Agree with ya OP, I'm hoping that EQNext will be the most frustrating experience in my life so i will be playing with tears in my eyes, breaking keyboards on my own head, raping mouse and still just can't get enough of game.
In Rift if I cast a heal that took 10 seconds the tank would be dead .
Combat is a lot more fast paced in Rift compared to EQ1 .
I remember playing enchanter and keeping mobs mezed so group could single target mobs .
In RIFT , people use AOE and crowd control is unknown in that game .
The mechanics in todays games are a bit more advanced but it would be nice to have more CC in games .
There are CCs in most todays mmorpg, tehre's just not that kind of CC that makes you sleep for 30 seconds. Instead there are shorter CCs that last a few seconds, that help you to kite,help your team from getting hit, slow enemies attack speed, stun them, immobilize etc. There's a lot of CC, at least in GW2 and Rift.
I like your comments here OP. I think game pacing and voice are a part of this problem.In a game like EQ/UO TeamSpeak's code wasn't even written yet. People communicated in game via text, and it allowed for more frequent, casual role-play.The game pacing understood that you couldn't call out things on TeamSpeak/Vent and therefore the game's were paced much slower to allow for tactics, etc while you fought. A wipe would cause considerable conversation on strategy as the consequences were also typically more intense.I hope this game isn't action- style as well. There are plenty of titles (and good ones) for action players, especially single player games.
Actually you would be pleasantly surprised to know that tactics were possible without teamspeak.
You had to be a really fast typer, lol and alot of the Internet bastardizing of the English language started then.
Isn't this called the trinity combat system? Where you have healers, tanks, and dps? Oh, and CC too, but that's not really a role any longer I guess. This does make for some really good fights, but it also makes for a lot of people who get excluded from fights because they picked the wrong class, or worse, the wrong class for a particular role. Or nobody really wants to play a tank because the job really sucks. Then you have to start balancing the classes so that all the classes and roles are viable, and then PvP rears its ugly head.
If they can solve all the problems that nobody has really solved except by giving everyone nearly everything, then yeah, sure, by all means, do it. Given a choice between the watered down roles and faster combat systems, I'd choose faster combat systems.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
As long as the core elements (combat, crafting, etc.) are fun, IMO you can make it harder and people won't care. It's the combination of hard and redundant/repetitive gameplay that can't work.
In Rift if I cast a heal that took 10 seconds the tank would be dead .
Combat is a lot more fast paced in Rift compared to EQ1 .
I remember playing enchanter and keeping mobs mezed so group could single target mobs .
In RIFT , people use AOE and crowd control is unknown in that game .
The mechanics in todays games are a bit more advanced but it would be nice to have more CC in games .
There are CCs in most todays mmorpg, tehre's just not that kind of CC that makes you sleep for 30 seconds. Instead there are shorter CCs that last a few seconds, that help you to kite,help your team from getting hit, slow enemies attack speed, stun them, immobilize etc. There's a lot of CC, at least in GW2 and Rift.
Primary reason is because of PvP. Yet another reason I hate it as no one wants to spend all their time in CC chains so developers have reduced its effectiveness and given everyone the ability to be either immune to it or make the duration so short that it becomes rather pointless. In a PvE focused game you can have Mezzes, Roots and Sleeps that last for 30 secs to a min. In fact its why I always advocate the inclusion of a specific debuffing class as a requirement in group content. The more required roles the better.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I like your comments here OP. I think game pacing and voice are a part of this problem.
In a game like EQ/UO TeamSpeak's code wasn't even written yet. People communicated in game via text, and it allowed for more frequent, casual role-play.
The game pacing understood that you couldn't call out things on TeamSpeak/Vent and therefore the game's were paced much slower to allow for tactics, etc while you fought. A wipe would cause considerable conversation on strategy as the consequences were also typically more intense.
I hope this game isn't action- style as well. There are plenty of titles (and good ones) for action players, especially single player games.
Actually you would be pleasantly surprised to know that tactics were possible without teamspeak. You had to be a really fast typer, lol and alot of the Internet bastardizing of the English language started then.
