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Would you play a MMORPG without character-progression?

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Comments

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,763Member Uncommon
    Character progression is probably the number 1 thing I look for in a MMO...i always have to ahve the need to improve and have something to shoot for.....games wehre your character is predetermined never work for me.
  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon
    Nope. 

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Depends on the MMO. I enjoyed it in Puzzle Pirates, played several characters with disregard for stats in UO (RP), and have enjoyed my time in Kaneva, Second Life and vMTV.  For me, it all depends on what the gameplay is if it isn't character advancement.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter fewefw, CTPosts: 607Member

    I think you are clinging to an outdated version of what RPG means...

    RPG doesn't mean a game you roleplay in. That's part of the term but that meaning is quite outdated. The fact that you had to go back to "days of old" is evidence of that. Realistically, you can roleplay in any genre, but only certain games are RPG's. You can't undo centuries of RPG development by Shadowrun.

    RPG's are defined by progression that is manifested as player's experiences with the world. Baldur's Gate definitely has that and there's more to progression than levels, it also involves items, reputation, results of choices, etc., all of these specify that the character you have now is not the one you had before. That is what makes an RPG since that has to be defined in the game itself (ergo, character data), and not outside the game (a player's skill or experience).

    Your perception of progression seems marred by how you see it in WoW or something, but MMORPG's are often very poor examples of RPG progression. What about GW1? You cap at 20 but you can still get new abilities or companions or you can leave your mark on the world. All of that is progression.

    What you're speaking of has progression. Crafting is a form of progression no matter how you spin it unless you have 50 items you can make straight away and they auto-destroy themselves. If they do not, you still have a form of progression in: "I have made everything in the game". When I play EVE my progression is closer to: "How many things can I make?" than to "How many skillpoints do I have".

    If I started EVE and could make everything in the game and everything was invented, and nobody needed my stuff, what exactly would I... do? Truly, you make no sense, you can't say "crafting" and "no progression" in the same sentence.

    Don't fight semantics, this is still an RPG and it still has progression, it's just more emergent and less power based is all you're saying.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Well even GW2 has some character progression and I play that, so honestly I don't know.  Sounds like a sandbox to me, and I'm waiting for a good one.
  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member
    Originally posted by Bigmamajama

    We must be running out of things to discuss here.

    How about an MMO that just consists of creating a character.  Like you know a gazillion options for character creation.  When your done with your character the game never loads because there is no game, you just make another character.

    I can come up dumb ideas for MMO's all day long.

     

     

      Whats funny about this is that I just made a comment in a different thread about City of Heroes...and now you've lined me up to do so again.  I have actually spent whole game sessions making character in that game.  It was enjoyable enough to BE the game.  So...we already had that MMO kinda.  And it rocked.

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  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,558Member Uncommon
    No. MMOs should be about virtual worlds and character building. I played enough boring ass console games in the 80s with nothing.
  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    No. MMOs should be about virtual worlds and character building. I played enough boring ass console games in the 80s with nothing.

     

      You aren't being completely fair.  Those games had something, just very small amounts of something.  Given that MMO gaming is considered a grander project of scope, you could safely assume it to contain more amounts of something.  While any one of those "boring ass console games" might have not been your favorite thing ever, I'd be hard pressed to believe you wouldn't enjoy a sum of their parts on a larger scale.

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  • Elevenb4Elevenb4 CajamarcaPosts: 282Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NagelRitter

    I think you are clinging to an outdated version of what RPG means...

    RPG doesn't mean a game you roleplay in. That's part of the term but that meaning is quite outdated. The fact that you had to go back to "days of old" is evidence of that. Realistically, you can roleplay in any genre, but only certain games are RPG's. You can't undo centuries of RPG development by Shadowrun.

    RPG's are defined by progression that is manifested as player's experiences with the world. Baldur's Gate definitely has that and there's more to progression than levels, it also involves items, reputation, results of choices, etc., all of these specify that the character you have now is not the one you had before. That is what makes an RPG since that has to be defined in the game itself (ergo, character data), and not outside the game (a player's skill or experience).

    Your perception of progression seems marred by how you see it in WoW or something, but MMORPG's are often very poor examples of RPG progression. What about GW1? You cap at 20 but you can still get new abilities or companions or you can leave your mark on the world. All of that is progression.

    What you're speaking of has progression. Crafting is a form of progression no matter how you spin it unless you have 50 items you can make straight away and they auto-destroy themselves. If they do not, you still have a form of progression in: "I have made everything in the game". When I play EVE my progression is closer to: "How many things can I make?" than to "How many skillpoints do I have".

