a bit of a plague for themeparks , very hard to give enough content to keep a player busy , if they play on one character. I hope I'm wrong though. I don't want another short MMO like SWTOR. Don't get me wrong I like SWTOR but having 16 characters is a bit much I prefer 4-6 tops in an MMO.

    Cheers,

    BadOrb.

    PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
    "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
    The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Posts: 2,479Member Uncommon

    To those who don't understand phasing.  It is a way to visually show the player what their choices have altered in the game world.  While the idea sounds great in theory, it usually fails upon execution.  Let's throw out a small example.

     

    Player A and player B have just completed a phasing quest.  This quest dramatically changes the appearance of a city, for example.  We'll say player A has saved the city.  As player A enters, he/she is greeted by townsfolk praising them, cheering, etc etc.  Now, let's say player B helps the city to it's demise.  So, player B sees a city in ruin, and it is overrun by a NPC enemy faction. 

     

    Cool right?  Both players get to see the world differently based on their actions.  Except...

     

    Player A wants to group with player B.  Player A needs to go into town to drop some things off, gather supplies, what have you.  Player B has to leave the group locally and travel to another city, because in player B's world, the city is destroyed and there are no supplies to be had.  This would create frustration for both players, because they have to take extra time to meet back up.

     

    Alright, no big deal right?  Let's move on...

     

    Not only are players forced to go elsewhere in this example, if they are actually in the same phased area, they will likely become invisible to each other, since the game has moved each player to their own phase.  Now, some games will drop your group entirely, which forces you to re-create your group upon leaving the phased area.  This is incredibly frustrating.  Though, some games will keep your group active, but grey out the player that is no longer sharing the same game world.  This sort of thing can create a ton of issues.  What if you are in a high level area and you are relying on your mate for backup?  Only to turn around and see that they aren't in the same phase and you are getting your behind handed to you?

     

    Alright..  so I hear the argument that it's a great mechanic because it allows people to still feel like they have some control over the world.  Wrong.  You have control over a phase of the world and you can only share it with certain people who chose as you did.  It's basically like their campaign system, except on a much smaller scale.  There can be 100 campaigns going on, and all will end differently.  There is nothing that you are doing that is actually affecting the game world.  The developers are just giving you the illusion that you are actually able to change things.  When you win in campaign 34 and lose in campaign 26, what have you actually gained?  Nothing.  The game world is unchanged in exception for a few phasing changes, which in reality, is just a temporary thing that you can't even really control.

     

    These are the type of immersion breakers that I hate in MMO's.  They, in themselves, are anti-community building tools.  They push the ideology of MMO's in the other direction.  Things like quest finder, dungeon finder, auction houses, instant travel, instant-rez, instanced housing and other mechanics that over-simplify your gaming experience.  Megaservers are the devil in my opinion.  All of those are good in limited form, but if used exclusively and found common, are often reason why I do not play a game.  I, personally, am not looking for a realistic virtual world.  But, I am looking for something that has some soul.  I enjoy game mechanics that promote hard work and in the end, potential consequences for failure.  I enjoy the RP aspect for RPG's.  I'm not really talking about a group of people all talking to each other as their characters world, I'm talking about mechanics that promote community, face to face interactions. 

     

    If you like phasing, so be it.  It honestly doesn't make any sense to me from a player standpoint.  To me, it's just a tool that developers use in order to be lazy. 

  • page975page975 Scranton, PAPosts: 312Member
    Originally posted by DAS1337
    To those who don't understand phasing.  It is a way to visually show the player what their choices have altered in the game world.  While the idea sounds great in theory, it usually fails upon execution.  Let's throw out a small example.   Player A and player B have just completed a phasing quest.  This quest dramatically changes the appearance of a city, for example.  We'll say player A has saved the city.  As player A enters, he/she is greeted by townsfolk praising them, cheering, etc etc.  Now, let's say player B helps the city to it's demise.  So, player B sees a city in ruin, and it is overrun by a NPC enemy faction.    Cool right?  Both players get to see the world differently based on their actions.  Except...   Player A wants to group with player B.  Player A needs to go into town to drop some things off, gather supplies, what have you.  Player B has to leave the group locally and travel to another city, because in player B's world, the city is destroyed and there are no supplies to be had.  This would create frustration for both players, because they have to take extra time to meet back up.   Alright, no big deal right?  Let's move on...   Not only are players forced to go elsewhere in this example, if they are actually in the same phased area, they will likely become invisible to each other, since the game has moved each player to their own phase.  Now, some games will drop your group entirely, which forces you to re-create your group upon leaving the phased area.  This is incredibly frustrating.  Though, some games will keep your group active, but grey out the player that is no longer sharing the same game world.  This sort of thing can create a ton of issues.  What if you are in a high level area and you are relying on your mate for backup?  Only to turn around and see that they aren't in the same phase and you are getting your behind handed to you?   Alright..  so I hear the argument that it's a great mechanic because it allows people to still feel like they have some control over the world.  Wrong.  You have control over a phase of the world and you can only share it with certain people who chose as you did.  It's basically like their campaign system, except on a much smaller scale.  There can be 100 campaigns going on, and all will end differently.  There is nothing that you are doing that is actually affecting the game world.  The developers are just giving you the illusion that you are actually able to change things.  When you win in campaign 34 and lose in campaign 26, what have you actually gained?  Nothing.  The game world is unchanged in exception for a few phasing changes, which in reality, is just a temporary thing that you can't even really control.   These are the type of immersion breakers that I hate in MMO's.  They, in themselves, are anti-community building tools.  They push the ideology of MMO's in the other direction.  Things like quest finder, dungeon finder, auction houses, instant travel, instant-rez, instanced housing and other mechanics that over-simplify your gaming experience.  Megaservers are the devil in my opinion.  All of those are good in limited form, but if used exclusively and found common, are often reason why I do not play a game.  I, personally, am not looking for a realistic virtual world.  But, I am looking for something that has some soul.  I enjoy game mechanics that promote hard work and in the end, potential consequences for failure.  I enjoy the RP aspect for RPG's.  I'm not really talking about a group of people all talking to each other as their characters world, I'm talking about mechanics that promote community, face to face interactions.    If you like phasing, so be it.  It honestly doesn't make any sense to me from a player standpoint.  To me, it's just a tool that developers use in order to be lazy. 

    You know what DAS....Your right, I agree 100%, 

    But what you don't know is that most of the people are not really mmo players and they don't care about mmos, they are looking for FREE 2 PLAY !

    They would like a fun fun game to play for a few weeks until they have to pay something and on to the next. They don't care about friends, grouping  or community.  They dont care about two months down the road or care about others, they may join a guild to do a little chatting as long as its just nonsence.

    They are looking for a free game to play.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member Uncommon
    Phasing is the reason ESO dropped off my personal hype meter like a meteor.
  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 782Member Uncommon

    Never seen anything wrong with phasing as long as it is done correct. Since the game is yet to be out, again I will not judge it just yet because I do not judge things based on nothing or other games that have nothing to do with it.

    Also, even if they do happen to get it wrong, it maybe forgivable depending on the rest of the game.

    Only time will tell really.

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