Raid leaders, class leaders, and people that were in charge of groups/sections of 72 person raids would macro things that they would need to say or tell people to do. Tactics and what could happen were went over on the way to the fight, while clearing trash mobs and smaller stuff. People used different color text for the important stuff, to make sure not to miss what was being said, and filtered out stuff that may spam them with things they didn't need.
Voice stuff started coming out earlier in EQ, but it wasn't real popular for a while. With pre-planning, macros, and such, yeah people did just fine giving out tactics and getting people to do what was needed.
I have done both, and to be honest, voice isn't that superior, its easier to be told a audible, 'now', or 'its starting', or whatever, and not miss it, as someone hitting a macro to say a command could more easily be missed, but for me, I never really had a problem missing it, but as I raided a good amount, I didn't really need to be told much anyway.
Isn't this called the trinity combat system? Where you have healers, tanks, and dps? Oh, and CC too, but that's not really a role any longer I guess. This does make for some really good fights, but it also makes for a lot of people who get excluded from fights because they picked the wrong class, or worse, the wrong class for a particular role. Or nobody really wants to play a tank because the job really sucks. Then you have to start balancing the classes so that all the classes and roles are viable, and then PvP rears its ugly head.
If they can solve all the problems that nobody has really solved except by giving everyone nearly everything, then yeah, sure, by all means, do it. Given a choice between the watered down roles and faster combat systems, I'd choose faster combat systems.
I am glad that you mentioned CC.
The current version of the trinity system involves Heals, Tank, and DPS. The EQ 1 trinity was heal, tank, and CC. DPS was filler. If your group had heals tank and CC you could hold any camp. Crowd control in EQ 1 was so important that it was a part of the trinity.
Also the skill sets for each class were a bit basic and the 10 second complete heal was very slow. but knowing all your skills and spells and when to use them was the complexity. Players that knew how other classes would be in their groups and when and how to interact were very skilled.
Unfortunately the glue that kept all of this together was horrible consequences for death and the extreme difficulty incurred when you had a total party wipe. Players where much less powerful as soloists, but groups and guilds of skilled players were like rockstars.
And the post above about needing an addiction was right on. Our drugs have stopped working and I worry that the proliferation of the genre and our own impatience will never let us be truly addicted again.
First off.. Stop using Fun like its a swear word.. LOL Fun is completely perception based and a personal taste issue. Saying that you hope the game isn't "fun" and then listing the reasons other games are not to your taste is basically saying that you find the games fun but don't like them at the same time. Complete oxymoron.
Yes, you are right, what is fun is a matter of taste. But I think you don't understand where he's coming from. He did not invent this twisted perception of "Fun" instead he is referring to other people on this forum and elsewhere that use the term fun to describe their preferred style of gameplay.
I've seen it many times, whenever someone is talking about a feature that does not evolve around fighting and getting rewards, someone will tell him that this is not "fun". There are people that have a very onedimensional perception of fun and set it synonymously with minute to minute enjoyment and often also instant gratification.
He's just conflating the ideas of "fun!" mmo's with more sacharin sweet "easy" manageable mmo's.
He's saying that those mmo's that promise Fun NOW! are the type of mmo's that don't last long for players and instead wants an mmo that isn't always FUN NOW but that offers experiences that are challenging, maybe even frustrating, but that in the end are very satisfying in the long run.
I would say (and I believe this has already been offered above) that all mmo's are made to be fun and that it's just a particular type of player who wants the latter.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I've seen it many times, whenever someone is talking about a feature that does not evolve around fighting and getting rewards, someone will tell him that this is not "fun". There are people that have a very onedimensional perception of fun and set it synonymously with minute to minute enjoyment and often also instant gratification.
Like the people who don't want to wait for a ferry or who don't want to travel in the world.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
1. Dungeons and Dragons based combat. Relies on stats which modify the random generation of chance. It's also turn based. Combat can be done without any hit boxes in fact no graphical interface is needed, only intentions are traded. Victory can be determined before hand solely based on the stats of the situation. Tends to me more cerebral relying on strategy and careful planning of use of skills in the right order.
2. Action combat which has more in common with old school arcade games like Double Dragon or modern games like Devil May Cry. This relies on types of attacks, positioning of the characters and avoidance of graphic/visual indicators. Success is determined by quick reflexes and fast processing of visual indictors.