    If I started EVE and could make everything in the game and everything was invented, and nobody needed my stuff, what exactly would I... do? Truly, you make no sense, you can't say "crafting" and "no progression" in the same sentence.

    Don't fight semantics, this is still an RPG and it still has progression, it's just more emergent and less power based is all you're saying.

    You basically just wrote out what I was trying to verbalize in my mind.


    To the OP,  like you said, you have a few contradictions in your post of things you want. You can say you want this aspect in an MMO, but how many other "aspects" do you have to give up to achieve this? I think if someone was dumb enough to spend money making something like this, it would be a complete waste of time and money. It wouldn't be successful at all.

    -Unconstitutional laws aren't laws.-

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    No i won't.

    In fact, i like my FPS, action games, and stealth games with some character progression too.

     

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yalexy

     


    Originally posted by rojo6934
    no. I dont want less features in my mmorpg.  I want more. Taking features out (or leaving good features out in exchange of other stuff) only affects the game negatively and im not wasting money or time on empty virtual worlds. EDIT: im ok not having levels, but character progression is not limited to leveling an exp bar and going up a number.

     

    There wouldn't be less features actually. You just wouldn't need to level up first or otherwise improve character-skills.

    Look at Skyrim for example and let's say you're given 60 skill-perks at charcter-creation to build your character the way you want. This wouldn't take anything away from the game imho.

     


    Originally posted by Bigmamajama
    We must be running out of things to discuss here.

     

    How about an MMO that just consists of creating a character.  Like you know a gazillion options for character creation.  When your done with your character the game never loads because there is no game, you just make another character.

    I can come up dumb ideas for MMO's all day long.


     

    For you it may be a stupid idea, but I'm rather serious about this topic, as I want to see more RPG in my MMO and less character-progression.

    In a MMORPG this would lead to a situation, where people would've characters not able to do certain content on their own, because they didn't chose the skills to do so, and suddenly they would be required to team up with others, who would have the macthing skill-set.

    No balancing-issues aswell, as the devs could tune the skills right away. And it would be awesome for open world PvP, as every player would be as strong as the others right away... no ganking noobs anymore.

     What's the point seriously? If your given everything at start and not ever gonna improve. Sure there's story but story without growth is VERY limited IMO. As the previous poster stated your removing things that make RPG's fun dumbing them down and adding nothing.

      While it might not be your intent your post sounds very much like the "I want it all and I want it now" complaint of some players that can't be bothered to play a game to get things and only rush through or buy things so they can get to the end game. 

      In RL one could look at this 2 ways...

    A) your start at 6 years of age and never grow, never learn simply stay static at 6  till you die.

     

    B) This is probably closer to what your wanting. You start life at say 21  at your peak with everything you need. You never  grow, learn, or gain anything everything has just been handed to you. You never have to work at anything as its never gonna get any better. It will be exactly like this no matter what till you die.

     

      Both seem pretty damn boring to me. 

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    No progression just sounds boring...

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Well even GW2 has some character progression and I play that, so honestly I don't know.  Sounds like a sandbox to me, and I'm waiting for a good one.

     Sandbox games have progression, anything that furthers your characters development is considered progression. Items, materials, character stats, and etc is progression. 

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yalexy

     


    Originally posted by NagelRitter

    Originally posted by Yalexy


    Where did it ever say, that you need character-progression to make it an MMORPG? Like I said, there was Pen&Paper RPGs like Shadowrun that didn't have character-progression.
    I guess I am having trouble understanding an RPG with no progression (levels, skills, anything) or development of any sort. That's typically considered a staple. I have never played Shadowrun. But every RPG I ever played had a form of progression. Do you have any examples that are recent computer games?

     

    If you play the campaign of Battlefield or Call of Duty you don't gain levels or skillpoints either, and these campaigns play basically like a RPG.

    Or take Baldurs Gate. Allthough there's progression, the progression is so little, that it could've lived without it actually. After playing through the whole game your char was what, LvL 9 or 10 maybe.

    I don't wanna do away customization, but I want it in the very beginning when you create your character, and the progression would be more in the way of some better equipment that is maybe some 20% better in the tops compared to the starter-gear.

    The progression isn't really needed, when the game is more about roleplaying, politics, waging wars against other guilds, being the best crafter or trader, or being the guy that knows every little corner of the world etc.
    The progression would be to make yourself a name in the game everyone remembers.

    Look at EvE Online. Allthough there's character-progression, the character-progression is not what the game is about really and some of the most respected and known persons never even fired a single shot, like Chribba.

     There are lots of types of progression, not just level. Balders gate had as much character progression as any game out IMO. Eve also has a lot of character progression if you put your skills toward better mining instead of shooting your still progressing. Do what you suggest and say ok hered your ship it will really never change and heres your skills they will really never change and EvE would fold.

      What if I'm bored of fighting and want to mine, sorry you can't that wasn't your skill setup at start. etc

     When you say you don't want progression your removing a hell of a lot. Why fight over territory if they territory has no effect? If it does have a effect then that's a form of progression.

      Sure never changing staticness works for short stories but for MMORPG's where players spends months and sometimes years I'd say it won't. There's only so many times people will want to work there way to the end of a story to find that basically NOTHING has changed because all forms of progression have been removed 

     

      

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    No. Long ago and far away what separated RPGs from Adventure games was that RPGs had character development and progression.

    In my view progression is a core defining characteristic of a MMORPG, but certainly you can have a MMO without it.

    OP has used EVE several times in this thread and I'm not sure why. Sure, you can jump right into some of the greater game elements, such as his Rifter example, but he is being disingenuous as he could never survive incursions or wormhole space without his character progressing some.

    In fact, EVE probably has the greatest progression curve of any game out there, by some estimates over 28 years of real time skill training, which is one big reason why it's my all time favorite MMORPG.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAPosts: 205Member
    An RPG without character progression feels like a very bare bones RPG
  • theAsnatheAsna AsnatownPosts: 321Member
    The progression we see in MMORPGs is just a mockery.

    Progression has been narrowed down to increasing in levels and updating gear. Part of the blame lies with the makers of such games. Since they know that they can't deliver enough content they try keep players in a constant upgrade cycle (i.e. "hamster wheel"). Just look at all those "endgame" threads where people complain about repetition of the same old or lack thereof.
    But part of the blame lies also with the players. The actual number of people that endulge in roleplay is rather small. These people won't have issues creating content for themselves (provided they can play on a server which is populated with enough like minded people). The others simply consume what the developers throw at them and that's it. They will step into the "hamster wheel". Maybe they will switch to another game, but in fact they never step out of the hamster wheel.

    The progression we have in today's MMORPGs has some drawbacks as well. Between a level 10 character and a level 50 character there is such a difference in power. The developers try to create content and balance it for a specified level range. That leaves only a small window of opportunity to experience that content "at level". That means the developers created content but the chance is higher that people will skip it when they outlevel said content. So all the effort was mainly for naught. Additionally this segregates players even more.

    It's rather a matter of balance. Yes, character progression (in all its different facets) is an element of RPGs. But sometimes less is more. It might bring back the other facets of progression (wishful thinking).

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    Character progression is what i love about MMOs, its the reason i hate getting to max level, because there is no progression anymore in most games.. (gear progression is not character progression as it does not change gameplay but only adds more stats)

     

    I really want the opposite, endless character progression..

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • stayBlindstayBlind Suwannee, GAPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Bigmamajama

    We must be running out of things to discuss here.

    How about an MMO that just consists of creating a character.  Like you know a gazillion options for character creation.  When your done with your character the game never loads because there is no game, you just make another character.

    I can come up dumb ideas for MMO's all day long.

    How about an MMO version of Progress Quest.

    Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  • DauntisDauntis Kansas City, MOPosts: 550Member Uncommon

    Well generally when I play an rpg, especially an mmorpg, my goal for my character is to survive. I do so by becoming increasingly more powerful and wealthy so that I can defend myself better. So if I played a game with no progression no levels, skills or equipment upgrades and I am as powerful as I will ever be from the moment I log in... then really the best thing I could do to ensure my characters survival would be logging right back off. So really better yet, never buy the game.

     

    No... no sir... I believe a game like this would not even appeal to the nicheist of niches. I mean, hell, you even have level progression in real life, why would you think removing it from a game would be a good idea?

     

    I would like to give an opinion on this post, but if I agree I will offend people who disagree. While if I disagree my comment will be seen as inflammatory. Either way I will get banned by this site full of the most delicate flowers in online gaming. Ban people for giving honest opinions... beautiful. Unfortunately I still like the articles.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,481Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yalexy

    Hello there.

    I'm really bored to death by all the leveling and skill-progression-systems in MMOs and RPGs.