Obviously most games are a mix of two with more of one than the other. EQ1 tends to the former and GW2 towards the later. I'm not sure which direction EQN will go. Since EQN is an Everquest game I would assume it will continue the trend of the previous games. However if they wanted to follow current gaming trends then it would be more action combat.
I understand your post OP and I actually agree with you.
I hope EQNext is not fun, simply because I believe that all the people who say that a MMO is "fun", don't understand what makes a MMO "great" (and fun)
So I am scared when peopl start to say that a MMO is "fun".
It all started with WAR where everyone was saying the game was "fun" while I was saying the game was boring and tedious..............guess who was right.
I've seen the same thing for every MMO launched since then.
I hope EQNext will be addictive and challenging (that's fun for me), I don't want it to be that kind of "fun"
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Well from what i've heard this will be a f2p game so they will be going for a large playerbase as apposed to niche so they can make money. With that in mind I think they will go for "fun" as thats what most people/gamers like, action. Now I for one lean towards the twitch action style as I came up more on street fighter than d&d but I understand why people like one, the other, or both. I hope it meets your expectations but I'm reminded of a saying "desire leads to suffering". Hope you get the game you want though op. Will be interesting to see how this turns out as all I've seen is some concept art that has already seemed to raise some controversy amongst players.
There are some games you can play for a few weeks and will have done everything and seen everything there is. Others may take 2 months or more.
I am looking for a game that has the ability to last a long time and provide me with hundreds of hours of enjoyment.
As others have mentioned, there are different types of "fun" for every gamer. Some are totally satisfied with a few games of solitaire. Others need something with hand eye coordination so they will do some pinball or fighting games. Next you have those interested in strategy and planning, large group and community and much more. They are the oldschool mmo player.
Obviously there are many degrees within this structure. But the point is that without spending much time in a gaming world learning the dungeons and encounters, sometimes taking a week or longer just to break into an area a bit and mentally map where drop offs are or slippery ledges or possible named spawning locations. This is just the initial portion of pug grouping. Then the raid level progression comes into play and a whole different set of dynamics must be learned for encounters so the raid can operate as one, with each person filling specific rolls.
This was EQ and could also be EQ Next. I think EQ Next will add many more layers to what was already a great game. This whole sandbox portion is the most interesting part to me. UO was the most sandbox I have ever played and it was very fun in it's time. If they can somehow provide as much versatility in EQ and keep EQ's version of "Fun" intact, and then crank that "fun" up another 4 notches with this sandbox portion, I will be a happy camper.
I'm glad some people got where I was going with that. Obviously everyone wants a fun game. I just think developers forget that the player base that created the community WAS having fun with systems in place. We have other game options for high speed, no-thought action.
Originally posted by TheHavok Wat...I don't even....
You need to read between the lines.
The OP didn't meant that the game has to be boring.......................just not the SWTOR kind of "fun"
To understand what I mean go back before SWTOR release and check how many people were having "fun"..........then check how many people are playing the game now
The more games have been streamlined and homogenized, the less deep, rewarding, challenging and most of all SATISFYING they have been.
Crappy modern MMO's (the WoW clones et al) are what happens when you cater to the masses. We want X, we want Y.... So much effort was spent on making things pretty and smooth and so little effort was spent on making a good game. So not only do we get bad games, but not people have certain standards set in their mind about how smooth and streamlined games can be. So they want deep well-made games, but also they want them to be streamlined and smooth enough to compare t o the AAA games that primarily focus on those shallow aspects.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think there is too much emphasis on combat systems currently. Its not so much the type of combat, but the fact that none of the other systems which make an mmo complete even get a fraction of the development time as combat. We as gamer's really aren't left with a lot of engaging gameplay options so it feels more like a one and done type console experience.
I think there is absolutely a demand a strong presence for that type of mmo. But I also think that there are a lot of gamers that get discouraged trying to find a new mmo that is not like that.
Despite its many many flaws, Teras combat is fantastic. The endgame required coordination, skill, and a deep understanding of your class and abilities. They found a way to keep everyone involved in combat without moving away from the trinity, and the slightest hesitation from one party member could spell defeat. No game can even comes close to what Tera offers with its combat. Too bad the rest of the game is shallow and dull.