    Lately I've played ME:Trilogy and TES:Skyrim LE, and what struck me was the fact, that I absolutely could've lived without any character-progression at all, but rather have your character setup in the beginning (applying skillpoints into talents you want to play with) and then only have some slight item-progression of maybe 20% stronger then the starter-gear. Especially TES:Skyrim would've totally profited from this kind of system.

    Back in the days when I was playing Pen&Paper RPGs, there was this awesome title of Shadowrun, where you didn't have any character-progression at all, but only some variation in equipment and the possibility to enhance your character with implants, which came with drawbacks.

    Would you play a MMORPG, where there wouldn't be any character-progression, but only some little variation in item-strength. There would be a gazillion of different skins however, so that you could make your character look like noone else.

    The reason to play a MMORPG for me is the RPG-part, and this doesn't require any character-progression, and it would make balancing the game way easier to start with aswell.
    In addition, instead of making a skill- or level-system the devs could spend way more time in creating content.

    I only played a little bit of shadowrun back in the late 80s but I seem to remember you earned points that you spent on character improvement.  That is progression/advancement.  Perhaps I am remembering the game wrong or you are playing a new edition that doesn't have that...

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dauntis

    Well generally when I play an rpg, especially an mmorpg, my goal for my character is to survive. I do so by becoming increasingly more powerful and wealthy so that I can defend myself better. So if I played a game with no progression no levels, skills or equipment upgrades and I am as powerful as I will ever be from the moment I log in... then really the best thing I could do to ensure my characters survival would be logging right back off. So really better yet, never buy the game.

     

    No... no sir... I believe a game like this would not even appeal to the nicheist of niches. I mean, hell, you even have level progression in real life, why would you think removing it from a game would be a good idea?

     

    Well, seems the OP has other ideas about character progression then we do,  tough i think he might find some very very old shooters withouth any progression... Noe RPG´s however. 

     

    Actually i doubt if he understands the meaning of progression at all

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yalexy

     


    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by Yalexy  

    Originally posted by rojo6934 no. I dont want less features in my mmorpg.  I want more. Taking features out (or leaving good features out in exchange of other stuff) only affects the game negatively and im not wasting money or time on empty virtual worlds. EDIT: im ok not having levels, but character progression is not limited to leveling an exp bar and going up a number.
      There wouldn't be less features actually. You just wouldn't need to level up first or otherwise improve character-skills. Look at Skyrim for example and let's say you're given 60 skill-perks at charcter-creation to build your character the way you want. This wouldn't take anything away from the game imho.
    i would prefer that same example but without the 60 skill perks at the beginning. Instead i just earn them by doing any tipe of content, even crafting. Instead of having numbers on my character to level up. As i keep gaining points to improve my character by just playing the game it still feels like i am progressing while my character gets stronger and stills remains with zero levels. TSW tried this but did it wrong, instead they put the levels on the skills so its basically on the same boat as a character level based game unlocking skills on a linear chain and with an exp bar.

     

    Why would you need to get your character stronger over time? It has nothing to do with roleplaying actually.

    There's tons of games without character-progression, like Battlefield for example and they still have a campaign to play through and you can only somewhat tweak your equipment.

    Leveling up, be it character-level or skills allways leads to the fact, that there'll be content you can't access right away, requiring you to grind your way up first, and that's exactly the thing I hate the most.

    I played EvE Online for 7 years, because you could take part in the universe right away, even if you just started playing the game. And yes, even in a Rifter you were a valuable asset, if you listened to the veterans and did what they wanted you to do.
    No better memories really than flying in a fleet a week after joining EvE, flying a Slacher equipped with nothing but a MWD and a warp-disruptor :p

    I know what you mean, and i agree with you. But you do not suggest a system without progression, but much more a progression system with less power progression, to reduce the power gap between veteran and newbie players, like in EvE and like in UO. Hell even Battlfield 2+ do have a progression system.. just with a reduced or no power progression at all. The key here is more horizontal and less vertical progression.

    Edit/PS: And by the way, the same is true with your example of the Shadowrun Pen & Paper Ruleset. You do have a very sophisticated progression system, but it is a lot more horizontal and overall very less vertical.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,765Member Uncommon

    Without progression it's not an RPG.  So it'd be impossible to play a MMORPG without progression.

    Which isn't a problem for me personally, since I play plenty of non-RPGs.  But I do find it's rare that making non-RPGs into an MMO works, as opposed to singleplayer or small-scale multiplayer.  It's very rare that being an MMO adds enough to a game to justify the disadvantages.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
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  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Not only no but hell no.  Remove Leveling or character progression and you remove one of the core tenets of an RPG.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

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