Comments
There are CCs in most todays mmorpg, tehre's just not that kind of CC that makes you sleep for 30 seconds. Instead there are shorter CCs that last a few seconds, that help you to kite,help your team from getting hit, slow enemies attack speed, stun them, immobilize etc. There's a lot of CC, at least in GW2 and Rift.
Actually you would be pleasantly surprised to know that tactics were possible without teamspeak.You had to be a really fast typer, lol and alot of the Internet bastardizing of the English language started then.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
Isn't this called the trinity combat system? Where you have healers, tanks, and dps? Oh, and CC too, but that's not really a role any longer I guess. This does make for some really good fights, but it also makes for a lot of people who get excluded from fights because they picked the wrong class, or worse, the wrong class for a particular role. Or nobody really wants to play a tank because the job really sucks. Then you have to start balancing the classes so that all the classes and roles are viable, and then PvP rears its ugly head.
If they can solve all the problems that nobody has really solved except by giving everyone nearly everything, then yeah, sure, by all means, do it. Given a choice between the watered down roles and faster combat systems, I'd choose faster combat systems.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Who knows, maybe EQN is both fun and hard.
Primary reason is because of PvP. Yet another reason I hate it as no one wants to spend all their time in CC chains so developers have reduced its effectiveness and given everyone the ability to be either immune to it or make the duration so short that it becomes rather pointless. In a PvE focused game you can have Mezzes, Roots and Sleeps that last for 30 secs to a min. In fact its why I always advocate the inclusion of a specific debuffing class as a requirement in group content. The more required roles the better.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Raid leaders, class leaders, and people that were in charge of groups/sections of 72 person raids would macro things that they would need to say or tell people to do. Tactics and what could happen were went over on the way to the fight, while clearing trash mobs and smaller stuff. People used different color text for the important stuff, to make sure not to miss what was being said, and filtered out stuff that may spam them with things they didn't need.
Voice stuff started coming out earlier in EQ, but it wasn't real popular for a while. With pre-planning, macros, and such, yeah people did just fine giving out tactics and getting people to do what was needed.
I have done both, and to be honest, voice isn't that superior, its easier to be told a audible, 'now', or 'its starting', or whatever, and not miss it, as someone hitting a macro to say a command could more easily be missed, but for me, I never really had a problem missing it, but as I raided a good amount, I didn't really need to be told much anyway.
I am glad that you mentioned CC.
The current version of the trinity system involves Heals, Tank, and DPS. The EQ 1 trinity was heal, tank, and CC. DPS was filler. If your group had heals tank and CC you could hold any camp. Crowd control in EQ 1 was so important that it was a part of the trinity.
Also the skill sets for each class were a bit basic and the 10 second complete heal was very slow. but knowing all your skills and spells and when to use them was the complexity. Players that knew how other classes would be in their groups and when and how to interact were very skilled.
Unfortunately the glue that kept all of this together was horrible consequences for death and the extreme difficulty incurred when you had a total party wipe. Players where much less powerful as soloists, but groups and guilds of skilled players were like rockstars.
And the post above about needing an addiction was right on. Our drugs have stopped working and I worry that the proliferation of the genre and our own impatience will never let us be truly addicted again.
I've seen it many times, whenever someone is talking about a feature that does not evolve around fighting and getting rewards, someone will tell him that this is not "fun". There are people that have a very onedimensional perception of fun and set it synonymously with minute to minute enjoyment and often also instant gratification.
he's not a troll at all.
He's just conflating the ideas of "fun!" mmo's with more sacharin sweet "easy" manageable mmo's.
He's saying that those mmo's that promise Fun NOW! are the type of mmo's that don't last long for players and instead wants an mmo that isn't always FUN NOW but that offers experiences that are challenging, maybe even frustrating, but that in the end are very satisfying in the long run.
I would say (and I believe this has already been offered above) that all mmo's are made to be fun and that it's just a particular type of player who wants the latter.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Like the people who don't want to wait for a ferry or who don't want to travel in the world.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Theres two types of combat in MMOs
1. Dungeons and Dragons based combat. Relies on stats which modify the random generation of chance. It's also turn based. Combat can be done without any hit boxes in fact no graphical interface is needed, only intentions are traded. Victory can be determined before hand solely based on the stats of the situation. Tends to me more cerebral relying on strategy and careful planning of use of skills in the right order.
2. Action combat which has more in common with old school arcade games like Double Dragon or modern games like Devil May Cry. This relies on types of attacks, positioning of the characters and avoidance of graphic/visual indicators. Success is determined by quick reflexes and fast processing of visual indictors.
Obviously most games are a mix of two with more of one than the other. EQ1 tends to the former and GW2 towards the later. I'm not sure which direction EQN will go. Since EQN is an Everquest game I would assume it will continue the trend of the previous games. However if they wanted to follow current gaming trends then it would be more action combat.
I understand your post OP and I actually agree with you.
I hope EQNext is not fun, simply because I believe that all the people who say that a MMO is "fun", don't understand what makes a MMO "great" (and fun)
So I am scared when peopl start to say that a MMO is "fun".
It all started with WAR where everyone was saying the game was "fun" while I was saying the game was boring and tedious..............guess who was right.
I've seen the same thing for every MMO launched since then.
I hope EQNext will be addictive and challenging (that's fun for me), I don't want it to be that kind of "fun"
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
There are some games you can play for a few weeks and will have done everything and seen everything there is. Others may take 2 months or more.
I am looking for a game that has the ability to last a long time and provide me with hundreds of hours of enjoyment.
As others have mentioned, there are different types of "fun" for every gamer. Some are totally satisfied with a few games of solitaire. Others need something with hand eye coordination so they will do some pinball or fighting games. Next you have those interested in strategy and planning, large group and community and much more. They are the oldschool mmo player.
Obviously there are many degrees within this structure. But the point is that without spending much time in a gaming world learning the dungeons and encounters, sometimes taking a week or longer just to break into an area a bit and mentally map where drop offs are or slippery ledges or possible named spawning locations. This is just the initial portion of pug grouping. Then the raid level progression comes into play and a whole different set of dynamics must be learned for encounters so the raid can operate as one, with each person filling specific rolls.
This was EQ and could also be EQ Next. I think EQ Next will add many more layers to what was already a great game. This whole sandbox portion is the most interesting part to me. UO was the most sandbox I have ever played and it was very fun in it's time. If they can somehow provide as much versatility in EQ and keep EQ's version of "Fun" intact, and then crank that "fun" up another 4 notches with this sandbox portion, I will be a happy camper.
You need to read between the lines.
The OP didn't meant that the game has to be boring.......................just not the SWTOR kind of "fun"
To understand what I mean go back before SWTOR release and check how many people were having "fun"..........then check how many people are playing the game now
+1 OP.
The more games have been streamlined and homogenized, the less deep, rewarding, challenging and most of all SATISFYING they have been.
Crappy modern MMO's (the WoW clones et al) are what happens when you cater to the masses. We want X, we want Y.... So much effort was spent on making things pretty and smooth and so little effort was spent on making a good game. So not only do we get bad games, but not people have certain standards set in their mind about how smooth and streamlined games can be. So they want deep well-made games, but also they want them to be streamlined and smooth enough to compare t o the AAA games that primarily focus on those shallow aspects.
Agree with the OP, I look for a return to the days of a bit more challenge, more frustration, sometimes to the point of just pissing you off royally.
But when you finally overcome that hurdle, it seems much more satisfying to know you succeeded.
Guess I'm looking for an MMORPG the rewards patience and perseverance, which are mostly absent in most modern day mmorpgs.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's what the OP meant, and I agree with it.
I think there is too much emphasis on combat systems currently. Its not so much the type of combat, but the fact that none of the other systems which make an mmo complete even get a fraction of the development time as combat. We as gamer's really aren't left with a lot of engaging gameplay options so it feels more like a one and done type console experience.
I think there is absolutely a demand a strong presence for that type of mmo. But I also think that there are a lot of gamers that get discouraged trying to find a new mmo that is not like that.
I would suggest the combat will be very similar to EQ2 .
Why break something that isn't broken .